Bitcoin Forum

Hi,

I haven't posted on here a lot, so realise I don't have much credibility, and if I'm on the wrong forum then ask that a Moderator advise, remove/delete or whatever the procedure is (I'm writing this in a rather rushed way, and not got up to speed on forum protocol).  Essentially I want to make an appeal for financial assistance from the Bitcoin community, and also get some signatures.  The basic story is as follows:

There is a product used by people for all manner of health (eg. HIV, Cancer, or a simple cold) as well has household uses, generally going be the name of MMS (Master Mineral Solution).  For disclosure, I am part of a company that sells this product, but I won't be mentioning that on here to avoid being accused of spamming.

The US Govt will in about a week be Taking Daniel of Project Greenlife, who was previously a competitor of ours and the biggest in the market place, before he had all his assets seized (but this is a matter of Sovereignty and freedom, not commercial competition) to a Grand Juror hearing to request permission for the FDA to classify MMS as a drug.  What MMS actually is, is Sodium Chlorite.

The reason I'm asking on the Bitcoin forum is this is an issue not just about this product, but also of personal freedom to choose, and the overwhelming control that the FDA (and their commercial sponsors) have over the Liberty of the individual.

I can give a whole lot more detail, and have just written to Daniel above to suggest that he get himself a BTC wallet (as he's likely never heard of Bitcoin), so I will get him up to speed on that asap. If there is a trusted member of the forum that is prepared to handle donations (I will of course be donating) rather sending to an unknown person, so as to remove any doubt as to the genuine intent of this email, then I'm sure that would make everyone a bit more comfortable in accepting that this is a genuine appeal rather than some half baked scam.

Even if you do not wish to donate BTC, but are already familiar with MMS, then I would very much appreciate if you would be prepared to contribute a signature at the following address http://iamnotananimal.org/ as the goal is >10,000 signatures that can be used to convince the Jury that there is no case here and permission to the FDA should not granted. Daniel has spent the last several months getting up to speed in "natual/univeral" Law (the difference between Legal and Lawful, USA the country versus US the corporation), and will be doing a lot of his own representation, but there are still costs involved.  I'm not a legal expert, and quite frankly find the whole thing overwhelming, but just want to do whatever I can to get support for him, as a loss for one is a loss for all.

Further, if anyone knows of groups that may be sympathetic to this cause, we could generate a lot more publicity for Bitcoin as well, and make this a win/win situation.

With respect,
Paul

MMS is not just sodium chlorite, it's sodium clorite dissolved in water to produce chlorine dioxide gas. Supposedly, inhaling chlorine dioxide gas will cure everything from the common cold to cancer. What it actually does is turn your blood to acid, causing you to die a horrible death (a bit of an oversimplification, but you really don't want to know the gory details). But hey, at least you don't you die of cancer. ::)

In all seriousness though, MMS IS HIGHLY TOXIC. IT HAS ALREADY KILLED AT LEAST ONE PERSON (http://www.smh.com.au/national/death-in-paradise-20100108-lyxv.html), AND MANY MORE HAVE BEEN SERIOUSLY INJURED. I STRONGLY URGE EVERYONE NOT TO DONATE TO THIS "CAUSE".

Please search the internet and find something like wikipedia or and MSDS sheet, and you'll find that Sodium Chlorite is actually in the pH range of Alkaline.  Anyhow, I wasn't asking for a chemistry debate, but for people to stand together for Soverign rights as a freeman.  If you live in the "United States of America", that is a country.  This isn't the USA we're talking about, it's (and capitals intended for legal accuracy) the "UNITED STATES", which is not a country, but a corporation, which is in Washington DC, not the entire continent of the United States of America.  Note the difference in the presentation, mostly overlooked by the average person.  I would have thought proponents of Bitcoin would be kind'a into personal freedom.  Have I really got mixed up with the wrong crowd here?

Paul

According to MSDS for sodium chlorite, it is "Very hazardous in case of skin contact, of eye contact, of ingestion, of inhalation" and "Severe over-exposure can result in death." It further advises that in case of ingestion or inhalation, one should "Seek immediate medical attention." It also states that one must "Never add water to this product", which is exactly how MMS is supposed to be used (the reason one must never add water to sodium chlorite is because it produces deadly chlorine dioxide gas, which is in fact acidic, not alkaline).

