Bitcoin Forum

Got this in my inbox.

I think this is a good idea, thoughts?

I guess you like being disintermediated then?

So basically, ANYONE sending money to a merchant that has gotten chargeback fraud must now be completely verified. I think this is the death knell for the long-lasting Dwolla/Bitcoin relationship.

what is a dwolla hub page ?

It allows one to accept money using their Shopping Cart Interface page

Yep... that part doesn't make any sense to me though.  How does enabling that help keep them from being fraudulent?

Your guess is as good as mine my friend

Does diaspora count? What about non-computerized social networks?

I am an anti-social basement dweller. I don't live in the US, so the point is moot anyway.

Why don't they just ask for a credit check while they are at it? Or is that what point 4 is really for?

Edit: even if I did live in the US, I wouldn't use them: I don't see the point of trying to use an intermediate "vitual currency" to buy Bitcoin (but that is OT).

You're never going to get a method of authentication that will allow EVERYONE to participate and keep out scammers/fraudsters.

The social network option (linked in, facebook) is good for those who use those networks. Depending on how Dwolla does it (do they just friend you or get the ID of all your friends) they could make it a lot harder to defraud the system.

I think it is a good idea to mitigate fraud, however, what happen to the new bitcoin user that wants to start by quickly funding by Dwolla, does it mean they'll have to wait 30 days to fund their bitinstant account? Or if they have a verified account they can bypass this requirement?

Ouch, #1 kills Dwolla for me. I just hate social networks, unless LinkedIn counts.

Edit: I just see LinkedIn works with Dwolla.

So, Big Brother, here we come, welcome to the brave new world of Bitcoin.

Well an alternative is otc-wot

Oh great. I'm in an identity theft ring! That counts, right?

So, their "cash-like" system is not really cash-like.

Bitcoin broke Dwolla.

Death of Dwolla. Forcing customers to have a bank activity every thirty days is a fools errand.

Maybe on the next venture, they wouldn't use a linked bank account. Just accept cash deposits via the banks to fund accounts. Then chargebacks are moot.

Not really, Dwolla was broke to begin with because it's built on top of the existing (broken) banking system, bitcoin is just after forcing them to face reality.

connect to a social network? for serious? rofl

and affect not effect, shame on you dwolla

Steps like this only hurt Dwolla.  The fraudsters have dummy social network accounts set up.  I guess they may catch a dummy who starts honest then goes rouge and tries to charge back a Dwolla transaction because they would have more information on them.  Probably not though, the bank is most often going to side with the customer.  

Dwolla NEEDS two factor now.  Just fishing for REAL Dwolla accounts and using them to buy BTC is going to be a problem.  Each hack Dwolla account will be worth something so long as Dwolla is accepted by bitcoin exchanges.  Hackers are going to keep pushing Dwolla as long as they sit still.  Paypal has the advantage because they can usually take a payment back in the end.  

Dwolla has two factor, but one is a password, and one is a short, numerical pin.  SMS or Google Authentication would be a step in the right direction.

How is google better?

I didnt like Dwolla after that Tradehill incident. But now I they are dead for me.

I meant Google Authenticator... not Authentication.

Authenticator is an app that generates time-based passwords unique to the given site that implements it.

If you don't like this, cancel your account today, right now.

I just confirmed with Dwolla support that all 4 steps are now a requirement before sending money to MtGox.
- The 30 bank transfer history I have no problem with.  
- Accessing my Facebook and Social Security number is an unnecessary invasion of my privacy that I will not tolerate, and is the main reason I am cancelling my account.
- The fact that they are up-selling their new Hub Pages product is repugnant, particularly that it is a requirement before you can send money to certain people.  

If you have an account and don't want to comply with their bullshit verification, contact support and ask for it to be deleted.  They should feel some pain from this new policy.

Has anyone confirmed whether this affects withdrawals (from mtgox or wherever)? Is ID needed to withdraw from an exchange?

Is that true for Dwolla/Intersango too?

except that, IIRC, your account won't actually be deleted for a very long time.

They offered to suspend my account, I told them to permanently delete all data that they are not required by law to retain.  They still haven't responded.

Ironically, this will make Bitcoin world MORE anonymous, as more US people will now use the anonymous cash deposits at banks via BitInstant instead of Dwolla (it was already much faster... now it's more far more private as well).

BTW that isn't two factor.

a) Something you know
b) Something you have
c) Something you are

One factor uses one of the factors, two factor uses two, and three factor uses three.  Adding more elements from the same factor doesn't significantly increase security.

Cash deposits at banks seems to be the way to go to maintain privacy.

