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One think is pretty clear. If God exists he does not interfere in the lives of the masses of humanity. At least not in a direct way. If he did there would be no wars, no children dying of terrible diseases, no 9/11's or senseless invasions of Iraq and a million children would not starve to death around the world every year. Saying God gave man "free will" and lets us make our own decisions doesn't explain why he would allow the Titanic to sink or aids to exist to kill millions around the world.
 
If God refuses to save millions why would he go out of his way to save one?
 
Millions pray and get nothing for it. The whole concept of prayer and miracles is more than a little ridiculous. God either gets involved in the lives of people or he does not. The evidence is overwhelming that he does not.
 
What could be considered a miracle of sorts is when people turn their lives around and dedicate themselves to helping their fellow man. There could be something miraculous about overcoming your personal hatred of other groups of people and setting aside racism and bigotry, misogyny and embracing equality for all. Something as simple as taking the time to try and understand another person's point of view instead of automatically dismissing it ......can seem a little miraculous at times for many of us.
 
Love is as intangible as faith or prayer but we can see it's impact on the world on a daily basis. Goodness and empathy are as incorporeal as miracles and yet unlike prayer and miracles we see them change the world. These may be secular miracles but they come about because of the potential for good that is latent in all human beings and not based on pie in the sky religious dogma and superstitution.

Real miracles are brought about deep in the essence of what and who we are as individuals and as a species. No one has to wait or pray for a miracles when they can make one themselves.

What do you think?

I think the main reason God doesn't answer everybody's prayer is that He gets fed up with us getting ourselves into trouble and then expecting Him to bail us out. That, plus God might be able to hold up his end of things but He expects us to hold up ours, too, and sometimes we get stubborn about taking on our share of the effort.

Ha, religious people always find excuses for god'd non-interference as well! They keep saying that things 'are a test' and that people 'couldn't even fathom the reasons god is doing those things'
But hey, killing innocent people and taking away people's loved ones isn't exactly a test or anything. God is simply a jerk if he indeed did that.

Maybe god is a sadistic bastard who doesn't deserve worship, and he always answers prayers but usually the answer is 'no'!

Hahaha! But does he even answer people? Why don't those people who pray to him receive this answer then? I mean, if he says 'no' for.. like 10 times, I'd just say 'Well, then leave me alone, jerk!' hehe

Prayer only works on the mind of the prayer.   There is a biochemical effect of concentration.  Just as meditation and buddhism may work for some.  Or in my case, I can concentrate to stop things like hiccups.  I can slow my heart rate.  Its all about concentration.  There are real physical effects.  Sadly there is no sheening angel with a magic wand confering any benefit during prayer.

I think all logical arguments break down when talking about Gods and miracles.  Once the supernatural is part of the equation one can make up anything and it's silly to argue against that.

 Miracles, the word is used in different ways.   But, in the sense of the God intervening in the world - of course, folks disagree about that, and for various reasons.  Used in the sense of something happening that cannot or can never be explained in naturalistic terms - one might say it be a miracle if such a subject could be discussed without folk getting all upset.


Used in the sense of folk turning their lives around, of a major victory in WW II, or a baby being born - I think in that sense, one is meaning it is a wondrous and fortunate event.  But, usually one that is explainable in naturalistic terms. 

Dont get caught up on conceptions of good vs bad, they are all relative. Death is only a negative thing if you perceive it as such.  It is simply a constant transition of energy.  Universally, a human is no more signifcant than the food we eat or the air we breathe.

It was when we use our will against god, in a disynchrous manner, that these devestations are able to proliferate into existence.  Though every mistake helps humanity grow and learnto become intelligent in the end.

The beauty of life is that we have freewill to go for or against god.  It is this will to choose positivity or negativity that makes us human allows us to perceive life in the manner we do.

We make the world the way it is, try not to blame god as a seperate entity, for it is the same entity that is truly responsible for manifesting the reality into existence, you.

Unexplainable as you say in "naturalistic terms".....I assume to mean physical evidence.   This still doesn't equate to miracle.   It equates to unexplainable.   Humans cant explain everything because sometimes there is not enough evidence.  Doesn't make it a miracle.

A Miracle zolace? How about you admitting that God might not exist because there is no evidence he does. That would do it.

Clearly, saying there is no evidence is rather foolish. Interestingly, the hostility that folks such as yourself feel towards the idea that God exists is evidence in and of itself. At least, evidence that you might think He exists.
Alot of energy spent for a non existent Being.Anyway, so, what evidence, what miracle, would it take for you to acknowledge there is a Creator?

