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Copied from https://zenminer.com/cloud/terms.html archived at https://archive.today/b0e7e

The terms and conditions, contain the following pieces of information.


So firstly, they are not Physical devices. Maybe then they are virtual.. software inside some super system?


Their definition here of "virtual software" remember is not hardware - and not even electronic.

As they put it it does not mine on any pool.

But this is the clincher:


So long as they provide a payout that is equivalent to the payout you would have received from the pool you select - they are keeping their agreements to you.

Hashlets are not miners

The proof is in their own Terms and Conditions.

Is it not?

This hashlet thing looks so shady, i'm glad i passed on it

Ok, but who really cares about that?
Whats the difference between this or a hosted machine anywhere else?

If you don't know the difference between your own money being paid back to you, and mining new coins, then god help you.

you dont get it,

what they do is take your cash and say , ill pay you on the next loto ball numbers in the paper, if you have them

AKA buy hashes, ill check how many btc you would get from that hash from XYZ pool and give it to you.

meaning they take 100$ for example and pay you back the loan on 3-4 months

its a pyramid scam and they use pools as a method of calculating payment.. since most pools are shit these days ROI for you is 90 days + and for them its a FREE LOAN...

so , if they have 1000 buyers @ 100 $ worth of hashlets... they will net 100,000$ in a day.( lets assume its all new buys in same day)

now they have over 90 days to pay it back to you guys...or whatever time it takes to make money from a pools perspective....

so basically they are financing new hardward being build in shenzen with poeple's cash at cheap interest.

so ... if you fall for these things...

send me 100 BTC, ill pay you 10 BTC per month for 10 months (DEAL ?)

ill say you have bought X hashlets and that's that.... of course with difficulty rising, the payments ill give you will go lower and lower, so i might actually send you 10btc , 9.8 btc, 9.6 btc etc get it now ?

My god it's a pyramid scheme! What sneaky bastards!

so why do they charge 8 cents per kwh per day for maintenance and power costs?

Why not? They have maintenance and power costs.

Read the terms and conditions either above or in their own website (linked from OP) - By power I presume they mean electricity (unless they run on Gas?) - how much does power cost for something that is not physical, and does not use electricity?

That is not what it says.  It says it does not mean its mining on the pool you have selected.  Imagine you are GAW and there is a pool that is paying better than the one your customer had selected.  As a business seeking profit, it would make more sense to put that hashpower to the most profitable use and pay the customer what they would have received on their chosen pool and then keep the difference for the company.  There are several other ways to slightly improve profitability over what the pools regularly pay and I believe that is what GAW is doing.  But this is just my opinion, time will tell.  Honestly, as long as they ROI and are still paying out something decent when they do, I don't care if they are mining fairy dust.

I'm not going to accuse them of a Ponzi or Pyramid scheme (though by definition, it would be more of a Ponzi scheme if it turned out that they were not doing anything with the money).

All I can say is - those Hashlets aren't mining. Now they may be day-trading, investing, or whatever to get the BTC back - and all of that is presumably legit/above-board - at least in the regard to those operations. I have no proof to make any such statements, other than I can clearly state from their own terms and conditions.



It also says that "A Hashlet is virtual software". Now as far as I understand, there is nothing virtual about mining. It requires power, and physical hardware of some sort. Also it doesn't say "Hashlet is software". Surely virtual software would be a redundant term if it were to imply that.

You are dancing around their words to try to make it say something, when all it says is what it does not do - It isn't physical. It doesn't imply actual mining on the selected pool - and the hashlet itself is virtual software. Now if you can read those statements and infer from that - its actually mining on their own pool somewhere/somehow - fair enough. But I cannot read that much into what they are not saying. Not in the context of their other claims - such as what the promise to do.

or it could mean that you are buying a small portion of a larger setup and not assigned to a particular rig - just playing the Devil's advocate here.

If I have a 1000mh machine and split it into 1000 1 mh hashlets I could fit the terms they describe . So while your guess may be true mine may be true.