This is not a chemistry debate (the fact that both sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide are deadly poisons is not disputed by any chemist). This is not about rights. If it is about rights, it should be about the right of people not to be told that deadly poisons are in fact miracle cures for all manner of diseases. It's bad enough that there are people preying on the most desperate by selling miracle cures that don't work, but you're apparently not content to just take their money, you must take their lives as well, which is beyond reprehensible.

I can't speak for other users of Bitcoin, but when I use the term personal freedom, it does not include the freedom to kill people by telling them poisons are cures.

If you read the first post, I suggested that a moderator want to receive BTC, not myself.  This is a former competitor to Project GreenLife making a stand for his rights and all of ours.

I revoke my original request, I obviously misjudged the Bitcoin community.

Paul

You Win.  I revoked my appeal already.  Time is precious.

If you look at what MMS does with AZT for example on a chemical level (eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thymidine) then you'd learn something.  I know some of these people personally and have experience of their dramas (eg. HIV symptoms disappearing entirely and can even get people to meet them personally if anyone was interested (note that unlike Humble I'm not claiming cure, I'm say lack of symptoms, which is an entirely different thing)), not just googling and finding unresolved sob stories.  How many people died of penicilin or too much water?.  I'm deeply disappointed in the Bitcoin community if this is representative of the average participant.  I wish responders to this thread well in whatever endeavours you choose, but I'm not looking for conflict here but co-operation.  Please though, learn predicate logic and how to take apart scientific fact from emotional appeal articles.  It's right there in the first responders post.

I back out now.  Case closed and will look elsewhere for support.

Regards
Paul

Well, I doubt this MMS works as advertised and consuming oxidizing agents is generally bad for you, I am sure the same people taking it will just be convinced by random miracle workers/author's to drink diluted bleach instead. People should think of it the exact same way they do drinking bleach, or taking any experimental drug. It might work, but no one knows, and it may kill you. On the other hand it may do nothing and just be a waste of your money. So don't do that, unless you have reason to be the experiment.


Actually, if you know what AZT does, how viruses propagate, and how cancer works, the comparison makes sense. DNA analogs will interfere with both processes, as will oxidizing agents.   With regards to MMS, I can think of many reasonable ways it could work. It could oxidize membrane proteins/lipids, thus interfering with viral shedding. It could oxidize viral coat proteins, thus interfering with viral transfer. It could damage cells, leading to a TH2 mediated immune response and sensitization to viral/cancer proteins you were formally non-allergic to.

The thing is that there is no evidence that any of these possible benefits outweigh the risks. Normal chemo is like an assassin compared to how this would work.

The point stands though, that the same people taking this will also just go buy  Doc D's "Miracle bleach mixer" instead. It is a waste of money for the government to go after this. Perhaps these psuedoscientist's should be sued instead. I'm not sure why this does not happen more often.

What do you mean "instead"? Sodium chlorite is a bleach. That's actually its main use aside from industrial production of chlorine dioxide. I should point out that drinking bleach is not good for your health.

Experimental drugs are tested on animals to make sure there are no major side effects. Although not as safe as drugs tested on humans, they are still far safer than drinking bleach.

The effects of drinking bleach are well understood. They are not pretty.

If only. At least homoeopaths have the decency to dilute their poisons to safe (ie, non-existent) levels. I'll say it once more, just in case people aren't getting it: MMS IS A DEADLY POISON. DO NOT DRINK OR INHALE THIS SUBSTANCE IF YOU WANT TO LIVE.

They affect these processes in completely different ways. There is no similarity between AZT (which is a proven HIV treatment) and oxidising agents (which are not).

Problem: industrial bleach is pretty non-discriminatory in what it oxidises. It kills everything, not just cancer and viruses.

The promoters of MMS are killing unsuspecting people by telling them deadly poisons are actually miracle cures. Going after killers is waste of government money?

Probably because most psuedoscientists promote things that are mostly harmless, rather than industrial chemicals. Do you seriously not understand how dangerous MMS is? Literally every person who has taken MMS as directed has been seriously sickened, and at least one person has died as a direct result. THIS IS NOT JUST SOME HARMLESS NONSENSE. PEOPLE ARE DYING.

