Bitcoin Forum

first problem is that bitcoin Exactely as cash is portable. So if you lose it or someone steals the device which contains the file .dat you have lost it. Maybe the third won't use it if there is a password but you will not too.
So my idea is cloud. A bid cloud where all files can be kept inside. Not a society holding your btc but a cloud where you hold your btc. I am not an expert and this is only a basic idea.
Second problem is using btc. It is unsafe for same reason. You can lose the device which holds bitcoin. Or the device can be hacked by virus, being the device a pc or a smartphone. Well this can be solved easily. We can make a device peculiarly make to keep bitcoin and nothing more, so super safe from external attacks.
But here is my second idea: this device would not have the bitcoin inside but would simply connect to the cloud I mentioned above to access that file when necessary, using a password or 2 steps password obviously. So if you lose the device there is no problem at all. You can buy another and access your own bitcoin account in the cloud and restore your wallet.
I am very naif so I ask you if this has already been made or if it is possible. Thanks a lot.

Could be a good idea. Though what if some one hacks the cloud?

Terrible idea with the cloud. Plus, a hardware wallet already exists, its called Trezor.

I'm not too sure a cloud would work, I mean they do seem pretty safe for other reasons but for something like bitcoin that needs all the protection it can get and to be kept as safe as possible. With a cloud I am not sure there would be any way to prevent hacking meaning it may not be any safer.

You worried about loss of physical stuffs, but for you the cloud will be unhackable and impossible for the users make mistakes and let others have access to the keys?

DONE !!!

http://www.bitcointrezor.com/

1) Private keys never leave the device. It is unhackable.

2) If lost you simply buy another one, reenter the seed (24 random words you do have to keep secret and safe) and you get all your Bitcoins and your entire transaction history back.

3) You can purchase this today (I have several).

4) Best and safest wallet on the market today.

Not only do we need to make bitcoin safe to use, we need to make it extremely user interface friendly. Why was the iPhone so successful compared to all the other smart phones? It was simple and easy to use. If we can create a decentralized cloud, with cryptography to make the clouds annonimous, wouldn't that make it hacker proof?

Most things in the world are, if lost from your possession gone for good, why does that need to change for Bitcoin?

Are you trying to keep Bitcoin as a storage of wealth more so than a medium of exchange?

Duplication of what "account numbers" is the best security. And eventually there will be some insurance type service (like credit cards) where unauthorized transactions can/will be reversed, which will minimize instances of blind theft.

No one is trying to make cash more "safe" why would they make Bitcoin more "safe"?

Trezor is still rudimentary, pretty sure future versions will be slicker looking.

It is safe and secure, unhackable, has a small screen, two buttons, fits in your pocket, plugs into any USB port, easily recoverable if lost,  and works like a charm.  What more do you need?

Do you want to be able to select the color or something?

I don't get if tremor stores bitcoin online or in the device. If it stores btc online, in your account cloud, it is Exactely what I meant.

Guys, we need One simple device damn easy to be used by common people. One, not many to chose among. That makes things hard and common people want easy choice. Or better, they don't want even to think.
If we reached this goal we would see bitcoin jump a lot.

here is an easy way to create very safe offline cold storage bitcoin wallets

http://cryptographi.com/products/piper

ok i am reading about trezor right now. It is not exactly what I mean. I meant a device which makes the same things those apps for smartphone do now, which is store bitcoin, read qr codes and do transactions easily... but in an extreme secure and easy way. And for what I read trezor does need that you make your own backup... this is more than what common Joe can do.  
We need a device which connects to Internet and do a backup on its own in your personal account. There are several ways to make a account super secure, like 2 steps authentication or maybe even more.
We need a device you carry in your pocket, take out when you have to pay. A device which you only can use.
Maybe iphone 6 with fingerprint recognition and virus proof could serve the purpose? I don't have an iPhone so I don't know.

For what I see, now there are several devices, each one with a different purposes, pro and cons. We need One, good, which fits all roles. Cold storage but even easy and secure payments in the streets, at the supermarket. A thing where you can put all your bitcoin, feeling safe, even if you lose it, cause Noone but you will be able to use it. A password + fingerprint I think will be enough. Maybe add 2 steps authentication to restore the account if you lose it. But you need another device with authenticator. anyeay you should not think about creating backups or other things because it should do everything. When you buy it you will have to create an account where it will put backup of your bitcoin, in a very secure server. Is possible in 2014 to make a super secure cloud?

It would be a bad idea for everyone to keep their private keys in one cloud service (centralized or not). This would create a single entity that an attacker would know that a lot of private keys are stored. Even if your private keys are encrypted the attacker would know that a lot of the keys are not.

What is a good idea is to store a backup of your private keys in the cloud (in encrypted format). The email address used to login to the cloud service should not be associated with either bitcoin or the fact that you personally use bitcoin. As long as various cloud services are storing the private keys, an attacker would have less of a potential reward by successfully attacking a single cloud service.