This AML KYC stuff is just because LE has become lazy. If they truly suspect someone of a crime then they can goto the bank and get the video. This 'everyone' is a suspect so lets violate their privacy, needs to fail. So, every time they come up with a system, we need to come up with a 'legal' way of circumventing it.

Thank you, you are correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-factor_authentication

There was use of Dwolla by some that never set up a bank account.  If one doesn't trust the exchanges, funds could be moved out of the exchange into Dwolla without giving them anything other than a name e-mail address (for small amounts, of course -- for larger amounts they've wanted ID for quite some time now.)

Many people were able to use Dwolla as an FDIC insured temporary holding spot after cashing out of some bitcoins.  But now, they must register with a bank and wait 30 days in order to get that money back into bitcoins.   Some of them don't even have a bank account.   (Fortunately, some reloadable debit cards will function as direct deposit for transferring cash out sooner than 30 days).


Yup -- the Facebook part is unacceptable.  The SS# I can understand, though I would think existing accounts should get grandfathered in as far as the balance that existed when this change occurred.


Isn't that bizarre?   To send money to you I need to set up a hub page so that I too can receive money from others?    Why?

I wouldn't bet that was a misunderstanding by the person editing the announcement or something to that effect.

Facebook thing and 30 day wait won't really prevent fraud. Afterall most crimebots record every keystroke and login so the potential fraudster would already have all Dwolla/FB/everything and can just buy the SSN# from a lookup service.

Bitinstant should crowdsource trusted people to do cash in hand trades in every city and pay an affiliate fee or something :) No more banks or dwolla middlemen. Sort of a giant hawalla network

There is logic for the 30-day wait.  It states that you must have used Dwolla to transfer funds from your bank account at least 30 days prior.  Thus if a scammer did a bank transfer without the bank account holder realizing it right away, the passing of one statement cycle increases the chances the transaction would be discovered.

This will help Dwolla with Dwolla Instant as well, as if the scammer were to have created the account and applied for the line of credit, at least the chances are that the legitimate account holder will likely learn that this account and/or credit line was created before any funds were transferred to a bitcoin exchange.

It prevents a scammer from using a non-Dwolla bank account and signup up for Dwolla service but it does nothing to protect against keylogger and using a victims already established account (one w/ facebook links, and 30 day of account history).

It is feel good security.  If most of the attacks are from creating new accounts using stolen non-Dwolla enrolled bank accounts then the attackers will simply shift to stealing existing dwolla accounts.

I'm pulling all my money out ASAP and contacting support to delete my account as soon as the money reaches my bank account.

True this does prevent simple new signup fraud, but still doesn't combat identity theft. Can open bank accounts remotely using somebody's stolen identity, launder other stolen funds through it to Dwolla, then apply for credit after the 30 days. Some scammers are in it for the long haul if they can pull it off.

Any money transfer system based on online banking is doomed to fraud unfortunately. Trustcash wins again

Which reduces the size of Dwolla's risk exposure by several orders of magnitude, for now.  I'm guessing at $0.25 per transaction they simply cannot afford even to deal with the administrative hassle coming from the fraud transactions -- either attempted or successful, so this change is one way to automate away much of it.

In the U.S. they've yet to allow retail banking (consumer banking) customers do ACH push.   Add in a Yubikey requirement to allow ACH push (only with the key) and most of the problem with unauthorized transactions is solved.   The problem is banks see that switch as being too expensive, in financial terms and consumer education and support.  It is still cheaper to pass on the cost of fraud to either the customers or the merchant, and when forced to, eat a little themselves.

There's a gold and currency exchange office where I live where you can walk in, lay down cash and they will send risky electronic transactions for a small fee, so the receiver is guaranteed clean funds.

Yubikey and other requirements for online banking would be great but seems to me banks and credit card companies are willing to just eat the fraud if it's easy for their customers to use. Push a button send money.

Ya, denying service because you won't link your Facebook account is probably something the EFF needs to jump onto before it becomes accepted practice.

 - http://www.betabeat.com/2011/12/13/as-banks-start-nosing-around-facebook-and-twitter-the-wrong-friends-might-just-sink-your-credit
 - http://www.movenbank.com

so you have to wait 30 days from first depositing money into dwolla before you can send it to mtgox now?

That's what it sounds like.

That's not ironic. Dwolla is covering it's own ass and doesn't give a rip about how Bitcoin will run with or without it. I would give them my life story if it meant that I could get stuff from here to there faster, but the 30 day thing kills it for me.

