Bitcoin Forum

BTC is becoming peace of shit ultra regulated currency like USD, YEN, etc. and I don't like it. Probably true crypto believers will abandoned BTC soon if not even sooner:

http://www.businessinsider.com/nydfs-bitlicense-draft-2014-7

what did you expect? you thought BTC would fly under the radar forever and there would be no regulations around it?

well that wasn't very realistic.

Bottom line: It applies to exchanges and services like Bitpay. And it seems to only apply to New York companies. (Does it apply to companies with customers in New York?)

"First they ignore you,
then they laugh at you,
then they fight you,
then you win."
-Gandhi

There is nothing that will force businesses to obtain these liscenses.

As long as you can remain somewhat secretive, you can beat them out. It can't be regulated. The decentralization confirms that.

Plus that's New York, not the entire world. Why did California legalise it with no regulations...?

One government doing something doesn't affect the rest.

Tell me how it can become a
When they can't regulate it fully?

If necessary, people will jump to coins like XMR, LTC, DRK (Maybe), VER, the list goes on with established coins.

They're fighting us, but they'll have a hard time winning. If we hold out long enough, they'll have to give up.

Does anyone agree?

Decentralized exchanges is the answer.

The (proposed) regulation does not mention Bitcoin or BTC by name. It uses the term "Virtual Currency". So if a "true crypto believer" abandons BTC, the next crypto will still be covered by this regulation.

Also, the (proposed) regulation specifically says that miners (as well as merchants, mentioned earlier) are not required to obtain a license.

I really don't see how this has any negative.

I think regulating exchanges is inevitable. But it is a good thing in some ways. At least the exchanges will be monitored and audited, so we will not have another gox meltdown.

this is the start of mainstream BTC

Guys as BTC became mainstream everyone who trully loves crypto will go under radar on tor network and darknet and use XC, darkcoin and other privacy based coins..

I'm not sure why you think this is a bad thing.

In order for the price of BTC to go to the moon like most people hope it will, it needs to be an ultra regulated currency so grandma can use to it pay for groceries at the supermarket.

BTC is never going to go mainstream, and the price will never go to the moon, without significant regulation.

True "crypto" believers have little impact on the price. Right now, the focus needs to be on getting the average Joe to use BTC.

agreed but i think the title of the post is wrong. should read "middle of the end..." the begining of the end was when asics hit mainstream. and for a libertarian utopia "coin" it sure is hard to get any without revealing your identity or risking your money to some asshole who wants you to "Send First" so he can make a fucking 15 percent commission for sitting on ass and being a general fuck twat.

dont even get me started on "bitcoin atms" with their biometric sensors, handprint scanners, and gov id verifications. bitcoin should be renamed to "beastcoin" (as is "mark of the").

i havent even mentioned price stability (since it completely lacks it). now that i think about it, bitcoin is currently more of a pain in the ass to deal with than ANY OTHER means of exchange presently in existence. now the fanboys can jump in and start sucking each other off, hoping to prop up this overvalued piece of shit so a GREATER FOOL can come take it off their hands, enriching them in the process.

Don't be so sure that  that is the purpose of this act

+1000

Is it really necessary to stay under the radar.  Do you feel like your rights are violated SOOOOO much that you spend excessive time using Tor ir i2p or freenet?  I tried them out and honestly the deep web has been an underwhelming waay overrated experience.  I want BTC to go mainstream because I'd like to see everyone pass on the savings of using BTC with lower pricing (yes a pipe dream probably not going to happen)  and I want to see companies give kickbacks to users who use btc over other currencies (sort of like what isis is trying to do - they feel threatened by cryptocurrency so this is an attempt to keep users incentivized to continue using consumer debt attached to high interest rates.)


Not all BTMs require you to 'sell your palm print|ID|DNA|etc'.  I think they do more good than harm because it draws attention from those who have no idea what it is and it makes those who DO know what it is smile because they see that cryptocurrency is becoming more accessible to the mainstream.

Look, a newbie who still needs to learn!

I'll go through your post bit by bit.

ASICs didn't do anything but create more jobs for R&D and manufacturers of said ASICs, help the ecosystem along, as well as providing a means to generate the coins faster (At first), providing some people with an advantage. And said Libertarian coins DO exist, just not in a utopia you're asking for. And what is this "Send First" bullcrap? Only scammers want you to do that, especially with no escrow. And said commissions are commonplace in the real world, don't claim they exist only in Bitcoin. It's the same everywhere.

