Bitcoin Forum

Apple is going to release a mobile payment system, secured with touch ID, and with VISA and American Express.
In other words, it will make the transaction much faster and much more secure.
And that my friends, is a threat to bitcoin

edit: source: http://www.cnet.com/news/apple-amex-teaming-on-iphone-6-payments-system-report-says/

centralized, close this useless thread.

Fiat issued by huge non-transparent centralized entities wrapped in Apples walled garden? I think I'll pass...

To be fair, at this time, one of the principle uses of bitcoin is to send/spend money instantly. Anything that makes doing that simpler, faster and more convenient is relevant. A product/app/etc does not have to do everything that bitcoin potentially can to be relevant.

And, ahem, the bitcoin network is quite centralized. I hate to break it to you.

Well those are comments that make me think and realize how narrow minded a lot of Bitcoin proponents are. This forum really tends to become an echo chamber sometimes! This is a threat, because it is a user-friendly and simple system, that's much more likely to be accepted by the broad public!

Hope nobody's going to fall for Apple shit.

Wake me up when apple makes an open decentralized trust less system where non apple users in the US can send money to non apple users in Iran instantly with a very short confirmation time, without the possibility of any government to stop it. A system that will survive even the death of Apple itself. Until then, meh.

edit
Also, a system where Apple isn't skimming the top.


Compared to an apple server center, that statement is a pure joke. I think it is safe to say that the US gov will have some kind of stop button on transactions they don't like, and access to all personal information of the users. So, yeah.

It will be shiny and easy to use on the outside, and there will surely be many things regarding usability to learn from it, but in the end it is nothing but a pig with lipstick. In the short term there will also likely be many apple users buying new apple products and latte with it, but in a greater picture this apple system will be nothing truly revolutionary and interesting.

Oh, many will.

It is a threat to bitcoin. But it will get the great unwashed used to the concept of using their phone as a wallet. It could end up bringing more users into the bitcoinsphere.

NFC, androids had it for years so finally Apple is ready to compete.

Has nothing to do with Crypto adoption.

In theory, that's great. I highly doubt this represents even tiny minority of transactions. So let's talk about what's really relevant. Again: "A product/app/etc does not have to do everything that bitcoin potentially can to be relevant."


The point is that calling bitcoin decentralized or trustless at this point is premature, if not entirely inaccurate.

And don't you see? "Shiny and easy to use on the outside" is exactly what most consumers want and what bitcoin cannot offer at present. Get over it -- bitcoin is a niche. You want to go mainstream or not?

and yet Apple opened it's app store to Bitcoin wallets, haha.

and still losing market share to Android:

http://tr1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2014/03/20/23b321bf-04e4-4840-9c74-82122008a165/resize/620x485/eac3a1e203aeb2861c64265fd4d13ab2/Android.iOS.MS.png (http://tr1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2014/03/20/23b321bf-04e4-4840-9c74-82122008a165/resize/620x485/eac3a1e203aeb2861c64265fd4d13ab2/Android.iOS.MS.png)

Should i sell my car also? I think the new payment system will compete not only with bitcoin but with my car as well.
What do you guys think? I mean it's APPLE...  ::)

Sure, and that is probably where the bitcoin eco system can learn a thing or two from Apple and their future system. There is no shame is borrowing great ideas, Apple do it all the time too. If Apple decides to make a true crypto currency that they can't control in any way, I would be all for it, but that is highly unlikely since their nature is to skim the top and have full control. It is simply fundamentally against everything that Apple is
, to be open, free (not as in gratis) and not in control.


Of course people want a system that is shiny and easy to use, but there is no reason why that can't be bitcoin in the future. On top of that bitcoin will offer things that Apple will never want/be able to offer with their system.

But yeah, in the short run it sounds highly likely that Apple will take a leading role with their online payment system, but it will never be nothing more than a better Paypal.