Not much.  Just one piece of evidence would convince me.  Care to present any?  I know you think you have, but you have not presented one single shred of evidence that can be held up as proof of a creator. You can do so now and convince me.  All I require is a single proof.

That is fine - but that did not answer the question that was asked.  I am not asking how much evidence you need - but what would such evidence look like for you?

It would look like evidence.  Do you need a dictionary? 

Evidence - the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

Do you have any evidence?    Please list the BODY OF FACTS that indicate your god is real.   They should come rolling off your fingertips Tomas.

Ready go.

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume I was not clear (again).

Give an example of evidence that would lead you to conclude there is a Creator - what would be something that you admit, if it was to ever happen, could not be explained in naturalistic terms.  That it could only be explained by the existance of the Creator.


For example - if you saw someone rise from the dead - not just read about it but actually saw it yourself - would that do it?  And, if not, what would?  What kind of event can you conceive of that could not ever be explained through science?

I repeat.  What it would take is actual factual evidence that not only could not be explained in naturalistic terms, but provides factual evidence of god. That is quite clear.   Got anything? 

Not being explained by men in naturalistic terms is not evidence of god, it is evidence of something as yet unexplainable by men who aren't too smart.  It would need to be both unexplainable by men and direct evidence of a creator.

I have never seen or been made aware of any direct factual evidence of god.  If you think evidence of god exists......I have asked you to present it and yet you obfuscate.    You are so in love with your belief of god, why do you fail to present any evidence that you believe exists?

Because you need to first establish what it would take to make such evidence convincing.  And, since you say you are understanding what I am asking, and yet not providing such, let me ask you in a different way, since you did not answer the other question.


If you, actually saw someone whom you had known personally, whom you knew to be dead 10 days - body was even decomposing and dismembered (arm 50 feet away for example), and while you are looking directly at the body, you see before your very eyes this person rise immediately, whole and live again, are you saying that there would be a naturalistic explanation for it, even if you did not know what that was?

Or would that fit your your criteria below?

It would need to be both unexplainable by men and direct evidence of a creator.

Factual evidence of god.  A body of FACTS (evidence) indicating god is real.

I am aware of none.   You are free to present facts that indicate there is a god.   I am listening.

Ill give you some examples :

1) The world is an amazing place that we cannot fully explain.

That's all fine and well but because we are stupid and cant explain everything is hardly evidence for anything other than we are stupid.

2)  There are writings that say people spoke to god.  There are writings of (insert anything here)

Heresay of heresay.  Not evidence of anything.  Not even indirect evidence twice removed.

3)  Unexplainable (miracles) happen.

If unexplainable and seemingly impossible events NEVER happened, that might constitute evidence of god.  Statistics says the unexplainable should happen with a certain regularity.


Your turn.
  Got anything????

That is twice now that you refused to answer to a specific example.  Simple question below: yes or no?

Seriously .....what purpose does it serve to imagine fantastic stories that would convince us of a god?  If a caped bearded guy floated down from space eating apples and shitting fruit cocktail I may also consider that as pretty good evidence of god.   But who gives a fuck?   I'm looking for actual evidence and not stories for which there is no evidence.

If you believe that there is evidence, you are free to present it.  Clearly you have none or you would have presented it long ago.

I answered the question.  A body of facts supporting the existence of a supreme being.  That is the definition of evidence.  I require some facts that say God is real.  Our existence and the amazing world we live in is not evidence, direct or indirect.

What facts would be required?  A talk with God directly, some direct evidence, we need to see Moses part the sea, we need to see something for it to constitute evidence.  You creationists ought to be experts at this.  You don't count any of the evidence of evolution as valid....you call it historical and cast doubt on it.   Well guess what, this criteria that you created should also apply to evidence of your god not???....there is no factual evidence that I am aware.

You know exactly what a body of facts are and you know what evidence is. I told you what factual evidence is (and what I would require).   I only reiterated what you already know about evidence .

Now, can you be honest and tell me what they are?   What are the evidences (body of facts) of his existence?

 If being evasive is an answer, sure.

Ok, lets 'assume' you did.  Humor me.  "Answer" "again" the question below: simple yes or no to below:

I already answered yes.  I would first assume something more probable such as reanimation of tissue by cloning by an advanced civilization, which is far more logical than a supreme being waved his magic wand.

But pondering fairy tales is not my forte.  How about some evidence?   Got any?

Your answer is yes, that it fits your criteria that it is both unexplainable, and direct evidence of a creator.

