Bitcoin Forum

For start - BTC is a currency not investment, but most people dont get it. Why its important?

The more BIG companies adobt BTC - they do it trought Bitpay Coinbase etc - that means - they SELL same moment they get coins.
Big companies taking BTC are not makign price raise, actually the bigger the company - the worse price will be.

This is why soon price of BTC will drop - more and more big companies are taking it now so soon indeed it will be a currency - but it will be nowhere near your expectations of 1k$ a coin or even curreny 600$.

Dont hate on me, shoot your opinions ;)

Belongs in speculation forum and...

I guess that is why since many businesses started accepting Bitcoin, longer term the price has skyrocketed at least 1000%.

 ::)

ok you are pasting the same dribble everywhere. (well if it aint you on different accounts then you and a few others are worrying about something you probably heard about in trollbox and now shouting apocalypse is near)

but you do realise even if there were a billion merchants. or just 100k merchants. its the bitcoin holders that have the ultimate power..
no one will sell or spend their bitcoin at a loss. unless they are stupid.

for instance bitcoin is $600ish now. if i seen a PC on amazon for $600, i would weigh up the pro's and cons of either using bitcoin of fiat. and right now bitcoin is undervalued, im holding out until atleast $1000.. so ill just use my FIAT.

so spending wont increase as much as you think, not until thre is some bitcoin price profitability to incentive spending. so if the price rises too fast to cause an incentive, the spending will cause the drop.. meaning the price stablises.

now as businesses advertise they are bitcoin friendly or offer discounts to bitcoiners, customer will buy bitcoins to get such discounts. again bitcoin rise due to demand, and fall due to spend..

over all there will be more hoarders of bitcoin than spenders so relax about the daily movements of bitcoin price. over the long term the price will rise. just at a more stable rate..

summary
CALM DOWN

Drop is good, it helps spread the existing bitcoin to new people which is desperately needed if bitcoin is going to be adopted and used by the masses.

I'd like to see it drop down to $200 USD. That will get a lot of holders to sell and distribute the currency to people who will actually use it for commerce.

Agreed. A price drop around a time like this (with Dell announcing their acceptance of the currency) will help make it more accessible to new users. People tend to look at volume over value, so I can see how some may stay away from Bitcoin when they hear $20 will only get them a fraction of a coin.

The BTC/USD exchange rate is meaningless and doesn't change the utility of Bitcoin at all, even for speculators. If it fluctuates between $1-$2 for 10 years guessing the top ($2) and the bottom ($1) can still make you a lot of money.

every bitcoin they sell someone had to buy, the net supply-demand change is zero.
every company that accepts payment in bitcoin raises the usefulness of bitcoin, thus more people will want to buy.

OP says bitcoin is a currency and not an investment, and he's completely wrong. bitcoin is both a currency an investment. why do you think there are so many johns here who stalk the price? because they put in "x" amount and expect to cash out or spend their coins at a higher rate.

Not necessarily.

I believe price went down after Dell because people bought Dell computers and Dell sold the BTC for cash.

So the BTC for sale rose higher than people wanting to buy, resulting in price drop.

BTC is still over-valued. If it was not over-valued, the price would not have had to drop like it did to absorb Dell accepting BTC and exchanging it for fiat.

Well, then as the price keeps dropping from idiot corporations, rather than trading in dark pools, incurring massive slippage doing market sells (and eliminating the profit of their not having to deal with chargebacks), then more and more bitcoiners (who aren't idiot panic sellers) will choke off their supply output if they can't sell at their minimum target price. As demand increases and supply decreases, price will increase.

My BTC is effectively destroyed as far as the supply side is concerned, until I can start spending it at $1250/BTC.

to buy the computer they first had to buy more bitcoin, the extra buying offsets dell's selling.
unless someone who was holding it as an investment suddenly decided he doesn't want the investment anymore and happened to want a dell laptop.

this is my own idea and i did not see anybody in trollbox with it. im actually preety transparent with who i am - u can check my signature ;) im surely nobodys 2nd 3rd or 5th account. hell, read my story: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=592436 im into this since very early stage.
for me BTC is a currency so i dont mind the price drops but many people think of it as gold that will get price on the moon. really u believe Dell or other big copany holds any BTC? they drop tchem to market right away. more BTC sold = price smaller.

i doubt anybody [well speaking in percent like 80%] bought BTC to buy on Dell. they rather held it since X time and now they dont have the coins anymore.

I've been saying this since I signed up.  The more merchants which accept BTC the more the price will go way down.  The merchants fire sell at the lowest prices to pay their employees, cover their overhead expenses and/or pay taxes.

Meanwhile while Bitcoin gets stuck in that limbo some coin with limited or no merchant adoption (like LTC or some other alternate) will eclipse Bitcoin.

that's nonsense. there is no real reason for the need of another cryptocoin.. so who would invest all that money into it?