No sodium chlorite is not bleach. Bleach is sodium hypochlorite. Chlorate 3=oxygens, chlorite= 2 oxygens, hypochlorite= 1 oxygen.

Clinical trials fail due to side effects all the time because people are different from animals, people are better at reporting side effects than animals, animal trials often only assess short-term effects, and false positives. I think you misunderstood my position though. Experimental drugs are scary; I would never want to be in a position where it makes sense for me to take an "experimental" drug. That said, at least some testing was done on those rather than this retarded "it's all natural so it's safer" concept. I think we are in agreement on this.

I said to dilute the bleach. Dose matters, so does dosing regimen. Really, I hope I didn't come across as advocating curing your ills with bleach. I do not think this, or MMS, is a good idea or safe at all.

AZT inhibits things that interact with DNA, HIV reverse transcriptase moreso than other targets. It will still interfere mostly with dividing cells. I am not too familiar with how effective it really is, but last I heard HIV treatment was usually a cocktail of drugs.

Concentrated Bleach/MMS will indeed oxidize anything, but dividing or otherwise highly active cells will be most vulnerable to these stresses. It is possible that in the right concentrations it could preferentially kill off infected GI or respiratory tract cells leaving the normal cells to recover. I do not think that any positive effects are likely to outweigh the bad here.

I pretty much agree with you that AZT is very likely to be a superior drug to MMS. We can't say for sure because (afaik) all we have is anecdotal evidence regarding MMS, but MMS is likely either diluted so much that it does nothing or has horrible side effects that far outweigh any benefit. There are much better ideas out there to fund.

Honestly I know nothing about MMS other than it is one more bullshit "cure" for people to take and it is some kind of diluted oxidizing agent. If people are so obviously dying from it I would think the FBI/whoever could arrest those selling it and charge them with manslaughter and fraud. Why is this not happening?

Also, if any salt is now "all natural" to the people who fall for this stuff, that umbrella is spreading. The only reason "all natural" makes sense is that the compound is compatible with at least some kind of life that produces it. Although I guess various immune cells release all sorts of oxidizing agents, so you could make the case for hydrogen peroxide, superoxide, etc being "all natural" in that sense. Anyway it is a retarded metric by which to judge something.

If I'd made the same appeal for assistance in defending Vitamin C or Green Tea, would the attacks have been as fierce?  Because they'll be next on the FDA hit list (well, with Codex Alimentarius there have already been some attempts).

I learnt this just this morning:  "FDA does not allow companies to include the word adaptogen as a 'functional claim'."  Police State here we come.  Soon we'll all have to be OpenMesh and TOR just to try to avoid getting arrested for growing our own vegetables or giving them to our neighbours(which is also something else being tried out right now!).

I agree that the FDA has too much power and people should be allowed to make dumb decisions. Maybe I just underestimate how dumb/lazy/busy people are when it comes to things outside their realm of expertise. I don't think that if we got rid of the FDA there would be widespread poisoning though.

But the FDA is like any government agency, there is a need for an organziation like the FDA, but it will only exist until someone creates an obviously superior alternative. The best thing you can do is develop a commercial alternative to the FDA. Investigate all the vitamins/drugs/literature out there to the best of your ability (start small) and publish your recommendations. Getting people to listen will require some kind of magic sauce. A blog/newsletter is not going to lend you credibility. Selling untested "drugs" won't either.

I said sodium chlorite is a bleach. "Bleach" is not one specific chemical, it is a type of cleaning agent that works by oxidation, and there are number of different chemicals that fall into this category: sodium hypochlorite, calcium hypochlorite, sodium hydroxide, hydogen peroxide, and yes, sodium chlorite.

Yes, AZT is normally used in conjunction with other drugs. But MMS is definitely not one of them.

It is not just another bullshit miracle cure, it's a highly toxic bullshit miracle cure. It is not just a dilute oxidising agent. When formulated according to the instructions, it produces a highly poisonous gas.

