Title: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: DrApricot on September 06, 2014, 10:02:55 PM Mt. Gox depositors are facing the prospect of a very long wait for the liquidation to be complete and the likelihood of only ever receiving pennies on the dollar (or worse, Japanese Yen) for their bitcoins. Perhaps everyone would be much better off if Mt. Gox management (or what's left of it) would simply ask the Tokyo judge to dismiss the bankruptcy. The trustee, attorney Nobuaki Kobayashi, would likely be disinclined to support any such motion, because his task is to assemble non-exempt property and equity and liquidate same to repay creditors. Were the liquidation called off, then he would be out of a job.
It is admitted that Kobayashi is sitting on approximately 220,000 BTC worth in excess of $100,000,000. That should be enough to run any fractional reserve exchange if that's what its going to take. The benefit of dismissing the bankruptcy liquidation would be the immediate distribution of depositors' available bitcoins, and no more waiting. Whether the database is corrupt or not is really an internal Mt. Gox matter that could probably be sorted out by a clever programmer or two. This action would take back the decision making from lawyers and accountants who seem completely unqualified to to deal with this situation, and who, apparently with little result, have been racking up huge fees that are potentially eating up Mt. Gox depositor's money. Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: EternalWingsofGod on September 06, 2014, 10:08:36 PM That would be up for the creditors to decide I guess
Putting forth a proposal for dissolution (The lawyer fees do pile up though lol) Also for the record the Yen is pretty much 1:1 the USD right now 1 Japanese Yen equals 0.0095 US Dollar Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: TheButterZone on September 06, 2014, 10:10:31 PM That would be pretty much 100:1 USD or 1:1 USP (US Penny).
Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: DrApricot on September 06, 2014, 11:46:32 PM That would be up for the creditors to decide I guess Actually, the judge would have to decide. It could be part of an out-of-court settlement with creditors in which the company agrees to beef up its management, and Mark Karpeles "retires."Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: itsAj on September 07, 2014, 03:48:16 AM Gox running on a fractional reserve system would not work. People would rush to the exits as quickly as possible to withdraw their bitcoin and people who are able to withdraw their bitcoin first would be made whole while people who were delayed in withdrawing would be left holding the bag with nothing.
Even if gox only made 25% of previous customer balances available for withdrawal, then many people would likely want to withdraw this 25% which would open them up to potential security risks of having that much leaving their wallet at one time. Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: DrApricot on September 07, 2014, 06:38:12 AM Gox running on a fractional reserve system would not work. People would rush to the exits as quickly as possible to withdraw their bitcoin and people who are able to withdraw their bitcoin first would be made whole while people who were delayed in withdrawing would be left holding the bag with nothing. I hear you. Distribution would have to be staged very carefully to prevent as many of these kinds of issues as possible. Even if gox only made 25% of previous customer balances available for withdrawal, then many people would likely want to withdraw this 25% which would open them up to potential security risks of having that much leaving their wallet at one time. It also depends upon about how much of a fractional reserve we are really talking. The original 850,000 BTC number claimed in the end-of-February bankruptcy filing seems pretty dubious at this point. In six months time, virtually no proof has ever come to light that there were more than the 220,000 BTC presently in Kobayashi's wallet. 100% withdrawal of depositors' coins could be a possibility under such a scenario. Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: Rannasha on September 07, 2014, 06:46:56 AM What would be the point of reviving Gox as an exchange with fractional reserve? In order to make good on their depositors, they'd need to earn back hundreds of thousands of BTC in trade fees. But who is going to trust their money to an exchange that runs on FR with hordes of people trying to get as much money out as possible.
Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: itsAj on September 07, 2014, 04:09:57 PM Gox running on a fractional reserve system would not work. People would rush to the exits as quickly as possible to withdraw their bitcoin and people who are able to withdraw their bitcoin first would be made whole while people who were delayed in withdrawing would be left holding the bag with nothing. I hear you. Distribution would have to be staged very carefully to prevent as many of these kinds of issues as possible. Even if gox only made 25% of previous customer balances available for withdrawal, then many people would likely want to withdraw this 25% which would open them up to potential security risks of having that much leaving their wallet at one time. It also depends upon about how much of a fractional reserve we are really talking. The original 850,000 BTC number claimed in the end-of-February bankruptcy filing seems pretty dubious at this point. In six months time, virtually no proof has ever come to light that there were more than the 220,000 BTC presently in Kobayashi's wallet. 100% withdrawal of depositors' coins could be a possibility under such a scenario. I don't follow your logic as to how creditors would receive a 100% payout. There was ~650k BTC in customer funds and ~200k BTC in gox funds that are missing. There is only ~200k BTC that gox holds. Even if the gox portion of the lost funds were to be ignored a best case scenario would be a 33% payout. I am not sure who Kobayashi is or what this story is. Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: DrApricot on September 07, 2014, 06:56:38 PM What would be the point of reviving Gox as an exchange with fractional reserve? In order to make good on their depositors, they'd need to earn back hundreds of thousands of BTC in trade fees. But who is going to trust their money to an exchange that runs on FR with hordes of people trying to get as much money out as possible. My point was we don't know what that fraction is. It could well be 100%. We only have Mt. Gox's word for the fact that there were ever more than the 200,000 btc recovered in the old-format wallet. Example: Let's say, Joe borrows $20 from you for lunch. The next day you want it back, but he tells you "I had $80 in an envelope, but the dog chewed that up. I managed to save two $10 bills. How about I give you one, and I'll keep the other one for my lunch today?" Assuming you bought Joe's story about the dog, then you might even believe he was attempting to be fair. (hint: Joe lied) Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: DrApricot on September 07, 2014, 07:19:20 PM Gox running on a fractional reserve system would not work. People would rush to the exits as quickly as possible to withdraw their bitcoin and people who are able to withdraw their bitcoin first would be made whole while people who were delayed in withdrawing would be left holding the bag with nothing. I hear you. Distribution would have to be staged very carefully to prevent as many of these kinds of issues as possible. Even if gox only made 25% of previous customer balances available for withdrawal, then many people would likely want to withdraw this 25% which would open them up to potential security risks of having that much leaving their wallet at one time. It also depends upon about how much of a fractional reserve we are really talking. The original 850,000 BTC number claimed in the end-of-February bankruptcy filing seems pretty dubious at this point. In six months time, virtually no proof has ever come to light that there were more than the 220,000 BTC presently in Kobayashi's wallet. 100% withdrawal of depositors' coins could be a possibility under such a scenario. I don't follow your logic as to how creditors would receive a 100% payout. There was ~650k BTC in customer funds and ~200k BTC in gox funds that are missing. There is only ~200k BTC that gox holds. Even if the gox portion of the lost funds were to be ignored a best case scenario would be a 33% payout. It's only claimed that there were ever 850,000 BTC of which 200,000+ have supposedly been found. This is not a firmly proven and established fact. The media picked up on it, and broadcast this number far and wide, as it makes a great sensational story. Yet, there is virtually no proof at all that there were ever much more being held by Mt. Gox than the 200,000 BTC "found" .I am not sure who Kobayashi is or what this story is. Attorney Nobuaki Kobayashi is the court appointed bankruptcy trustee who has stated that he now holds Mt. Gox's cold storage bitcoins. Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: Nagle on September 09, 2014, 06:03:56 AM It's way too late for that. Mt. Gox is in liquidation.
Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: DrApricot on September 09, 2014, 10:57:29 AM It's way too late for that. Mt. Gox is in liquidation. You would need a real strong basis to ask a judge to dismiss the Mt. Gox bankruptcy liquidation such as having made fraudulent claims in its original filing specifically to manipulate the court. Whether this is true or not, it would be most difficult to prove. Time to call in "The Innocence Project"?Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: toleng on September 12, 2014, 03:57:37 AM I don't follow your logic as to how creditors would receive a 100% payout. There was ~650k BTC in customer funds and ~200k BTC in gox funds that are missing. There is only ~200k BTC that gox holds. Even if the gox portion of the lost funds were to be ignored a best case scenario would be a 33% payout. It's only claimed that there were ever 850,000 BTC of which 200,000+ have supposedly been found. This is not a firmly proven and established fact. The media picked up on it, and broadcast this number far and wide, as it makes a great sensational story. Yet, there is virtually no proof at all that there were ever much more being held by Mt. Gox than the 200,000 BTC "found" .I am not sure who Kobayashi is or what this story is. Attorney Nobuaki Kobayashi is the court appointed bankruptcy trustee who has stated that he now holds Mt. Gox's cold storage bitcoins. Gox had attempted to get a bailout by it's fellow exchanges, and they named this 650k BTC figure in the bailout talks. They would have no reason to over estimate this figure during these kinds of talks. Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: DrApricot on September 12, 2014, 11:15:12 AM I don't follow your logic as to how creditors would receive a 100% payout. There was ~650k BTC in customer funds and ~200k BTC in gox funds that are missing. There is only ~200k BTC that gox holds. Even if the gox portion of the lost funds were to be ignored a best case scenario would be a 33% payout. It's only claimed that there were ever 850,000 BTC of which 200,000+ have supposedly been found. This is not a firmly proven and established fact. The media picked up on it, and broadcast this number far and wide, as it makes a great sensational story. Yet, there is virtually no proof at all that there were ever much more being held by Mt. Gox than the 200,000 BTC "found" .I am not sure who Kobayashi is or what this story is. Attorney Nobuaki Kobayashi is the court appointed bankruptcy trustee who has stated that he now holds Mt. Gox's cold storage bitcoins. Gox had attempted to get a bailout by it's fellow exchanges, and they named this 650k BTC figure in the bailout talks. They would have no reason to over estimate this figure during these kinds of talks. They may have themselves been fooled at that point. The leaked "trades_summary" file posted to Karpeles' blog in March showed a balance of 951,116 BTC. If this is the kind of management information Mt. Gox had available to it around the time of the closure, it could explain why they were mentioning a much larger number to other exchanges. Who knows where this data came from, or if it is real or fake? The total could have been vastly inflated due to erroneous entries in the Mt. Gox database through an SQL injection attack. This could have been introduced either through break-in or some kind of insider action such as a "janitor attack".Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: zorke on September 13, 2014, 04:01:53 PM Gox had attempted to get a bailout by it's fellow exchanges, and they named this 650k BTC figure in the bailout talks. They would have no reason to over estimate this figure during these kinds of talks. They may have themselves been fooled at that point. The leaked "trades_summary" file posted to Karpeles' blog in March showed a balance of 951,116 BTC. If this is the kind of management information Mt. Gox had available to it around the time of the closure, it could explain why they were mentioning a much larger number to other exchanges. Who knows where this data came from, or if it is real or fake? The total could have been vastly inflated due to erroneous entries in the Mt. Gox database through an SQL injection attack. This could have been introduced either through break-in or some kind of insider action such as a "janitor attack".Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: OhShei8e on September 13, 2014, 05:35:07 PM That file also contained bitcoin stealing maleware. I would not trust it for this reason. Also remember that the trading information was public so someone could have simply have been saving all the publicly displayed orders when gox was in operation and published that in a format that make it look like it was stolen from mark Yes, we should be careful. However, the data contain my exact balance. Many others have reported the same. Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: DrApricot on September 13, 2014, 11:07:35 PM That file also contained bitcoin stealing maleware. I would not trust it for this reason. Also remember that the trading information was public so someone could have simply have been saving all the publicly displayed orders when gox was in operation and published that in a format that make it look like it was stolen from mark Yes, we should be careful. However, the data contain my exact balance. Many others have reported the same. Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: OhShei8e on September 14, 2014, 11:46:20 AM My thumbs are up to independent groups such as gox-self-help that are pushing for a quick resolution of the case and return of available bitcoins. IMHO the thing is quite simple. 1. Mark is a free man, which now even has his own company again. 2. The declarations from the 28th February and the 20th March are still valid and have been accepted by the court many times since they were given. See: https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20140228-announcement_eng.pdf https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20140320-btc-announce.pdf No one can keep and eat a cake at the same time. Also not a lawyer or judge. Either MtGox have operated a Ponzi or not. The court has decided many times that everything is in order and granted the legal bankruptcy process under the given conditions. There were no investigations for delayed filing of insolvency like in other cases (the Madoff case for instance). Thus all trades are valid until the 28th February. Accordingly, the remaining Bitcoins and all other assets must be given back to their rightful owners. Anything else would be a clear betrayal of the MtGox customers. Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: DrApricot on September 14, 2014, 06:52:01 PM My thumbs are up to independent groups such as gox-self-help that are pushing for a quick resolution of the case and return of available bitcoins. IMHO the thing is quite simple. 1. Mark is a free man, which now even has his own company again. 2. The declarations from the 28th February and the 20th March are still valid and have been accepted by the court many times since they were given. See: https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20140228-announcement_eng.pdf https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20140320-btc-announce.pdf No one can keep and eat a cake at the same time. Also not a lawyer or judge. Either MtGox have operated a Ponzi or not. The court has decided many times that everything is in order and granted the legal bankruptcy process under the given conditions. There were no investigations for delayed filing of insolvency like in other cases (the Madoff case for instance). Thus all trades are valid until the 28th February. Accordingly, the remaining Bitcoins and all other assets must be given back to their rightful owners. Anything else would be a clear betrayal of the MtGox customers. Quote Voluntary or out-of-court settlements can be initiated either by a debtor or creditors [emphasis added]. The debtor in economical problems can avail attorney guidance for this. The assigned attorney initiates a conference with the creditors to discuss the debtors economic condition, reasons for the economic crisis, steps adopted to resolve vital problems, the position of secured creditors, suggest payment options or settlement plans, provision for interest on the debt to be settled, any provision of security to