As I type I invested 1800 usd in zen-gaw cloud. I have made full and complete return of the 1800 usd. I have about .23xxx btc in coin profit.
I have 6.2mh in  'hashlets' and I have an antminer s-3 hosted with them.  I like you fear scams-ponzi's and or pyramids. So I sold off  almost all my hashlets.  64 of 70 .  I kept 6.2 hashlets in case gaw-zen is great and I am wrong. I also kept the antminer s-3 hosted by them since it was a cc purchase  and i have 60 days cc protection

Not a Gaw fanboy, but will offer a rebuttle of sorts

The physical devices and cannot ship serves to make clear the difference between this-  and other hosted miners that they sell and have sold.   Where you buy for instance a warmachine with free hosting for x months, and then you can pay to have them host it, or to mail it to you.    For a cloud mining service, they are selling units broken up into artifical sub units (IE. Mhash size sales of mining power) instead of a machine.

For the pool thing.. Gaw has said on its own forums that all of its units are basically mining their zenpool, because it is getting higher payouts  (to an extent, that is possible, when you control the latency, etc by having everything at one location, blah blah ((Not enough to really explain the difference in payouts, but that is a different topic all together)))   So regardless, if you buy a hash of their mining pool tied hashes, they are still mining their zenpool, paying you out the average for the pool hash you bought, and pocketing the difference.   That's also why you see various price points based out on the profitability levels of the pools as they did their pricing, methinks.

As for the clincher-  

See answer two, and gods above, I want that to be any cloud mining's sole obligation, to provide payouts.

Except, your partioning of a physical item, and the use of electricity - would imply that your hashlet does infact have some physical (rather than virtual) existence, and does use electricity to mine.

As for your investment - I have not said anything in this thread about the short-term or long-term investment choices that people make by investing in the Hashlet. My only concern is that it is marketed as Mining... when their own terms and conditions clearly state that you are not buying a Miner. That to me, is a big issue, as its a fundamental bait and switch from the offset.

Thanks for your reply on this matter. But again, things are being read into their terms and conditions that are clearly not stated in them.

Now in other terms and conditions of other rental companies, it is usually clearly stated that "you are not buying an individual unit, but rather the share in a unit" or such. There is nothing in the terms and conditions that relates to Hashlets, that specifies in any way that they are tied to, linked with, partitioned from, or related to any actual physical mining equipment.

That's fine, just sharing info from their forums, before they went and made them a trainwreck.  Not heavily invested in them, only running 10 mhash or so.. and like the poster above, who has dumped, I am considering it, since I bought in at 16, and on their forums, people are buying for 30 now.  Between that and the mining time, a 100% ROI does sound tempting

There is always people who rish and-or not get paid double, and people who hide, dont win anything but also have no risk.
Im with people that invested in this hashlets. I dont care if they dont mine. All i care is the profit i make, and so far no one can offer that good
Since i bought hashlets for 16USD, and now they are 40USD I have already won a piece of a cake. And that is most important in everybusiness, to be on the first line when everything is just starting to build up. peace

I actually spoke to josh and carlos garza, in two weeks time you will be able to point to your own pool.

this is a picture of Josh with the scrypt miners

https://i.imgur.com/9YTH5mB.jpg

I am too drunk to read. But I have a bunch of these. Umm, bump :-\

From what I understand, the Haslet is a virtual miner. I believe that GAW has pooled a bunch of hardware and are selling off software based virtual slots, e.g. Hashlets, similar to what Droplets are to VPS. They sold off so many hashlets that they had to temporary stop sales and are currently expanding the mining hardware side of things, in order to increase the number of haslets available for sale.

Mining profitability is good, price increase due to the low availability has also made the hashlets a good deal with a price increase from $16 to $40.

I thought about that and I think there might be something suspicious with the whole price bumping issues.
Also the whole hashlets packages they provide without detailed info  :-\

Those are just boxes on warehouse shelves.
Nothing is plugged in, where are all the wires?

Agree, where is all the wires, mining farm shouldn't be so neat.

This is one of Genesis Minings setup, expensive at the moment compared to a hashlet but at least you can see cables etc.


https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimg5.picload.org%2Fimage%2Fcggoipi%2F2014-08-1701.04.06.jpg&t=543&c=Z7i53eqOL5YFCA

Behind it?