The reason nobody is getting arrested for it (yet) is because sodium chlorite, like so many other industrial chemicals, is not actually a controlled substance, and it's perfectly legal for anybody to sell it to anybody else for any reason. But it's looking like that's about to change. In fact, the reason for the OP's request for donations is to help another promoter of MMS in a legal battle with the FDA. I don't know all the details, but I gather that if the FDA gets their way, they'll ban MMS outright and put an end to this nonsense once and for all.

---

Neither vitamin C nor green tea are toxic industrial chemicals. I know of no attempt by the FDA or any other government agency to ban these (or the Codex Alimentarius, for that matter).

You won't be arrested for growing or selling your own vegetables; you just can't make outrageous claims about them that aren't supported by science. The concept of "adaptogens" is not recognised by modern medicine. You especially can't claim that deadly poisons are in fact healthy.

Ok. Point taken. I think you starting down a road that defines any sufficiently strong mixture of oxidizing agents as bleach. But if that is a technical term so be it. Photobleaching, etc.


I agree, but we should acknowledge that its (MMS) effectiveness and side effects have not been extensively studied. The important thing is that there is alot of background info suggesting it is not worth anyone's time to study it. People really should assume it is bad. That doesn't mean it cannot be used as a pharmaceutical in a certain manner. You keep claiming people are dying from taking it as advertised by the pseudoscience merchants. Please support this with something more than anecdotes or justify why the anecdotes are convincing to you. A couple assholes who don't dilute enough could ruin it for everyone, etc. *Note again I think using MMS is a retarded idea (at this point) and it would take very strong evidence to convince me otherwise.


I think this is FUD. More people would die if that was the case. What is your source for this?


Why is noone besides the FDA investigating the death's of the idiots drinking MMS then? Bullets are not a controlled substance, neither are cars. I don't advocate donating to this at all btw.

So, I take it, you don't care about bitcoin and just came here to ask for money?
No doubt when/if you get any you will dissapear, whether you are genuine about this or not.

Bitcoin Forums too difficult to fool — scammer goes elsewhere to scam.

By their very nature viral polymerases are error prone.  Combined with a quick life cycle, evolution through genetic drift is quite common leading to small shifts in the reverse transcriptase enzyme.  This is the reason they use the cocktails.  The likely hood of a spontaneous mutant being resistant to multiple drugs is quite low.  Furthermore because HIV integrates a DNA copy of its genome into the host's genome, drugs like AZT can only suppress the infection.  While modern cocktails are quite effective, even lowering the titer of virus in the blood to near 0, they cannot clear proviruses already integrated in to host cell DNA.  AZT's effect on eukaryotic polymerases is negligible at clinical dosage levels.  These drugs are often administered orally or through an IV.  If they had major effects on host cell polymerases there would be organism wide damage.  Fortunately the affinity for the viral polymerase is approximately 100 times higher.  While AZT may kill cancer cells easily in an in vitro test, using them to treat an actual cancer patient would have deleterious effects worse than chemo therapy.  In my earlier post I was expressing skepticism that this solution can not only target key steps in the viral life cycle but also rid the world of cancer.  I'm sure if questioned the OP would agree that it is effective in killing XDRTB or any other modern medical scourge.  The holy grail for cancer treatments would be a treatment that can recognize and oncogenic cell, kill it and leave the healthy neighbor alone.  I have recently read some papers on the use of DNA lock boxes that can carry other molecules.  They can be designed to open in the presence of a specific key that causes the DNA to unfold releasing the payload.

http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090506/full/news.2009.449.html (http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090506/full/news.2009.449.html)

Another front is the harvesting of antigen presenting cells from a patient and exposing them to unique markers from their tumor.  They then re-enfuse them into the patient where the train T cells to recognize and kill the tumor cells.  This immunotherapy is currently used to treat prostate cancer under the name Provenge from a company called Dendreon.  I also remember an article that I read a few years back that used an attenuated vaccinia virus (the virus that causes cowpox and used in the small pox vaccine) to completely eradicated a xenografted tumor on a mouse with no damage to the surrounding healthy tissue.  If I can find free link to the article I post it because it was a fascinating read.

Um, any claim that specific people have died from MMS (or anything else for that matter) is anecdotal. What do you want, a double-blind autopsy? Sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide are known to be toxic (http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/chlorine_dioxide_red.pdf) (PDF). Silvia Fink became violently ill immediately after ingesting these chemicals, and died the same day. That's got to be more than coincidence, don't you think?