LOL. Im sorry you misunderstood me.  I actually didn't say it would be direct evidence of a creator .   Read again.   I said my first inclination would be to accept cloning or reanimation of the life that I witnessed die.  God is a more far-fetched explanation even in your example.  I would also consider a winged fairy dancing on a pin and shitting elephants as possible evidence of god.  But why on earth do we consider stories without evidence such as your example and mine, as something that "could be evidence if it were true"?   There can be no greater waste of time than pondering whether god could be considered real if crazy shit without evidence were to start happening in front of us.

I have a better idea.  Lets talk about REAL things and not stories without evidence.  What real evidence do you have ?   Body of facts indicating God is real.    Can you name one?

That is why I asked for confirmation.  Because, in your previous post, you first stated this:

" I already answered yes."

Followed then by the rest of your post which seemed to rather indicate the answer as no.

Now, regarding the rest of your post, was it you or someone else that noted in an older thread that there is no evidence currently of other intelligent life in the universe? 

By the way - in the example I gave, body was not just dead, but decomposing and even dismembered, so it is just reanimation going on.  But, it sounds like you would still assume an advanced civilization of which you have no evidence for, yes?

As yet incomplete existing technology of growing tissue from genetic material is a far more plausible explanation than a magic man.  Is there something you don't understand about that answer?  It doesn't assume an advanced civilization that there is no evidence for.  It assumes we have merely gone a bit farther technologically.   We now grow organs and tissues all the time.   Your example of a dead rotting tissue of man being turned back into a man is just an extension of existing technology that theoretically is very possible.  Not a race of advanced people (or a magical god) that I am imagining.   The most plausible answer is usually correct.   However, there is no real situation to back up your story so why are we even wasting our time thinking of plausible reasons for a story that has no evidence?

Ok, we are talking this week, if you were to see this (knowing where we are currently in technology) and see this happen within seconds, in the above example.

And the example is not talking about growing tissue - the dismembered parts are coming together before your very eyes.  They are not growing back their missing limbs - the missing limb 50 feet away is rejoined to the body.  Aad again, we are talking before you very eyes, within seconds.


In case that was not understood.  What I did not make clear was that - you are the only one around to see this.  Think of yourself as having come across this body out in the wilderness while hiking.

Same answer. It remains more plausible that the cloning technology exists without our knowledge this very week as opposed to a supernatural man in the sky,  Sorry you don't like my answer . It is my answer and is far more logical to me.  Pondering how many fairies it would take to dance on the head of a pin for me to believe in god is a complete waste of time. Since no fairies will ever dance on the head of a head, why the fuck are we pondering it?   What you need to do and you have not....is present the evidence of god that you believe exists.

As I gave this some more thought, I started wondering how you could miss some of the details of the example I gave - may not be intentional.  But, is it habitual?

Anyway, here a similar question to what I asked earlier was asked of an atheist, and his answer:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/proving-god/would-you-believe

In 1985 a popular debate on this subject was held between Reformed theologian Greg Bahnsen and atheist Gordon Stein. Stein was asked what would “constitute adequate evidence for God's existence?” He answered, “If that podium suddenly rose into the air five feet, stayed there for a minute and then dropped right down again, I would say that is evidence of a supernatural because it would violate everything we knew about the laws of physics and chemistry.”

Basically - and it was pretty much a given that this has been your position - no matter what occurs, no matter what evidence is presented, you are committed to a naturalistic explanation, regardless of how far out or irrational it is.

Your choice - but, given that, you should own that up front, rather than ask for evidence, as given your commitment to naturalism (a faith position), any such evidence would be conformed to that belief system anyway (regardless of what contortions are needed to do that).

Not unlike, really, the group of folk in Revelation chapter 6 (15-17)

NO, that is NOT what I said. Please try to pay attention. 

 Lots of things could occur that would make me believe in God.  I clearly stated that factual evidence of God's existence is what I require.  I clearly defined factual evidence.  Just because none has ever been presented does not mean it cannot yet someday exist. 

Now....when it comes to your example of seeing someone who was dead and rotting......then seeing them alive....even in today's world a more logical explanation than magic is tissue reanimation or cloning.   2000 years ago I would have believed it to be god.  But MY POINT was that debating how many elves are required to dance on the head of a pin in order to believe in god is absurd, since no elf ever existed and certainly none that could dance on the head of a pin.  Get it?   Arguing how many days post mortem rotting body would I accept God if I saw said body again in good condition  is a silly exercise .  Since no evidence exists that any rotting dead body has ever come to life for any reason.....discussing its merit as possible evidence of a god makes no sense...like you.

