Bitcoin Forum

I've seen loads of topics of people trying to sell things and saying I want x amount of dollars worth of BTC. Surely if someone is so keen on the idea of Bitcoin fiat shouldn't even be mentioned.

They should be prepared in certain instances to take a fiat loss for their beliefs.

Sorry you'll have to forgive me I have no idea what that means.....

1 some people do take small losses on purchases because of the principle

2 Those with the eventual objective of an all bitcoin economy have to initially deal with the reality that while getting to that point it takes time for all the things they need/want to purchase to be available in bitcoin only.

3 During that process a fiat/$ reference allows them to estimate relative value in the existing economy...eventually the reference can be purely bitcoin..but of course if fiat still exists it will always be compared

4 why not?....freedom of choice.. not everyone interested in bitcoin share that principle but many do.

While Bitcoin remains volatile their is no problem using stable units of currency as a unit of value while Bitcoin is used both as a secure payment mechanism and than stored as bitcoin so individuals don't lose their money through the theft of taxation or inflation.

Using Fiat like the USD or Euro as the unit of value during a transaction doesn't support fiat outside of psychological recognition those are more stable currencies. In the future when bitcoin stabilizes more this will also drop.

Some good points there.

I was merely meaning that quicker adoption of bitcoin as a whole may ensue if some of the bigger users started to refer to things with a BTC value putting fiat second.

correct.

as i know that exchanges show dollar amounts. so its not about bitcoin being fixed to dollars because i in england tell people a POUND value, so its all about heling the person infront of you understand the local value of bitcoins. and nothing to do with a dollar pegged price.

another way of thinking about it. imagine the world which was more used to, which fully understood, and really grasped the 'cost of living index' then we would say bitcoin is 1.5 of COL. even if exchanges were measured in dollars or the person was chinese, russian whatever. its purely about getting bitcoin recognized in a value the other party would accept and understand.

Google is your friend. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=porque+no+los+dos)

Pricing things in fiat is easier for everybody. If I want £10 in btc for something the btc at the time I listed it might be worth more or less a few minutes later so you peg it to your currency of choice for convinience and simplicity.

Because the BTC price fluctuates more fast than fiat, al though it has been very stable in the last months. I think the people are also getting used to all the units, uBTC, mBTC, bits and what not.

Not really a good argument, at least for now. Bitcoin is volatile. I want $50 of value for my item. It's easier to list in USD for now until btc becomes the standard.

It is a familiar denomination. Changing the way we think about something takes time. Many of us all ready take losses when we transact business because we pay exchange fees to top off our stash when we spend bit coin.

Because it gives people a representation of the price that they are more used to. allowing them to be able to judge the price and therefore if they think it is worth buying almost instantly whereas if it was priced in BTC the person looking would have to go to preev or something similar in order to get a representation of the value that amount of BTC holds.
It is exactly the same as saying "when people use a new language why don't they use exclusively that"

Dollars are a more reliable unit of account at this time. Also, when you are selling to a public not yet familiar with BTC it makes the concept easier for them. If I was selling a service such as software with no marginal cost of production only available in Bitcoin most likely I would price it in BTC, otherwise, pricing would be in USD with BTC payment available.

And the merchant has supplier cost which is price in FIAT rather btc. Volatility could prove to be downfall for crypto currency.
 

It is because a large percentage of people will be more than likely converting it back to fiat when they need the money.   Or it can be so people can see the equivalent price in dollars in case they have never used BTC before

Lots of fair points being raised.

Maybe we are still a way away from this ideal - hopefully not too far  :)

I still would like to be able to buy everyday essentials with BTC knowing it costs x BTC not x amount of dollars worth of BTC - but I suppose we need to get to shops actually selling food for BTC first :)

Ok my violin is no longer pegged to fiat, using the pizza index it is now BTC266,666.667.

Bitcoin price varies, we need to have some reference.

Also most of commerce is still fiat, and no bills can be paid with bitcoin, so fiat is the reference

it's not as simple as you think. bitcoin's price is always rising, so .02 btc is not the same today as it is tomorrow. plus, fiat is our point of reference, since bitcoins are denominated into decimals. it's hard to scale them.