Bitcoin ATMs are to exchange BTC without having to go through an entire exchange process, and so that people can sell BTC relatively on-the-go. Those sensors or scanners are there because they have to comply with legal regulations, otherwise the company gets lawsuited and disappears, something that it looks like you want. And what the hell is this "mark of the beast" crap? What ARE you smoking? Or are you just 100% clueless? I already explained, and that part is so filled with crap it amazes me.

Volatility is good for the market, proven time and time again because people like you keep making the same dumbass statement. It's only a pain in the ass if you want it to be, otherwise it is pretty simple. I've done it, wasn't a pain for me. Or are you under 18/21?

Read through the forum and learn about BTC, not make retarded claims. And go back to school and learn grammar (Or grammer, depends on where you live), it started to hurt my eyes.

Chiming in on What he said ^^^ without volatility we would be stuck with some stable crap number that no one wants - imagine its 2017 and BTC value is still at .40 cents.  Those said ASICS would not exist and likely neither would coinbase|bitpay.  

For that matter most of the alts would ceast to exist as well   :P

People have interesting definitions for decentralization. Bit coin will be subjected to regulations for a time because we tend to abide by regulations. No one ever promised other wise. The key difference from fiat is that it cannot be artificially inflated by anyone. That is the fundamental difference and it is a crucial one. You can't have mass adoption with out governments attempting to regulate.

Just wanna to say...wish you all the luck ...see ya on the other side of net

@ frankenmint: volatility is good if youre a trader agreed. but as has been stated here and elsewhere btc is supposed to be a digital currency. currency needs stability for it to be taken seriously. lets say i sell you a tv for $300. then a week later that $300 will now only buy me 2/3 of the same tv ($200). would i want to transact in btc? or would btc only be useful as a means to acquire currency (USD). and im aware of the issues with fiat, but we all still use it so please...

@ron popeil: because btc is traded it is by its nature able to be inflated and deflated artificially everyday, the same as stocks, fiat, etc... tell me with certainty the btc exchanges are not manipulated by whales in any way. the market cap for btc is so ridiculously small it would be trivial for a small group of wealthy investors to manipulate it.

@yakamota:  :D :D :D not smokin anything mate. just making a point, which i made, effectively. thanks for the obligatory grammar nazism which seems so prevalent on the net however, im sure ill do something about that... eventually

Volatility doesn't change a currencies' ability to be taken seriously. Bitcoin is already taken seriously, and it's still pretty volatile. Everyone who doesn't like Bitcoin is actually quite scared about it now.

And you didn't exactly make a point, it had little evidence and simple to disprove, but I'll ignore that. You're still learning, and it's understandable.

Grammar is common on the network because some people actually think that the net shouldn't be a haven for poor... Everything, and that it should be an equivalent to real life in terms of correctness. I'm one of those people...
Just pointing that out.  :)

It saddens me to see this bureaucratic madness unfold.

But I'm not without hope:

1. These bureaucratists think that the dollar is the state of the art and the measure of all wealth. They will be proven wrong by bitcoin. One day nobody wants to convert to fiat anymore.

2. If NY has bitcoin-hostile regulations, bitcoin business will relocate to more friendly states. Then they'll have to face the economic consequences of their shortsightedness.

Most likely scenario would be those who want to remain under radar will move to another coin with anon feature.

If you don't want regulation ... use localbitcoin or mycelium market.
2 tools to sell and buy BTC localy.

regulation only work on the exchange (pro exchange ... with ID verification).

Literally anything in the economy that has a decent sized market cap will be scrutinized by the government and eventually regulated.  It is just the nature of the world unfortunately.  

This by no means is the end for BTC though.

Yes, I generally agree that coins that offer better privacy will gain market share in future. However that would not help in this case, because it's the fiat-bitcoin link they're aiming at.

Of cause any improvement in privacy for bitcoin would be great.

LoLz ...I pitty for the New Yorkers. There will always be some corner on the earth, where Bitcoin will remain unregulated. Companies will set up there and US will lose control ;)

The once leader of free market is now trying to control its own weapon :D

Bitcoin island!