Now selling Dwolla to mtgox service for 0.50 cents.  Just send funds to https://www.dwolla.com/hub/812-665-7282 with the MTGOX comment that MtGox uses to identify your account.  I will keep a quarter and send it on to MtGox with the comment intact.  I'll probably get my account marked for these requirements before long, and I'll be doing it manually so there will be a delay while I sleep and when I'm AFK, but I can process them within 12 hours from now until Friday, April 20th (I'll be travelling Saturday) or until I get marked.  Of course, there's a chance I'm already marked for having transacted with MtGox, so I would appreciate it if someone who's account doesn't meet the requirements could check and let me know.

Edit: Don't send funds, Dwolla suspended my account.

I would happily participate in such a thing. I wonder how you'd go about vetting so many people though...

Heh, you beat me to my post by a few seconds.

Just like there are trusted parties on #bitcoin-otc trading PPUSD for MTGUSD amongst each other without any hassle from PayPal there can be those who aren't marked by Dwolla as being under this restriction who would trade Dwolla USD for MTGUSD -- often at 1:1 or near to it (as your offer was).
 - http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#bitcoin-otc-foyer
 - http://bitcoin-otc.com/trust.php

I really need to get back on there.  I lost my private key for my nick a while back, so I'll have to start over.

Someone please explain to me how having a Facebook account makes a person less likely to be committing fraud?

Also, am I the only one who thinks it's creepy to require someone to participate a third party social networking site before they can access a banking service? Why do they need to see pictures of your kids to validate your account? Banks don't even ask for this.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, making more rules doesn't prevent fraud, it just infringes on the rights and privacy of ordinary people. Criminals always find a way around no matter what hoops you make people jump through...

Thats a good idea actually.....

Funny now, considering how the thread I created here where I posted links to a Dwolla employee's Facebook and the information gleaned from there got deleted by mods (the same employee that called me on my home phone telling my my funds were locked and wanted photo ID in color). Maybe if they had some more pushback after holding people's money for ransom  (with no policy detailing what they were going to do with personal data) we wouldn't be here now...

We basically have another layer removed that further reveals these are inept midwest college students who started this "service" without the slightest idea about how banking works.

This is probably a terrible idea to do for anyone that you don't trust, and you can't trust people because they have posts on a messageboard. I wouldn't be surprised if you get caught in the middle of this and end up holding the bag for some of this money. Slippery slope, imo.

The facebook/social network is just a marketing thing.  They want to have access and see who you connect to so to get more customers.  If you link to a fake one they won't know any difference.

I would be intersted if a secure method was established for doing exchanges.

Which I have no problem with companies using social media to gain competitve advantage.  What is disgusting is linking that "advertising" requirement to account verification.

Had they launch a separate imitative where liking them on facebook and installing the Dwolla app (which links your Dwolla # to your facebook identity to make it easier for facebook users to send money to each other) got you 10 "free transfers" that would be a smart action by a reputable company.

The integration into "fraud prevention" is just disgusting and shows the kind of culture that exists at Dwolla Inc.

Why couldn't something like this be integrated into StartSSL's WoT? If you screw up big time, all your certificates get revoked.

Who says it does. Maybe they just want your FB info for marketing? I bet if I had your social connections I could identify several hot leads.  :(

Scam accounts are friends with scam accounts.  When you connect to fb, they pull all your friends in.

+1

The Article (http://www.betabeat.com/2011/12/13/as-banks-start-nosing-around-facebook-and-twitter-the-wrong-friends-might-just-sink-your-credit/) linked by Stephen Gornick. Social networks are now being used for credit checks.

Dwolla account ID # 812-665-7282 has been suspended.

Oh well.  At least my account was empty.

I was just wondering if that was a pretext to get your information. If I really wanted to establish identity I would ask for a bill from the gas company, not a face book account.

emailed today:

RE: Dwolla ID:  XXX-XXX-XXXX

To Whom It may concern,

Regarding your decision to force facebook or other social network & require a social security number even though I have never traded over the established 5k limit I now request you close my account.

Because of this decision I have withdrawn all remaining money from my account & would like this account closed as soon as this transaction clears.

Further, please delete and all my personal information, including linked bank accounts to this dwolla account.

Thank You,

So now where to I go to get my cash into campbx, Any ideas?

Count me in...they already have sites like bitcoinmap and btcnearme.com, but there are not of nodes on them, and they don't appear to have any stats or feedback mechanism for reputation. Even better would be a p2p client.

+1

Just looked into this myself.  CampBX accepts USPS money orders, personal checks, and payments from bank bill-pay services.

That was to be expected! You shouldn't have posted it publicly in the forum. Do you think they are not here looking into these threads?