I'm not saying it's not a threat but you have to wonder what prompted this move..(Bitcoin).  I think if Bitcoin developers continue to make Bitcoin more more adaptable and simplistic this Apple news wouldn't be so "big".  That is a simple way to attract users and compete with the likes of Apple.  I don't really think Bitcoin is very far from being able to consider development for the end user who has no interest in the nuts and bolts of cryptology when making a transaction. Applications that are easy to use for the general public and mobile is what is needed, just needs more  something like this could be a minor setback from a big picture perspective..  Once people can see how Bitcoin works they would have real incentive to learn the inner workings of the technology but not beforehand in my opinion.

Apple banned Bitcoin once, they put it back in their app store after a few guns were shot
I'm not too concerned about this mobile platform bitcoin will still remain a strong competitor.

But it won't be long now Sept 9 is soon.

Apple is partnering with American Express, Visa, and MasterCard on a mobile wallet system expected to be introduced with the iPhone 6 on September 9, according to two different reports.

Smart move by Apple even though I hate Apple.
Problem is that they will need to work together with banks or get a bank license themselves.
Bitcoin will survive because it will remain more anonymous.

Apple would do better if they create bitcoin integration and take commission on each transaction applehipsters make.

I have never purchased an Apple product and I strongly suspect I never will.

I am not afraid of Apple, I am afraid of the people that using their products !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZcIa_lGCZg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZcIa_lGCZg)

This Chain’s iOS API and app looks interesting.
http://www.coindesk.com/chains-api-lets-sign-bitcoin-transactions-fingerprint/

I feel you I hate Apple too. I found an ipad once and must admit it does work nicely. I do hate the fact that Apple products come with a eula in which you sell your soul and they want your creditcard number right after you boot the device  :(

Still wouldnt buy an overpriced apple product.

this has nothing to do with crypto or bitcoin.

90 % of Apple users wont get into crypto/btc anyway, because they dont even know btc and sure not understand it.

People will only get into btc and stop this mainstream shit when its already too late.

Said it before, the public won't be driving the next bubble. Frontrunning money will. Public comes later, after the big boys are nice and settled, right after a media hype campaign.

I got a cheapo ipod for christmas once. It's alright, especially when traveling.

This is classic Apple security theatre and using it for Bitcoin is very dangerous because of the false sense of security it gives. Apple's fingerprint security theatre was broken by the Chaos Computer Club over 11 months ago. http://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid (http://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2013/ccc-breaks-apple-touchid). It is actually far safer to dispense with all of this nonsense and treat small amounts of XBT on a mobile phone for daily use like cash in an old fashioned wallet and simply accept the fact that if the device is stolen then so is the XBT. 

To secure XBT properly one needs to start with GNU/Linux using an encrypted /home partition or full disk encryption, with a very secure password. Then on top of this one builds proper wallet security and passwords etc.

Most people do not, and will not, ever, use linux. You people need to get past that. I'm on windows, I keep a small part of my coins on a hot wallet on the same computer I surf porn and play flash games with, and so far nothing has been stolen. THAT is the standard we need to pursue.

GNU/Linux desktop users are under 2% so you do have a point. It is also the case that the top 1% control 39% of the worlds wealth. http://www.cnbc.com/id/100780163 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100780163). It may well turn out that one of the impacts of Bitcoin is that a person's choice in operating system software also has a high degree of correlation with their net worth. I am perfectly fine with that. What I must say is that if one waited for Apple to give IOS users permission to use Bitcoin those Apple users would pay between 400 and 700 USD per XBT while those of us like myself, who were very critical of Apple's back in 2011 and 2012 were busy buying XBT between at 2 and 6 USD per XBT. As for Windows I was busy removing Bitcoin stealing / mining malware from Windows computers back in 2011 for users who had no idea what Bitcoin was, yet they were mining Bitcoin!

I have no problem promoting Bitcoin to users of DRM infected propriety operating systems such as those sold by Apple and Microsoft, after all, us GNU/Linux users have to sell our XBT at a 10000% or more markup to someone. ;) I do feel however that I have an ethical and moral responsibility to warn those same users of the risks they are taking and the opportunities they are missing by their choice in operating system software.

