Bitcoin Forum

I finally got the forum's 2013 taxes finished (after an extension).

Here's the final accounting summary for 2011-2013. All values are USD at transaction time because this makes the numbers more easy to understand, though the forum only holds BTC.


Here are the totals for 2014 up to now. These numbers are in BTC.
- Income: 522
- Expenses: 1505 (1257 Slickage, the rest mostly mods)

Also, 250 BTC was probably lost when treasurer paraipan died, unfortunately. Recovering that BTC is maybe still possible, but it's probably unlikely.

The forum currently has about 5568 BTC in reserve.

BTW, if you are unfamiliar with how tax works with Bitcoin, you'll probably be really confused at how the forum experienced a net loss in 2013 but still paid a lot of tax. That happens because every expense "triggers" substantial capital gains, and therefore capital gains tax. The forum essentially pays a variable-rate tax on all expenses.

If you're interested: I used the LIFO method for calculating capital gains. My idea is to "save up" BTC batches until they become long-term, which has a lower tax rate. My understanding is that you can use any capital gains calculation method, though. (This is not tax advice -- consult a CPA.)

Has anything been done to make sure that in the event of another treasurer's death, their BTC also won't be lost?

Taxes and bitcoin, what is this sorcery

multi sig wallet codes? Ones that start with 3? I think they require a certain amount of OKs from different users, allowing for one user to say no, or be dead

Theymos, how do you handle paying non-US mods? From my weak understanding, it's a super-gray area to hire non-VISA/GC non-nationals to work remotely, even for contract work. Do you send US mods IRS income forms? Is it a MISC form??

(the forum gives out grants, now???)

(Paraipan died...? :( )

I don't understand about this bitcoin tax. The Forum is based on USA? If it is based outside USA do the Forum needs to pay taxes?

Am I right in thinking that there is always a substantial set of 'profits' that are always pending and not yet realised due to your approach? Ie if you were forced to immediately wind up the forum as a company, you'd be forced to declare another substantial chunk even without any further trading?

Mods are not hired employers. And they don't receive much. I think it is closer to a tip than a wage.

For legal purposes, I guess it is up to the mods deal with the taxes whatever way their jurisdiction requires.

In US, company is required to send tax forms confirming earnings, even for contractors. AFAIK, companies can't give "tips" - they have to be set in contracts (no clue on ad hoc bonuses). I shouldn't have used "hired"... "contracted." US foreign labor laws are really goofy when I checked... was trying to see if LTB transcription project could properly report taxes with contract workers and whether or not it was even legal to hire them -- informal conversation with immigration lawyer suggested laws on contracting out to non-US citizens without green card could be interpreted either as legal or illegal.

Were no donations at all received this year or is that just nobody donated enough to become a VIP/Donator?


That would be the best way to go if he wanted others to hold onto these amounts of money.

It's a touchy topic but I think this should be taken a bit more seriously...250 BTC is a lot of money. Some thought should go into figuring out ways to try and recover it, e.g. contacting people who may be able to offer any help.

2013 donations were ~42k USD and 2014 figures have not been disclosed.

Looking at the official donation address of 17RTTUAiiPqUTKtEggJPec8RxLMi2n9EZ9 (per https://bitcointalk.org/donate.html) it looks like ~$1,100 has been donated so far this year. This is taking the fiat value of the bitcoin deposited to the address while only counting amounts under $1,000 (the larger amounts are likely from ad revenue) and calculating round numbers in my head.

@theymos - are you still considering to offer accounts to have some kind of "donator" status for lessor bitcoin donation amounts (regardless if the title given will be "donator" or something else)?

It was discussed in another thread. Atm no, maybe in the future he will do something that will preserve the status of the original VIPs but will provide functionality along those lines.

I have seen quotes from theymos going both ways on this, but I am not sure what is the more recent/accurate.

What I am the most interested in is being able to access the sections reserved for donators and being able to change my username/custom title

Donators say their section is dead

I have head that also, but I would think there would be some interesting things discussed from years ago. Also there may be interesting discussions during times of crisis.

I can confirm... since September 1st
 - 2 new topics without any reply
 - 1 new topic with 2 replies
 - 1 new reply in an old topic..

Total for Donator section :

Maybe it would not be as dead if more people had access to it. I have heard there are only ~30 VIP accounts and I counted there being 111 donator accounts.

What the heck do you talk about in the donator topic anyways, how peasant the non-donators are?

Wow that's a good bit of coin. Not trying to be morbid or a dick but was there proof of his death?

Yea, I know that its a sensitive topic and all, but 250 btc vanished is something that should be investigated. That is a large sum of money, and you guys should really investigate this.

I don't think that the coins are vanished..

Nothing. I hear it's pretty much dead.

Do you know something that theymos doesn't?

Can confirm we are talking about forum peasants all the time ... Glorious Forum Staff Masterrace.