See! Everyone follow this man's advice and start pooling your BTC so we can go and live on a large island in the middle of the ocean, set up a full-on crypto society and thrive away from the regulations!

Tbh, it's not necessarily a bad idea. I'd stay on the mainland, however, and support the island via contributions or a middle-man for sending over commodities and so...

Someone's probably thinking about it now...

Yes, people can't ban Bitcoins, inflate, or stop them from being made.

Very regulated, however. Ultra regulated.

These regulations are a product of bitcoin success. No one tries to regulate something that isn't a major factor in economics. Expect more and more of this as bitcoin grows. Knowing the regulatory climate of New York this could have been far more invasive.

This is a good day for bit coin. 

It's definitely a fine line between sticking to the core values and gaining some sort of legal footing (i.e. draconian legitimacy). I don't necessarily think we've crossed that line since this is only dealing with processors and exchangers (the way I interpret it, it doesn't affect "bartering" with bitcoins); however, with a few tweaks we'll be perilously close to that line and could very easily cross it.

No this is not the END of BTC. This is the beginning of BTC.
Stop spreading pointless FUD. It had to become regulated at some point.

Just because you have accustomed yourself to the worst doesn't make the evil more enchanting. That's slave-think.

It's not a good day for bitcoin. But bitcoin has the power to overcome these brainless acts of bureaucratically enforced arbitrariness. Bitcoin can do much better for the whole society without those backwards-minded regulation mongers.

Just to point out how poorly written the regulations are:

The bitcoin tip-bot on Reddit would fall under this regulation if it allowed users to tip people that reside in New York (or if the operator itself was in New York).

Well,all those assholes outhere advocated for "regulation" (Which of course defeats the purpose!) and now they've got it.

DUMB motherfuckers!

Assholes, anyway.

Do you think that NY was waiting for someone to advocate regulation?  Governments regulate.  That is what they do, that is all they do.  They will never ever stop.

Yes but most of the Bitcoin people bend over for them!

Well Gavin has mentioned this a few times that some of the believers will move onto something else
It probably will occur or is occurring as viable alternatives are appearing.

Part of its growth stage where he said there are only so many cryto anarchists and Bitcoin will start to grow up.

From what I can tell this would only apply to exchanges and businesses that process bitcoin on behalf of others (like bitpay and coinbase).

I don't think this would actually apply to, for example the coffee shop that accept bitcoin for payment.

You do realize that the regulations are about business using virtual currency that falls within the scope, not Bitcoin by name.  If one doesn't intend to comply with the regulations they can not comply while using Bitcoin instead of something new.  If they do intend to comply with the regulations than using something new doesn't really change anything either.

These regs will cover the exchanges, etc that deal in your "anon" coin too.

If you want privacy just move some coins to a new address, away from your ID linked addresses, and boom, who's to say you didn't sell them?

You haven't checked the latest IRS regs, have you?

That's what I thought!

SHhh you're talking too much sense, let these idiotic noobs have their drama.

Stick to "seeking justice from BFL" because you're making yourself a dumb fck here.

For better or worse, bitcoin is different things to different people  ;D

The big end of town will probably "welcome" these regs, gives them a framework to operate in. This will open the door for more institutional money to pour in.

The entrepreneurs / start ups wont like this, especially underfunded ones. They'll move somewhere else more forgiving. This place will become bitcoin silicon valley. It will probably not be in the US, although Cali may give it a go, the Delaware of Bitcoin.

People who value privacy and love the true nature of bitcoin will stay the f@ck away from US regulated economy but like everything else, they will find a loophole. This may very well be the rest of the world. Bittorrent still exists as will bitcoin. There will also be a bitcoin Cayman Islands. There will be a Decentralised Bitcoin Exchange.

Bitcoin is the Honey Badger. It will adapt but it will also stay the same, depends on what path you want to take.

Be interesting to see the amendments come out in 45 (more like 90) days time.

And a good evening to you!

You must be one of those pro-government types living off the dole who actually believes that the government is there to help you.

There is no medication but there is education available.

If regulation is what separates us from the US Dollar, you are not understanding the fully idea of Bitcoin.  is that it is not American Dollars.  which is great for other countries

So the "idea of Bitcoin" is...........................?

