Bitcoin Forum

http://www.coindesk.com/world-bank-report-bitcoin-naturally-occurring-ponzi/
Do you believe it ?

It's not a ponzi, they are mis-using ponzi.

Something being a bubble doesn't make it a ponzi.

There is quite a bit of speculation with bitcoin, but it has more in common with trying to predict what stocks are going to increase in value than a ponzi scheme.

Whether bitcoin is currently over-valued or not I don't know.

It's impossible to mine without significant investment and the price is higher than I want to pay to invest in as investment, but i'll take it in trade for stuff.

Personally I'm beginning to believe that "the coin" that will have the best utility will be an altcoin that has a lot in common with bitcoin but has adjusted for some of bitcoins failings (like 10 minute blocks, too long). It's hard to get it right the first time, but bitcoin did a damn good job.

If an altcoin or three takes off, bitcoin will fall because those speculating on a limited coins supply and increasing demand for crypto-currencies will realize the limited coin supply isn't as limited as they thought, new comers will simply use a stable alt coin.

I suspect this fall will not be a crash though.

Sure, if you stretch the definition of ponzi to include market bubbles. This is just a creative way to get the words bit coin and ponzi together without having to directly accuse anyone of anything. Typical bank fud response. 

They stretched the definition too far and produced statements with no intellectual honesty. It is much more accurate to say that "Bitcoin is a popular vehicle for excess speculation" or "Bitcoin is not a Ponzi, but does have some fascinating similarities".

Kind of predictable for this kind of organization. Sadly people will see bitcoin and words like ponzi, terrorism, and money laundering in the same places and miss the boat that could really enrich their lives in the future. 

They are absolutely wrong.

Bitcoin is not a ponzi or will it be. It is just a currency going popular but in short time.

There was a Ghandi quote in there that went along the lines of "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they'll fight you, then you win." Seems to sum up Bitcoin's current situation eh?

They're very wrong about it being a Ponzi, they seem to not know what the definition is. Goes to show how good the schooling is these days.

This is definitely the "They will fight you" time in Bitcoin's history, as we've been ignored and laughed at, and now we're picking up steam and they want to fight and stop us from winning over the populace. In fact, I even have some ways to win the populace over to our side, I'll introduce them to and then onto the forum if they decide to ride along with us.

Don't worry, we've nearly won the battle. Don't be cocky, but continue what you're doing now. Push for BTC acceptance and publicise it. Don't let the Banks or anyone else beat us. Strengthen cryptos and their changes to society. There's almost no way we can lose, as we're too fast and strong for them.

To the moon!

They are confusing bitcoin and USD with their ponzi comparison  ::)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0

central banks are an un natural PONZI scheme of pyramid debt issuance without competition.

and this banking chap has no idea.

snip

no that's not the main attraction by far.

the main attraction proposition is the money/value is

• un seizable,
• can not be devalued by printing more fiat money.
• can be sent to the most favorable jurisdiction.
• no currency controls, want to move 100M, you can do that on Sunday at 2.00 pm, without a bank in about 10 ~ 30 minutes

Bitcoin is currency and far far more. The protocol has not been hacked to date.

and here's a quote from me to the world bank.

"Bitcoin is far more of a World Bank than the "World Bank" is and can ever be or even imagines itself to be. Straight out Bitcoin offers Banking to the whole world and all that without central agency".

Banks are going downhill from here.

They have been at it for too long already, it's time to take those greedy fuckers down.

In bitcoin we trust.

actually for BTC it's

with bitcoin we don't need "trust".

This IS coming from the World Bank Report.

In bubble stage doesn't mean it is a ponzi.

It's spoken by Bank, which is accidentally the biggest enemy of bitcoin

A naturally occurring Ponzi?
Just what the hell does that even mean?  If it's naturally occurring, then it is necessarily a ponzi?

Don't trust the banks!

"Gold is another example, as it has witnessed numerous bubbles and crashes over the years. Basu notes that gold lost more value in two days of April 2014 than it did in thirty years, baffling both speculators and analysts."

and then there are some of us who know that gold was manipulated down and therefore is artificially priced much lower than it's real value. the reason why it has been manipulated lower is to help support the usd reserve currency and other fiat ponzi schemes.

This label has been being thrown at bitcoin for years, it was and isn't a ponzi.

Obviously they have started realizing that Bitcoin might become a serious threat to them. It's the natural thing to do for them, spread FUD. 

WTF ?