People who have been around for 2+ years know why pricing things in BTC is an exercise in futility.

yeah, i know that .2 bitcoins is equivalent to $120 in today's price.. around there at least. but once bitcoin goes for $1450 per, it'll be harder to calculate a reference point for how much .2 is really worth. if bitcoin overtook the dollar as a currency then it'd be fair game, but we're not even close right now.

bitcoin is a baby, and it is already killing the dollar.

give it at least 10 years, and things will most likely be priced in bitcoins directly, actually in 10 years it may be more accurate to say things will be priced in satoshis, since a bitcoin could probably buy a brand new car and  maybe  even a house.

The coolest part of all is that it will make making wars expensive, since bitcoiners do not have to pay the war tax by force unless if they voluntarily pay such tax.

To help the bitcoin economy we should buy in the following order:
1 max priority to vendors that accept bitcoins and keep the coins.
2. vendors that accept bitcoins and sell the coins for fiat.
3. fiat
4. credit cards.

 

There are a couple of things that is priced as BTC and not fiat. For example, altcoins and cloud hashing contracts. That might give us some perspective of what a future BTC-denominated economy might look like.

That's just silly. Majority of the world still operates in terms of fiat. Until the day where you can pay nearly everything (rent, food, bills, and other misc cost) with btc, the world will still be pegged to fiat until there is a global monetary collapse.

If you bought your car for 100 btc, then price btc price crashes to $7/btc, but you get an offer for that car for 105btc, are you going to take the offer and consider it as profit?

The reason is that others do the same and thus the BTC required to buy something from someone else will vary, which in turn makes people charge varying amounts of BTC in order to get the same good for the same good in the end.
Theres only 2 solutions to that:
1) Everyone has to change to only pricing things in BTC at the same time so they don't get left behind when the BTC/USD value drops
2) A slow adoption that will only lead to think being not pegged to fiat once the complete supply chain agrees on it.

That being said, a lot of prices are only shown in BTC and not in fiat already, it's just that the prices keep changing because of the BTC rate, but thats only happening on the backend. You will still only pay what the BTC price you are presented with.

It is reasonable and prudent to price and value items for sale in terms of something that is relative stable, e.g. USD. That way the seller does not have to change the price on a daily or even hourly basis.

This is true. Another reason is that more people are much more familiar with the "value" of a dollar. They are likely paid in dollars so if they pay $100 for something they know how much work they need to do in order to produce enough currency to pay for the item. This makes it much easier for people to determine if an item has a good price or not.

Fiat is still currently more popular and recognized.  Also the exchange rate fluctuations are still wide in ebay vs fiat, if priced in btc you would always have to check an exchange rate before buying a good.   

Of course...if the new replacement car is still 100BTC. :)

You should price your goods in whatever helps your potential customers.  Bitcoin is not a crusade, it is a means for commerce.  As someone else pointed out, the USD and other national currencies are much better (presently) at being units of account.  Bitcoin is a great potential medium of exchange, and maybe store of value, and so people are using it exactly as they should be.

Not everyone is so financially privileged as you, first world ignoramus.

Honestly I think comparing fiat to the amount of btc desired is a fair way of stating how much purchasing power of bitcoin you want during a point in time (now) where the purchasing power of bitcoin fluctuates.

This is very true. If you were to price your products in terms of BTC then you would likely get a lot of questions about how much your products actually cost. If the public is familiar with a certain denomination then you should price it that way and when you accept bitcoin you should make adjustments for exchange rate changes.

I can see why people do state that they would like to be paid in so many dollars but in bitcoin as it's easier then for it to be converted exactly and them know they will be receiving just that in bitcoins rather than losing out and getting paid less for their work.

Here is one already existing solution to that.

http://pesobang.com/

It's just easier for the time being until Bitcoin becomes more popular then I should think people will use just BTC as a label for price and not fiat.

I don't see how that website is a solution to that problem. All that website does is price their products in terms of bitcoin, but if the exchange rate moves then either the merchant or the buyer will end up getting a worse deal then they should because the exchange rate moved against their favor.

Somebody has to take the risk first. Eventually more people will start to price things in BTC, and that will help the exchange rate to stabilize (maybe, I'm no expert).

I think it will need to be the opposite. Once the price starts to become much more stable then things will start to be quoted in terms of bitcoin.

I think another reason things would be priced in bitcoin would be because it would cost a merchant bitcoin (instead of fiat) to produce and sell a certain product. If it always costs someone .2 BTC to produce something regardless of the exchange rate, then the merchant will likely want to sell it for something above .2 BTC.

