Bitcoin Forum

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http://private-person.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/gandhi-first-they-ignore-you.jpg



Guess where we are now  :)

That's disgusting that they did that why do they fear evolution? Bitcoin is the future.

This is scary but bitcoin will persevere. As long as we don't dump bitcoin and come crawling to the banks there will be nothing they can do.

I talked with my credit union before hand and they said everything would be fine. Hope they don't lie.

Were you oblivious to this fact? This has been known for well over a year now.

Very few banks are bitcoin friendly. A few credit unions might be, but if you openly admit that it's a bitcoin business, you'll get instant shutdown for most banks. Can you disclose a bit more info as to how you alerted them it was for bitcoin? Also, banks might close accounts if they suspect ANYTHING suspicious that they can't confirm. For example, receiving too much cash deposits, and withdrawing cash in close intervals right after you deposit. If they can't figure out what the transactions are for, they'll just simply close it.

Was your business structured as an LLC or more like a sole proprietorship type business? I just want to understatand why they are going after your personal credit card as well.

Did you use your account to help you facilitate bitcoin trades? If so did you tell them that you are a MSB as they need you to tell them this if you are one (you are if you are a trader that trades with individuals).

I think you left out the part about what exactly your business does.

If your banker could not explain why the account was closed, why did you not ask to speak to someone who was able to do so?  

Perfect image. It's true, banks are afraid that Bitcoin and it's decentralized nature will compete with them.

I've heard this happening way too much. I have an account at wells fargo and used to transfer my bitcoins from mining to my personal account. So far, I haven't had an issue, but I have only transfered a little bit since last December, before banks really knew what bitcoin was. The best thing to do is never mention bitcoin, I wonder if coinbase is on their radar.

We all want banks to eventually go away, but right now  we have to have them, no other way to turn our coin into fiat when needed. Well, there is, but its a pain. Buy gold, have it shipped, then sell gold at pawn shop. That may be the future of selling coin, but for now, Im hodling but it would nice to know that my account is safe..

A review of your posting history reveals you aren't just trading through exchanges but also sell directly. I'm guessing you made no efforts to be in compliance with AML/KYC laws. No wonder you were banned.

So it appears like wire transfers to exchanges might possibly be the culprit.

Bitpay, Coinbase or Overstock can apply for their own banking license if the banks are stupid enough to close their accts. We're talking millions of dollars monthly here.

Gee talk about ignorance, why did you think its ok to do what you do? Did you have MSB license?

I see that your business name is "USA Crypto Coins LLC" so it's more than BTC, and means more misunderstanding to your bank. I'm sorry it 's happening to you, but it's useful to the others. People working with BTC shall stay away from Wells Fargo.

Sad to read this, because it will make things a lot harder for the people affected in the short-midterm. On the other hand - nice to read this, because banks are starting to take themselves out of business with such behavior. Banks generating pissed off ex-customers will only help bitcoin adoption.

Bitcoin is the future. Bank can either adapt or die. It seems that most choose the latter option.

ya.ya.yo!

Is this a joke? You obviously have not been keeping up with recent legalities when it comes to buying/selling bitcoins. Our US government is confused as hell when categorizing bitcoin. One branch (IRS) claims it as property, hence will get taxed as such, but another branch (FINCEN) deems it as a currency.

What do you think happened to Mike Caldwell and his Casascius coins? Do you think he just stopped making them because he got bored of making money? This is exactly why TitanBTC now has license and is regulated by FINCEN before selling their coins.

This is happening a lot in Australia as well. We've been approached by our bank but thankfully they've decided we are not a risk. Two out of our four big banks are anti-bitcoin! I think they can see their business model being threatened.

to turtle hurricane.

have you in the last few months ever done any:
1)localbitcoin trades
2)localbitcoin trades where the other party then attempted a wire transfer reversal on you (chargeback scammer tried to abuse you)
3)exchange transfers but never done localbitcoins
4)exchange transfers but never done and localbitcoins
5)other bitcoin related service(please list)

if exchanges were used, could you mention which main exchange you used especially the one used mostly near to the time of the 'decision'

i ask this as i am trying to build up a list of patterns from people finding banks not being friendly. to figure out what is triggering the decisions to close accounts

feel free to PM me details if you dont want the services used made public

This happens all the time unfortunately. Banks are scared silly of Bitcoin.  Cryptocurrency is a direct and tangible threat to the fractional reserve banking ponzi scheme...

thats true, but then there are scammers like yourself moriarty, which make your statements a little hypocritical