Agree 100%

One of the things that Bitcoin did was, it gave us a breather. At least those of us in the United States, Canada and the United Kingdom. Here's what I mean.

It has ALWAYS been the intent of some people to control and regulate all the rest of us. They use government to do it as much as they can. But consider. If they could have made us all slaves, they would have done it long ago. And they have, in some ways.

Bitcoin is something that they didn't expect. Bitcoin is a contingency that they didn't plan for. Bitcoin is a quirk that is causing THEM to have to do more of the ONE MAJOR THING that they have been doing all along to control us. This thing is to make us think that they have the right to regulate us. Notice, I said regulate US. Not regulate Bitcoin.

It isn't Bitcoin that they have to regulate. It is US that they have to regulate if they want the control and the centralization. They are using what they call Bitcoin regulation to take our focus off the ways that they are regulating US. They are doing it by keeping our focus on these so called Bitcoin regulation ideas and attempts.

I'm telling you, if you want to get out from their regulation, if you want to be and remain free, you really need to fill yourselves on the things that Karl Lentz and Richard Cornforth say. You won't understand it overnight, even though it is simple. It's just a concept that most of us have so little training in that it is almost foreign to us. It's called "common law," and the United States, Canada and the United Kingdom are built on it.

Here's your start. Peruse this website: http://voidjudgments.com/.

Then watch and listen to these 3 Richard Cornforth seminar videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8MAQEJZbuY&list=PL8EWUTdkthJQjU6nhTTvzcgJjHLRX-TWP.

Finally, fill yourself on everything you can, that Karl Lentz has to say here: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5duR4OvEHHxOSdEZhANETw. Karl is a little difficult to understand. And at times he seems to be ambiguous. But be patient, and take the time that it takes to understand what he is getting at in these audios. Then look him up wherever else you can find him.

Bitcoin and centralization or decentralization doesn't mean a thing as long as PEOPLE are under the control of governments, as long as the PEOPLE are not free, as long as the people are stupid enough to remain unenlightened about the fact that it is THEY that are centralized.

:)

Nice post!

+1

"Piece"?

Of what?

"Peace".

I have to admit my first reaction in my head was panic they are killing Bitcoin.  But that was just a split second reaction.  Some other people don't seem to have gotten out of the panic phase yet.  I you want to do business There with BTC then you forfiet your privacy, simple...  Nothing mentioned in the regulations about the end of Bitcoin...   ::)

-..to have a money system that is not under government control, i.e sound money.

Thank you very much for this post.

This is my thought exactly. Most people aren't willing to get into BTC yet BECAUSE it has little regulation still. This will make people feel safer.

Eat your own words when you're trying to sue BFL ok dumb fck?

I love it when these anarchist cry about being scammed and ask government to help them.

This is crazy. I hope other states don't follow. This is the exact opposite of what we want.
How would they control it anyway? How would they know who is sending what? I just
don't see this working. If the people don't come forward there's no way for them to know.

http://www.wired.com/2014/07/ny_bitcoin/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2aycxs/hi_this_is_ben_lawsky_at_nydfs_here_are_the/

http://www.dfs.ny.gov/about/press2014/pr1407171-vc.pdf

No it isn't really crazy at all. It is the state of New York, one of the most heavy handed regulatory environments in the US. This really only has meaning if you are a business in NY that wants to use bitcoin.

Other states will follow. Bitcoin is getting bigger and they are noticing. Generally states that over regulate will do so and the ones that don't won't.

The draft NY regulations are following the classic negotiating strategy of demanding everything, later conceding a few things, then eventually getting more than originally expected. Most (all?) of the feedback will want to rein in the original proposals. The real news will be how much this document is watered down before the final version appears in a few months.

As other posters have pointed out, Bitcoin will not go to the moon without a regulatory framework which major companies feel they can work within. If the regulations are too harsh and stupid then NY will definitely lose the digital currency initiative to many other more appealing jurisdictions: California, Texas, or Europe etc.

Who are they negotiating with?

hope so

Anyone who submits a formal comment about the proposals on the NYS Register site.

+1 Agreed 100%, exactly the same feelings here.

Eth.

I predict 10k$ by late 2015/early 2016.

Regulation coronates bitcoin.

