Bitcoin Forum

A Guilty Verdict In Silk Road Case Could Doom Internet Freedoms

http://www.mintpressnews.com/a-guilty-verdict-in-silk-road-case-could-doom-internet-freedoms/193886/

...especially the freedom of online drug traffickers and dealers

why don't we just arrest Richard Nixon?  He was the one that started this blasted drug mess

haha, please

if that 'dooms internet freedoms', what did UIGEA do?  was it like hiroshima?

If you break the law you will probably be charged and tried. That has very little to do with internet freedom.

He needs to argue that the WIPO agreement puts cyberspace into its own jurisdiction

No government owns cyberspace so no crime can come under its jurisdiction if you wrap WIPO around yourself

By treaty every nato country makes WIPO paramount to its constitution

So get the best jurisdiction team ever assembled, pay them with bitcoin and say cyberspace is cyberspace it doesn't really exist in theory

If anything he was a FORUM OPERATOR and did not one drug deal, so 100% innocent of drug dealing

The FORUM is protected as FREE SPEECH under US Constitution and it's cyberspace under wipo rules not US rules

The net is not regulated and while banks have bootstrapped themselves into the net, no one gov owns the net and anything done there should be tried in an international court not a US Fed court IMO

So what he was the ebay of drugs on the net, so what, show me one person he physically gave one drug to, they don't exist

Now taking bitcoin for it, so what, who regulates bitcoin, again NO JURISDICTION

So I hope he walks

You arrest the drug dealers in each transaction not the forum operator

JURISDICTION is the ultimate issue in that case and his mistake was residing in the USA where the feds could put silver bracelets on him

Had he been in the Cayman Islands he would still be running Silk Road

So he made one major mistake residence in the USA

Did he launder the money to any US banks?

Not that I heard

So he kept an unregulated fiat currency that is not under the jurisdiction of money laundering laws

He needs to get the guy wearing a dress (the judge) recused and move the case to an international court

Fortunately for us, close to 100% of the charges that government prosecutors charge us with are code violations, not breaking laws.

Unfortunately for us, most of us don't realize that attorneys can't speak in court - except where they are first-hand witnesses to a fact - if we hold the court to using common law.

See: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=699076.msg7901846#msg7901846.

:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communications_Decency_Act

Still waiting for Craig Newmark and Alexis Ohanian to go to prison.  ::)

I don't think it would doom the internet, but rather give mods an incentive to not allow illegal things to happen on their websites

OH, horseshit.

Yep our new forums that have bitcoin areas say report to the mod anything illegal which we define as drugs and child porn but also say or other stuff you think shouldn't be in our forum.

Since it has no monetizing aspects to the forum at all, it's just a free speech site, you interested in bitcoin, ok discuss and trade here caveat emptor

If you see anything illegal like drugs or child porn please report to the forum

If you do engage in trade try to use an escrow company for anything of value over X dollars and report any bad traders to get them flagged

We like freedom of speech, operated forums to discuss stuff for years, but you have to put in now report anything illegal to protect yourself as a forum operator

It probably won't. Basically this is another setback for Bitcoin but not game-ending. I'd be more worried about this whole Net Neutrality thing myself.

Of course, if you agree with a court, they can run all over anything that you say, 'cause you let them.

:)

This case is not about Internet freedom and it never was.

That's just something Ross's lawyer is pushing so donations will come in and he will get paid.

DPR (who is allegedly Ross) conspired to commit federal crimes. That is different from criminals using a service (like eBay or craigslist) where the service is not trying to provide a safe harbor for crime.

Whether or not you agree with the drug laws isn't the issue. The issue is DPR conspired to break them.

Separate yourself from the widget being sold.

If it was a child porn ring, you (hopefully) would want him busted even if he never personally bought/sold child porn.

Well you can't have your cake and eat it too. The laws that are needed to bust those conspiring crimes you don't like are applicable to any crime.

Change the drug laws, don't try and pretend this is a case about Internet Freedom, because I for one don't want anyone to have the "freedom" to create a marketplace for certain things (like child pornography or hitmen or ...) and not be charged.

The drug laws need to be changed, but those conspiring to commit crimes are not immune from prosecution just because the conspiring took place over the Internet.

DPR got caught. He was an opsec fucktard, and if he did try to pay for hits (I believe he did) then he is a danger to society.

Aaron Schwartz - he's a hero I can get behind.
Ross Ulbricht - he appears to be nothing more than a common thug, possibly a sociopath given his ability to hide among normal society while living a double life (which is documented - it's documented he experimented with drugs a lot in high school. yet he was an Eagle Scout - double life was nothing new to him)

I hear that a lot.

