Bitcoin Forum

Coinmelting, tainting, 30% of the network not adding tx are symptoms.

Hoarding is called thus not because people are jealous (there is that element, tho), but mainly because people (who have no Bitcoins) are not waiting for the system to change, reset, repair.

They want a medium of exchange that allows them to replace broken or provide missing infrastructure.
You can also gauge the opinion of a currency by the behavior of thieves.

The amount of fraud in Bitcoin is right now related to how many people think it's a joke. Thieves want bitcoins to get easy dollars.
In the future they may steal Bitcoins so they can get a TV at a yard sale which they can put on auction for more Bitcoins.

But they are not doing that now.

I have sent the chewing gum from my LTC auction. 30.1 LTC for 5 sticks (I sent an 18 stick pack I bought for $1.69 - no 5 stick sugarless anywhere near me). Most 5 sticks are $.35 here. 1.69 / (18 / 5) = 1.69 / 3.6 = $.45 ish

LTCs trade at $.0055 - on the hypothetical chewing gum market they are worth $.35 / 30.1 to $.45 / 30.1 or 2.3 to 2.8 times.

And that's from ppl who have a lot. Combine low supply with renaissance mindset and you'll really see some action. Also for ppl who say that ppl are getting a bargain at 30.1 - I don't want $. I want cryptocoins. So they are in fact undervalued. The gum is cheap only if you want $.

I will be auctioning a T2330 Intel 1.6 GHz Laptop CPU for LTC soon.

I wasn't kidding when I said I would make a stand.

Thieves are using Bitcoin to get dollars. They think it's a joke.

There is a tension between the perception of Bitcoin (by necessity) and usage (by practicality).

Those of us who want to build are getting restless. We don't know what the big bitcoin holders want and they're not asking for anything we have when they do talk. This has resulted in ppl calling them hoarders. Others want demurrage. Others want tainting.

Fungibility is not being respected because bitcoins are a pain to acquire without going through the dollar bridge.

I want to build as well as protect fungibility. I'm cray cray like that.

So unless "hoarders" start saying what they want in terms of goods and services, we're going elsewhere. Litecoins, fartcoins, whatever it takes.

In related news theives are using Gold to get dollars.  They think Gold is a joke.


Why do you need the "hoarders" coins and what they hell does that have to do with fungibility.

Uh-huh. I came to the conclusion it was a very clever chat bot. You can almost understand what it's getting at but ... logical content == 0.

Bro, I think I know what you were trying to say, you wanted to acquire bitcoins via bartering, and you were lamenting those hoarders don't want sell their coins, and don't want to buy your gum?

Everyone know what big hoarders want: higher prices.

There's nothing you can't buy in this world, if the price is right.

I sold my gum.
I'll be selling my CPU.
And some head phones.
And pens, crayons, paper.

Shit. People. Use.

The litecoin culture is more conducive to get out of this mess than bitcoin culture.

I want something other than dollars.
People who can't get bitcoins are getting loose with the fungibility. They don't respect it.

Angry ppl want to sacrifice important features to acquire / keep more bitcoins.

Hoarders are delusional if they think bitcoins will continue to have value when the dollar explodes. All attached currencies will fall including bitcoins.

Maybe people don't want what you got?

I mean honestly I don't hoard, I routinely trade or sell 80%+ of the coins I have mined over the years.  Still I don't really care about an old piece of junk computer or a stick of gum.

Just yesterday I bought a yubikey off a noob.  No dollars involved.
I have bought gold coins from vendors, I routinely snap up useful computing hardware in the marketplace.

Some girls who never heard of Bitcoin before this week got more coins than you have simply by sharing naughty pics.

Maybe what you are offering is just worthless?

Hoarding doesn't reduce fungibility.  If anything it simply drives price up (less coins in effective supply) but the nominal price of Bitcoin is irrelevant.  

ok, I stand correct. I shall rephrase,

There are somethings money can't buy. For everything else, there's bitcoin.

.

If the UN announced Worldcoin was to be released. People would complain that the billionaires with their mining rigs make it impossible for the rest of us to mine any Worldcoin because the difficulty factor is too high. Trade prices would skyrocket as a result. I don't know about anyone else, but BTC @ < $5 US seems like a bargain.

Nope.


Not even close. As I said people are not complaining about not getting in on the ground floor. But rather because the people with the coins aren't talking. No one knows what the hell they want in services people can provide.

Check the auctions some time - it's all financial instruments no one new to Bitcoin has. Money for money.

Those are useless to people who want to build infrastructure with Bitcoin.


Nope. I believe the litecoiners are more reasonable in their awareness of immediate problems.


I sold gum for litecoins. Past tense. As in successful sale.

Bitcoiners want gold bars. Bitcoiners want to wait out the financial disaster. Litecoiners want to deal with the actual issues not just protect their own assets.