You can see between and under each shelf. There is nothing there.
No power, no networking, no air conditioning.
You can see stacks of pallets in the background. It is a warehouse, setup to take a nice photo.
This is a crypto datacentre: http://imgur.com/a/CcIhX

I guess no one else here has worked logistics or knows what a datacenter actually looks like.

See the plastic wrapped pallets behind that 1 rack of hardware? Do you see any power cords going to/from the hardware?
This setup to me, looks like it was built for either the purpose of taking this picture, OR its housing empty cases for hardware.

Heres another image to check out. Let me know what ya'll make of it.

https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fhashtrader.s3.amazonaws.com%2F383574542ffbe3665a55d7af4227404c88025fd1e52a.jpg&t=543&c=JQ7C-tGE1fmHjA

Again, no wires, no ac. The only wires I see are running those lights.

From the way the fans are pointing, it looks like that is meant to be the hot isle of the datacentre.
Where is the air conditioning?
If the machines are operating, why is the guy on the left leaning against several of them, completely blocking the fans?

More photos of real datacentres: http://www.businessinsider.com/warehouse-men-200000-bitcoin-monthly-2014-8

All fair points.

I'm wondering if this was when everything was being set up and they wanted a photoshoot while it looked nice? I shoot professionally and would have requested to do the shoot prior to it looking hectic with wiring.

I really like GAW and have made my ROI already because of their free gift (sold it, they gave it to everyone too) so now everything is just additional income. Only a few dollars a day but hey, better than nothing. I just threw some spare cash into it (recent graduate so I don't have a few grand to drop like others lol).

What are you even talking about here.
Of course a hashlet is not a miner.
GAW showed 2 of their data centers and said they own 3, their exact location was posted along with the google maps photos.

Youre debating whether a picture of a warehouse with the miners stacked on shelves is actually a working data center? Give me a break.

Anybody who has been in a data center knows that the difference between a warehouse and a data center.

Crawl back into your hole Panda

Common sense suddenly strikes this thread.

Maybe hitting a wall with your head will move some dead cells inside, but I doubt it.

Where are those photos or those locations? Please post evidence, or it didn't happen.

I hate to say it, but s1gs3gv has a point. The 2 photos that are floating around now are clearly warehouses. Not to mention the scale at which gaw is talking about with prime, you would want an actual server farm setup. Controlled environment, hermetically sealed, etc. Even if their "warehouse" or "data centers" are located in the northeast, summer humidity would kill the hardware regardless of how many fans you have pointed at them, and in those photos there are 0.

I disagree. GAW posted these photos to show the miners they have, it's not the actual data center. That's why I wrote what I wrote 2 or 3 posts above you. The actual datacenters were posted on hashtalk few weeks ago and someone found they still have coordinates in the descriptions, I'll add them in a sec.



Here you go (copied from another thread not hashtalk, because their new forum is really slow :()

strange stuff going on here

that's my impression of the entire thing, your simply buying a "virtual" slice of a greater environment. I'd even guess this may include different methods of achieving payouts including mining but also hedging and other financial tricks to turn a profit.

Regardless of how its accomplished or even if its a completely illegal ponzi scheme, everyone has the ability to withdrawal their earnings the minute they post, so at most if the FBI raids them and pulls the plug, you would lose a day's "mining". 

I'd think GAW has made gobs of money selling equipment over the years so it would be a drastic change to switch to a ponzi scheme now...Its like McDonalds selling horse meat, why ruin a good thing that works for something instead illegal? Sure its possible, just not a likely outcome for people already making millions...

Over the years? How long do you think gaw has been around? They started selling hardware like 6 months ago. Do I detect another shill attempting to sound like they agree with some of what we have to say?

The waybackmachine took its first snapshot of gawminers.com in may.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140503190208/http://www.gawminers.com/

Over the months would be a better word, but I agree with the rest.

I should have added that its not a drastic step to a ponzi scheme. If what some of us believe is true and the vaultbreakers were at best delayed, its possible they are overselling hashlets to raise funds and are hoping to get the hardware they need to make it legit again.