My name is pretty generic, also I used a different English spelling of my name.... GL to them. The only thing that pops up from social networks is linkedin.

Meh.

Yeah I saw that myself. Looked into using bill pay from my bank only problem is 5 business day turn over. Yikes send them payment today, it would get there by next Tuesday. That's rough for trying to do business, better off dropping a check / usps in the mail.

Guess it depends on your needs.  I'm looking to replace a Dwolla monthly-recurring ACH payment, so the billpay method seems to fit that need.   BTW, I've never had a Dwolla transfer take any less than five business days either.

Yeah that's true. I always got around that by putting cash in before I needed it & maintaining a balance so it was there ready for me,  I can just do the same with bill pay.

I tried deleting my Dwolla account right after TradeHill went down, but couldn't for the life of me figure out how to do this.  I posted a question on their Facebook page asking how one goes about deleting/cancelling a Dwolla account, but it was never answered.  So if I understand you correctly, you have to contact their customer support to ask for your account to be deleted?  Wouldn't it automatically be disabled if you haven't used it in more than 30 days?

I tried deleting my Dwolla account right after TradeHill went down, but couldn't for the life of me figure out how to do this.  I posted a question on their Facebook page asking how one goes about deleting/cancelling a Dwolla account, but it was never answered.  So if I understand you correctly, you have to contact their customer support to ask for your account to be deleted?  Wouldn't it automatically be disabled if you haven't used it in more than 30 days?

It would seem the fastest method is now to post your account number in this thread.

Suspended, not closed. I have a feeling that closing the account and having your information forgotten is impossible.

http://help.dwolla.com/customer/portal/articles/269223-how-can-i-delete-my-dwolla-account-

Their TOS says they keep your info for at least 3 years, that is what "suspended" means.

Definitely disatisfied with their SMS verification policy

Frankly I think this is interesting. I do not like the FB verification however. It should be an opt out feature along with SMS verification

Robert

Seems Dwolla has had a "reversal" of policy.  The Facebook requirement is no longer listed:
https://i.imgur.com/MLwXV.png

LOL...man are they priceless. For anyone with trapped funds, I was able to move them into BitFloor without any verification. No more Dwolla for me! :)

Can anyone else verify? I may take Dwolla off my shitlist.

I can confirm that today I was shown just these three requirements (and the fourth, to connect to a social network, was not shown).  This was my first time logging into Dwolla this week though.

I already had the 30-day requirement filled and the Hub Page enabled as well so the last step was to verify my SSN.  After clicking on the link for that and entering my SSN (though had to restart the send money process from Mt. Gox after each step) I was then able to send funds today from Dwolla to Mutum Sigillum, LLC and shortly after those funds showed as being credited to my Mt. Gox account.

So, are they back on the "tolerable to do business with" list?

Nah, still fucking scammers. Verfy my SSN? What is this bullshit?

Its not on their list, but after you give them your SSN they then spring on you that they need a copy of your drivers license or passport.

I didn't have to do that, and have never given them photo id or anything like that.  I did have to call to voice verify after a withdrawal to my bank got held up once.  I've had a Dwolla account since Dec, 2010 though.  And I've never held a balance there more than $1K, which also means I've never transferred more than $1K in a single transaction either -- something that I think might trigger the need for a D/L or passport check.

A request for a SSN or even a driver's license doesn't seem nearly as absurd as Facebook access.  Those sound like identification regularly required for conducting certain financial affairs.  Paypal even has my SSN.  No banking service I've used (or for that matter any service of any kind) has ever required social networking access.

Kind of unrelated but this is the most current thread regarding Dwolla.

There are now over 100,000 Dwolla users.

 - http://mashable.com/2012/04/19/dwolla-buy-button

Though there may be issues with transferring money into exchanges using Dwolla, going the other direction is pretty fast and painless.  What this means is that as Dwolla's userbase grows there will be more and more merchants and individuals who accept Dwolla for payment.  Thus bitcoins, with a quick conversion step to Dwolla USDs, will be spendable with more and more merchants and individuals as well.  Sure, it would be better if they took Bitcoin directly, but if they are at least taking Dwolla then value stored in Bitcoins can be redeemed for a greater number of real-world goods and services and for online purchases as well.

Without there being a well funded effort to do the design, marketing and promotion like what Dwolla, Square and PayPal do, Bitcoin will have to suffice riding on their coattails.

By patronizing a Dwolla-friendly merchant (when no Bitcoin-friendly alternative is available) we get an opportunity each time to make the case why Bitcoin payments should be an option as well.  When we see a Square Dongle being used or a merchant with an iPad running PayPal Here we get the opportunity to let that merchant know that the same device (mobile phone or tablet) can be used to take Bitcoin transactions as well. 