Nope. They're delusional if they think their Bitcoins will have value when the value is tied to dollars. Once no one wants dollars anymore no one will buy Bitcoins because they won't need them for storing dollar value. Euro will blow up around same time. Pounds will crash along with everything else. Maybe Asian currency basket will be valuable. How many yen is a burger these days?

Bitcoin value is "tied" to dollars? how do you explain the floating exchange rate? Bitcoin value is tied to the goods and services available in exchange for bitcoin + speculation on future availability of such goods and services.

"bitcoins store dollar value" wat?

Please don't try to launder facts through rhetoric.

Look at the items for sale or auctioned on this forum. Most are one or another financial instrument. People are holding onto Bitcoins til there's a better price in other currencies. There isn't a consistent market for goods.

Hoarders are holding for better dollar prices. When the dollar crashes, bitcoins will no longer have any usefulness for them and they will start selling them massively.

Hoarding is one motive.


So if the dollar collapses, people start selling all their Bitcoins to get worthless dollars? This is totally illogical.

To hoarders Bitcoins are like movie tickets. If the movie sucks they'll get rid of the tickets.

FTFY

1. Why not speak up and say wtf that value is?
2. The auction and WTB boards are all video cards and laminated frozen embroidered dollar bills.


I'll take that hypothetically but we are still left with problems:
1. While they will be relatively more useful,
2. The inherent usefulness (total capacity thereof) will be the same.

When cars break down, people might choose a horse, but the horse will not outperform a working car in and of itself.


That rhetoric constantly marginalizes measurements, thresholds, opportunity windows, and deadlines such that it becomes ridiculous to repeat.

There is not now the infrastructure to carry the transition. The dollar will burst way before Bitcoin is ready for the load, and there will be a limited window of time after which people won't bother with Bitcoin because it won't move fast enough. Also that's assuming people will have clarity of mind when the panic hits. They won't. Therefore they will not behave rationally nor proactively nor will they follow through with all the intellectual myths of the free market. The only thing the free market offers is practical dynamics and some heavy punishments for stupidity. The free market will not do the thinking for you. Nor will panicked people take steps that make sense.

Rhetoric in a collapse is based on arguments about best action not about real human behavior therefore it is useless.

The demand for both JOBS and SERVICES is huge so why not connect them now, before the flood? Why crawl? Why stare at the dust storm instead of building levees and walls?

Bitcoin will not be able to carry the transition, it will not be able to respond quickly enough, therefore it will after a euphoric jump, be abandoned. If ppl turn to distant rhetoric now to soothe themselves when they see the coming problem, how realistic will their reactions be during the crisis?

They'll just point fingers at each other instead being proactive now.


Not quite. :)

We get it... You haven't looked beyond these forums.  Open your eyes... I could drop fiat for bitcoin for everything except property taxes and utilities if more people were willing to pay me in bitcoin.

Poster printing?
Nationwide delivery?
Home repair?
Car insurance?
Frozen meat by the truck?
HV/AC installation?

You know the boring stuff.

Everything on that list I have no need for or handle myself other than car insurance.

Food, clothing, and anything from Amazon.com can be had for bitcoin.

My complaint isn't about what you or I need.
Those things are part of a functioning productive world and when truckloads of meat can't be delivered because bitcoin can't cover the load, bitcoin will crash.

Your food doesn't come from Amazon. It comes from farms.

No farm delivery, no Amazon supply.

We have to start somewhere... have some fucking patience.

There is actually a good case for bitcoin in the trucking industry.  Money transmittal is a constant pain in some trucking sectors, all it would take is someone getting stations to accept bitcoin payments.  It is being done cheaper than credit cards and way cheaper than the shitty high fee services some people use.

Well such bridges need to be built now.
Because bridges are the most useful yet mundane and obscured issues.
The passive free market attitude never penetrates deep into business to business when most of the passive free market is in the retail end.

Also if the trucking industry accepted bitcoin we wouldn't need govt to accept taxes and we would still have entrenched use.

And would likely result in massive pressure against govt regulation of bitcoin.

Bridges need to be taken care of now.

He's spreading FUD. It's "fear, uncertainty, and doubt" for those who are unfamiliar with the term. It's basically anti-bitcoin propaganda to discourage people from adopting it. If you can imagine someone who has just recently heard about bitcoin and wants to find out more about it, they are likely to hop on the Internet to find out more from a range of sources to build an overall picture of "what it's all about". If there seem to be lots of "concerned people" who are, ahem:


then the "Newbies" more likely to be discouraged from investing in Bitcoin. They probably wouldn't even consider the idea that what the OP is saying is complete bullsh*t.

That is what propaganda is all about. It's about having some kind of ulterior motive and trying to sway public opinion. The bigger the "ring of substance" (despite lack of evidence), then the more effective it is likely to be.