If you take the time to read my posts on this, you will see where I am coming from. I have traded stocks/bonds/forex/etc for 2+ decades, plus I did run a couple of the egold hyips back in the day. Mine were on the up and up and when I was able I paid everyone back to at least even, and on all I made sure everyone knew that I was offering a game and not a guaranteed investment.

Thanks for the share

I see those hashlets as a loan to GAW (do i think they are hashing with all that mining power at those pools? LOL hell ,no, it´s just numbers)

i hope they pay me back as soon as possible to get into positive ROI

OR i sell my Prime Hashlets which i bought @15.99 for 32$ now (regular price is 39.99$ now, take the money and buy some of those beats:

https://www.moonasics.com/shop/moon-explorer-240-mhs-asic-scrypt-miner/

Better than hashlets?

6 weeks for shipping? I would stay the hell away. Your better off preordering the new L1 from bitmaintech, its not shipping for a few months but the price now is 5$/mhs. 120mhs for 599$. If I could spare that for a few months I would preorder 1 or 2 of them.

https://zeusminer.com/product/zeusminer-volcano-300mhs1000wscrypt-asic-miner/

And isn't Moon just a new Hashra company?

i am hearing all this after i have invested about 50 dollars in this... but don't you keep the hashlets for an eternity and a half, so should you eventually break even and then get some extra coins to spend  :P :o ???... eventually you will earn some bitcoins as actual profit  



[MOD NOTE: Edited out ref spam]

Yes your buying a life contract with decreasing fees so it's kept profitable. You can also sell your hashlets using marketplace section on hashtalk.org. There are great threads with hashlet ROI tracking on this forum.

i think its a worth while long term investment.. but i am just a newb  :P :-[ :D ;D

The Genesis isn't worth the investment at all, but the Primes and the Zen solo's are!

It could just be that they developed super large rigs that have a LOT of mining power behind them. Then they essentially are selling us shares of the miner and thus we get a share of its income, thus providing the BTC investment that they would need to produce and run the miners.

that's what i assume.

>>//

if they do have very profitable pools,
the budget end of 1mh/s would only equal maybe 50% of 1mh/s for luxury models

so they could sell twice as many hash as they have of the budget version.

I think the Genesis is, especially if they roll out ZenPool for Sha. Imagine those number. I don't think prices will rise on them though since right now they are forcing Cex/similar sites to rethink their selling....especially with timed contracts.

I only own 15 mhs of Zen Hashlets. That being said, I find it frustrating that they say that I have been paid out hours ago yet it is not in my BTC Balance. Sure it may show it in my Latest Activity and Balance but it is misleading to say that they have paid out when it is not in my BTC balance at the top of the page. Don't fucking tell me I am paid out unless I can withdraw it to multibit.

i have the same issue :(
much sadness :(

Just don't check til later afternoon then. It's daily that balance comes later than payouts. I think it runs Everyone's payout before updating balances.

I've seen some people wondering about the whole payment process.
Here's a link to an explanation: https://hashtalk.org/topic/3349/explanation-when-do-i-get-a-payout

Oh yay another preorder machine? When KNC delivery theirs? Or did they fail to deliver too?

I knew 'bout that.
Hashlet is like the other cloud mining, I don't care if it's virtual miner or what.
As long as It can make profit I like it ;D

  I think support to ship first batch orders out around 2 weeks and no one know if ship will shipping out to the sea.

Wait Wait.. your talking about turning's... the amazing out of nowhere company that on the testimonal page has 2 "different" customers who have units with the exact same review? 

This thing has been great out of the box. I'm using the software I downloaded from Turing Stations.

Yeah.. I see 2 "customers" saying the exact same thing with the exact same capitalization and punctation.

I'll Sell you a custom built 8Thash btc miner and 900 MHS scrypt miner with the exact same power consumption, for the exact same price.   Feel free to send me the btc!