Regarding to your idea about cloud, there are a lot of issues arising, such as security, usability, reliability etc. If you fear to lose the device, you can use the online wallet like blockchain.org, which has been the most popular and reliable so far.

The common people use credit/debit cards. Our one of many solutions is to make a smart wallet (in a shape of a debit card) to be used on current POS systems we have today. This is how we obtain mass adoption. The average person knows how easy it is to use a debit/credit card. Simplicity will obtain mass adoption. Look at the iPhone, the iPad, and why are they so popular? Its simple and easy to use. TREZOR is good, though for the average person, it will be confusing with the terms "cold storage" and even I am confused by how it all works. Its a good niche market. Though I feel that the average person wouldn't understand it.

The other option is to develop highly secure Apps for smart phone users. Though in the real world, who wants to pay at the terminal with their smart phone? It seems like too much of a hassle to grab your phone, open up the app, punch in your passwords, if in reality they could just pay EASILY with their debit/credit card with a quick swipe.

Its feels like an endless debate and we need solutions.

 A debit card of some kind that is accepted all over the world would be great.Maybe i'll live long enough to see it. :D
 
 
 

Redundant idea is redundant.

The blockchain is already part of the cloud. It is the mechanism by which your bitcoins are stored in the cloud.

I don't use a Trezor, because I had already created a completely airgapped computer. But I get the concept. If you are incapable of copying 24 short words, and keeping these words around as a backup, hidden from others for all time, there is little hope for you as a human trying to survive in modern society. IOW, backing up a Trezor is trivially simple.

if you remove all the buzz words like "cloud". and call the technology what it really is file hosting/remote data storage. and understand real life existant scenario's, you will see that ccloud services are not any better

EG
Apple celebrity photo leaks
blockchain.info wallet hacks
instawallet hacks
mtgox *cough* hacks

the op in his very first sentance had the right idea, although mis-spelled (don't worry we all mis-spell)


meaning TREAT BITCOINS LIKE CASH

if you dont trust a family member or a stranger on the street to hold onto hundreds of bank notes, why in hell would you post it to a remote location where you have never met the owner of the service face to face

yeah, a cloud. maybe the apple cloud  ;D ?

Dedicated devices that can't be tempered with. Regular mobile phones can be manipulated rather easily, thus we need more devices like the Trezor. Bitcoin will have a very difficult time overcoming the stupidity of its users, if I may say so...

I wouldn't trust the "cloud" with pictures of my cat.  Why would I trust the "cloud" with my cash.

Ok I am rather new to bitcoin so I don't know many things. If you lose your wallet (in pc or smartphone) and you don't have a backup (people can forget to do it) you have lost your money right? this should be overcome.
How? you should have an app with automatic backup. An app you only are allowed to use. You don't even need password, in the near future each smartphone will have fingerprints recognition. They already have and will. Then, iphone are hacking proof. Android devices would be if people did not install apk files from outside the Google play store. There are antivirus in the Google play too. So security is much less a problem in smartphones rather than in common Windows pc. So if you make good apps user friendly where you can store all your btc and backup when necessary, on my opinion it would burst bitcoin security a lot. No more problems of where to put bitcoin. You put them in the thing  you carry everywhere which is smartphone. This would push people to use btc when in markets accepting btc. The usage of btc would widespread. A lot.
On my opinion one of the problems of bitcoin is that most people leave it in pc at home, or in some exchangers, while since it is like cash, it should be carried like cash.
BUT with the added security that if you lose it, Noone can steal it. And you can backup it again.
Sorry for my English and my spelling guys. Greetings from. Italy.

Ok I have just had an idea. You don't need a cloud backup. You only need an automatic backup on your pc. With something telling you "now connect the USB cable to pc" and it will make an automatic backup inside a folder well protected and encrypted. Most important thing  on my opinion is that the new user is told Exactely what to do. I am rather new user and I find myself very uncomfortable many times with people telling what to do, because they consider as easy things which are not easy to me.

As the security of fingerprint scanners becomes pervasive, expect common 'stickup' scenarios to include the amputation of the victim's forefinger.

Well kidnapping and mutilation exists even nowadays in extreme cases. Wallets would have a password too so thieves should even torture you to know the password. This is possible even nowadays, when people enter rich houses and kidnap people to know where money is. Difference is that bad guys would steal all your money.
But in the future you could put limits on btc daily transactions so to overcome this hypothesis.

I use a deterministic wallet on my phone.  I use Wallet32 but there are other deterministic wallets.  I wrote down the 24 seed words on a piece of paper and keep the paper in a very safe secure secret place.

Now, I have a password on my phone to access my wallet.  The wallet has cash in it.  But, better than a normal cash in wallet scenario if I lose my phone then all I have to do is buy another phone, install the Wallet32 application, enter the 24 words from my backup and every Bitcoin address I have every used, every change address I have ever used, every transaction I have ever done is recovered "from the cloud" and "put back" into my new phone.