I don't think you really paid attention to the example I gave - but, I only gave such since you have yet to give an example of what is one of those 'lots of things'.  Surely you have some in mind then.  Like what?

let me try to explain this one last time to a man who is clearly among the world's dumbest.

Just because I disagree with you does not mean:

1) I just didn't understand you
2) I wasn't paying attention
3) I just need to read it again,
4) etc etc.


I disagree with you because I have a valid reason for me to do so.  It is FAR more logical that a dead person would be alive through some cloning or reanimation process rather than from a magic wand.  However, since there is zero evidence and zero reason to believe that a dead rotten person has ever come back to life, talking about it is absurd.

Talking about fantastical examples of magic that have never happened and will never happen when discussing evidence of god is about as pointless an exercise as you can imagine....and ....you can imagine a whole slew of pointless exercises. Rather than discussing imaginary made up crazy shit that might make us think god is real....I have a novel idea. Why not discuss actual evidence that indicates God is real?

Because there isn't any?

It's very hard to discuss about spiritual things, prayers and miracles and God because such things it's almost impossible to prove.
But, in other way, can anybody show love?
No, because love is also invisible thing.
...but we believe in love because we can feel and sometimes we can see expression of love around us.
It's the same thing with God.
You either feel God around you, his presence, feel that through prayers you can communicate with him and receive answer (miracle) but you can't prove this.
but, in fact, it doesn't matter really because faith is personal, individual thing, just between you and God, so why loose unnecessary energy and time on useless discussions and try to prove God?
It's just wasting of time.
What is important is your personal relationship with God, and this is just between each of us and God.
Back to the question yes i believe that prayers can help in special ways based on own experience.

My stance on this is similar to the tarot cards! I don't think prayers can actually do anything and miracles are just coincidences at best, which haven't been observed well enough by some people who then claim that something supernatural (or even heavenly intervention) has occurred!

See, that last post might have some credibility if you had answered the last question.

So again, give an example of below - apparently if there are lots of things, something comes to mind.

Lots of things could occur that would make me believe in God

I repeat........ making a list of fairy tale magic events that would have to occur to prove god exists, like a bearded man floating down from the sky and telling me he is god and taking me to heaven to see my grandmother, is a complete waste of an effort.  What the fuck purpose does it serve you to get me to make up fantastic bullshit magical evidences that don't exist and will never exist? 

Well, you might read Revelation chapter 6 some time.   I am going to make this clearer, as, when you replied, you did not touch upon all aspects, etc

1.You are walking in the woods, hiking, enjoying nature, and you come across someone you know, but dead.

2.You are able to determine that the body has been dead and decomposing for about 10 days.

3.Pieces of it are dismembered - for example, the right arm is 50 feet away.

4.And, no technology around.  You are not in a lab.  You may be carrying your cell phone, IPAD, but, personal stuff.

5.And while you are looking at this body, before your very eyes, this person rises immediately, whole and alive again.  His arm from 50 feet away is not re-attached to his body.  He is well, and he knows you, just as you knew him.


You feel the most logical explanation for this is tissue reanimation or cloning under these circumstances?  I have that right?

I already stated that something fantastical could be evidence of god, even though our lack of knowledge how something works has never been evidence of god in the past.  But there is no evidence that what you describe  ever happened despite your tossing out Revelations as a technical citation.  So..... talking about fantastical bullshit that never happened is really a waste of time.  I have asked you now more than ten times....if you think there is evidence of god.....tell me what it is.

Recall   Evidence = body of facts proving something true.  So even if we saw a dead rotting guy who was later alive, this is just as much evidence for a god-like doctor, some other miracle than God, or (insert your own fantastical explanation here). 

OP i disagree with you. This picture should explain you everything.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QfthOp9g7Uo/UdJkll9dMDI/AAAAAAAAAnQ/5PtlT8eWbxA/s1600/YIN-YA~1.JPG

Ok then, rewording this, since you say you have answered such, and perhaps I misunderstood.  To clarify:

If the following was to happen, all 5 points below, you agree that the most logical explanation would be that something supernatural happened.  I have that correct?

yeah,with  every bad thing there is a good side,but with every good thing there is a bad side

There does not seem to be any disagreement about what is or is not supernatural.
Even zolace has a grasp of the situation.... hence the problem....

It's like different people with different mind-set looking at the same object in the sky and wondering....

"Is it an ET ?"
"Is it some ultra-secret military aircraft?"
"Is it some other natural occurance thet we don't understand?"