creditors, and data regarding continuous business functions, plans and leads. The significant using of out-of-court settlements is adequate proof of its wide popularity by innovative creditors and lawyers who are dedicated to the law of bankruptcy. The benefits resulting from out-of-court settlements have been recognized in the Bankruptcy Code Section 305, which allows the Bankruptcy Court to avoid an involuntary case in bankruptcy registered against a debtor if the termination would better serve the interest of the creditors and the debtor. A well-constructed out-of-court settlement contract between a debtor and an associate body of its creditors stands a good chance of providing its purpose. - See more at: http://bankruptcy.uslegal.com/out-of-court-settlements/#sthash.oKF87WZ2.dpuf[/quote (http://bankruptcy.uslegal.com/out-of-court-settlements/#sthash.oKF87WZ2.dpuf[/quote)] Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: DrApricot on September 21, 2014, 01:08:51 AM My thumbs are up to independent groups such as gox-self-help that are pushing for a quick resolution of the case and return of available bitcoins. IMHO the thing is quite simple. 1. Mark is a free man, which now even has his own company again. 2. The declarations from the 28th February and the 20th March are still valid and have been accepted by the court many times since they were given. See: https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20140228-announcement_eng.pdf https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20140320-btc-announce.pdf No one can keep and eat a cake at the same time. Also not a lawyer or judge. Either MtGox have operated a Ponzi or not. The court has decided many times that everything is in order and granted the legal bankruptcy process under the given conditions. There were no investigations for delayed filing of insolvency like in other cases (the Madoff case for instance). Thus all trades are valid until the 28th February. Accordingly, the remaining Bitcoins and all other assets must be given back to their rightful owners. Anything else would be a clear betrayal of the MtGox customers. Quote Voluntary or out-of-court settlements can be initiated either by a debtor or creditors [emphasis added]. I have been doing a little bit more reading on Japanese law in this respect, and it would appear two things are necessary to engineer an out-of-court settlement:
At present, the depositors (aka "creditors") have zero representation before the court, and thus exert virtually no influence over its proceedings. Are there any international lawyers out there up to this kind of challenge? Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: Nagle on September 21, 2014, 04:51:37 AM I have been doing a little bit more reading on Japanese law in this respect, and it would appear two things are necessary to engineer an out-of-court settlement: As far as I know, no creditor of Mt. Gox has ever hired a lawyer in Japan to become involved in the Mt. Gox bankruptcy.
At present, the depositors (aka "creditors") have zero representation before the court, and thus exert virtually no influence over its proceedings. Are there any international lawyers out there up to this kind of challenge? This is surprising, since a lot of people lost money in Mt. Gox and some of them must have substantial assets available for legal action. Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: DrApricot on September 21, 2014, 10:42:22 AM I have been doing a little bit more reading on Japanese law in this respect, and it would appear two things are necessary to engineer an out-of-court settlement: As far as I know, no creditor of Mt. Gox has ever hired a lawyer in Japan to become involved in the Mt. Gox bankruptcy.
At present, the depositors (aka "creditors") have zero representation before the court, and thus exert virtually no influence over its proceedings. Are there any international lawyers out there up to this kind of challenge? This is surprising, since a lot of people lost money in Mt. Gox and some of them must have substantial assets available for legal action. Edit: Note, one advantage to forming a creditor's committee could be getting, with court approval, to depose Mark Karpeles and other Mt. Gox personnel regarding the whereabouts of any "missing" Mt. Gox bitcoins and cash. Creditors generally have the right to discover assets the debtor might be hiding. Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: snappa4ever on September 22, 2014, 02:08:12 AM I have been doing a little bit more reading on Japanese law in this respect, and it would appear two things are necessary to engineer an out-of-court settlement: As far as I know, no creditor of Mt. Gox has ever hired a lawyer in Japan to become involved in the Mt. Gox bankruptcy.
At present, the depositors (aka "creditors") have zero representation before the court, and thus exert virtually no influence over its proceedings. Are there any international lawyers out there up to this kind of challenge? This is surprising, since a lot of people lost money in Mt. Gox and some of them must have substantial assets available for legal action. Edit: Note, one advantage to forming a creditor's committee could be getting, with court approval, to depose Mark Karpeles and other Mt. Gox personnel regarding the whereabouts of any "missing" Mt. Gox bitcoins and cash. Creditors generally have the right to discover assets the debtor might be hiding. I personally do not think he stole customer money (but rather did not know how to run a billion dollar company) and think that deposing him would only use up valuable resources. Title: Re: Question: Would depositors fare better if Mt. Gox dismissed its bk filing? Post by: DrApricot on September 22, 2014, 02:59:07 AM I have been doing a little bit more reading on Japanese law in this respect, and it would appear two things are necessary to engineer an out-of-court settlement: Note, one advantage to forming a creditor's committee could be getting, with court approval, to depose Mark Karpeles and other Mt. Gox personnel regarding the whereabouts of any "missing" Mt. Gox bitcoins and cash. Creditors generally have the right to discover assets the debtor might be hiding.
At present, the depositors (aka "creditors") have zero representation before the court, and thus exert virtually no influence over its proceedings. I personally do not think he stole customer money (but rather did not know how to run a billion dollar company) and think that deposing him would only use up valuable resources.
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