So a deterministic Bitcoin wallet on your phone is better than carrying cash in your wallet!

Also, you never have to back it up.  All you have to do is keep a list of 24 words safe, secure and secret.

I think that is easy enough for just about anyone that is smart enough to own a smart phone.

yes this is interesting I am new and did not even know this was possible. All btc I have are on exchangers to avoid these problems. I am not a tech guy, only investor. So I understand the problems of common people with btc.

There is even a solution for this using the Trezor or another deterministic wallet:  one password accesses a "reasonable" amount of BTC, they torture you and you give them that first password, they take the BTC and leave you, hopefully alive.  But unknown to them you have secured an even larger amount in the same wallet using password #2 !

If your BTC are at an exchange then you do not even own or posses your BTC.

I want that to sink in.  All of your BTC have been loaned out!  What you currently "own" is a promise that someone you have never met, probably in a country far away from you, will give you the BTC you have loaned to them when/if you ever actually want it.

You are way more trusting with your hard earned money than I.  I no longer loan my money to anyone - not even a, or especially not even a bank.

here is a vid of it,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggVKVmcmflk

and a thread on it

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=122438.0

The Trezor is $119.  It is very easy to use and the instructions tell you step by step how to set it up.  You can put your BTC in it and they will be safe.

If you do not want to shell out the $119 for the Trezor you can go with less security but more conveniences by using your phone.  Download Wallet32, write down the seed words and keep them safe, remember your PIN number (password) and you can use that.

There are other wallets for your phone however most of them must be backed up periodically.  Wallet32 never needs to be backed up.

Whatever you do, since you are a noob, get a deterministic wallet to avoid the hassle of backing up you private keys.

Having all your bitcoin on an exchange is probably the best way to have he greatest chances of having your coins stolen/lost. You are not only risking that the site owners run away with your money but you are also risking that your account gets hacked and your bitcoin withdrawn from your account.

Technically I would have a hard time even calling it "his money" or "his coins" since he has loaned them out to the exchange to do with them whatever they please.

What he owns is a bunch of (hopefully not empty) promises, not Bitcoins.

Only store a small usable amount on a phone wallet. They are already as secure as you say, except you want a cloud that is 100% secure, which doesn't exist. They can only be as safe as the user. Keep the rest of your coin on paper wallets with encryption or not. /thread

I know but the exchanger is bitstamp, I set 2 steps authentication and control my account. Coins are still there. I am not a tech guy so I have fear to make some errors in keeping my btc by myself and lose. I asked help here in this forum but none explained my each step in detail.. they simply said "save in your hard drive" but I don't know how. Bitstamp seems quite professional to me. I have used it for long and always satisfied.

Would you put naked pics of you in a cloud? then you wouldnt put the money there as well :P

I'm looking at naked pics of Kate Upton that were "securely stored" on a cloud.

Just because Bitstamp has not been hacked or gone out of business taking all of the Bitcoins that have been loaned to it and running does not mean they will never be hacked or take all of the loaned BTC and run.

Mt.Gox was a fixture in the Bitcoin community for years before it crashed and burned - taking a huge boatload of BTC with it.  Besides Mt.Gox there have been many, many cases where businesses have failed due to either incompetence or malice and taken all of the BTC with them.

You are way more trusting of people you do not know with your hard earned capital than I.  But then again I was burned to the tune of 10,000 BTC early on by someone I did know and met in person and thought I could trust with my BTC so I have scar tissue you do not have (yet).

10000 btc you could be a millionaire right now.. how does that feel? I would be depressed.

If you kept your bitcoin on an exchange then you would have the risk that the exchange were to run away with your bitcoin. 2FA is not going to protect you from this. Also the exchange's customer service may have lax policies for disabling 2FA and/or resetting passwords, potentially making it easy for an attacker to gain access to your account.

Yes, keeping your BTC on an exchange just gives you an additional layer of uncertainty and additional attack-vectors. Your Bitcoins are protrected by a regular private key, as well - still, you risk that the exchange goes bust, or actually robs your coins. You're in every case much safer holding those coins yourself!

Buy the Trezor hardware wallet.

This is true, but the price is too high for someone not having at least 1 Bitcoin. But if the Trezor price could get much lower, it could help secure average Bitcoin user his Bitcoins. Compare the hardware and price of Trezor and cheap Smartphones, and you will see the Trezor price is too high

Even with someone with 1+ BTC, the cost of the trezor will add to the overall cost of holding bitcoin, which is suppose to be free.

EDIT: even with someone with 1 BTC, buying the trezor to keep the 1 BTC safe would work out to 25% of the value you are keeping safe

::le sigh::

...almost makes one wish for that bygone day when the term 'counterparty risk' was discussed regularly 'round these parts...