Within the limitations of the data, 1 person, or 1000 persons will not see the same object the same way, and will process the data the way they are taught to do.

zolace...
There is no need for "What If...?" scenerios. You only use them because you believe you are contributing something "intellectual", when in fact you are just looking stupid.

"What if I took a  tour of NY City riding on the back of a winged pig!!""

THAT!!! Would be supernatural.

zolace-
Everyone here has a firm understanding of the power of prayer and miracles, with the exception of you, zolace.
"One white crow is evedince that not all crows are black."
 
All that if required of you is provide JUST ONE example of your "creator".

what if a T-Rex danced on the head of a pin?  Aren't you dying to know if I would believe in God if that happened?

Driver:  Ive been asking him the same question......why waste your time pondering what-ifs and just spill the beans on the evidence you believe you have?  We both know he will NEVER list any evidence other than "what-if"

Well, since rigon agrees (apparently) that the above would count as evidence for supernaturally evidence, just to bring you up to speed,, I wanted an idea of what it would take to rise to the level of evidence.  How high the bar.

Now, the bar may even be lower - but, the above example has ruled out the bar being higher for rigon.

To reiterrate...

We (including you, zolace) seems to have no problem with what is supernatural when we see it.
The only person with issues is you, zolace.  Your problem is that, YOU want to see the "supernatural" in everything.  You are like the die-hard UFO enthusist who sees blinking light in the night sky and thinks ET, and ignores the fact that it's just an airplane.

Your issues run even deeper, zolace.....
Even if you can ever demonstrate the "supernatural", you still have a long row to how proving divine intervention.

Sigh.  No.   I repeat for the 12th time.      I have said it remains more logical to believe a miracle of modern medicine or cloning than to believe a magical god did it.  I also said there are fantastical things that I could imagine that would make me consider supernatural.  However, pondering nonsense that has never occurred is a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME.

Now before you ever respond to me in this thread again I want you to repost what I said above and indicate you understand that is my position.

Can you do that?

I guess zolace is going to be like a rat terrier and rag this stupid thing until someone pays attention to him, and I don't think I'm doing anyone any favors by paying attention to him, but.....

What you are basically describing in the above is a situation that is impossible. But for the sake of argument let's say it happened...

Great! You have a fine example of the supernatural.  That's all well & good, but it is not proof of your "creator".  While 'divine intervention may be supernatural, the supernatural is not proof of divine intervention.  It doesn't make your fairy tales true.

zolace is now adding details of limbs flying across the ground and reattaching before our very eyes.  You couldn't butcher intent any more if you tried zolace.  You can imagine all the supernatural what-ifs you like but several things are true.

1)  The "what-ifs" have never occurred.  There is no evidence of any "what-if" any of us have mentioned.
2)  If the "what-if's" did occur, they are no more evidence of your god as they are evidence of aliens (which is also a more mathematically plausible explanation than a supreme being).

Given these two truths......what is your point? 

 rigon,noviapriani
I have not added any details to the below scenario.   You may not have read them carefully, but, that is what I have been posting.  Look back.

So, there are two choices here as what is the most logical explanation.  It would best be explained by science, or via a supernatural explanation.

You have chosen science, above.  

What if.....Thousands of Christians prayed for safety/salvation during a natrural disaster, and all died?

If I may clear something up one last time.  Nearly any explanation, including advanced people from another race travelling here in UFOs and reconstructing a dead guy, is a more likely explanation than a supernatural magical being.  You call my explanation 'science".  I call it..anti-magic man.  Its not just science that is more likely than a magic man.  Everything is more likely than a magic man.  This does not mean a magic man does not exist, its just that everything else is more likely.

Is this FINALLY clear enough for you ,zolace?  Now that it has been cleared up for your very slow and dull-witted mind, what do you plan to do with this new information?    

It takes you months and hundreds of posts just to understand someone else's very simple position, and still you don't understand it.

Everything is possible zolace, it's a matter of probability.  It is simply more probable that some undiscovered or alien technology brought the person back to life in your fictional story above than an invisible magic man with supernatural powers.

And there lies in your problem - this dogma of yours.  That is superstition, my friend.  But, it is effective in keeping considerations of the Creator out of the picture, by raising the bar such that no matter what happens, you will find an explanation for it regardless how silly.

There is a test, however, you can do - anyone can - and let the chips fall where they will.

wow that's rich.  you accusing others of superstitious beliefs.  LOL  I've heard it all now.  The bar is not high at all zolace when comparing probabilities.  The bar is quite low.  If one outcome is more probable than another, it is more likely.  Not superstition, but mathematical fact.  Ill show the equation when I have time.

