Bitcoin Forum

Primedice is cheating

Yesterday I was just using PD to bet and doing the double-or-nothing experiments.
It was going fine at first. But suddenly, I had 11 consecutive-losing bets.
They were pretty odd, weren't they?
So I did some verification using the script provided by Primedice.

See the screenshots below. I did verify all 11 bets. All 10 bets are correct, but the No.2 bet from top is wrong.
On the screenshot, the roll is 92.29. However, the result I got from script is 0.02.
So I should win that bet, there would not be the last one bet(top one) which cleared me out.

Please don't say that your verification script is not updated.
What's the purpose of the verification script that site does not use and can't verify result?
So whenever someone finds you are cheating, you can say it every time?

Return my money back, you scam site.


BET #805607190 INFO

SERVER SEED (REVEALED)
41fa224237f452360db8d35a276f4067fce6cad8d3dbf3c73bde2e804c8cb8c7
CLIENT SEED (NONCED)
ca45edd88ef251dd43edf42dc97c7ffb-3391

Screenshot of 11 consecutive-losing bets
http://prntscr.com/4ed9mo (http://prntscr.com/4ed9mo)

Screenshot of BET #805607190 INFO
http://prntscr.com/4eda18 (http://prntscr.com/4eda18)

You can look up these bets by the bet id shown in the screenshot and verify them by yourself.
This did not just happen once but twice today and almost clear me out.
Since Primedice has been online for so long, I could not imagine how many times it has cheated.
I probably will do the same experiments on other bitcoin gambling web site. But Pirmedice is not trustworthy and return my bitcoin.

I also found the possible unfair when you PVP with "strangers" on Primedice.
See the post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=733500.msg8315850#msg8315850 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=733500.msg8315850#msg8315850)

I only used PD for several days, and already found 2 unfairness. 
How  you can still claim yourself 100% "provable fair"?


The script I am using:

            //the seed pair itself
            var clientSeed = "ca45edd88ef251dd43edf42dc97c7ffb"; //dont forget to exclude the dash and the nonce!
            var serverSeed = "41fa224237f452360db8d35a276f4067fce6cad8d3dbf3c73bde2e804c8cb8c7";

            //bet made with seed pair (excluding current bet)
            var nonce      = 3391;

            //crypto lib for hmac function
            var crypto = require('crypto');

            var roll = function(key, text) {

                //create HMAC using server seed as key and client seed as message
                var hash = crypto.createHmac('sha512', key).update(text).digest('hex');

                var index = 0;

                var lucky = parseInt(hash.substring(index * 5, index + 5), 16);

                //keep grabbing characters from the hash while greater than
                while (lucky >= Math.pow(10, 6)) {
                    index++;
                    lucky = parseInt(hash.substring(index * 5, index + 5), 16);

                    //if we reach the end of the hash, just default to highest number
                    if (index + 5 == 128 + 1) {
                        lucky = 99.99;
                        break;
                    }
                }

                lucky %= Math.pow(10, 4);
                lucky /= Math.pow(10, 2);

                return lucky;
            }
            console.log(roll(serverSeed, clientSeed+'-'+nonce));

I am not familiar with running NodeJS so I made a quick PHP script and I am getting:

fa7ae - 1025966 - 59.66
21fdd - 139229 - 92.29
a05cc - 656844 - 68.44


The first result is more than 1 million so it goes to the next one which results in 92.29 after the modulo function (and is correct AFAIK.)

There is 02 in the first result so perhaps your 0.02 result comes from there and there is a mistake in the verification script?

Also 11 consecutive-losing bets is nothing special at all. Verifying of bets is always good though.

Coinfist is a (paid?) shill (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=365873;sa=showPosts). His bet should verify now. Earlier today he attempted to verify using an out-dated script we had listed on our verification page which was quickly fixed. Not much more to discuss here, note that he posted this thread after this was fixed.


Reference:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=208986.msg8446518#msg8446518

maybe just a frustrated gambler who lost BTC

Nah, I think he made an honest mistake, he had been using an old verification script. Was it sorted out?

PD has become big and will reach 1 years old.
PD will face many challenge about it  ;D

"With Great Power comes Great Responsibility"
   

Again to repeat myself to ensure no one feels cheated by:

The code we provided on our verification page was slightly outdated as we changed the privably fair system to use less data. That is all.

All bets however DO ADD UP perfectly fine if you modify the script to the correct one.

Any reputable person (Dooglus etc.) who has a sound understanding on provably fairness can verify this. No one had rolls manipulated.

It's your responsibility to make sure that verification is correct. Now I use that script to verify, and  you say it's slightly outdated.

Tell me what's the purpose of this verification if the site is not using it and whenever someone points it out and then it's "slightly outdated".
Who knows what exact algorithm you are using behind the door?

What would it happen if someone else finds an other problem, and it will be another "slightly outdated" or another excuse?
 

I am paid? Which unfairness I found are not true, including that PVP feature?