Truth is had been anywhere but the United States, he would have stuck out as an American. Unless he had a really good reason to be there, that would have made him an instant target to watch.

It's best to operate these things from the country where you can blend in the easiest. Generally that's the country in which you were raised.

Agreed. The laws he is alleged to have violated are what they are. I disagree with prohibition but that doe snot make me immune to prosecution under those laws.

Alice, you are pretty much spot on. I have to agree with almost everything you said.

IMO, I don't believe that it is a setback for Bitcoin. On the other hand, closing down of sites such as BMR and SR can be positive for Bitcoin. Already Bitcoin is suffering from a great deal of negative PR, due to its link with various dark markets.

Yeah I know -- I meant setback in terms of bad publicity because of a few high-profile bad actors. That's the problem with anything that's new. You usually get the people who look edgewise at it and wonder if it's going to stick around, and then they find out that there's a lot of black-market stuff going on with cryptocurrencies.

It does if your written notice prior to trial, converts the complaints into claims against the individuals, personally, who are claiming you did something wrong.

Your claim in your notice converts the court into a common law court, your court, under your rules, if you STAND AS A MAN (or WOMAN). Then it is man against man, human being against human being. Your notice must require that they show you the damages done to any human from your involvement. And, they are required to have first hand knowledge of it. This is basic. If they can't show harm or damages (REAL HARM OR DAMAGE TO SOME HUMAN BEING THAT CAN BE DIRECTLY ATTRIBUTED TO YOU - CORPUS DELICTI) by their verbal testimony under oath, THEY are the ones who will have to pay via their bond or insurance (PROVIDED THAT YOU HAVE STATED SUCH IN YOUR ORIGINAL NOTICE TO THE COURT). At this point they will not be able to become bonded again, and may lose their government job.

This is standard common law operation. And it is what the whole United States is based on. But you need to claim it, and use it, and NOT deviate from it. NOT your attorneys. You need to stand up as a man in court! But if they don't let you, their judgments are void judgments that you can attack and destroy any time thereafter. Standard law.

:)

Internet freedoms are disappearing day by day regardless of the case and its outcome :(

Omg the internetz will be doooomed! Lol

He was trafficking illegal drugs. I don't get how "one man breaking the law" = Internet doomed

Lol

Bitcoin gives new freedom to where freedom is being attempted to be taken away.

Bitcoin is essentially the free-market's middle finger to the current monetary system.

It would give any sensible person reason enough to not participate in the moderation of any forum or website that may come under scrutiny by any relevant authority. Fear is not in and of itself incentive to do or not do anything. Reward is much more of an incentive.

I don't want to be the mod of any forum on bitcointalk.com (not that anyone has asked) for fear of being charged with facilitating money laundering. Reasonable compensation may incentivize me to perform the duty as expected.

Say public loitering and skateboarding is illegal in a particular jurisdiction. Should the shop owner forsake providing parking space for "legal" patrons for fear of being charged with aiding and abetting the wrongdoers?

I haven't looking into the DPR/Silk Road case in any great length. I do not think the owners of craigslist.org, bitcointalk.org, ebay.com, amazon.com, reddit.com, facebook.com, Silk Road.onion, etc. should be held responsible for users' actions. It just doesn't make any sense. People commit crimes. Websites are just there for people to use and abuse.

We have enough moderation and censorship of the internet in the "free" world. Laws, as they are written, have long arms and great scope. We should be actively looking to reduce this reach rather than increase it. The children are fine. The terrorists don't really hate most of us. And, the elderly are oblivious. Let's just be allowed to live and let live.

Fixed that redundancy for you, and I concur.

Concerns about lawmakers setting regulations for the darkweb does concern me.
Not so much sympathy for ross but I am afraid of the implications this case could have on the legal system.

According to the website, the campaign is run by “a coalition of individuals, organizations and businesses that believe the outcome of Ross Ulbricht’s case is tremendously important for the future of Internet freedom, user privacy and cryptocurrency regulation.”

The website goes on to say that because Ulbricht “has been unfairly portrayed as a man who planned murder,” the public hasn’t united in support for Ulbricht, which is why a crowdfunding campaign is necessary for a legal defense fund.

Groups like the Free Ross Ulbricht legal defense fund, which was started by his mother, Lyn Ulbricht, argue that this case needs so much attention and financial support from the public because it “will set precedent for the 21st century and pave the way for new law and interpretations that could impact the future and freedom of the Internet.”