Just wait for the roadside billboards to start giving you personalized ads as you drive by.

Simple: Root the device, break the DRM and lock out the junk ads.

I'll never own iphone so that meany nothing to me.

reality bites!

Firstly, I don't think bitcoin is going away long term.

Short term though, stuff like this must slow adoption.

Bitcoin 'solves' a bunch of problems. Practical money transmission issues centred on convenience as well as issues surrounding the nature of centralised fiat currency. Pretending that the whole world cares about the second set is delusional, mostly people care about the first. Mostly people aren't even aware of the second. If you're sample is "people on bitcointalk" you are doing it wrong.

All ideology aside, practically day to day even I still care most about the first set, and I'm totally up to speed with the second set!

I'll undoubtedly 'fall for Apple shit' because right now, most of my life still centres around taking part in today's fiat based economy paying for stuff with fiat currency and only occasionally converting money to and from bitcoin to buy/sell/hold.

Why wouldn't I take advantage of something that makes it easier to use my fiat. If the risk to fiat is it becomes worthless, then why do i care if it is worthless in a jar, a bank or my iPhone? At that point my BTC bails me out.

Take a reality check sometime, bitcoin is coming yes, but in the meantime there is a lot of stuff to play out with the current system. It's not going to collapse overnight, not anytime soon.

+1 to the echo chamber comment.

+1 insightful, instead of knee jerk reactionary groupthink.

Egocentrism is characterized by preoccupation with one's own internal world. Egocentrics regard themselves and their own opinions or interests as being the most important or valid. To them, self-relevant information is seen to be more important in shaping one’s judgments than are thoughts about others and other-relevant information

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egocentrism

FTFY


Not a threat to bitcoin. If anything, it can only slow down the adoption. If people are satisfied with their fiat payment systems, they're less likely to be looking for alternative. But bitcoin wins in a long term with its key features: decentralisation and trust-less.

fuck apple. They compete with us, they fucking LOSE.

This same technology has been available on samasungs Galaxy phones, but i haven't heard too much fan fair about it. its supposed to use the NFC to pay for things easier. but paying with bitcoin is still much easier and much cheaper.. not a threat to bitcoin at all..

Sell Apple stock you mean?  ;)

The problem is that it only work on apple smartphone and not everyone in the world is having one..

Not everyone, but that doesn't matter. Statistics show that people who own Apple products do spend a lot more on the App Store already than, say, Android people. People want Apple devices. And that's reason enough for merchants to adopt that technology!

I guess Bitcoin may do quite a drop down as soon as Apple unveils those plans officially. It is effectively one of the use cases of Bitcoin, but a lot better when it comes to ease of use and safety for the consumer. Maybe Bitcoin can learn from it, though. The core technology behind Bitcoin remains unbeaten!

i was a bit worried about apple doing some kind of itunes stunt after they learned what napster was capable of. was afraid they planned the same with some imoney crypto.

now they are teaming up with the dinosaurs. their crypto research compartment lost the internal battle. good for us.

i am not worried anymore.

It's pretty much the nail in the coffin for adoption at the average joe level. We will always have each other though!  :-*

People always compare bitcoin to corporations and their payment systems.
There is no real incentive for one corporation to adopt the system of another.
Likewise why should any corporation create a system where they do not profit at all?

It makes no difference if Apple or Google has their own "awesome" payment network. Bitcoin offers an opportunity to bridge different ecosystems, it is more or less agnostic to who or what uses it.
That's why it is often compared to http or tcp/ip. You can build stuff on top of it for your own use case.

...not worth a shit...

Apple, Visa, Mastercard,

it will be expensive and only bring profit to large corporations.

it will probably catch on, because the world has plenty of retards to fuel these kind of things, but it will be no match to bitcoin, as bitcoin has a completely different target audience.