Jim Humble, the creator of MMS, states openly that MMS consists of chlorine dioxide, which is produced by "activating" sodium chlorite. The method by which MMS is "activated" is very similar to the method used in industrial production of chlorine dioxide. It is not FUD to say that MMS produces chlorine dioxide. The guy who created it is the one saying it. Chlorine dioxide is known to be a highly poisonous gas (see the above link). Sodium chlorite is also poisonous. These substances are not diluted to safe levels either: Jim Humble recommends a 28% solution of sodium chlorite.

It is believed that more people have died from MMS, though I only mentioned the one death specifically because that's the only case I could find where there was hard evidence. Claims that other people have died from MMS are not unbelievable, given how toxic these substances are.

I wish I knew. Bullets and cars are not controlled substances only because they are not substances. I'm pretty sure they are controlled (in most countries), at least in the sense that a license is required to buy and/or use them. But industrial chemicals are not so tightly controlled, if they are controlled at all. That's just the kind of fucked-up world we live in, I guess.

I really wish people could see the Bitcoin case for freedom here instead of looking at MMS, but since that's where it's heading and the original request has been revoked (not forgetting that I never at any stage asked for donations for myself, but for a competitor to us, and that hopefully a trusted person (such as a mod) could be the holder of any funds to remove any accusation of a scam, which came about anyhow.

Your body needs oxidisers (or oxidizers for our american friends).
You body need ant-oxidants too.

Your body needs Sodium
Your body needs Potassium

This list could go on, but the point being that it's not what it is, but the dose and the combination.  i.e. if you want to take sodium then take potassium with it, in the right ratios, and don't blame one of them for causing the problem alone.  It's an old over used saying, but you can die from too much water (drinking I mean - not just drowning).  Does that make it a toxin?

If you take sodium chlorite and an acid, there is chlorine dioxide (which can save your life if you have pneumonia or something - but I'm not advocating snorting it or breathing it daily or anything like that).  My AZT reference is it's a nasty drug, and MMS will neutralise the drug (also the HIV symptoms go away, but yay AZT!  I know people personally with HIV, and they are symptomless - really!).  Anyhow I'm drifting from my point.  SC + Acid creates Acified Sodium Chlorite.  Now if you think about that in chemical terms (and I'd like to refer you to the document "3 years of HCl Therapy" which is about 80 years old.  If you put an acid like HCl, or give blood, or remove blood, then your immune system goes "WFT?" and kicks into action.  This is where I disagree with Humble, but tend to keep my mouth shut.  I *know* it works in many many cases, but I never make claims, because the reason I think it works is different than what most other people think.  If you drink Chlorine dioxide, the food in your belly will neutralise it in about 15 seconds.  If you don't believe me but want to test this without putting anyones life at risk, then acify some sodium chlorite (thereby making chlorine dioxide gas, which gives colour to the liquid) then put some food (eg. a piece of pizza in there) and you'll see with your eyes the gas is gone.  Now, if you consider that your immune system spends about 60% of it's time cleaning up the junk you eat, and the air that you breathe, and something can a) clean up the food and/or b) stimulate the immune system by creating an imbalance by whatever means, then the immune system is free to get on with other chores, like fighting whatever condition ails you, so you get a double bonus.

Add in some vitamin C, Sodium Thiosulphate or whatever and you have your anti-oxidants (exception: Vit C can conditionally be a pro-oxidant, depending on quantity and situation).

And another thing:

This next link is about Vit C, not MMS, but the quotes are just as relevant in a Bitcoin sense:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0GC9Fq8lfg   (42:27 thu 43:52 for those who don't have time to plough through the whole thing).

This is what I am talking about. You have no data. You have a logical-sounding narrative. So what? Anyone can make one up to support anything. Finding some anecdotes and literature to go along isn't difficult either. This is the old way of thinking. People only need to use this way when they don't have the tools necessary to actually test their ideas in the real world.