___

“This case will pave the way for new laws and new interpretations of law,” said Lyn Ulbricht, adding that her son’s attorney, Dratel, has also argued that the U.S. government will likely point to this case, as they have with other high-profile cases, as a reason why Congress needs to pass “draconian legislation.”

“Laws will be made based on the Silk Road case” that will likely impede Internet autonomy and privacy, Lyn Ulbricht said, adding that the addition of virtual currencies like bitcoin to the list of currencies that must follow rules and regulations designed for legal currencies defeats the entire purpose of bitcoin operating as an anonymous cryptocurrency.

So there is something at stake here for Bitcoiners as Jeff said in those comments Collective punishment is never the correct answer.

Legalize marijuana and cocaine and none of this will happen.

Yep and if you live in NY, you should already be arrested by now.   

Seems like that does have something to do with freedom....when you are rotting in a jail sell for selling .05 BTC to someone and you failed to get their SSN and verify their address.

It has everything to do with Internet freedom. Internet freedom is PEOPLE freedom. And the question isn't about breaking the law. The question is a code violation, although they make it look like it is breaking a law. So, it is a small group of people - government - against the rest of the people. Which freedom will win? The freedom of the governmental people to enslave us, or our freedom to resist the government people?

Most of the time when you are charged by some governmental agency, it is for a code violation. Somebody in government made a code that you didn't agree to and maybe don't know about. What does that have to do with you except when you agree to it?

Common law has to do with harm and damage, and what the jurors in the area might think that the law is when they bring in a verdict.

Most jurors don't realize that they have the total right to judge the law as invalid, just like they judge the defendant innocent or guilty. Despite what the judge says to them, if they decide that a code violation, or even a law, is inappropriate, they can strike down the law or code by their verdict. They have the right and duty to judge the law, but mostly they don't know it.

:)

The difference is DPR conspired with the people making crimes and even had his staff knowingly participate in the deals by settling seller/buyer disputes.
The product DPR sold was a place where these illegal activities could take place designed as a place these illegal activities could take place.
And he actively sought both sellers and buyers.

That is called conspiracy to commit a crime and is vastly different than, say, me offering blowjobs on craigslist (I don't, btw) - craigslist wouldn't be conspiring with me to break prostitution laws, and I would be in violation of their policy.

DPR not only allowed the illegal activity, he sought it and intentionally helped them hide their illegal activity from law enforcement.

putting silkroad in that list is like putting a watermelon in a box of strawberries. It doesn't fit.

Marijuana is being legalized all around the world. But I don't think that the same will happen with Cocaine. Portugal is an exception, but none of the other countries are going to follow their example. The Cocaine business is worth more than $100 billion USD every year, and many of the most powerful cartels and organizations survive on it.

This is true. All of the above sites have policies that attempt to limit illegal activity on their sites, although they cannot police their site 100%.

SR on the other hand encouraged illegal activity to take place and advertised itself as a place for illegal activity.

Then more reason to legalize cocaine than marijuana.

I disagree about this. Cocaine is a very hard drug that can really mess a person up and is very easy to get addicted to.

Weed on the other hand is much less addictive and generally will not kill you.

Walk into any federal court and claim that. After they finish laughing at you they might hold you in contempt, but trust me they will get their conviction if the evidence supports their assertions.

I agree with your common law idea in spirit, but this guy allegedley knowingly assisted in criminial conspiraces and violated the law of the land. If he is guilty he will do serious time. Principals do not excuse us from following laws or even codes. I agree that reforms are needed but this guy isn't just some dumb kid that got caught up with the wrong people and didn't know that what he was doing was wrong.

It is extremely rare that a jury will strike down a law like this. Both the prosecutor and the defense will attempt to exclude people from the jury pool who are not willing to carry out the law as it is written.

no , it has nothing to do with internet freedoms. as an American, he has to follow the laws. he facilitated illegal activity whether people want to see that or not.

I'm quite sure there are many dealers working P2P then ever, exercising their "freedoms". the risk of course, is losing your other more tangible freedoms in the process.

DPR knew the risks, he didn't protect himself properly, then went on to try and commit further crimes to button up. He was willing to take lives for his profit, not for internet freedoms.

I'll have my book out soon which will cover the various aspects of internet privacy and money laundering.

"Groups like the Free Ross Ulbricht legal defense fund, which was started by his mother, Lyn Ulbricht, argue that this case needs so much attention and financial support from the public because it 'will set precedent for the 21st century and pave the way for new law and interpretations that could impact the future and freedom of the Internet.'"

Oh, well his mother said it so it must be true.