"Half truths" are a very popular technique. Say something that seems true, e.g.: about stealing or hacking or something like that, but then conveniently forget to mention how often it happens, or how it compares to the US dollar or something like that.

Repeating their claims many times is another technique. These boards are great for it because 2 guys working together can simply keep quoting and linking each other, thus drowning out alternative opinions.

Your whole response is entirely empty rhetoric having absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. I was around for the March 2011 blowout.
I have promoted and I use bitcoin for services. I'm not criticizing bitcoin.

I'm criticizing the bitcoin community for not making connections to essential BORING infrastructure.

Also I'm pushing litecoin. So please try to pay attention to what people ACTUALLY say.


Read the title btw - I am against tainted coins, coin melting, which will cause Bitcoin harm.


Is this a response or a corporate disclaimer in a pharmaceutical pamphlet? When did I mention hacking? Nothing of the sort is in my post.


Um I can see you have trouble with alternative opinions. Those of others.
Making accusations from rhetoric rather than facts.

Care to quote what I actually said?

Bitcoin will not primarily be used to buy things you can easily get with traditional currency, because of the advantages in buying with national currency over buying with bitcoin due to the scale of goods/services offered in national currency.

The only areas where bitcoin will see a significant increase usage at this stage are those where bitcoin's inherent advantages are so much greater than those of dollars/euros, as to make up for the disadvantages of the small scale of activity.

These are things like virtual goods (no charge-backs), unregulated financial instruments (anonymity), and international-remittance and micro payments (low transaction costs).

O_p  o  q_O <- ping pong as in dayam, someone understands finally.

Translation: Let's wait for the system to crash.

Well, then I shall consider bitcoin a passive market. Litecoiners understand the problem we face.

A general frustration over the slow (imperceptable?) adoption of Bitcoin is a valid reaction.  If what Inaba said is true, that 99% of Bitcoin is in currency speculation, it's quite disheartening.

It is very difficult to understand OP. I'd even say I am astounded by the amount of effort it takes. Is English not your first language or something?

Ahem.


People know what the issues regarding and leading to coinmelting, tainted coins, and 30% of miners not processing transactions are.

I'm simply suggesting these are not individual issues but symptoms of a larger problem.


People also know that those who complain about hoarding are accused of being jealous that they are not early adopters.
People also have an idea what economic changes have been discussed and the notion of a reset and have the hope for repair to be possible.

I'm simply suggesting that they are not jealous but rather want to use Bitcoin to create economic flows in the places where the economy would be most vulnerable during a collapse. I'm also saying that those who hold a lot of Bitcoins are waiting for the economy to go through
magical natural processes such as:

to change for the better
to crash violently enough to punish all players which would cause a reset
to crash quickly enough so minimal collateral damage occurs so that repair is possible

I'm suggesting that waiting for these processes is a delusion. I'm also saying this delusion is the real problem which is causing those symptoms above. At this point I have to mention those symptoms again because all this redundant explaining is making it difficult to recall the original point. Those symptoms are coinmelting, tainting, and 30% of miners not including transactions.


The basic essence of the delusion is the idea that Bitcoins are filling the needs of an economy. The behavior of thieves shows that this is not the case. Thieves cannot yet benefit directly from stealing Bitcoin. Unlike people purchasing gold for its future dollar value, thieves steal Bitcoins and quickly exchange them for fiat. Bitcoin is useful at the retail end. It's not being used in situations where contracts and decisions are made for the long term.

The other issue in the delusion is the idea that we should wait while Bitcoin crawls its way into various non-retail markets. We don't have time. We either start building solid relationships in places the general public doesn't even think about or this economy is toast.


I'm demonstrating that litecoiners are willing to engage in markets that are more pedestrian than the speculation markets on these boards.


I'm simply suggesting litecoiners are willing to roll up their sleeves while bitcoiners wait for the market to kill everybody off. I'm not waiting.

Now the question is: Why was it necessary to have all this redundant explaining of issues that have already been discussed? How is the shorter version unclear?

Well I'm sorry for misinterpreting your intentions with this thread :) One can never be too careful round here.

Perhaps focus on one issue at a time, and explain your views for those who might not be familiar? Like the idea of "tainting" coins. I actually agree that it seems silly. For a start, what would be required to make it work? Some kind of centralised database, which keeps a comprehensive list of coins that have been abused according to someone's law, and it would need to be administered by some central authority. And who becomes the owner of those coins?

Clearly the developers want nothing to do with it, otherwise they might have considered building tainting "features" into the P2P client. Once they start playing around with non-essential features that make things complicated, it's all downhill from there.

On the other hand, it also raises the issue of Bitcoin being a bit morally blind, or amoral. All discovered coins must have an owner. There is no "legitimate" or "illegitimate" owner. So if a thief brutally steals someone's coins, they become the new owner, just as with cash. So how do we deal with thieves? Societies around the world already have police forces and various laws to deal with theft. They exist for a reason.