Bitcoin Reports: World Bank is a naturally happening Ponzi !!! >:(

world bank has no clue, they believe that bitcoins are worth under 1c and people are making over $600 profit..
im sorry world bank but thats what bank notes are...

wont they realise that there are costs involved in making bitcoins, which give it the high price.. meaning if it costs hundreds to make a bitcoin, no on will sell for less (unless they are panicking idiots). the true cost of bitcoin is nearing $550 right now on average (yes there is some variances) so the "speculation" aspect is only about 10%-20%(bringing it over the $600 mark).... not 100%

gold is the same they have true costs and "speculative" profit area above it too..

if world bank has that mindset, then biggest ponzi is bank notes as it costs pennies to make the paper bank notes yet costs people alot of money to get..

as for bubble. bitcoin is not a bubble.. bitcoin is a bathtub of water, yes there are lots of bubbles and the more people jump in and splash about the more bubbles there are, and even if the bubbles die down,,, the bathtub still holds water and does its job. the good thing about bitcoin is that even if the amount of people jumping in and out may raise or lower the water level in the bath, the bitcoin protocol does NOT have a water plug that can be pulled. no single person can empty the water out, but bank notes get decommissioned all the time. just look at banks attempting to get rid of bank notes and be pure electronic transactions.

It's government bonds that are the ponzi. To save the dollar from collapse after the default from the gold standard early investors were promised 15% returns which would magically come from somewhere. Somewhere being the increasing debts of later entrants who have to borrow more and more to buy the same house. They only keep that ponzi going by offering less and less return with the threat of inflation.

Bitcoin now offers an alternative and will bring an end to their scam.

The clown that wrote the article is a clown and has no grasp of fiat currency and trust factors.

Here's a fiat currency example which is what the USD and Bitcoin is, something you accept in trade that has no inherent value but the parties in the fiat transaction agree the fiat  has a value.

So we live on a remote island filled with coconuts, I'm the big dog of the island and I have a harem of chicks.

My chicks like coconuts, so my harem agrees to perform services to the little dogs on the island in trade for coconuts.

Now my harem brings me in all the coconuts on the island, I'm the king of coconuts.

Do coconuts have value, they actually have more intrinsic value than say the USD or even Bitcoin, you can eat a coconut, drink it's milk and refine it into oil.

So coconuts may be a bad example of fiat, since by definition it has to have NO INTRINSIC VALUE but the parties in the trade agree it has value.

But the point I was trying to make, was the guys climbing trees to get the nuts are doing work to take the trade of the chicks making them happy.

So the chicks agree to perform services for coconuts since their big dog daddy pimp likes the juice.

If everyone in the network didn't agree the coconuts had value, the chicks wouldn't be servicing the guys and the guys wouldn't be climbing trees.

Now if the big dog pimp liked shrimp, then shrimp would be the currency, but since food has intrinsic value, it's technically not fiat.

More of a barter system.

Now once we move that trade network into say sea shells, what value has a sea shell, none really, so shells were one of the first real fiat systems.

Then some learned to use metals and currency took value in metals, primarily silver and gold due to scarcity, but what value really was metal to humans with no tech, it was for jewelry maybe.

Now maybe the humans were influenced by the ancient astronauts in Sumeria who created them to mine metals like gold and silver as ancient texts say.

So ancient cultures adopted GOLD as having value since their tech master slave owners aliens needed it in their tech.

Absolutely no reason existed for humans to become so enamored with GOLD 5,000 years ago unless an outside agent influenced their value of it.

So real currency systems evolved using metals and coinage.

Then some kingdoms debased their coins by adding lesser metals.

Then this paper crap called currency with NO INTRINSIC VALUE was created and the aliens are now laughing.

Through it all the network or commerce group AGREED to something they exchange for goods and services had value.

Food is probably the best currency but then it's barter, you can eat food.

Gold? Well with tech today it has industrial value.

US Dollars NO INTRINSIC VALUE
Bitcoin NO INTRINSIC VALUE

Yet a network of people are agreeing to take bitcoin in exchange for goods and services so as that user base GROWS its TRUST FACTOR GROWS

Bitcoin Algorithm of TRUST shows user base or trust factor is the only thing propelling the value.

7K users 5 bucks
70K users 50 bucks
700K users 500 bucks
7M users 5K bucks
70M users 50K bucks
700M users 500k
7B users 5M

So the size of the trade network of users AGREEING something of NO INTRINSIC VALUE is why bitcoin has value

Now you can understand where bitcoin is going

AS LONG AS TRUST FACTOR OR USERS INCREASE

The limited supply of bitcoin is a simple fraction of the user percentage of the GWP population of 7 Billion people

world bank, of all the organizations, calling bitcoin a scam? what.. the fuck? world bank is a scam in itself.. their business model is about giving big loans at ridiculous interest rates, and then fleecing the 3rd world country.