Google checkout failed to get market share because google store is a failure. And ebay is doing all it can to ban google checkout to be used on ebay.

Apple iphone store on the other hand is a success. They can force users to use it and not their competition.

It constantly amazes me that anyone could be so stupid and gullible as to actually give money to Apple Corporation.

That situation was from 2006. Google checkout was a project more focused on e-commerce, and was ultimately discontinued. Google wallet is a newer project, that has a feature that allows users to checkout in retail stores via NFC. It seems very similar to this new apple payment system.

The future of brick-and-mortar payments is away from secure payment terminals and towards a mobile solution.  The consumer should see the merchant's payment request on a device he trusts (e.g., his phone), and authorize this payment if correct (e.g., using biometrics).  Credit card details could be transferred encrypted (for example using a Diffie-Hellman shared secret) or, better yet, the mobile device could sign a bitcoin transaction (without revealing its private keys).  Secret keys (or card details) could be stored in a secure computing environment on new processors, safe from malware.  If the merchant's payment request is signed (using some sort of certificate system) so that the user can verify that the payment is indeed going to the right entity, then we've almost got an almost ideal solution.  

Apple's touch-ID combined with NFC is a great platform to begin this much-needed transition away from the archaic payment terminal.  The NFC component links the mobile device with the merchant's register, and the touch ID links the individual with the mobile device.  Displaying the price on the user's phone reduces the risk of fraudulent overcharges.  Logistically, merchant's who already have NFC payment terminals may not require new hardware as NFC devices (including sigsafe (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=610453.0)) are based on the ISO/IEC 14443-4 standard to ensure interoperability.  Speaking with a former Versapay executive, I learned that the software running on the terminals can be update remotely (subject to extensive certification and testing).  Given Apple's immense power, I'd expect that all these details are taken care of and at t=0 numerous merchant terminals across the country will just start to work with iWallet.  But this also means that in a more distant future, another software upgrade could seamlessly enable NFC bitcoin payments across the country.  

I am on the fence whether this will be short/medium-term helpful or hurtful to bitcoin adoption.  The payment system will attract media attention, and I'm sure Apple will do a good job of making it simple to use.  But it won't address any of the problems outlined in Satoshi's white paper:


Furthermore, the Apple hardware (touchID + NFC + secure computing) is more suited to bitcoin than the legacy payment networks, so we should be thankful that we'll have new hardware to write bitcoin apps for.  Long term we are evolving to an open global payment system, and for this electronic cash is critical.  This is the age of disintermediation.  


I should also add that I really hope the iPhone has 2-way NFC like the Samsung phones (so the phone can act as a NFC passive target or as a NFC initiator), but I'm doubtful.  It would be better for bitcoin if it's two-way NFC.

Isn't this exactly like Google Wallet, only a year or two later?

(It falls perfectly in line with everything else that Apple does just because Google did it first, from notifications and multitasking/intents in Android to all the cloud stuff. But it makes sense, since Google is probably the only credible competitor to Apple right now.)

Anyway, we all know how Google Wallet killed Bitcoin .. right?

(I think it's going to bring more people into mobile payments, and that can only be good for Bitcoin.)

You mean the same Apple that leave a brute-force system open and got its cloud hacked?  ::) ::)

Better SELL when apple competes?

Sure, in the meantime try to ask Jennifer Lawrence what she thinks.... :)

Only a small percentage of really well off people can afford apple products. It's not that much of a threat if most people are using android, or a shit "feature" phone.

I don't think that's how it works.  If my bank gets robbed/some ATM gets hacked, I don't lose any money.  I don't even lose money if someone cards me.  Or even if my PayPal gets compromised.  I don't need to worry about the nuts & bolts.
Unlike Bitcoin, there are entities backing those payment services.

Shit, there are entities? I have bad experiences with entities.

And those entities are profitable. Even after paying for all of the theft and fraud, they are still making a killing. Guess where that money comes from....

Those "entities" are great for chargeback scams, aren't they?...