I enjoy the equations that show 1=2.  It's fun when folk try to figure out what is wrong with them.Anyway, as noted, time will tell.

The math that eludes zolace is  1+1=3. In zolace' world, facts are simply a matter of "faith".  In zolace' world 1+1=3 is truth, if you believe it.

"Jesus Math".

Time is not on your side.  You have had more than enough time to prove your crack-pot superstitious beliefs.

The fool in his heard has said there is no God.

And when folk think anything is probable in this universe, well, one can see the truth of that.  That someone might think that, if a nuclear weapon was to explode over his head, and destroy everything in its path except him, that this is a matter of probabilities, is truly sad.

that you would think I believe anything you have just said is truly sad.

You are a sad sad delusional man .  Your religiously indoctrinated brain  is incapable of reading anything with objectivity to the point you completely misunderstand what other people say.

I have never said there is no higher power.  I have said there could be many many times.  I have correctly pointed out there is no evidence of your god.   I have said that the bible was clearly written by man and religion was invented by  man, for which there is a lot of evidence.  But religion and a higher power (god) are two different things.

If a nuclear bomb exploded over my head and I lived, Id believe in almost anything. But more importantly, pondering bullshit that NEVER happens as possible evidence of a biblical being is the height of stupidity.  I WILL NOT survive if a nuclear bomb goes off over my head.  A dead dismembered rotting man WILL NOT EVER come back to life. Wondering what a person might believe if this bullshit happened is a complete waste of time and exercise in futility.

Well just believe in god for insurance, if he does exist. And be like YO! i believed in you, and I didnt rape little boys at the church like some priests do so let me in yeah? lol.

Yes, you have given lip service to that statement several times.  I do not deny that.

It is only "lip service" to you because I do not accept your christian god of the bible as invented by men.  Its not lip service at all.  It is an objective reality.

zolace-
It is possible for people like me to reject your fairy tales, but still be open minded to the possibility of forces as yet not understood by me.

I know for a fact that your religious/superstitious beliefs are 100% bullshit.
On the other hand there are things that I don't understand, and I remain open-minded to new things/philosophies.

Too bad you aren't the same.

When you practice any belief system that REQUIRES deliberant ignorance, you are at the end of the intellectual food-chain.

There are no coincidences.  To imply there are coincidences is to imply there is randomness.  Life is not random.  Every action as a reaction.  Everything you do forever effects the world around you.  The world is the way it is because we have created it to be so, intelligent design.

Every action you make will change the path of your entire life, in each waking moment.

As someone who has seen and done the impossible, I can attest that reality is not a closed system.  Reality is a reflection of our perception.  If we perceive limitations and impossibilities, than it will be so.  If we perceive the opposite perception, infinity, then it will be so.

As long as you subject your mind to false beliefs, negativity, ego, you will be trapped in the reactionary world.  The world of science - limits and transitionary processes - death.

When you can perceive your existence from the other end of the spectrum, from the soul, you can free yourself from the entanglement of life in hell.  You can ascend to a higher plane of existence, which comes from within.  Every negative has an opposite.  Instead of creating thought processes of negativity - I can't, it won't, it's impossible, etc - find the opposite and resonate positive thoughts within your mind - I can, it will, it's possible, etc.

Your thoughts alter your existence and ultimately, following positive thoughts will lead you to affirming positive beliefs when your mind surpasses a level of understanding beyond the negativity you once perceived.

We are gods who have forgotten we are gods.  Once we become self aware of our true state of existence, rather than our false delusion we currently live in, we will be free from the forces of negativity that constrict our existence.

We all have the power inside of us, all it takes is you to find the will and empower it.  Where there is a will, there is a way.  If you indefinitely subject yourself to negative thought patterns, judgments and beliefs, you will not find the will to be as you were made to be - infinite.

There are things I dont know about which could include a higher power.....its just not your  bible.  That is NOT lip service.  Your saying so means absolutely  nothing. There is nothing more maddening than a dumb-ass who tries to tell me the intent of my words.

Future advice...dont pretend to tell people what they mean face to face .  Someone might break your neck....I would certainly be tempted.

Prayers & miracles....

Riddle me this....

If a life-threatening event/disater were to occure, where would my directed prayers be most effective?
1.Jesus
2.Tooth Fairy
3. Easter Bunny
4. Santa Claus

Answer:

All of the above. They are all equally effective.

For me, its been Jesus.  Never had any success with the other three.........

You've had "success" praying to Jesus?  Prove it!!!!