The other way around. Regulation will kill bitcoin.

thinks, I'm looking for the pdf http://www.dfs.ny.gov/about/press2014/pr1407171-vc.pdf

Would you say that there are three things in this life that are certain? Death, taxes and governments regulating?

Only death is certain for now. There are ways to get around tax and regulation.

Yes, I agree, it's doomed. You should sell me all your BTC, for cheap, before the crash comes!

PM me, I'll give you great deal in super-trustworthy and definitely-not-going-to-crash-EVER US dollars for all your soon-to-be-worthless BTC.

Hurry, before it's too late!

Im aware that this is the State of New York, and how regulated everything there is. We'll see how it turns out. They are always the ones to jump on some new regulation that they feel will make the world a better place. When in reality they just take more and more freedoms away.

It really isn't a big deal. It is just making exchanges safer for consumers. The NYC regulations will not affect businesses that simply accept bitcoin.

Just relax and take a cup of tea. All it is about is just an agony of dying US economics. Childish trial of a Liliput N.Y. government supervise all world by a computer. Wish them a lot of luck.

Very good news for Bitcoin. We all are waiting for the oportunity to buy your BTC cheaper. javascript:void(0);;)

That is the part everyone seems to be missing. The capital requirements etc. applies to exchanges. Not business that simply transact in bitcoin. Even for New York residents there are ways around the regulated exchanges.  

The government no longer trusts its own people to hold money. You can't buy $1 of bitcoin without them knowing who you are and where you live. Dark times. There's a light at the end of this tunnel though.

Regulation is no bad thing or risk for bitcoin. Companies need to know the legal frameworks and rules before they want to get involved with bitcoin. At least the 'regular' companies who don't necessarily like to be some kind of early adopter and only bet on the outcome of bitcoin being a universally successful currency! Thus they wait until regulations are in place. Regulations also pose as a certain acceptance issued by the state!

Well, it's not preferred that it is regulated in this manner, but your point is correct. Companies want a legal guide, as they aren't interested in destroying their business over a digital currency.

I don't want a bunch of licenses being required for BTC. Addresses also change so frequently that it is not even worth having to write down every address you own.

If there are stricter regulations put in place, I'll hold some of my BTC but use other cryptos for other transactions.

It is a train.
Believing victory will just arrive if we wait it out is a good way to get your ass flattened

Then what do you recommend we do?

We won't go to arms over a crypto currency, it's not worth it. So far waiting it out hasn't been bad for the community, in fact, it's been more successful than most people would have thought. With Dell, Overstock, TigerDirect, and other large companies already accepting, without a ton of requests, it's been really good to us.

This "train" is set to derail. It will be getting through the wreckage that will be the hard part.

Victory absolutely will arrive if we just wait it out. The cat is out of the bag. They can regulate it here but it will just flourish somewhere else until they have no choice but to be more accommodating. This is evolution and it is inevitable

The Vinklevoss twins like the regulation, but that could just be the beginning of regulative capture http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/regulatory-capture.asp (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/regulatory-capture.asp). The effects are creating a barrier to entry, and a tendency to vertical integration, both a detriment to newcomers and to the public.

"China can't blockade the internet, it'll flourish elsewhere and they'll have no choice but to be more accommodating". That'll be why the UK got its own firewall? Negative ideas can spread just as easily as positive ones and you have enough money, enough press and enough bullets you can put any cat back into the bag. THINK OF THE KIDS. Job done.

The average person dies less than 30 miles from where they are born.

The idea that people will move if the place gets shitty, especially in some particularly minor way like this(relatively speaking) is baseless crap. While the idea may exist elsewhere it can die out in places and given Bitcoin has the advantage of being global without the bullshit of banking that hurts the cause.

I'm sorry but if this experiment is to win out action is ABSOLUTELY required.

There are countless ways to derail Bitcoin - you can make it hard to spend - ID laws for money you hand over or make it too expensive too early so its mostly owned and controlled by a tiny few just like every other currency, hard to obtain - ID laws et all for money you receive.

They can leave the Bitcoin protocol running and cripple it so much in the execution that all the freedoms are lost. If you know where enough of the money is it becomes useless as an anonymous currency too.
Bitcoin stays worth money as long as more and more large companies keep accepting it; that can all go away with a few laws, a few regulations...