You are at... Construct hypothesis:
http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/overview_scientific_method2.gif

Ok. Here are some mixing instructions I found:


http://mmssupplier.com/wp-content/uploads/wpsc/product_images/3ozSodium@28.jpg

I actually can't figure out what the actual dosage is here because I have no idea how the original 28% concentration was calculated. g/100 ml? oz/fl.oz? Either way, you can see that even this 28% solution has been already diluted with distilled water. The total volume of that bottle is supposedly 3 oz, but the website has a picture for a 5 oz bottle with the same label. It is clear these people do not know what they are doing.

Anyway:
1) 2.75 oz Sodium Chlorite 28% + 0.25 oz H2O -> 3 oz Sodium Chlorite 25.66%

2) One drop Sodium Chlorite 25.66% + Five drops Citric Acid 10% -> .3 ml sodium chlorite 4.2%
-a drop is I guess .05 ml.

3) Stir and let sit for 3 minutes.
- Maybe someone more up on their chemistry can help out here, but this step is probably generating sodium citrate and chlorous acid. The chlorous acid is then dissociating into whatever, none of these compounds look stable to me. Some of the citric acid is perhaps reducing the sodium chlorite to yield chlorine dioxide. You let it sit for 3 minutes... so the majority of this gas will leach into the air.

4) Solubility of chlorine dioxide is 8 grams per liter. Since we have .0003 liters of solution, there could be a max 2.4 mg of chlorine dioxide.
-The concentration will be less since this is not occurring in a closed container.

5) You then dilute this further with 1/3 a glass of water. A glass is about 250 ml.

6) So, if no reactions had occured we would now have about 85 ml of 0.015% sodium chlorite solution. In reality it will be a mixture of sodium chlorite, sodium citrate, chlorine dioxide, hydrochloric acid, and chloric acid. Chlorine dioxide will vaporize. The others will either slowly dissociate into oxygen and chlorine gas or remain until the stuff is drunk. At this point they will react with various things in your GI tract. I don't think any of this will make it out of there.


tl/dr: 85 ml of less than 0.015% sodium chlorite solution, but we don't know what % means

Apparently chlorate may get absorbed, which would mean chlorite likely does as well.

http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/9309/1/IND43927546.pdf

Read the study above shiver. This is the kind of stuff you need to have answers to if you want people to take you seriously.

I thought we were talking about Bitcoin and Sovereignty, but just to answer your question:

1.  The above is about chlorate, not *sodium* *chlorite*, acified sodium chlorite, or chlorine dioxide gas.
2.  Number of participants is not statistically solid, but lets ignore that as I'm not looking for a cop out.  Let's instead look at the numbers:  between 21.4 and 63.8mg/Kg were administered.  If you compare that the an average bottle of MMS1 being 120ml and 22.4% (since Sodium Chlorite is only shipped at 80% purity, the rest being sodium chloride), we get a maximum dose of 0.056mg per *person* (not per Kg), so if the average person was say 80Kg, that would be 0.0007mg rather than as much as 63.8mg - care to calculate that difference in percentage terms?  Millions of percent.  Still, it cleaned out the intestinal tract of the heifers pretty good don't you think?  At that dose it would probably take up all available hemoglobin for transport (if we're talking about a gas here) and prevent oxygen distribution, so I wouldn't personally want to try it, but we're not talking about the same thing at all.

Anyhow, about Bitcoin....  Enough about the MMS bashing as it's off topic.

I meant that you should perform a similar study using chlorite, so that there is data out there on the pharmacokinetics, and effectiveness. This is superior to just assuming MMS works the way you think it works.

And back to soveriegnty. I remain unconvinced the FDA should be involved in this. If it is fraud then why is the FBI not sufficient? The FDA should stick to making sure the stuff we buy at the store is what the label says it is without contamination.

It would be nice to have the funds to do a study like that.  I personally am nowhere near that kind of financial clout.

It's not an FBI case, and shouldn't even be an FDA case, since they deal with Food, Drugs and Cosmetics.  There should be no case, as it's a private membership, and more than that he'd even written to them before starting it, just as a precaution asking if they had any issue, and gave them 10 days to respond, after which he would assume by default that they gave consent.  There was no reply, just a long wait (about 6 months), then armed guards bursting into his house with his wife and family there, seizing all financial assets and stock, but no arrest.