From my experience (2 closed bank accounts), banks just don't have time and effort to deal with those security charges by the finance inspection organization, so they shutdown your account to buy some peace

If you buy and sell bitcoins privately, you will get many strange scam and payments from illegal activities like stolen accounts, selling drug or weapon, and money laundering scheme. Naturally the law enforcement will find your account info during some mission and ask bank why you are connected with such people

Since you don't personally know these guys, so you are not responsible, banks security department can't charge you, but they would simply shutdown your account to avoid further trouble

I don't think they really care threat of bitcoin, bitcoin still worth so little, not worth worrying. If bitcoin really takes off and become some star investment, they can even make money out of it (providing physical secure storage, exchange, insurance etc...they have very strong security infrastructure, which bitcoin community are lacking)

johny J:
did you ever have any wire transfer reversal requests made against you by 'chargeback scammers' or are you hypothesizing potential reasons?

Each country has different laws and regulation for bitcoin, but individuals complying with government rules is another matter. In the US, any time you make a capital gain, you should pay taxes on it to the IRS. Do you think most people even bother to do this? Do you personally file taxes when doing bitcoin transactions? So yes, a lot of people do not comply with capital gain taxes, nor MSB license. And it's not "according to me", I do not make up these regulations.

When you do small transactions for buying and selling btc for leisure, then it's probably ok to not be registered through FINCEN. But the fact that you have a LLC business dedicated to crypto trading means that you should get a license. It's going through a BUSINESS account, not a personal account.

"You don't really need it [MSB] unless you're a big company like Coinbase or Bitpay." <-- Can you please cite where you got this info, or is it your own opinion?

so if you never done any banking involving bitcoin. then how on earth did the banks link you as being a bitcoiner??

after all they can only stop it for bitcoin purposes, if they knew you were into bitcoins. so explain to me how you became linked as being a bitcoin user??

ok cheers for your explanation.

in the UK i told my bank manager (local branch not the HQ) that my business plan was bitcoin related and so far 'touch wood' my bank manager loves me, and had no issues.

other people in the UK fall into 2 categories why their accounts were stopped

1. they didnt mention it was bitcoin related but got wire transfer reversal scammed and the scammer mentioned bitcoin which made the victims (account holder) account frozen due to an inconsistency as to what his 'business' was

2. the standard income (job/social security payment) was small vs the amount of funds going back and forth which could be deemed as laundering.

not many were having accounts shut down purely on the basses of mentioning bitcoin as many of them had active accounts for a couple years with full banks knowledge of it being bitcoin related.

i guess that in america just mentioning bitcoin when opening a new account must be an issue. especially if you never been a victim to a chargeback or were dealing with more money movement then your normal weekly income.

one last question.

ever been paypal chargeback scammed, which put your paypal into negative balance where you had to fill it up using your business account because of a paypal demand for funds?

Did you do a lot of ACH between banks?

That alone will raise a lot of red flag even if you are not dealing with bitcoin.

im prepared to think that the reason for turtlehurricane's scenario to be due purely based on mentioning that the account's business plan was bitcoin related, as appose to any actually money movements flagging it..

but then i keep reading turtle hurricane say that


yet also saying


so i am hesitant to rule out the chance that it could be related to a flag due to a funds movement..

and i think others who are trying to figure out if there are any patterns to bank closures, have picked up on this point. he either used the bank account to send or receive money. or the account never had a single dime in it, ever.. it cant be both

 

Don't do any business at all with any Too Big too Fail Banks & Corporations!
===============================================

 Don't Reward Failure with Bailouts and Bonuses!

 Real Capitalism never has and never will reward failure.


Welcome to Corporate Fascism and centrally planned communistic tendencies.
=================================================
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list


STOP aiding and abetting the worst enemies of Capitalism!
=====================================

 Switch over to local and regional banks, or credit unions, that DIDN'T receive any bailouts.
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list

 If your financial institution is on the following list it is your civic duty to close those accounts:
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list


 They LOST.

 They Failed.
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list

 They must be allowed to fail. Same for the shareholders & bondholders.

 And stronger hands must be allowed to take over the reins.

 What part of any of this do you folks not comprehend?

 Instead we drag this Greater Depression out for decades and enable the same losers to stay
in power and control, while being made 100% whole in their illegal hordes of wealth that they
all rightfully lost back by the end of 2008.