Not every merchant needs to accept Bitcoin for it to grow.  The bitcoin community will become repeat customers where their coins are valued.  We just need a strategy -- like this, perhaps, to get a foot in the door.  It will grow organically from there as the network effect starts to take hold.

Dwolla's age limitation is a bugger.

You mean the 18 years for instant access? This is understandable considering credit contracts can't be enforced against minors.

It would be a non-issue if you used a debit card however.

Okay, I posted this on Reddit today as well, but I have someone who deals very closely with Dwolla in meatspace that told me "government agents" met with them last week.

I highly suspect based on his description of what went down that they were FBI. This guy is a joker and has given me crap in the past, though, so take it with a grain of salt. When I first heard it I about flipped out on him though. Now, after thinking about it, it kind of makes sense. Why try to even follow transactions in the blockchain when you can just keep track of the people making the biggest withdrawls out of Dwolla to get warrants for wiretaps or searches prior to your gun or drug busts?

Anyway, I'm not really a conspiracy theorist, but for those of us that are money changers exchanging both reserve notes and BTC on a fairly regular basis, this is enough to be unsettling. I don't want to be judged based on what my customers do, and I sure as hell don't want to have to deal with law enforcement on a regular basis.

Raize, one more reason to ditch those fiat notes altogether and only use Bitcoin.

As long as people making serious business and getting paid in Bitcoin continue to exchange it for fiat the Bitcoin economy will go nowhere. <--- Yeah, I know, easier said than done ;)

Stupid government currency buying us food and shit, who needs them?

All a man needs is hookers and blow!

You can already buy blow, just the hookers missing ;D

Here's some more "leveraging the power of social media", if you want to see what Dwolla looked like on the inside. (BTW, if you work for me and post pics of the inside of my business and other employees on your twitter, YOUR FRICKIN FIRED!)

https://twitter.com/#!/JsLampe/media/slideshow?url=pic.twitter.com%2FRqOmm5zB (https://twitter.com/#!/JsLampe/media/slideshow?url=pic.twitter.com%2FRqOmm5zB)

or the view out the window:

https://twitter.com/#!/ianzimm/media/slideshow?url=pic.twitter.com%2FbAtHOvN2 (https://twitter.com/#!/ianzimm/media/slideshow?url=pic.twitter.com%2FbAtHOvN2)

or their employee mug shot wall:

https://twitter.com/#!/armsteadj1/media/slideshow?url=http%3A%2F%2Finstagr.am%2Fp%2FJyKoXzHQyh%2F (https://twitter.com/#!/armsteadj1/media/slideshow?url=http%3A%2F%2Finstagr.am%2Fp%2FJyKoXzHQyh%2F)

you would 1) end up with no younger employees (the ones willing to work crazy hours who are in touch with the younger market and are often the tech movers)  who do this on a regular basis, 2) depending on the state your in, possibly find yourself the defendant in a lawsuit or three.

Such wishful nonsense, and seasoned with plenty of the narcissism too  ;D

no narcissism.  i'm old in relation to those i'm talking about, barely care about facebook at all, and twitter could die a fiery death as far as i'm.

you must not be familiar with labor laws in many states.  and yeah, if your business involves making big rocks into little rocks, then you don't need to worry about the youth market, but if your in one of the many fields that either depend on young employees, has a large income from the 16-34's, or one that benefits from them, then alienating that segment with overly restrictive policy isn't exactly a good move.  not sure where the wishful nonsense your speaking of comes into play.

now don't get all so mad regarding dwolla policies, i think they cover 30% 40% of bitcoin transactions and  i don't think asking for SSN is a bad thing (paypal does it <and i bet 10BTC that 90% of this forum users they have or had paypal accounts> and amazon payments and i can count 3 merchants that will ask for it so you can't run from the SSN verification) but i'm all 100% down for the 30 days policy i don't see how this will keep scammers away  ???

i try 2 times to buy some bitcoins from bitinstant and since i move money in and out from dwolla i always have the 30 days disabled.
i think i will ask bitinstant to send me the dwolla ID so i can have it sent directly to them

Apparently Dwolla are even incapable of stringing together coherent sentences in English.

You're kinda wrong on this one. No picture or recording equipment (including smartphone) is a common secured area IT Policy. Also, if you're involved at all in healthcare, HIPPA. It's in the agreements you sign on the 1st day.

It's never enforced, It's just there so you can be held against it at any time and fired without compensation.