Oh , you were talking about donators , damn , erm nothing to see here.  ::)

I think the bitcoin should be stored in some multi-sig wallets, to prevent this kind of loss from happening in the future.
If not, may be every treasurer and theymos will need to prepare a dead man switch so that someone else (say your family) will have access to the bitcoin and will have the responsibility to send it back to bitcointalk.

Yea I suggested this before. With bitcoin, if someone dies, there money is gone. the government cant take it or give to the family, its completely lost and only if someone brute forces the private key it can be recovered. Multisig addresses are the way to go with stuff like this.

;D Love this post.


Over 5k in bitcoin... great job guys.

Theymos himself has mentioned that the coins are still there, and he will try to contact paraipan's family for clearing this out

Have you considered offering a bounty of 5-10% of the total amount for anyone that helps in recovering the 250 BTC? I had the impression that paraipan was a semi-public figure in the Bitcoin world -- or at least in Spain, so maybe there are some Spaniards that got to know him well enough to know how to reach out to his family.

Maybe give them some time before you release the bloodhounds?

Offering a bounty like that doesn't sound like a good idea to me, not unless all other options have been exhausted, but still sounds like a bad plan. All you'll get is multiple people bothering a dead man's family and possibly even going as far as to try break into his house or whatnot to try recover the coins or equipment they may be on. If he's a public figure then theymos would be best trying to track him down himself first (if he hasn't already).

As someone else already asked, is he 100% confirmed deceased?

How about using multisig, one with Theymos and the other with the holder. It can be recovered somehow if a person die. Any suggestions on this?


+1. Is it confirmed?

  ~~MZ~~

It's just a suggestion, I don't know what measures has theymos so far taken to try to recover the BTC, but if he says:


then I presume he has little hope in recovering the BTC, and a different approach may be necessary. Best to wait for theymos to respond, I think.


I think theymos mentioned somewhere he didn't want to complicate things too much by deciding to use multisig (perhaps because 1.5 years ago it was less popular than today, and less people were familiar with multisig transactions, but that's only my guess).

Who prepared the tax return?  You or a CPA?

I guess the forum took a bit blow when Satoshi dissapeared. Im assuming he was a supporter of the forum, or he didn't give a fuck about donating?

Satoshi was the person/s who started the forum.

I wonder what is the purpose of posting forum finances openly ? Users are not stakeholder. May be, only those who donated, have the right to access this data.

I agree
Just like only the developers of the bitcoin software have the right to access the source code

Precisely what jackjack said. That is one of the most stupid suggestions I have ever seen on this forum, BitCoinDream. You are asking a forum that is used for discussion of a completely decentralized currency to centralize itself and make its finances private. What is the point of that...?

IMO : As this is public forum, making this public would be a good thing too. If donators can only access, then I think users who registered after 2013 mostly can't access as the donation amount is high when considering the value/BTC. ::)

  ~~MZ~~

I dont need to ask it to be centralized. It is Centralized. DefaultTrust is the biggest example of that. I'm skipping the other examples as those are beyond the scope of discussion of this thread. Its funny that someone is comparing Bitcoin Core's development model with the forum !!! How come are they comparable ?

It's funny how people think forum is decentralized. Forum still has a lot of BTC reserve, thanks to theymos.

The thing is that I don't understand why it bothers you
I don't understand the "only xxx have the right to access the data" thing either

Don't get me wrong, I don't think users HAVE to know about the finances. But if theymos chose to do it I don't see where the problem is

Well, that's true. None may have a problem if theymos is publishing the data. Its a like a non-listed company is publishing its audit report. They may or may not as per the management's will. But I wrote it for 2 reasons...

1. A few people, who has zero contribution to the forum in terms of time/money, are asking about someone's death in a way as if the dead person has stolen their money.

2. Open publishing of the forum finances are drawing undue attention of the authorities to further monitor the forum activity... which is undesirable. Regarding the authority monitoring of Bitcoin, even Satoshi once expressed his concern...


BitcoinTalk means a LOT to some of us. We dont want it to be hit for all the unnecessary reasons.

The forum is essentially centralized. I believe that sirus controls the DNS listings of the forum, and theymos controls the majority of the money (I believe he also controls the servers and ISP services provided by PIA).

As I mentioned above, theymos does control, almost all of the forum's money (and likely owns it as well from a legal standpoint) however he has said previously that he considers the money held for the forum to be "community" money, hence why he shares the forum's finances with the community

*full necro mode*

Is there a similar thread for the 2014 calendar year? Not finding anything on google.

he hasnt calculated the taxes for that year as yet

I'm also interested to know more about the actual forum finances (if it's possible).

For 2014? Surely all the deadlines have gone. I assume he's just busy and / or didn't feel like posting it but wanted to check if I missed a thread.

False.

ok. do you have the link or evidence to prove?

In the US (where the forum is based), both tax payments, and tax returns are due on April 15th of the following year for the prior year's tax period. If you are unable to complete your tax return by April 15th, then you can request an automatic 6 month extension (you still need to have 90% of your tax due paid by April 15th), which would move the due date to file to October 15th.

There are situations in which an additional extension could be granted, however theymos most likely does not qualify for any of these.