The Coin Desk article's title is wrong. The paper never says that Bitcoin is a bubble or a "naturally-occurring" Ponzi scheme.

Here is where Bitcoin is mentioned.


Nobody would deny that there have been speculative bubbles in the Bitcoin market, and the author of the paper does consider these bubbles to be "naturally-occurring" Ponzi schemes (wrongly in my opinion), but the paper never says that Bitcoin itself is a bubble or a "naturally-occurring" Ponzi scheme.

... with debt slavery called infinite interest .. one day we will look back on their schemes as a form of slavery .

Bitcoins by their definition, are simply a measure of currency, saying "Bitcoin is a naturally occurring ponzi" is like saying "Dollars are a natural occurring ponzi"

Fractional reserve system is a natural occurring ponzi is more accurate.

bitcoin has had several market bubbles in the past but has not had any in roughly 9 months now. I would argue that even speculation in bitcoin is decreasing.

There is 0 evidence that bitcoin is anything close to a ponzi

I think of dollars like a pyramid scheme. The average people do all the work and the people at the top reap the big rewards simply because they happen to be at the top. They are always whipping us into a frenzy to go out there and make more, borrow more, and spend more. 

They already are using the best security they can for an obsolete system. The only way they can push that pig to make it fly is off a cliff.

World Bank just like some people who doesn't understand how bitcoin works, they will think this is ponzi
or they just afraid bitcoin will destroy their scum system? ;D
couldn't agree more!
and they still ignore that fact and still using it
LOL to world bank

All bitcoiners should put a comment on this P.O.S. "paper"...
Banks that are loaning your money without gold backing have zero room to be talking about Ponzi schemes.

I think Naturally Occurring’ Ponzi thesis is somewhat correct. However, bitcoin has interesting/valuable features. The last citation is very interesting. Will cash vanish in the near future?

Well, describing Bitcoin as a naturally occurring Ponzi is somewhat interesting, because it actually describes some of its facts and reasons, why bitcoin is successful to begin with. A lot of people would never start investing in bitcoin if they didn't have the chance of gaining some money by doing so. Why would just put their money in Jeopardy. Early adopters do profit, yes. This part looks like a Ponzi. But Bitcoin doesn't need any new people to join the system in order to work. That's the key difference form a Ponzi!

The problem with the "naturally-occurring Ponzi" thesis is that a "naturally-occurring" Ponzi scheme isn't even a Ponzi scheme. Plus, the term describes all commodity investments.

Exactly, how can there be a naturally-occurring Ponzi?
When the definition is:"a form of fraud in which belief in the success of a non-existent enterprise is fostered by the payment of quick returns to the first investors from money invested by later investors.".
So fraud happens naturally?  :D

the Bitcoin price stability has debunked the ponzi/bubble theory already

how are they basing their story

and i haven't clicked on the link yet is anyone able to explain it?

Bitcoin is clean and wholesome:
Hey, are most alt coins "Naturally Occurring’ Ponzi" schemes?   :D

fundamentally they are actually quite sound investment ideas though the fact they replicate

bitcoin means they have weaker network strength and are vulnerable to attack and destabilization

bitcoin still has weaknesses associated with exchange manipulation and leverage though

it does have a fixed number which prevents much larger downswings,

TL;DR: Every speculative bubble is a "naturally occurring ponzi".

Ok then.  8)

This reminds me of USA saying the Russians took down that plane...
In the end, sadly, there are alot of people that dont understand that banks will allways talk bad about bitcoin, but anything they say cant be impartial.

This is why regulation is needed, even if it may seam like a bad choice, but atleast were not feeding the banks with more bad press to throw at us.

This is one sophisticated ponzi if you ask me I think they're just scared.

I think they realize that if average people ever figure out the game they play at our expense they will be out of business fast. Bitcoin sheds some light on that and it makes the roaches nervous.

LOL and this is coming from the World Bank where their whole motto is "Operate as a ponzi to fill our pockets with a whole lotta stuff and enslave the working class at the same time through fractional reserve banking"

 ;D ;D ;D

You know that the banks are retarded when they can't even get the definition of "ponzi" correct.

Bitcoin doesn't promise returns like ponzis do.