Also not entirely true.  Overstock fella has gone on record as HODL'ing at least part of his bitcoin earnings :)

Bitcoin is defiantly an investment and a currency. Right now we are investing in the future of bitcoin. Everyone from the people that make mining rigs, to the people that just buy bitcoin.
They are all making investments into the currency. Thats what keeps the value of bitcoin. No one wants to sell bitcoin for less than they paid for it. Generally most people wont sell a coin for less than it cost in electricity to get it. It just doesn't make sense to sell for less than you paid for it. I the market dipped to $200 mining would be absolutely worthless and everyone would dump their coins and the market would crash as people keep undercutting to sell off their bitcoin. 

lol great one sided argument with lack of researching logic, psychology, or the other side.

imagine today some PERSON bought bitcoin for $600, and tomorrow they see a PC on dell for 1BTC, the customer will think long and hard and think, well the PC is worth $600 so the 1btc price is comparable. but then they are stuck with a PC which next year could resell for only $200, yet bitcoin could be worth $1200... and guess what customers wont spend their BTC right now they will either hold out or just use their FIAT.

ok fast forward a year. BTC is now $1200 the same customer thinks its really time to buy a PC,  and see's one worth $600, ok thats worth 0.5BTC which in reality, only cost him $300 a year ago.. so now he is getting tempted to buy it using his bitcoin. so now customers that bought btc the previous year will spend them, and the $1200 would decrease to maybe $1150 at most. and i will explain why

1. to make a price tank $200 in one day would need to have 10k coins hit the market in a VERY VERY short period. say within 5 hours at most, else the fluid nature of the markets will just correct itself
2. so that means dell would have to receive 20k customer orders within 5 hours (over 120k customer orders a day)
3. an average computer lasts 2-4 years before people upgrade.. soooooo

heres the bit that you will need to realise
for a endless rampage of customer orders to causing a massive price drop that does not correct itself.

if each person was to upgrade their computer every 2 years. (~700 days) it would require 120k people per day.. thus 84,000,000 people all choosing dell..

well im sorry but there are not 84million people choosing dell that are bitcoin holders aswell
im sorry that there are not 84million people holding bitcoin
im sorry that there are not 42million bitcoins and each bitcoin is in a clearly split 0.5btc per person for 84million
im sorry that there are not 84 million people and all of those people would hand thir entire bitcoin hoard to dell..

im sorry.

but dell is a big entity, i agree. but the actual 14million bitcoins in circulation, the actual bitcoin spread per person. and peoples human psychology to not want to give away all their bitcoin to dell. will mean that a price crash wont happen

if in a years time the price doubled and lets say 25% of people wanted to upgrade their pc because their bitcoin made profits and its time to upgrade anyway(average life cycle 2-4 years for a pc).

now i know that not everyone would choose dell, so please understand that the numbers i use are exaggerated to be high population numbers just to prove a point.

bitcoin holder population numbers equate that 25% to be 250k people ready to sell/spend.. so unless there is some hive mind, these 250k people wont all buy a dell in a 5 hour window, wont buy in a 10 hour window.. basically they will all have their own reasons to upgrade over maybe 6 months(after all thats the average 2-4 life cycle of a pc ).

which means daily spend at dell wont be 125k coins in 1 day.. but more like 2k customers a day(0.5btc each customer) so 1k coins... which calculates to less then a $50 price fluctuation.. if dell dumped the whole 1k coins at one go in a lump

but knowing the 10 minute transaction time of bitpay/coinbase.. this too will be spread over the whole day,as again people will buy at different times of the day and bitpay/coinbase would sale coins at the transaction time slowly throughout the day, making the price fluctuation only a few dollars, which allows for a easy self correction.

so now i hope you understand that even if EVERY bitcoin holder decided to buy a dell at some point (not gonna happen) and even if dell hoarded the coins and only sold their received coins in one lump each day, you would see a price difference of at most $50..

meaning the price rise to $1200 to incentivise spending instead of hoarding WONT cause a crash back to $600.. at most it would cause a drop of at most $50, but more than likely $2 drop, both of which would recover.

but those numbers were if EVERYONE was to want a dell over the next few years.. so even then $2 movements or $50 movements a day is exaggerated, with all the other brands out there. id say population choosing dell would be more along the lines of 20% not everyone.

making the exaggerated 25% willing to sell and of that 25%, 20% choosing dell.. basically only 5%.. so yea.. the numbers wont make a impact on bitcoin exchange prices.

i see not everybody accepts my statement. do u really believe big companies will hold BTC instead of selling?
theres even no wya for tchem to not sell sich without that they cant make invoices.

I don't think people who have yet to adopt bitcoin will care that they can only buy ~.0333 BTC for $20 but rather they care about the fact that they can use it to send money almost for free.

ok so far sides are:
1. big comanies drop BTC to market right away - making price low
2. some people clam, there are people buying BTC just to buy something else

imo 1 is right, 2nd is... false.


give your opinions

For now it is likely that:
1. in the short term more people are using their existing bitcoins to buy stuff at dell or other shops, instead of buying BTC first and then use them to go to dell.
2. Companies sell their BTC for fiat
3. Most customers won't replenish their BTC.