You are a fucked-up ass, zolace. You've never had any "success" with Jesus. You can't demostrate evern one time.

It's the same thing over & over &over with you.

I'm only going to comment on this thread because its activity shows up in the "Today" stream...and because my name is in it.   Normally I prefer to just ignore the three of you on your religious threads.  

But for the record:  

rigon is a liar and a dumbass.  Anyone can go to the original thread and see he did not repeat my words and he is too effing stupid to grasp I was pointing out HIS listing of the best nations on earth are those which are all milky white.

I do not share his opinion that those nations are even the best, let alone his apparent preference for milky white folks.  


That is all.  

I never mentioned anything about white folks....that was you.  You were arguing that liberal progressivism leads to societal ruin (again not me).  I proved to you that the most liberal progressive nations on earth do not have societal ruin and in fact have quite the opposite.  I never said it was because many of their people are white.....that was you. I never invoked white or brown skinned people at all....only that the most liberal progressive places were in fact not showing any sign of societal ruin anything soon.   So when shown that liberal progressivism, contrary to your verbal diarrhea,  isn't the lone variable in determining whether a society goes downhill, you ran to your next unfavorite thing.....minorities.....must be the lack of minorities that gives those places higher ratings.....that's it.

There's no such thing as miracles. If people believe they can't do anything but pray for someone, they do it out of desperation. It's even worse if they simply rely on praying and don't actually do anything that could 'really' help achieving the thing they want to.

It is a fact that the nations I listed are the most liberal progressive.  It is a fact they have low crime.  It is a fact they have high quality of life indices and it is a fact that when surveyed they are among the most satisfied people on earth with their governments.  I can show you all the studies again.  Your agreement that they are indeed good places to live is completely NOT required, unsolicited, and irrelevant.  What is relevant and very interesting were your words regarding the reason those nations don't have problems is because they are white and don't have minorities.

 Still misses the irony.  Sad.  Anyway, apparently threads here get noticed in some way I don't monitor.  Interesting.

But, if you really think you have a case there, rigon, you should note that in that (original) thread - only pointing out here the irony of you complaining about folk determining your intent.

There will be more examples forthcoming, no doubt.  Perhaps its best I point them out then in the thread where they are found.

I repeat.  Words have meaning .  I don't determine the meaning of words. sana wrote that the reason some Scandinavian liberal progressive countries are good in so many ways is because they don't have minorities.  Those words in that sentence have meaning that I did not infer.  If you choose not to accept the meaning of those words....that is another thing....but he wrote them.

Fascinated by the 'zolace's interpretation is the only valid interpretation' approach.


Anyway, you still don't get it.  Your words have meaning also.

The question is whether you got the meaning correct.   Do you know what irony was being pointed out by her?  Whether you agree or not?

Remember the movie "Children of a lesser God"? Their God was deaf. The truth is all Gods are deaf because the imaginary do not have ears.

why do you persist in this mindless "crusade"?  You have never presented anything supports your beliefs.
You have been proved 100% wrong at every turn.  Why continue?

If you believe clamping you hands over your ears and screaming, "IS NOT!"...... is an argument, then you are lost.

Let's talk about the Haiti Earthquake of 2010...

Yeah! More than 4 years ago.  About 250,000 people died intitially. Over 1 MILLION are dead.
People are still dying. Cholera and disease running ranpant... no clean water....

The majority of the population of Haiti were Christian!, zolace?

Where was your "creator" ?   Was his answer, "no"?

First of all, good luck showing the majority of them were Christians.

And second - for a Christian, death is followed by the resurrection.   That right there is a major answer - to their prayer for forgiveness.

Why do you assume - and that is what you do - that God must answer prayer the way YOU want him to?  Your timetable, etc?   God answers prayer - but we are not talking a computer here.  A person.  Three Persons in One actually.

Check out Muller, or keep on hiding.  Frankly, for now, that is your choice.

http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

ha ha ha, show me a picture of god please..

If God exists then he doesnt give a fuck.

There are folk who can testify that they have had prayers answered.

Others testify that they have not - and lets face it, the testimonies do not conflict.  Unless you have some universal law you can point out that everyone or no one should get their prayers answered.

why don't you show us a picture of your soul?

If god exists i will recieve a PM with a person wanting to sell me 1 btc

The believe in one god is rather primitive if you ask me. We all have a bit of essence, sadly many are disconnected that's why so many are willing to go back to their roots or are in search for who they are and where they belong.