The latest trick they've just pulled is to send him mail to "L. Daniel Smith" rather than "Daniel Smith", and after he opened it and seeing it was "L. Daniel Smith" realised that they'd duped him on another count, which goes like this (and I quote):

"18 U.S.C. § 1702

Whoever takes any letter, postal card, or package out of any post office or any authorized depository for mail matter, or from any letter or mail carrier, or which has been in any post office or authorized depository, or in the custody of any letter or mail carrier, before it has been delivered to the person to whom it was directed, with design to obstruct the correspondence, or to pry into the business or secrets of another, or opens, secretes, embezzles, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. "

So now they're aiming for mail fraud too as a backup. 

Shameful. 

Too late now though, the trial is just hours away.

What BS. If the guy is actually hurting people with what he is doing then why can't they pin something on him?

Do you have a url for a the trial? It will be on http://dockets.justia.com

He's not hurting people, he's helping people!


Court case is:

Eastern District of Washington
U.S. District Court (Spokane)
CIVIL DOCKET FOR CASE #: 2:11-cv-00317-EFS

United States of America v. $22,361.83 US Funds Seized from Various Accounts et al
Assigned to: Judge Edward F. Shea
Cause: 21:841 Forfeiture Property-Drugs   
Date Filed: 08/26/2011
Jury Demand: None
Nature of Suit: 690 Forfeit/Penalty: Other
Jurisdiction: U.S. Government Plaintiff



I don't know why the above says "Jury Demand: None", as it is a Grand Jury pre-trial, or whatever the technical name for a pre-trial is (to determine if there is to be a trial proper.

How does he know for sure he is helping and not hurting? Surely different people respond differently to MMS.

Yes.

Though different people respond differently to different things.  I don't know why this keeps coming back to MMS, it's not about MMS, it's about Sovereignty and Freedom.

MMS is an oxidant, and too much of anything is probably not good for you.  Me personally I would say it's about balance.  Give your body both and let it decide.  Your body is smart.  The legal system, well that depends on how you view it and under what context you might want to define it as smart.

It's all a moot point since I revoked my original request.  I was hoping, actually confident, that the Bitcoin community would understand this, but I feel deflated and drained that I met resistance on this subject.  I keep checking in on this thread just to keep my 'toe in', but I know now that it's much like the 99% deal where people have an idea that something isn't right, but it's going to be many years and a lot of pain to get to the point of the subject.

I'm going to go away on holiday tomorrow and I'm not even taking a computer with me, my head is too full, so it'll be at least 7-10 days (probably 14, or more, I don't know) before I respond to this thread again, if it even exists by the time I get back online.  Please don't interpret that as capitulation, I will be back online, but not for a week or two, at least, as I perceive it now. I have my own business and personal issues to attend to, but was trying to drum up some interest before taking a vacation, which will be the first in 6, almost 7 years (including not taking christmas day or new years day off in that period), but now I'm doing it to presever my sanity.

Probably best to let this thread die and forget I even mentioned anything.

Paul

Only a handful of people here care about personal freedom, most people are are concerned more with either profit or being OCD as much as possible.

Almost no one here understands how corrupt the medical establishment is, especially when it comes to the FDA. Currently the pharmaceutical companies LITERALLY PAY THE FDA's SALARY. Conflict of interest much? Additionally natural (read unpatentable) remedies and cures are ALWAYS vilified, even products known safe and effective for THOUSANDS of years. This is an expansion of the prohibition and for profit incarceration state as well as the criminal black market cartels. If you want real food or medicine in the future you will be buying it on the same block the crack is sold.

People are so sold on their belief system of "science" that they forget who is doing all the "science", and never actually check the empirical data themselves. You want experimental drugs? Visit your local doctor. The real experiment is us. Every day there are more and more drugs recalled from killing THOUSANDS of people. In comparison this single reported death is a success story.

Natural treatments will permanently remain experimental, because no company would ever invest the massive resources needed into turning something they cant patent into a legally marketable treatment that would ultimately reduce their profit, not just in the expenditures, but in the lost sales of synthetic drugs! Why would anyone trying to operate a business do that?!