Using the word Bitcoin and Ponzi scheme in the same frame of reference is the same thing as calling it a Ponzi Scheme in my opinion, 'Natural' or 'Traditional' is irrelevant - Interesting delivery they have tried here. So many analogies in this context like the 'heart attack is a naturally occurring murder" ;) How audacious. Just the simple measure of commitment and intellect that has poured in to this phenomenon is all the credibility that is required for it NOT to be a Ponzi Scheme in any sense of the word; in fact its behavior is probably unrecognizable to the academics because it is the first true free market instrument in 40 years - buyers and sellers.

It is such a sad commentary on the state of affairs of the legacy system for these leaders to not recognize the truth behind the distributed asset ledger. In their position, having all their accumulated wealth in Dollars, there can be no other comment they can make.
JPM, Barclays, HSBC and all the others are incredible institutions and still are, ran by teams of millions of qualified individuals. The fines and wrong doing you read about are not because of the inefficiencies or frauds of their institutions, it is the skulduggery of the instrument that underwrites their business model, the dollar, and the twisted regulation that governs their activities. Capital will seek a path forward around legislation - it is also natural, circumvention is the equivalent of water seeking the lowest level.

Equally most will blame the academics for their 'mismanagement' of this instrument (Central Banks) . But it is not them either.
The great enablers of the real Ponzi Scheme that exists in the World today has been our respective Governments that have legislated their Ponzi Scheme such that it can not be called a Ponzi Scheme. With some slight of hand, a few pages can be drafted to allow fractionalization, derivatives, and leverage all the while maintaining "That this is not a Ponzi scheme." If the velocity of commerce and money is maintained at a high level, $1000 dollars can be made to look like $1,000,000.

I disagree with you Kaushik Basu, shame on you for being ignorant, short-sighted or or both. Bitcoin is now the most secure store of value on the planet Earth. It is much easier to counterfeit Gold by creating your own Goldmine and refining the ore at a cost of about $200 million, rather than trying to produce your own Bitcoin at $2 Billion. The education will spread and people will wake up to the truth soon enough. It must be slow and methodical however before legacy holders realize there is even a credible threat - and then it will be too late.

The institution I am a part of stands a chance to do more good over the next 100 years than the World Bank ever could because it is underwritten by an instrument of undeniable trust and transparency. Change is upon us.

Just like how a heart attack is a naturally occurring murder

bitcoin doesn't carry any promise of return. it only has promise of fixed inflation. i studied the issue carefully before i bought in.

True, but the article is a misleading representation of the report.
It's not unreasonable to study ponzis and speculative bubbles together (which is what the report does). Admittedly the terminology "naturally occurring ponzi" is misleading, but the report still has reasonable things to say about both.

The article is leading you to the conclusion that the World Bank thinks bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. If you read the report they make no such claim. Coindesk is misleading their readers.

I believe if anybody where to be an expert in recognizing ponzi's it would be the World Bank :-P

"The gig is up boys.  Time to join the 21st century you fat cat bankers!"

Hope CoinDesk will start linking to the reports they cite. It's pretty annoying.

Kinda like reading a report by McDonald's on how salads are evil and make you sterile

Speculative bubble is not, by definition, a Ponzi. No one is promising anyone future returns here.
World bank writer wants to malign human tendency to follow the herd. This tendency to see your neighbor's profits and be envious of them and in turn attempt to replicate them yourself is as old as mankind itself.

I guess the world bank would call the human race a Ponzi in that case.

From BANK

Well, how stupid World Bank to think BTC is a ponzi
i bet they don't how Ponzi work OR how BTC works
how can they call themself 'world bank' :P

i think they just made a fake report to destroy BTC Prize

Have a look at this recent survey.http://imgur.com/a/WcMIk In particular, pay particular attention to slide 13.

So while there isn't necessarily a central figure promising returns, the attitude of the community as a whole is.

The best terminology I can use to describe what's going on is that it's a 'Decentralized Ponzi' of sorts. Honestly, it's one of the most interesting things about Bitcoin to me.

Also, I'd argue that there are in fact central figures promising returns. You have all the big names. Andreas Andbopogogpffopolus, Gavin Andresen, etc. They're all very much claiming that Bitcoin is going to be the next big thing. And they're all huge holders of Bitcoin.

This is how the game has started, isn't it?

The bankers are now going to try and discredit Bitcoin and promote an alt of their own (Or just try to wreck cryptos altogether, with the latter being more likely) and so they're now going to be doing things like these. We must fight against their slander and lies!