God wants you dead. Why? Because Jesus suffered for all the mistakes of the whole universe. And the biggest mistake was made by man when he neglected to give God the glory for creation. Man did this in the trust they put in the serpent in the garden when it (the serpent) told them to eat the fruit God commanded them to not eat.

So why does God want us dead, especially since He sent His Son Jesus to save us from death? Because Jesus was a man as well as God. As God, Jesus has the power to do anything. As a man, He had the ability to suffer and die as people do.

Now, think about this. If a mosquito bites you, say, on your right shoulder blade, what do you do when you feel it? You instinctively swat it with your left hand. When Jesus feels a sin that you do that causes Him pain, doesn't He instinctively want to use His almighty God power to get rid of the pain by damning you to Hell? But His mercy and love and patient endurance keep Him from doing it, sending you immediately to Hell. He wants to save you!

The point is, after you have tested Him over and over again with your continual sinning, which is causing Him continual pain, where is the point that the man part of Him will simply kick in and overcome the patience, love and mercy, and He will swat you damned to Hell. So, God wants you dead in this life, so you don't tempt Him beyond His patience, and He sends you to Hell. That way He can raise you, perfect, in the resurrection, perfect for and to eternal life.

:)

I even believe that some people use their religion as some kind of legitmization of the wrong things they do. As long as they're firm believers and true to their religion, and pray regularly, it's okay if you do things that are illegal or not OK

It has to be One God. Why? Consider how many couples work together so well that there is never any problem at all. If there were more than One God, a universe this complicated could never have come into being because of the bickering between them.

:)

I think it is that way because many religions are based upon the believe that there is only one omnipotent god, who is the pinnacle of power. If there were other gods they would inherently be a threat to 'your' god or diminish his power simply by being as powerful as the original god.

All right. I guess I didn't say it directly enough. To reiterate...

This Universe is so complicated that even if there were a thousand gods, they would have to act so extremely as one, that there would essentially be only one God. Otherwise there would be flaws, disagreements, mistakes, etc., and the Universe would never have come into being.

One God is the only way it could work.

:)

If you compare the complicated machinery of man with the far more highly complicated "living machines" of nature, you can see that God exists, according to the dictionary definitions of God, that is. At the very least, nature is God, simply because the things of nature are many orders of complication and detail greater than the best man can do, although man is learning.

:)

If you want to define god as nature that's fine, but the majority of believers has a very different definition of god, plus we already have a word for Nature, it's Nature!

I don't see how doing this improves the god hypothesis, because you can define whatever you want as god, someone can say their favorite coffee mug is god, that's fine but we already have a word for that, it's mug...

I think that God in different religions and tradition is the same being, just people had different understanding and thinking who is God, based on their cultural and spiritual foundation and development.
In every culture and nation, in the time of need and despair, people was asking for spiritual help and guidance.
This never change.

Of course it has change, now when we are sick we go to the hospital where there is specialized people in health-care, we don't call the witch-doctor or a priest to pray away the disease...

soul is the same like GOD or something, we dont have a soul we have a heart, liver, stomach and shit:P

Which means...........nothing. 
 

If a billion people pray for shit....like food......and half a billion get food......were a half billion payers answered or did they just get food ?

It stands to reason that things peoplel want will sometimes come true all on their own.  Believing that god does this is the work of a feeble mind, not a superpower.

Still waiting for evidence.

Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown or unknowable.[\\

I am kidding no one when I say that everything you say about your god is unknown and unknowable, just as all other gods.  I believe all the religious beliefs likely to be untrue and purely a result of the evolution of intelligence as a trait, which does not preclude an unknown power in the universe that neither of un understand.

I think that is pretty clear.

I dont believe in your christian god. That doesnt make me an atheist.

People get sick and go to the doctor. At the same time people pray for the patient's health.
If the MD gives the patient medicine that causes the patient to get well, is that an answered prayer?

How many States have intervened on behalf of the children of Christian Scientists, sana?

That's because we are too stupid to realize that we don't know anything at all about our future, even one second into the future.

Think about Hiroshima and Nagasaki in WWII. People were walking down the street, others were in bed sleeping, some were at work... they were simply living life - fighting the war. Then BOOM, and they were merely shadows on the sidewalk.

Did those Japanese people even imagine that something like that could happen? They couldn't even believe it AFTER it happened! It was too big. They didn't know even one second into the future what would happen in their lives.

We aren't any different. Oh, we feel like we have some control over our lives. But the credit goes to God for giving us some stability. If the Japs had had the true God in their lives, Hiroshima and Nagasaki might not have happened.

:)

This really is true. I think a lot of people just had good luck when their disease was "prayed away"