=> Negative effect on price

However this is just one of several components that effects price. Other are net investment, and miners.

When bitcoin adoption goes up people will replenish their BTC and new people will start using it.

I guess a lot of people actually get this. And it is to quite a big extent true, I guess. This is actually one of the more widely used explanations for the current drop. But it generates a wider acceptance and exposure to the public, which is definitely good in the long term!

Gotta spend of them BTCs. Being rich doesn't just cut it. You need to buy yourself some nice things to impress the ladys ;)

Actually, as more company accept bitcoin for payment, the value might go up because it is then backed by real asset.

Hence the argument, wider adaptation implies higher price.

I think most customers WILL replenish their BTC.  Why wouldn't they?
They are bitcoin users right?  You think people are just going
to get Bitcoins once, spend them, and be done with Bitcoin?
That doesn't make any sense.

If you can't use your bitcoins, chances are people will scare or get bored and leave the bitcoin stuff, therefore killing the bitcoin value.

Even if it may hurt at short time, its something that have to happen. Just hope we can revert the sell pressure by having more holders until the end of 2016

There's a third option that is better than using fiat: take your fiat, buy btc on coinbase (or wherever), buy amazon gift card on gyft.com using bitcoin, pay for PC using the gift card.

The rationale is that you get 3% rebate when you buy a gift card with bitcoin. That goes for amazon, CVS, target, whole foods, best buy, American Airlines, sears, barnes and noble, and lots of other places. Anybody with half a brain will do this rather than just pay with fiat the old fashioned way.

that i didnt know as im in EU. are those amazon cards workign for EU amazons too?

The recent price drop was initiated on the Chinese exchange (it is the market maker, others follow its price). Check the charts, they always move the price.

Coinbase/Bitpay sell their coins on Bitstamp.

Think about this for a moment.

Market just got bored, traders in China saw a weakness and dumped a lot of coins. They probably hoped it would go lower. 

I don't know, being in the US. You should find out and let us know  ;D

Sure i wasnt exactly speakign about current situation just long term. Peopel think when big player adds BTC its "good news" for the price. Inthe long run [few years] maybe yes but for now wit hevery big player theres bigger Chance of price dumping

Although bitcoin needs a MUCH higher value if it is going to work as a currency. Currently a handful of people have more money than the entire bitcoin protocol. Imagine if you had more wealth than the amount of cash, it just wouldn't work. For bitcoin to work as a real currency, it's market capitalization would have to be at least 10 trillion dollars, so that many rich parties could have their wealth in it.

When only a few dozen isolated business "accept" Bitcoin through Bitpay/Coinbase, of course they're going to swap for fiat. Because they have no immediate practical use for the coins, they're going to dwell on the "risky/volatile investment" part about Bitcoin (which isn't even an inherent quality) instead of its use as a currency.

Once a critical mass of businesses accept it however, then the advantage Bitcoin provides as a means of exchange is no longer merely theoretical. They'll find some immediate advantage to hanging onto at least a few coins for the sake of interacting with a sufficient number of other parties that accept it as well. Once the frictionless side of Bitcoin manifests into a tangible advantage for individual businesses, that's when you'll see business adoption become a boon for the price.

Actually I think you're right, every company that starts to accept btc will only take it and dump it to turn it into fiat and it will definitely drop it's price but having said the more people start accepting, it will benefit bitcoin in the long run.

i said obvious thing here but seems so many peopel believe Dell or others will hold the coins...

no - they will dump them. for at least few years news on new BIG company adding BTC = news on price drop!

BitCoin is like predicting the end of the world, the same way they predicted 2012 would end but never did. That is why it's called speculation, I don't trust a lot of speculation as I've seen a lot of them flop (but still it's a good read).

So you are making the same bear paradox argument.   BTCs get hoarded,  this hinders it from being useful medium of exchange.

I believe some of them will yes.  Particularly the more forward-thinking libertarian types but bitcoin price will indeed continue to drop as more large vendors come online if the majority of those vendors just instantly cash out (which most will I suspect for a time).

funny that whe ni say something good about BTC i get donations
yet when i give u REAL sell indicator nobody sends me even 1 satoshi ;)

In an economy containing only bitcoin deflation _could_ be bad. But hoarding of gold or bitcoin simply leads to selling and spending as the price rises. Saying hoarders do not spend is a fallacy, they do, once price has risen. This is how coin distribution works!

No. Increased adoption means (by definition) a higher BTC transaction volume and thus increased demand for BTC. This is true even if all merchants immediately convert their BTC to fiat. There will still be an increase in the price because a greater volume of consumers will have a demand to hold BTC at any one time.

Wow we're back with this argument again.  Every time the price drops 5% we get these threads.  I guess for Bitcoin's price to rise we need to have nobody use it for merchant transactions and hence nobody will be dumping it for fiat - then it will shoot to the moon!  That's the ticket!  ::)

 :D :D Totally agree!!!

We don't hate you because you don't have a clue.
Hint: Bitcoin isn't a currency...