This is how the crypto community will have to respond. We have to push for adoption faster, and educate more and more people on the benefits of Bitcoin.

We can win this, but we have to be able to slander whatever they do ASAP. If they make "Worldcoin" (Or whatever, name is already suspicious) we have to tell people why it's bad and no different from a credit card. They'll have to keep the code open-source, or they'll be scrutinised by the community, etc.

This is a game they want to play, but Bitcoin is here to stay. (Sorry for rhyme)

The World Bank is changing the definition of "ponzi scheme". They saying that Bitcoin is in a bubble, caused by people buying and holding with the prospect of making a return on an investment rather than using Bitcoin as an exchange of value, currency.

The interesting thing is that Bitcoin can only be defined as a bubble when its conversion into fiat (USD, Euro, etc) is brought into context. If Bitcoin is used as an exchange of value it loses some of its "bubble valuation".

I think the real question is whether Bitcoin can be a currency in itself, can people only or mostly transact only in Bitcoin? If so, its conversion to fiat is less meaningful and therefore the bubble context starts to fade.

+100 , people don't like new competition.

Like the banksters can talk! Just maybe if they'd bothered themselves to offer real savings rates, hadn't devalued fiat, not brought the economies to their knees (more than once) then and only then can they talk.

I wonder what he says about State run lottery systems?

If I tell you that you will get a big return on Bitcoin, is Bitcoin a ponzi?
I'm just a random, ain't I?

I think World Bank reads too much this forum to come to this conclusion.

They still have no idea why decentralized currency is the future.

I would argue that the term would describe all investments, not to limit to just commodities.

I really think the author of the report is not an expert in finance, nor does he understand how the bitcoin economy works (nor how bitcoin works)

bitcoin is also manipulated. cant seriously assume this pre-3-bubbles were genuine and nor will be the next one (or the downfall).
but i think its been manipulated to take over from global finance (as it is a sinking ship, reaching its maximum potential and facing technological barriers) ;)

Hah this is such a joke.

Anyone who looked at the situation logically, or even just simply rationally, would see that fiat currencies, which are created out IOUs the banking cartels give each and created out of thin air, with insane inflation and global debts that can never be paid, is far, far, far more a ponzi scheme than is bitcoin, which is a limited commodity created with great difficulty and by nature, an international currency not tied to any failing nation states or funny-money fiat.

No I do not believe Bitcoin is a naturally occurring ponzi in fact this makes me angry since that has been disproven so many times its not even funny at this point.

Well I read the scribd and Kaushik Basu was wrong on multiple levels.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/234241017/Ponzis-The-Science-and-Mystique-of-a-Class-of-Financial-Frauds

His argument on natural occurring ponzis is that housing, gold, and similar assets face bubbles in essence.
A bubble is part of the normal market fluctuation, and while prices may be inflated people recognize they have a value, so they are not naturally occurring ponzi schemes but fluctuating assets as what happens in any financial marketplace.

Contrary to a widely-held opinion, Bitcoin is not a deliberate Ponzi. And there is little to learn by treating it as such. The main value of Bitcoin may, in retrospect, turn out to be the lessons it offers to central banks on the prospects of electronic currency, and on how to enhance efficiency and cut transactions cost.

Facepalm (What I learned from this) BS one of the benefits of bitcoins will be to work as a voluntary mechanism of trade that people will perceive as having a value, this exchange will occur and form the new frontier of finance.

The OP is a dinosaur born in the years of fiat currencies and does not know the financial systems that existed before it which have a basis on real physical goods not just numbers on a computer with unlimited quantity.

Bitcoin has 21 million coins that remains static never changing unlike a reserve which can print as much as is needed and reduce a persons assets through inflation.

Similar to any other financial system a central bank and especially a world bank does not really print money but demands severe economic and material costs on any nation that borrows from it.
For this reason latin america and the BRICS are building their own financial systems independent of the IMF and we will see a revolutionary change in the way old finance is done, mixed with the new finance digital payment systems like Bitcoin will provide.

(“So Bitcoin isn’t a currency. It is [by the way] a Ponzi game and a conduit for criminal/illegal activities. And it isn’t safe given hacking of it.”)

Please go on oh grand master of the shills called the Federal Reserve  ;D

I watched all vids from that guy. I'm not sure if they are 100% correct, but if they are, than...yeah....banksters calling even original dude named Ponzi, ponzi, is just hilarious.

How's that old saying go?

Oh yeah..."Takes one to know one!" :|