Want 100% provable fair? Do act like one.
So do you job and make sure it's 100% fair.   And not when someone points out a problem, and you throw out thousands of excuses.

yeah Stunna is right on this, if its outdated then your not going to the correct results,  Also its easy to get that many losses in a roll when I seen more then 20 losses

some rolls of primeidice are really unfair..

but its provably fair.

primedice cheating?? are u sure???

I agree. PD is unfair to me. But it is probably fair

Stunna is as trustworthy as the most trustworthy person on earth, who happens to be Stunna.

Primedice.com cannot be cheating because it defies the laws of trustworthiness.

I'd trust Stunna/PD with all my bitcoins :)

It wasn't outdated, it was actually wrong. The developer had attempted to fix an out-of-date page and actually made it worse.

But as you say, the rolls themselves were fair.

Losing steaking 11 to 15 times is very normal on 50% chance.. and the OP is saying losing 11 steaks in a row is rigged?

If losing 11 steaks is not going to happen, I think all legit dice sites have already close down by whale with tons of BTC waiting..

I had won 5 bitcoins at PD  and was going to gamble some more today but I think im going to be playing at dicebitco

Well If It was technically fair but checking program was not working, It is still not nice because what player must think? Still I would give -1 for this issue. Of course most important thing that it is fair but everything should work.

view-source:http://rgbkey.github.io/verify/PrimeDice/


It looks very much like RGBkey just used the old broken script as provided on PD's verification page, and hasn't updated his copy yet.

Primedice is not cheating. I talked to them a few days ago with the same concern, and attempted to change my verifier to work with their system. I might have broke something in the process. The problem is with handling a small number of rolls that go above a certain number initially and need to use a different part of the hash. I will be updating my verifier page to reflect this and will talk more with the devs in an attempt to fix this as it is a known problem that the verification page on their site is in need of a serious redo.

I would trust PD with my money still, and this problem was initially brought up by me after losing a roll. They have not lost any trust in my eyes and should not in yours either, so please hold off on the accusations until I can get my verifier sorted out and they get their verification page sorted out.

It is correct that it's pretty bad for them to have an out-of-date verification page, but it's a new site and it's gonna have it's kinks.

I am in no way affiliated with primedice and everything expressed here is my opinion.

EDIT: Just updated the page, it SHOULD be correct now. If it is still displaying incorrect rolls, please contact me.

Thank you OP, I will be sure to stay away from this scam company and suggest everyone else to do so as well.

The verification script on PD was fixed several days ago now. You just need to re-copy it into your verifier.


Except OP has been discredited. The rolls are fair, and provably so.

but but but ..


something just went totally wrong with me lost about 1 btc with 90odds of winning role 96 damn why? ??? ?? ? ? ? ? ?

and after lose 1 btc i have only 10 mbtc bet 0.005 @90% got two times 92 ??? are you joking ?

If the site was using different algorithm than the shown one, I called it cheating, at least not 100% fair.

What if it is "slightly outdated" again? It's totally unfair to every player.

The 90% bet loses about 10% of the time.

If you bet at 90% three times, there's a 0.1% chance that you will lose all three of them.

I'm super serial (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9wmczxnT3c).

The roll generation is pretty much the same as on Just-Dice. The description on the site was wrong, and has been fixed since shortly after you pointed out that it was wrong.

Nothing to see here.

well 4 in a row .. :( dammn

It was never using a different algorithm, the sample verify script on the verify page was just incorrect for a few days and corrected. As many intelligent forum users who understand provably fair have noted:




No longer interested in replying to this, It is mathematically provable that PD does not cheat.  I'm pretty sure if I bought coinfist a pair of dice and asked him to generate his own rolls he'd still claim we were somehow cheating him.

Its always cheating when someone doesnt win

PD has been there since the start..

Mathematically provable that PD does not cheat -hahahah malarky like this makes me even more suspect.

I have seen PD autobet feature make mistakes that could have potentially been very costly.

'Forgot to update verification' -now this is just PURE kak and I would not take this website seriously... They are clearly hiding something behind their 'provably fair system'

That is my opinion anyway

Lol.. these guys are not cheating. Primedice has been around for so long and still you think they are cheating? Come on...

I put .2 on primedice the other day, though I would play a little martingale on 17sat base bet (covers for 20 losses). I lost within 15 mins, or under 500 rolls. This site is pure BS and I strongly suggest you stay away, rather use justdice or something -or better yet -keep ur bitcoin so these a**holes cant steal it

First was:


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=208986.msg8441727#msg8441727

Second was:



https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=791367.0


Now this "outdated script :)" hmm i dont know what to say... More and more shit flows from the depths of the ocean. But dont worry it's "provable fair"

Please post a screenshot.

The site's provable fairness is how I discovered they were settling bets wrongly. Without it we would never have known.

The 100 BTC theft was nothing to do with betting. It was stolen directly from the account's balance and so could happen anywhere.

This sounds so wrong...

Dooglus, I don't have a screentshot, but you can believe me. 20 consecutive losses :/ If I can get my primedice history I could prove it. In fact, it is funny you commented... I heard it once rumored that you said there are more high wins than low, so I have on bet high based on this information... :p I set on autobet, went to make some coffee and have a smoke and when I came back my heart almost stopped when I saw I had already busted :( I had something like .01 left and went all in, won on my 21st roll then soon lost it all..