 Merchants are paying all the raw material or suppliers with fiat. If they accept btc payment, they will need to change to fiat to pay off. They are afraid the btc price goes against them and want to get back specific amount of fiat to cover the cost and make profit. The reason that they accept btc payment is that they want to attract the customers who hold btc.

I seldom use foreign currencies and also was careless to the exchange rates. Holding BTC/LTC make me very care about the exchange rate swings. I like the decentralized currency, but I hate to keep my eyes on the screen board to watch the exchange rate. It looks like I'm holding some kind of securities instead of currency.

It's a silly argument for many reasons. We need to tie the price to something so we can understand it better. It's no different than prices for different currencies at your local currency exchange where you go to get your holiday money.

Isn't it obvious people that are familiar with the trend of things in the btc world know that the price of bitcoin is not stable so it is easy to make their demands in fiat which has a fixed price value.

Com'n bitcoin will never replace fiat moreover bitcoin is an asset just like Gold but it's virtual.This is a huge misconception that bitcoin will replace fiat.That is never gonna happen

You nailed it men.Its the basic truth bitcoin can't replace fiat.

You have said it all,the difference isn't there.

People still look btc as a mode of investment rather than as a currency to be used to buy something online. Somewhat they are correct, because btc isn't accepted much..

I try to price in BTC where possible...


Whether it helps to stabilise price or not I don't know or care. I do it because I value the BTC over the $

Why do people always say this? How much are most bank accounts? $8-$15 monthly? Are you spending that on fees.. Technically you're saving.

OP there is a simple answer to your question, that the people don't know where to spend btc but they know where to spend fiat.

Well me as an example, I am still in the process of collecting Bitcoins, but when I do get some I probably will sell them for fiat.  I have loans I would like to pay off.  I want to keep Bitcoins but also pay off my loans!

Ask steam engine operators what they thought about the first combustion engines.
Ask the cavalry what they thought about heavy slow steel vehicles with canons mounted on top of it.
Ask tank drivers what they think about drones and stuff.
Oh wait, many western countries don't even have tanks anymore, they are becoming obsolete.

Ask yourself again.

That's true, but you should only reference to FIAT, not use it as primary value denominator.
So for instance, this laptop costs 1 BTC, equal to xxxUSD at time of writing, not the other way arround.

I'm really iritated by the fact that coindesk writes articles about companies and merchants accepting bitcoins and selling an item X for xxxUSD in bitcoin equivalent.
They should write it the other way arround. Only the fact that I don't have anything to do with USD and live in a EUR area.

They became used to fiat so it's hard to leave out that part

Since the merchants have to pay expenses in terms of fiat, they will need to price their goods in terms of fiat. If they did it the other way around they would be vulnerable to exchange rate risk.

If the merchant had to pay for the merchandise in terms of dollars then why would they sell it in terms of bitcoin. This would be a lot like saying that you will sell a $100 bill for .05 BTC regardless of the BTC/USD exchange rate. If the exchange rate gets low enough then many people will take up their offer because they would be getting a good deal, but if the exchange rate gets too high then no one would buy because they would essentially be getting ripped off.

Bitcoin is quite volatile. The fiat exchange rate is the easiest way for all of us to gauge current demand for bitcoin.
If Bitcoin were evenly distributed between everybody on the planet there would be 0.003 bitcoin per person. From there you could start figuring out how much a house is worth or a cup of coffee.

Because the price in fiat is easier to relate to for most people I think

The beauty of Bitcoin is that it is universal. So while we can compare it to USD for value, it can be converted to any countries dollar. This is what gives it such tremendous value.

You don't understand. Bitcoin isn't strictly a currency, it's also a payment system ...and much more.

Most people don't have a sense of value when things are priced in bitcoin. In order to show a shop is cheaper, they need to quote in fiat so consumers can compare prices without conversion.

I think most people who are involved in Bitcoin can tell the price difference between bitcoin and fiat?  I know I can it isn't that hard...

I check the price once a month. If the price changes everyday, then I'm almost always behind.

This is no one or the other matter,People are being speculative here regarding bitcoin considering it as a currency.The real thing to understand is that bitcoin would never replace fiats.

Why? There is a possibility, albeit a small one.

It is like when you visit country with different currency, you need to make conversion to something your very familiar with. And with your local currency you have all life experience, so it is natural to convert to the one your most familiar with.