There is no more effective way to spy on the subjects than the internet, so it will persevere.

When you look at the entire landscape, when you acknowledge the NSA's evil, the technology they have and how it could be used combined with the other areas of the government and how little they've acted to curtail the NSA in any reasonable manner, this is not a won war - the other side has been building tanks while we've been making bunting. If you think everyone can wait it out you're going to be disappointed.

Hell, if I was the government's advisor on defeating Bitcoin, I'd hire people to spread the message the government is losing and the storm can be weathered without further effort. This could easily be dollar 2.0 with all of the disadvantages and then some.
Bitcoin can succeed as money and yet the revolution it promised could still fail - the value of Bitcoin is our biggest blackeye. We let greed take over.

There's a massive opportunity cost to not adopting bitcoin / cryptocurrencies. It seems like the US is aware of this. They could pass a couple laws and cripple it here but it's going to keep proliferating elsewhere and we would ultimately just fall behind, so it's looking like they're not going to do that. They're just going to try to keep tabs on every transaction in order to "protect us."

Ultimately your post revolves around a single premise - that the USA will stand alone with these measures and they won't spread. When the home of the NSYE becomes the largest home of Bitcoin financial services other people will follow those rules for their own convenience.

The people opening these large companies by definition will be the super rich; the things that put you off don't even make their radar and they will use that money and power to leverage INFLUENCE, especially when they stand to make a profit.

The KYC stuff is a ball ache in normal currencies, they deal with it by having roughly similar rules everywhere.

You think the American government can bug the German Chancellor's phone but can't get some "me too's" on some laws that will be good for the governments of lots of countries? You think there are many countries that want to lose control over inflation and the creation of currency?

You kill something and people turn up to the funeral asking about the cause of death - they will Weekend At Bernies this thing.
There will be a currency, it will be called Bitcoin, it will be completely incompatible with the founding principles of what you call Bitcoin today - it'll just be another currency under someone's control that isn't yours.

This is it - The Governments VS the Governed.

Not a specific government versus their own people, but all governments and all people - they aren't going to create competitive advantages in other countries except in instances where it won't cause a really significant mass exodus. Token differences.
They are going to cooperate with each other because Bitcoin is the start of the end for them; as soon as we do one thing well without them we'll start trying to do more and more until we don't need them. If they haven't acted to corrupt the ideals of Bitcoin yet it is because they have not fully understood it, once they do they will not play nicely.

I guess we just fundamentally disagree. Bitcoin will always exist no matter how anybody tries to stomp it out. It's a revolution, but it's an organically occurring economic revolution. No pitchforks necessary.

All they can do is slow down the inevitable. They can make laws but they can't spread them to every single country with internet. They can launch their own version but it won't be able to compete.

Who cares about pitchforks? I think you fundamentally understand the weapons with which this war will be fought and what the sides are - Bitcoin won't flourish outside of America because America won't be acting alone. The KYC laws are similar in many countries for the exact same reason Bitcoin's regulations will be similar everywhere. Watch the legal fluff accumulate, watch the barriers to entry rise, watch the laws be applied to the Bitcoin Foundation's members and used to influence who gets control of the reference client. This is a war of ideals, information(fought against an enemy that records our every email, every call and every forum post no less) and sustained effort - as soon as you stop correcting the lies people start believing them.

If the truth is inconvenient you just need to repeat a story long enough to get people to believe it - have you seen Fox News?

If you think continued existence is okay - Bitcoin will be a corpse on life support so people can say "it exists".

Just because there will always be something called "Bitcoin", doesn't mean they can't kill the revolution separately.

There are so many people that haven't heard of Bitcoin or that barely understand it that it or frankly care about the money and not the ideals(and if the money stays and the ideals go, they won't give a fuck) that you could pervert it into something unrecognisable, still call it "Bitcoin" and still satisfy enough people that any complainers will be dealt with like conspiracy theorists.

The people involved in Bitcoin for the ideals are but a rounding error of the overall user base, especially since as it spreads people will pick it up because it is money, not because it once stood for something.

All we do is plug it based on the value, how much it has gone up, how much it is going to go up... so we've attracted people who care about the value and that's it. We created an army of people who only want to succeed as individuals and are more than happy to do it at the expense of everyone else on their side. They may as well be the other side.