20 losses in a row.. yeah, I would accept if it happened after a while, but after I make a coffee and have a cigi?!! The chances are like 1/850000 man wtf!?

I don't mind who does and who does not believe me, a friend of mine also had a 20 loss streak on 2x payout. There is something fishy about PD... as soon as you bet anything you just loose. All the little snappers and shrimp who live on the faucet will suck stunnas cock and go everywhere saying what a good website it is, but they aint never lost any real money and they just happy to get 500sat a night. I seen these guys get all sad when they loose like .0005 LOL thats like not even 5 cents

All I can say is this: I DONT KNOW IF PRIMEDICE IS CHEATING, BUT IF I HAD TO WAGER ON IT, I WOULD SAY THERE IS SOME KIND OF MANIPULATION GOING ON. THE 'PROVABLY FAIR' THING IS A FALLACY DESIGNED TO MAKE YOU FEEL SECURE, BUT ASK YOURSELF, CAN YOU REALLY PROVE IT'S PROVABLY FAIR OR ARE YOU JUST TAKING THE WORD OF MANY PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO AGREE BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO INSECURE TO ADMIT THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITIES OF PROGRAMMING AND HACKING AND WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT POSSIBLE.

Of course, many little snappers will come here and say jajaja go look you can 'verify your bets' and I reply: STFU -you probably live in your moms basement, get a life and realise people cheat and the world is unfair, and in my opinion bitcoin in general is the perfect place for this kind of cheating and foul play to occur. In future, I have decided to go to a normal casino or play poker, PD is pile of kak and I think they are cheating.

Now folks, that is just my opinion and last time I checked its a free world so I don't care what you say. I have seen many strange stories about PD lately and now after this 20 loss streak I have become dubious too. I not that I can prove they are cheating, but I just have become.... dubious....

The thing is, you don't have to live with doubt as to whether they're cheating or not. You can find out. And I would like you to, so we can all see if they were cheating you. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but isn't it better to know what's going on rather than to have a possibly incorrect opinion about it?

All you need to do:

1) go to your primedice account
2) click on the scales (last but one icon, just above the faucet, "provably fair")
3) copy/paste the text under "Current Seed Pair"

(here's mine):


4) click "Rerandomize (Change client seed)"
5) click "set"
6) copy/paste the text under "Previous Seed Pair"

(here's mine - it will be the same as the last stuff you copied, except now it has the "server seed revealed" too):


If you follow those steps and paste it in a reply here I'll check the rolls for you. I'll be able to see if you really should have got 20 low rolls in a row.


I know for a fact that it is probably fair. That doesn't mean that the site DOESN'T cheat. It means only that if they DO cheat you, and you can be BOTHERED, then you can PROVE it. And that's what I'm asking you to do here. Be the guy who finally catches them cheating, prove it, and their game is up. Or, on the other hand, prove to yourself that you were just unlucky. Either way you'll know for sure.

This guy is terrorizing the biggest and most reputable bitcoin betting site there is.. How many scam accusations did they withstand?

I wouldn't say they are cheating using something as obvious as that.. but before the total bullshit streak that always seems to happen no matter what, notice the bets lag just beforehand ;). Primedice obviously have somewhat control over bets or they would be bust long ago.. Everyone can see the verified rolls, but surely some people are smart enough to realize they have a system in place that chooses them rolls for you lol? The rolls are legit and random yes, but the rolls that end up that you win are cancelled out and made sure they out of whatever range your betting within. (Or something similar anyway)

The 20 loses in the row bullcrap happens all the time if you leave it run for too long, if i had the luck too pull odds like that so often i'd be winning the lottery monthly - yeah ok..

EDIT: Old thread but why isn't this looked into?

Lag is random. Sometimes it happens before you lose, other times before you win. You're giving more significance to lag before you lose because it confirms your suspicions. This is called confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias).

You can verify your rolls after they happen. All your rolls are predetermined. PrimeDice can't affect the numbers you roll.


They have a 1% edge in their favour. They pay out only 1.98x instead of 2x for a 50% bet. That's why they aren't bust.


Some people are smart enough to understand that it doesn't work like that. Your pair of seeds determines all your future rolls. There's no choosing once the seeds are set.


Either the rolls are legit or they aren't. Your (or something) at the end just shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.


20 losses in a row at 49.5% should happen about once every 860k rolls. Lottery jackpot wins happen much less often than that. Also you play the lottery much less often. You can make a million PrimeDice rolls in a week, but you can't play the lottery a million times in a lifetime.


It has been looked into. You're not contributing anything new.

While doog's take down in the post above is nicely done, I really liked his earlier step by step tutorial on how to verify your rolls on PD.   The closing paragraph should be posted to every thread where some loser complains of cheating on a provably fair dice site!

Thanks dooglus and good luck to everyone!

you always lose in gambling sites. it is the only way they can stay alive

Ah, a flashback to when I had a little more patience... :)