Gr8 B8 M8

No seriously, do you believe that a company that can't even secure their cloud storage services (I'm looking at you iCloud) that are by default used by all of their devices is going to compete with bitcoin?

The point is crappy AAPL security is not an argument against using AAPL e-cash.  If they get hax0rd, I lose nothing.
Your bad experience with those institutions is no more of an argument against them than some hipster's bad experience with guns is a reason to ban guns.

@Bitcopia:  Of course banks make money, learn to Capitalism.  Banks provide a service, they're not free, they're not charities.  Children know this.
Unless you think AAPL is going to charge more than other payment methods, I'm cool with them not giving me a special discount "because banks make money, and AAPL is Communism."  

*The point is not to simply make *any* complaints against AAPL, but ones that stick, that makes sense.  Otherwise we just look stupid.

Please read what you're responding to.  It makes no difference to me if AAPL has shit security and a bunch of btards got to fap to shitty celeb pr0nz because of it.  I don't care, just like I don't care if my bank gets robbed--my money is safe.  If AmEx, who is partnering with AAPL, thinks their security is ass, that's their problem--they will be covering the potential losses.
Not an argument against people using AAPL coin.

Who cares?
A payment system attached to a credit card is nothing new. Just the Apple fan boys will bite that, for the rest that's just another PayPal.

^Pretty much this.

As for banks and stuff, you just have 0's and 1's. Your a fool to think that if everyone ran to your bank right now, how much cash you think your going to get?

^Gotcha.  My savings account is not kept in bundles of used 10s and 20s?  Ones and zeros you say?  You young people with your crazy souped-up Babbage engines.  What will you think of next!

in germany banks hold only 2% . if only 3% of the customers freak out... epic bank holiday.  :o

I agree. Especially since apple allows bitcoin wallets on their devices and on the app store the overall adoption of bitcoin will likely (IMO) not be affected.

So... you think your savings are stored at the bank and they pay you interest...  ;D ;D ;D

Ain't that how it is?  I figured I bring my foldin' money to the bank, they stack it in neat little bundles, tie the bundles with bits of twine, carry them into that big shiny vault they got, add it all up nice and even on black Burroughs adding machine, and ...pay me for lettin' them do it.
But now you tell me it ain't so ???

Kills the prospects of new blood outside of certain degenerate gamblers and super-tech nerds. Yea, BTC does a lot of great things this doesn't do... but this kills the prospects of new blood outside of certain degenerate gamblers.

old models of closed source and structured by centralist state legislation cannot into compete with BITCOIN Tech.

Apple is a centralized piece of shit. With the recent leaks of celebs pictures people is going to realize (and when i say people i say mainstream) how much of a dumb idea centralized things are, specially a CLOSED SOURCE CENTRALIZED CURRENCY or similar shit apple could come up to try to compete with Bitcoin. Absolutely bollocks.

Yes, I guess the recent hacking of i-cloud does post reputational risks to Apple. The trust factor on bitcoin might just go up a few notches.  :)

We are in the process of centralizing under state legislation... this post is a couple years late. Ooops!!!

No we are not. Nobody will have state issued bitcoins.

LOL, yet everyone I know has an Apple Iphone 5,5C,5S, or a Ipad, Ipad mini, etc.

The only reason Apple may be even a slight threat to Bitcoin is because public who are not fully aware or do not understand bitcoin too well will more than likely go for what Apple is offering over Bitcoin. Bitcoin needs more exposure and needs more people on board and the public needs to see that bitcoin is not as bad as what some make it out to be.

what has apple done since steve jobs has passed away? i don't follow them so thoroughly, but it doesn't seem like they've done anything of significance. imo, if they don't come out with anything groundbreaking, and top it off with a few flops, their stock could go down a good deal.

They are slowly dying... without their salesman they are aiming to resume to be what they were.
And some groundbreaking stuff means nothing, Jobs invented nothing was just a good salesman.

i
i think they are too, but that remains to be seen. their stock has still been rising for years since he died. it's just that i see them holding stockpiles of cash and not really investing anything, so i don't think they're going to continue being innovative. it's just ipads and iphones annually, with insignificant technological advancements.