Last years userbase will be next years fundamentalists, you'll be like the Christians who don't eat fish on Fridays except you'll spend Friday harking back to when the limit was 21 million Bitcoin...

I think you're overestimating American influence. Yes, America is a powerful country and the regulations it makes are going to have a profound impact, that does not, however, mean that other countries will follow suit.

A perfect example of this is Singapore, America tells every country that it has ties with to release the tax records(income, how much money they have in the bank, share holdings etc) of US citizens in their countries. America asks Singapore to do this and they say "go fuck yourself" and that's pretty much the end of that. And Singapore will be the financial center of the world in the future. Businesses will move away from America if it's regulations kill their business. The power is moving away from America.

you make some good points and I too have been under the impression that the system is just waiting for the right moment to let their true presence be known. but I'm not so sure about the rest of the world following in Americas footsteps when it comes to regulating. in the last 2 days, we've seen the US impose tighter sanctions against Russia, and now France, Germany, Italy, and 6 other EU countries have said they won't participate. then there's the new BRICS bank being established.

Exactly "in the last two days" - you think they won't converge over decades because they made a token gesture of disagrement on a separate issue on Tuesday?

This is money and control over the creation of money, they'll put aside their differences there because if they don't they'll lose their power to give themselves money by diluting money they already promised you the value of.

It doesn't need to be the WHOLE rest of the world, just a good number of places. Laws don't need to be identical, just similar.

They don't even need to be the exact same laws to be compatible - there just needs to be legal islands that inhibit the completely free transfer of money. Since they don't need to be exactly the same laws it won't even look like countries are cooperating with each other, it'll look like they are independently trying to protect their own interests.

"Oh, we're regulating this because of Mt Gox, we'll save you losing millions, promise..."
You have to remember - you kill the IDEALS of Bitcoin, you leave Bitcoin standing and no one knows anything happened - we aren't talking about ending Bitcoin and leaving a void, we are talking about perverting it, stringing it up and showing people it's still "fine". You have to leave people something to point at so they won't be suspicious.
It won't even look like violence.

They'll just make the laws so strict that only the existing rich (so, we're talking like 10 people from our community + everyone who got rich under the existing system) are able to achieve compliance and we'll end up with gateways run, monitored and controlled by the status quo.

It'll have all the faces of Bitcoin, we'll just be priced out of using it to influence significant change because all your Bitcoin will be tied to you and you won't be able to spend it to influence change the government isn't happy with without them knowing.
It'll be just enough there are people still happy with Bitcoin. If it happens slowly enough people won't care because Bitcoin will still be worth money. Ideals will be bought and compromised in that manner. You'll never feel like you've lost freedom, there will just be one company changing their rules here, a country changing a small law there... and it'll add up.

but there are still many uncertainties. you have to admit that Germany is a pretty big wild card. aside from the merkel wiretaps, there's the gold repatriation issue. there's the issue regarding Russian and EU oil contracts. there's countries like Singapore and Switzerland that just do their own thing.

I agree the US probably has not one ace but a whole deck of them up their sleeve, but one thing we have to acknowledge is we don't know shit about what's really going on. everything is so compartmentalized and classified, not even congress and high-ranking generals or bureaucrats like eric holder know half of the story, imo. I think it could go many different ways.

I also know it's been said tons of times around here, but if bitcoin goes too mainstream and becomes tainted, something like zerocoin is bound to pop up eventually. and if/when it fizzles out, along comes subzerocoin. and so on.

Those won't take off.
Bitcoin had people accepting it because there was no law against it and fuck it let's experiment.

Once the laws come into effect they will cover alt coins and they will make using untraceable alt coins illegal and while people may try and rebel companies will not so the places to spend it and infrastructure won't even get to where Bitcoin is now, never mind rising to where it could compete with the Bitcoin 10 years from now.

The short term politics could go anywhere - long term everyone has to leash the beast and tame it before it grows big enough to eat them.

Yeah, you're right that the regular consumer or user of bitcoin woudn't want to register his/her addresses with some entity. Too complicated and too much of a hassle. That will really hinder mainstream adoption if this becomes the law. We'll have to see how laws, regulations and guidelines adopt to be compatible with a rather new technology like bitcoin. Those laws have to consider the unique aspects of bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies.