Thank you for contacting Turing Stations AS., my name is Aaron and I'm
happy to meet you.
I'm sorry but we do not recommend buying this product by bank transfer as
this product will go out of stock in the following days and transfers
usually take around 5 to 12 days. You can make the transfer but I can not
guarantee that your transfer will be confirmed in time. You may receive
the product in our second batch in November. Please try to use one of our
other instant payment methods to make sure you are getting your product
now. Once products have a 0 stock, the product page will change to Out of
Stock and you will no longer have the ability to use the payment system.
(28.aug
Yes, it is possible to purchase our products with a credit card but special
rules apply to this kind of payment as we are very careful regarding this
kind of payment.

Our products have a high price range and there is a high risk of fraud
(chargebacks) when accepting payments with credit cards.

We have no choice but to require a list of documents to confirm your
ownership of the credit card:

- Photo of ID or Passport

- Photo of any utility bill (from the last 3 months max). The name
must be the same as the one written on the credit card.

- Photo of credit card

All photos must be clear and in high definition!

Please confirm your acceptance of this terms. If you accept, a sales person
from Turing Stations AS. will contact you with further instructions.

If possible, we recommend using one of our faster payment options with
immediate confirmation. There is a risk the product will go out of stock
before we confirm your documents.
(29.aug

Thank you for providing these details but our sales team has rejected your
request. Sincerely, I think your documents are valid but we have been the
target of a lot of fraud attempts in the past days, it is very
problematic. Your documents have been deleted from our servers and will
not be kept or used in any way.

I am very sorry we could not authorize you to pay with a credit card for
our products. Please do not hesitate to contact me for any other details.
(3.9)

I apologize again for having to reject your request but there is really
nothing I can do, please understand.
I am very certain you will not be able to secure a unit if you pay by bank
transfer but we do not force anyone to pay using our more simple payment
methods but I strongly advise you to use Bitcoins to purchase the Atlantis
or any other miner in stock as this will provide you immediate
confirmation. Bank transfers are usually used by wholesale customers who
purchased our products in large quantities.
(3.9)
I tried asking sales department about a reason but they did not supply me
with one. As far as I know, a lot of people have been trying exploit our
payment system and we are rejecting this form of payment for new
customers.
I am so sorry Sir I can not help you to complete your order, I tried
everything but it is impossible for me to open a payment interface for
you.
(3.9)

100%Scam you will find more info in talk

like escrow site and Turing Stations same people

Here's an idea: buy some hashlets and judge for yourself. I have been pretty happy with the ROI on my current "miners" and have even thrown in some of the Genesis hashlets to sweeten the pot. 24 hour payout results from day before yesterday were one amount - after the addition of the Genesis hashlets it went down. Now I am starting to wonder myself exactly what's going on here.

GAW has not been completely transparent about what all this is about in the first place. If you look at the hashlet offering as a whole, it is nothing but a whole lot of really good sales copy. Very few details on the "what" and the "how". I was intrigued, had a bit of extra cash, and hopped on the train - primarily just to see how it would perform. Like I said, so far it has been ok until I threw those Genesis hashlets in. Time will indeed tell. I'll report back at the end of the week and fill you guys and gals in on the results.

My pet theory is that Gaw has done the math and believe that Hashlets will not ROI. Perhaps, like a good Ponzi, the early purchasers will ROI, but later purchasers will not. This does not require any fraud on the part of Gaw--they have clearly written the TOS so that these don't have to be mining gear in any sense of the definition. As long as they pay you the returns that the pool would provide, they are not required to have anything backing the hashrate they sold you.

At current rates for BTC and the dismal scrypt multipool profitability of late, I am pretty certain they are going to win their bet.

Want to bet on that?

Their hash power is backed by hardware is a proven fact, they just don't want to reveal what the hardware is used for, thus the TOS.
They've been paying the returns for a few months already and are planning to continue, despite the curent Bitcoin crysis.

Man what can gaw prove to say they have a data centre, dont worry fudders most of you are safe as zombies only eat people with brains. Well zen payouts are 10 x better than genises and even my own miners..I have a small private pool and ye zen gives me the best roi in the last 2 months running...Genises is the worst the other cloud hashers ye they are also  safe from zombies.I do better with my mining pool and miners than genises.mining. All I hope is that hashlets can keep it up, for other things there is viagra

If anything, that indicates something fishy is going on...what could they POSSIBLY be mining that gives those returns???