 GET REAL.
=======

 Reality Check:
==========

 No one is going to bail YOU out should you fail. Nor should they. And nothing is too big to fail.
In fact all the banks are far too large to ever be bailed out. Same for GM & Chrysler, and scores
more. Nothing is ever to big to fail except society itself, and maybe...certain smaller depositors
as a safeguard against corporate misbehavior. http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list


A Lesson in Capitalism
==============

 Capitalism is like Nature in that it is self balancing. It's the finest thing ever devised, and it's
currently no longer practiced in the USA, the U.K., and Europe.

 The biggest banks were all found guilty of serious felonies. So far no one has been brought
to any sense of justice, let alone sent to the failure bin. Mere fines that amount to chump change
for these corporate felons is further insult to injury. http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list


What to do:
========

 CLOSE ALL YOUR ACCOUNTS at Failed Institutions until their turned over to stronger hands.
All shareholders and bondholders must also fail too. No one is above the law. No one must be
allowed to be above the law. http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list

 And stick all that nonsense straight up your commie/fascist/corporate asshole if you don't 100%
agree. Also prepare to be financially destroyed along with your corporate masters,
You corporate parasitical maggots! http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list

(if you believe in bailouts for failure your a parasitical maggot).
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list

 Capitalism died along with America a long time ago. While we were all sleepwalking.
=====================================================

 Wake UP and do your civic duties. Or soon you will find out first hand how awful corporate fascism
and centrally planned communistic planning truly is for yourselves, if not already.

example: The Fed is a centrally planned committee of private, criminal banksters, anserable to no one,
whom are your real masters, as well as the USA's masters until told otherwise. Their your centrally
planned phony-communist/neo-fascist masters. Get over it. That's the real truth you cannot yet accept.


 CAPITALISM NEVER REWARDS FAILURE. Their Losers. Capitalism never rewards Losers & crooks.
=============================================================

 What next? Maybe more Bailouts & Bonuses for more failure just to add insult to injury? O wait, they
will insiston that too,  just to keep their underlings from squealing on their own corporate bosses by crying
foul.  Or instead straight out robbing your bank accounts with Bank "bail-in's". Yes, that's next. Brace to be
robbed, AGAIN, one way or another. Until finally we decide not to allow such grave injustices and harms by
rewarding any more FAILURES.

 What will it take to get it through all your thick heads? Really? What will it take?

 CAPITALISM NEVER REWARDS FAILURE.
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list


 Satoshi Nakamoto with his Bitcoin genius creation understands this.


Bitcoin is Monetary Freedom.

but technically you did receive money.. the $9k got into the account somehow.. lol

so $1800 a month for 5 months, did the bank know your standard income and was standard income below $1800 a month?
was any of the funding paypal due to a negative balance that caused paypal to request funding due to a chargeback scammer?

i dont need to know numbers, just yes or no will do. and sorry if getting personal, we simply want to get an idea of circumstances that could highlight banks decisions, rather than speculate based on lack of info

Well I don't think you need to know this level of detail for account closure. The mere fact that turtlehurricane named his business "USA Crypto Coins LLC" makes it pretty obvious to what he does. C'mon, banks are not that dumbfounded. By now, they're well aware of bitcoin and crypto currency in general.

Majority of the gnomes that work at the physical branch still won't have a clue what bitcoin is. It's the ones in the back office (customers can't reach them) that has the authority of make the decision on account closures based on what they see. These guys are the ones that are fully aware and trained to spot for certain patterns and types of activity. Your business name just makes it so much more easier for them.

real bitcoin businesses dont need bank accounts.

Err.. How will we pay our suppliers? Or our couriers? Or our rent? Staff accept BTC but that's the easy one.

Couriers for shipping our products, not driving us around :P

The issue for us is that we deal with suppliers who do not accept bitcoin. It's ironic really. We purchase $10,000USD+ worth of products each week using our bank account and it is significantly more expensive and slower than using BTC. Bitcoin could potentially revolutionize B2B sales and we are pushing for our suppliers to get involved. Unfortunately only one has listened to us and is now accepting bitcoin. The others simply do not understand it and have shown no interest in wanting to change.

I think the true moral of this story is do not open a bank account in the US, period. Even if you are in the US, there are still plenty of non-US banks that will take you as a customer.

Govt, banks, the police... seems like everyone has forgotten who is serving who.

I love how they always close your account and refuse to actually give you a reason why.

It's for liability issues. If they give you a reason, you can use it to sue them. If they don't disclose the reason, it's much harder to legally sue them. This info is straight from the horse's mouth.

Bitcoin has come this far purely due to the determination of its users and we guarantee, it won't falter. hang in their brother 8) 8)

I guess the only way to go is to stay underground. I have bank accounts in several countries, and I think none of the banks I'm using knows I'm doing some business with BTC. Actually, only a very little part of my business is in BTC, and I avoid making large movements, only small wires or cash deposits and withdrawals, so it would be hard to notice anything.