This is why Privacy is Needed for cryptocurrencies.

These licences are total bullshit.

The purpose of Bitcoin is to free ourselves from this kind of tedious red tape and state involvement in personal finance.

Fuck the bureaucrats. This adds NOTHING to Bitcoin or its economy. Its just another source of drag that would seek to make Bitcoin no better than fiat currency after burying it in red tape.

Welp, now you understand the goal.

That is their intention.

Registering companyes is only way state can get their taxes from bitcoin, and i dont see it as bad thing. As noone can track every individual and their BTC assets (or they can but really really hard) only place where they can keep track on how much is spent and get their tax share are companies. As far as i know, paying taxes isnt big deal. BTC was not created as tax evasion tool (yes it can be used as one)....or maybe i'm wrong?

I read through all of these comments and I really don't understand the uproar. I read this as both reasonable and expected. It simply says that exchanges, brokers, and online wallet services need to have 100% BTC reserves and follow standard IRS and AML guidelines. These types of institutions are Bitcoin's intersection to the traditional finance system and these regulations are standard. This gives avenue to the liquidity that the bitcoin markets desperately need while still taking a hands off approach in the retail and consumer sectors of the bitcoin economy.

This actually is really good news.

These are essentially the same rules that apply to any business that acts as an intersection between financial institutions and the regular cash economy.

Your misconception is ridiculous.

Bitcoin is not being regulated. Bitcoin businesses are. Get that straight buddy.

What do these regulations mean for online tipping services? It would be impossible for them to know the physical addresses of parties involved in a transaction, among other things. Also, what does this mean for Distributed Autonomous Companies?

It seems to me that these regulations completely stifle the possibility of legal innovation in the financial sector with digital currencies. Please tell me I have misunderstood because my interest in Bitcoin is its potential to facilitate new types of transactions and entities like those I listed above that are impossible with fiat currencies.

"Well, good news! My business just dissolved into a bunch of people selling stuff we've 'acquired over the years' and I have other people helping me and I'm just compensating their effort with some cash!"

I'm probably skipping over some laws or something, but that seems like the most logical way to counter the liscenses. Otherwise anyone in the market section living in New York State is screwed over.

I hate the liscenses because they're a bunch of bloody red tape, making it even harder for startups to actually do something! It's damn paperwork everywhere!

Thankfully I live in Canada, but there's always the possibility those licenses will spread up here too...

The US is bound to collapse soon. Everything is showing it, economy, politics, everything. So don't worry about the liscenses, just be sure you can get through the wake of a dissolution (some how) of the United States. Now don't quote me, and I'm not a US hater, but just looking at the signs makes me worry.

I don't know what to think now. It seems most countries have regulated Bitcoin in some way and people are reacting badly to it. We all knew this was going to happen sooner rather than later.

There is 0 exchange in the US for a reason. Now that government is regulating it, it won't be too long before all major bitcoin holders in the US will leave the country also.

This is exact reason why I`m not buying any more BTC.

From now on there`s no way this 2 points of view are going to conciliate.

If like me and others in this thread you want to stay royal to the principles stated by Satoshi you`ll leave if BTC becomes regulated.
That`s ok. Let`s agree to disagree. That`s diplomacy guys not war.

But before that time comes I can`t stress this enough... Let`s remember that BTC is not only a new type of currency.
IT CAN BE A NEW WAY OF SOCIETY. One in which we wouldn`t have to trust anybody to do anything.

Strip those principles from Bitcoin and you did it! It will be just a coin (with less costs etc etc).
Sry, but for me BTC is not bigger than what it brings inside. If the majority of BTC`s community pick regulation I`ll leave for sure.


The Code brought us this far, let the Code push us further. It is possible to regulate within BTC`s code I believe.




Peace brothers,
AMVM

There are other coins dudes. If you are concerned about regulations, you are welcome to invest in coins such as DarkCoin.  BTC isn't the only crypto in town.

And for all the regulations, bitcoin is difficult to truly challenging to effectively regulate. As opposed to fiat. 

Do you really want "InternetApe" managing your coins?
http://www.darkcoin.io/meetteam.html

I seriously doubt we are going to see any "serious" government regulation start coming into play until bitcoin has hit a potential market-cap of at least 100 billion.

*I can see this in my crypto-ball :-)