Maybe if the kids start using Bitcoins much more often than local currency, they will start converting local currency to Bitcoin to get better idea how much it really cost.

I tend to do the same thing when traveling in a foreign country. So when the local food stall ask me 20 shillings for a kg. of spinach, I quickly convert in my head to $0.25. I believe in the concept of Bitcoin, but I can't think in bitcoin prices yet.

People cant still think in btc terms.

Because BTC is a volatile currency, but US dollars aren't.

LOL. Right. How much value has the US dollar lost in the last 100 years? The USD is only seemingly stable because of the establishments in place to keep order and keep stacking the house of cards. BTC has been volatile in the past, but for the most part we enjoy great stability now. Depending when you bought in, you're still several hundred percent up.
Going back to OP though, the price isn't that important. The thing is that just like gold, providing a specific amount of weight doesn't tell you much. But comparing it to a currency gives a user a more "local" impression of the value.
In the future that could change, but we will see.

“But,” the whiners protest, “Bitcoin can’t be used as a unit of account! How can it be a currency when you can’t use it to distinguish a profit from a loss?”

To put this argument in context, let us review the three traditional functions of money. Money is often simultaneously a store of value, medium of exchange, and unit of account. The argument goes that if a good is not useful as a unit of account then it is not money. However, the only necessary relation between these three functions is that a medium of exchange must also be a store of value. A thing can serve as a store of value without being a medium of exchange or a unit of account, and a thing can be a unit of account without being either of the other two. Konrad Graf has written an article developing this point."

http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/i-love-bitcoins-volatility/

fiat exist, so it must be mentioned until it is globally replaced. and anyone invested i hope knows the risk and is prepared for any change being a loss, gain, or stagnant market.

Oh, c'mon! Are you stupid?

People are more comfortable in buying things with real currency than BTC , and they think BTC as a sort of investment, maybe that's why.

Hope I am clear.

So, the problem is that people think Bitcoin is not a real currency.

Most people do not keep cash fiat in this fashion for 100 years. They have no reason to.

Someone that has put their fiat USD into an investment that is "designed" to be kept there for a long time (eg stocks, long term bonds) then would have done very well over this 100 years, even after accounting for inflation.

I think it will one day shift into pricing directly in BTC, but not until we reach mass adoption. For now, the bitcoin economy is still in the kindling phase... not yet the blazing fire economy. For now, people relate better to USD or their base currency when trying to adopt BTC I think.

'Volatile' means changing suddenly and unpredictably. A slow, steady decline of 3%-ish a year is not volatile no matter how much you want it to be.


You know, except for that 20% drop we had a week or two ago.


I really don't understand what any of this means.

What about the other way around? What if the T-shirt business applied your logic when bitcoin was $10 worth, if they fixed the price of single t-shirt+delivery at BTC2 ($20 at that time) how many do you think they'd be selling now?

If you're running a business, you have to adjust the price to BTC/USD rates to make sure all the expenses are covered (payable mostly in fiat).

If you're individual (ebay-like) seller, who doesn't sell for a living (just getting rid of unwanted goods) - you can fix the price in BTC, take the loss if price goes down, but if the BTC price goes up, you still have to be prepared to lower that fixed price (to remain competitive).

Is there any reason you don't check it multiple times a day?  It is as easy as checking the time which I am sure you do multiple times a day.

There are not much known people who accept bitcoins to buy regular stuff but fiat is accepted by everyone.
So people think bitcoin only as investment.

I'm not buying stuff multiple times a day.

This is a very good point. Most people selling things for bitcoin are bitcoin poor and inventory rich. If they were to price things in terms of bitcoin then their sales would be negatively affected when the price of bitcoin goes up.

In order to be able to have a stable price for their goods, a merchant will need to price their products in something that has a stable value (dollars).

I think the biggest reason for this is to attach a currency to that.  It is the same reason BTC has a price attached to it.  If I tell you I am going to give you 150 blue velvet posters, wouldn't you want to know the fiat value of that? 

I don't think it is so much the fact they have been "trained" to price items in their local fiat, but rather they are paid in their local fiat so that is how they measure their money.

I also think the exchange rate of bitcoin is too volatile for most things to be effectively be priced in terms of bitcoin. The only real exception to this would be things that are able to generate bitcoin income (for example miners or cloud mining)