I don't think the "medical establishment" is necessarily corrupt, nor are doctors and researchers dumb. The problem lies in that funding priorities are determined by politicians and bureaucrats. This is on the governmental, corporate, and academic levels. There are many researchers aware of the problems you speak of, it is simply too big for any one person or small group to handle at once. I believe the solution lies in replacing the current system one aspect at a time. The huge success of the "all natural" marketing campaigns being run by food companies speaks to the fact that people want these types of medications if possible and would contribute to their study if provided a suitable means to do so. People also need to be educated on the realities and benefits of science so that they are ready to accept that their pet remedies and cures may not actually work as well as they think they do, or at all. A result saying a remedy does not work is not a bad thing. It is important information.

Remember FDA stands for FOOD AND DRUG administration. The two industries are tied at the hip. Additionally do some research on the newest restrictions under codex alimentarious, as well as the monetary expenses for legally marketing any thing consumed by humans intended to act in any medical capacity at all.

Food sellers are now being raided by the FDA regularly for making verifiable claims of resulting positive health effects ANYWHERE. Technically claiming any health effects at all instantly classifies it as a drug and makes it subject to significant regulation by the FDA. The process you are explaining will not be funded by food companies, and not be possible for anything less than millions of dollars with little to no return on investment.

There is profit in treatment, not in cures. These companies have a vested interest in keeping us unhealthy just as long as we can't prove they did it (easier than you would imagine). Even if it could be proven the settlement will usually come nowhere close to the profits generated from sales, therefore making even deadly drugs still profitable. Why would they stop if all they get is a slap on the wrist and a fine that is a fraction of net sales?

I think you misunderstood my point. If the current legal system does not allow research into "natural remedies" to be profitable, the people interested in such things (of which I think there are many), should band together and fund it out of interest in their own health. I think people would do this if provided a suitable venue to do so.

My point is no one will provide it, in fact the industry will fight tooth and nail to destroy any such venue. They are starting to treat natural health care suppliers, mineral, and supplement companies like cocaine dealers with armed swat team raids becoming a regular occurrence. Not because they harmed anyone, or even because there were complaints against the company, but because they are in violation of FDA policy. Selective enforcement at its best. Flood the market with endless legislation, then let the big companies off with a slap on the wrist and destroy everyone else with the letter of the law. 

I agree the FDA is not performing a service to society here. But we should distinguish between a venue to fund research into natural remedies from just selling them based on assuming they work because some guy said so and there are a couple anecdotes. I am not sure what legal obstacles there would be to this.

I think many of the people making health claims do not know what they are talking about and are ripping people off, either on purpose or on accident. While I agree that the FDA shouldn't be raiding people (their job should be making sure the stuff in the food/medicine is what it says on the label), I don't think people should be making health claims based off low quality evidence either.

The problem is they use the mandate for "public health" to serve the interests of industrial and economic cartels. The pharmaceutical & food industries have a revolving door system with government regulators. They get a job in the industry, go into a government regulation position, then back out into the industry to take advantage of the new regulation they set. If you don't take my word for it just look at the trail they leave. Actually educate yourself on the subject and tell me what I say is not true.

People should be held accountable if they cause damage to others, but the medical industry is whipping up fear and paranoia about natural treatments being some kind of unexplored deadly territory. There is plenty of documentation on the subject if you care to look for it. They sure won't provide it to you. Have to keep those stock options up after all. Plants that grow in your back yard don't pay the bills, and if they do expect the FDA to kick your door in. They need you dependent on the system so you are easily manipulated and controlled as a mass. Anything that creates a system of independence is systematically destroyed, especially in recent years. Additionally, people need to take responsibility for THEMSELVES, and know what they are consuming, natural or synthetic, and what effects it might have on them.

BTW, did you check out codex alimentarius yet?

Here is an interesting development:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDsxkfI0O7I

I think Jim is getting a bit old and doddery (perhaps just too many oxidants?) but if you can follow this (11min) vid until where the lady starts talking, this is taking a very interesting turn.

I want to emphasise once more that this is not about MMS, it's about FDA.

Paul

I did briefly, I will get back to you.

A very interesting documentary about FDA tyranny I found to be relevant to this discussion.

WAR ON HEALTH - The FDA's Cult of Tyranny http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VibVIRsHnI0

Hmm...

Alarm bells deployed...

Warning!