Apple has nothing innovative left for their pretentious customer base *except* this new technology. If Apple bought Trezor and included it into iPhones, it would be their biggest win. They could sell high priced POS systems for their computer boutiques where customers can by a coffee for the price of what a poor asian family needs to eat for a week.

If they pull this new technology off. They don't need another innovation for at least 5 years.

Integrating their user based and making it easy for consumers to pay on star buck and McDonald is huge. Even bigger than the the integrating of Ebay and paypal.

Sure a few more iPhone versions will come out, not to mention the iFap, posited to introduce Teledildonics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teledildonics) to the masses.

People is pretty stupid, but i dont think they are enough to buy iMoney  ::)

how can apple compete with bitcoins, bitcoins are decentralized

Funny thread title on Reddit:

Apple can't protect our pictures, so lets have them protect our money instead! (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2fknr8/apple_cant_protect_our_pictures_so_lets_have_them/)

You are confusing apples and oranges.

Makes me sick to read Apple explanation.
They failed miserabily by not setting password policies and then pin their fault on the total newbies that are their users.

I've just read that there was no time-lock for brute force attempts. Classical Apple.

In my mind, and I think most others, Bitcoin is in competition with fiat, not with certain fiat-processors.

VISA, Mastercard or whatever is great for using fiat. However, fiat is not a viable long term solution for humankind.

I completey with the title of this thread.  I strongly suggest all of you start so slowly sell your apple stocks..  Time has come and the writing is on the wall so put the money into bitcoin so you now crying later.  Thanks for the great advice OP. ;)

Going short on AAPL may well be a smart move in this market, especially when one considers the utter incompetence and complete disregard for user's security demonstrated by Apple in the "celebrity nude photos hack". I mean allowing the brute forcing of passwords with no account lock-down period. This is 2014 not 1964. My thoughts are that going long on XBT is the way smarter move just as was the case in early September 2012.

All Apple is doing is reinventing the credit card.  The benefits of BTC are that because it's decentralized, it's cheaper than any other payment method could be and can't be censored.  Good luck sending $10,000 to somebody on the other side of the world for no cost in seconds with Apple's currency ;)

Not to mention the fact that if they get hacked then your CC information could be stolen.  With BTC you are the only person in charge of your money, and that is a huge benefit in today's world with hackers always looking for a way to make a quick buck

But Apple is one of the premier consumer technology companies in the world, their products could never get....oh wait

Oh my god... I just realized that iMoney will be backed by Frappucinos.

This is true only if one uses a Free Libre Open Source Operating Software system such as GNU/Linux to store and / or enter the XBT private keys. If one uses a propriety operating system infected with DRM and linked to a cloud service such as those sold by Apple and Microsoft then the risk that the XBT private keys suffer the same fat as those celebrity nude photos still remains.

Edit: By the way the same applies to fiat banking credentials, so this is less a fiat vs crypto-currency issue than a propriety software vs FLOSS issue.

Bitcoin needs to be so secure you can use it at an internet cafe.

Its not avaliable on computers, or other smartphones so its only avaliable through apples walled garden. Since its apple, there will probably be ridiculous fees as well.

The current reference Bitcoin client running on GNU/Linux meets this requirement.

It's secure if you use 4g, I highly doubt big communications providers will be stealing your bitcoin

Edward Snowden Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-email-encryption-works-against-the-nsa-2013-6#ixzz3CabvH0t2

The weakness is in the end points which more often than not are DRM infected propriety operating systems sold by Apple or Microsoft or a data centre controlled by some large corporation. The network itself does not need to be secure if the crypto is implemented properly, and the end points are secure.

It's not about doubt, it's about being 100% sure you are the only one in control of your coins.  The only way to do that is to have a open source dedicated device for cold storage and offline signing (trezor/rPi)