Looks like you are considered competition

Several times, the account owner have no idea his account is hacked and the hacker send money to me to buy coins, if their reversal request comes late, bitcoin has already been sent, then the hacker get away

I don't think banks care about bitcoin as a competitive threat. The big banks don't make money with 'transaction' banking. Most of them lose money on this but do it because they have to. They make money on loans, product fees (like mortgage arrangement fees) and investment banking.

If bitcoin became a major currency they would just love to provide currency hedging and all their other products off the back of it.

But what they are truly terrified of is money laundering and sanctions. Several major banks have been fined many billions of dollars this year over not doing what they should in this area. As it stands the bitcoin world just isn't up to scratch in complying with these rules. If a bank facilitates it they are liable.

So my guess is that some banks have decided that the risk profile of any bitcoin business, especially ones that provide bitcoin to fiat exchange, are too risky to deal with.

Those that are well backed and have professional staff and controls that are proven to be good enough (maybe coinbase say) will get an exemption.

It seems harsh but honestly it's how the entire financial system deals with any money broking business. I've seen it first hand because I've consulted for companies and banks to help them comply with the rules.

Really makes you think whether all the regular banks are afraid of Bitcoin! I mean those are big big big banks and they're afraid that their customers get involved with such a, relatively, small and experimental currency!

yes because they are not stupid after all. they know bitcoin is the future.

A great idea for a new kind of B2B business would be to offer business banking as a service. (BBaaS) The only way to really do this safely is to have a trusted company. For instance, Coinbase could offer that service and people wouldn't think twice. They could charge a low fee which you could add to your markup. If you run an exchange, then the BBaaS company could provide you with an API to charge the customer's credit cards. Cash couldn't be accepted even locally unless you want to hold onto that cash in your own business which isn't generally safe in large quantities.

I'm not sure if Coinbase provides a portion of their API as a way to buy Bitcoin. If they do, then you could charge the customer's credit card with the API (would have to be HTTPS) and you'd get your Bitcoin credited to your account.

bank can only do business with static account (1% of retrieve) and high amount on here.
client are not dumb ... bitcoin is better in any way.

so bank close account to afraid client.
it's like dog with sheep ... dog don't eat sheep but sheep have afraid of ...

don't be a sheep.
evolve.

This is true, however I think they also usually give a very narrow reason if they do give a reason for closing your account. They probably also have a limited number of possible reasons to give. If why they closed your account doesn't fit any of their reasons they would just say it is because of "business reasons". It is bureaucratic red tape.

If the account paperwork/contract says that they can close your account for any reason, then there is nothing that you can do to stop them from closing. But, even if the contract says that you will hold them harmless for the account closing, this can't include if the way they close the account damages you.

Seems to me that you said or referred to something about your credit. If the method they use damages your credit, you need to find the link between the closing and the damaged credit - the report to the credit bureaus - that has caused the credit bureaus to drop your credit rating, thereby damaging you.

Once you have done this, start a letter writing campaign, to get to the bank person who caused the damage. When you find out who this person is, contact the person in his/her "human being" capacity, rather than the corporate banking capacity, explaining the damage done, and gently demanding a reversal of the damages. Similar can be done with the credit bureau, but do the bank first if there is a way. If you can't find the person (because they cover for him/her), then go after the top person who covers, often the CFO.

If the banker makes it all good to your satisfaction, fine. If he/she doesn't, start a person to person - man to man, human to human - law suit the Karl Lentz way to break the corporate veil, and to bypass corporate attorneys. You will need to study to determine what to do. Or contact Karl in person.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5duR4OvEHHxOSdEZhANETw

http://www.broadmind.org/

http://www.unkommonlaw.co.uk/

http://www.myprivateaudio.com/Karl-Lentz.html

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=127469&cmd=tc

:)

You really have no clue as to why they closed your accounts. I think the answer is in the above quote from your OP.

some people are already thinking up such an idea, swapping BTC-E dollar (using btc-e codes) for coins in other exchanges as a way to speed up arbitraging without having to use bank accounts or having to wait X confirms for coins.

this use to be done via bitinstant to swap mtgox codes with btc-e codes for the dollar swaps, and it worked very well

They are allowed to discriminate against anyone as long as it is not because of age, gender, religion, national origin, or family status.

Did you use your account for trading in BTC? If so then they may have seen a lot of deposits and withdrawals, making it look like you were either a MSB or were trying to kite checks/your balance.