Bitcoin Forum

Besides the miners that HODL since the early CPU and GPU days and besides a lucky few that bought and cashed out before the any of the last bubbles had burst, the majority only lost money.

I was looking on the MtGox leaked transaction data, it seems most accounts that traded, traded to accumulate more coins and very very few realized their gains into fiat. That's pretty bad because if you had invested and you HODLed until the >$1000 peak but didn't took out the gains, you lost twice because either 1) MtGox ran away with most of your coins or 2)Your coins devalued to about $385 (today's price) 3) BOTH options

For the technology geeks that love BTC for what it is and use it to run away from govts fiat, it's a pretty instrument. But for the majority of the speculators it's a piss-poor instrument. See the guys that sold their homes to buy and now lost at least 50%.

Given this fact I believe most speculators are out so we're left with BTC being used only as money to buy and sell things. This might be the reason I cannot see any new adoption or 'new money' coming in. And without no new money, no new rallies and ATHs.

So, we're doomed, we might see prices lower than 250 this year.

Maybe, or maybe not


I still think there's room for more money to enter... $12billion is nothing

Devalued to 3x last years price!! Game is over. Give it a rest wobber.

You don't lose until you sell.

Those who bought at $32 were saying the same thing until we crossed it, those who bought at $266 said the same thing until we crossed it, those who bought at $1200 said the same thing until....

Agreed. The downtrend will probably continue for a while, and the longer it continues, the more ruined investors become, and the more investors will sell to avoid certain ruin...and so the cycle continues.

There will come a point where only those that are willing to watch BTC go to zero are left..  Those people are buyers of BTC.

In that case, you'll be interested in my 100% guaranteed Toilet Fund.  Here's how it works:

1.  Convert the money to be invested into cash.
2.  Deposit it into the toilet.
3.  Flush.
4.  ? ? ?
5.  Profit.

You will not lose a penny, as long as you remember not to sell.

 :D :D well said.  ;D ;D

I've got to say, this place is almost like a parody of classical bad investment advice, and I honestly wonder if people here are trolling or not.

"You don't lose until you sell."

:facepalm:

Between that and the oft given advice of throwing good money in after bad "dollar cost average your way down"... there will be many here who are going to lose their shirts on bitcoin. Don't say I didn't warn you all.

Bitcoin didn't lose people money, just like stocks don't.

People lose money because they are driven by fear and greed, and as a result made bad decisions.

What you fail to understand is that you are no different than those people, you see it as a binary win/lose trade in a vacuum. The only difference is that you are on the flip side "all in" on fiat racing toward a cliff edge backwards pointing and laughing. Exactly the same as all the people who were full btc before it crashed.

I currently have more btc tied up in gox than many of you will ever own. I lost even more btc than that on bitcoinica. I lost well over 50 BTC on mining.

Even after all this I am not ruined. I am still 5figures fiat to the better and have a few BTC to show.

I could have more if I'd guessed everything perfectly, but I didnt. And I knew I wouldn't so I never went all in on anything and instead hedged all my decisions. I did dollar cost average, I do hedge bull runs in fiat. I make smart, boring decisions. Like converting a little bit of fiat into BTC at a statistically significant market low. It might go down further and then maybe I'll buy more.

If BTC goes to zero, I am still not ruined.

If you were, you were doing it wrong. Learn your lesson, play better next time.

How much money *do* you make trolling btc talk anyway?

Well, bitcoin is not an investment. Nor does it claim to be a way to get rich. It is a payment network and nothing more. If we try having an economy based on guessing what the price will be tomorrow then we should expect wild boom and bust cycles. So everything is going as expected.

Anyone who can not make this statement is in danger of a financial meltdown.

Another ridiculous argument.

Investing in lottery tickets is stupid.  Overall, the scheme looses you money.
It doesn't suddenly become smart if you have won--it's still stupid.
You have won the lottery, which doesn't make you any smarter than all of the fools who lost.
I would advise you to stop, regardless of your past winnings.

If you have several BTC tied up in Gox and that doesn't even concern you, then obviously you are significantly well off when compared to the majority of posters here.

Many of them listened to snake oil salesmen and straight up con men like Risto, and his fancy long term trendlines, and are now coming to terms with the reality that they invested their family's savings -- and in many cases, retirement money -- into magic beans. Maybe bitcoin is just a hobby for you, but for these people, they are pegging their future on this and they're going to get burned badly.

A house is not an investment.... yet it is an investment.


Any asset that can appreciate in value is an investment

Well said. I hope you get your coins back from Gox some day!

Also, OP is non-sense. A small fraction of the interested money invested in the last bubble. Smart money, big money, doesn't panic buy. They take their time and different players come in at different levels. They have been and will continue to invest in Bitcoin's infrastructure and bitcoin itself. Saying bitcoin will fail is on par with calling for a $40k+ bitcoin, both are plausible. Saying "we're doomed" for the reasons in the OP is either lunacy or obvious trolling.

That's actually a good one. When buying a house most people think of it as an investment. But when they shop for one that all goes out the window. If you want to invest in a house you should not think about how cute it is or if the kitchen is large enough for you. You should see only price and value. Your best bet is to buy in the slums or other undervalued markets. You should never use credit to invest, so you should only buy with cash. If your financing or looking for curb appeal, your not the investor. The developer is.  

Thanks very kind of you, and quite different from some of the opinions posted by people far smarter than me about how it was a stupid gamble.

I assumed a return of 10-20 cents on the dollar, and averaged down to just over 5 cents on the dollar. It was a calculated risk, with plenty of upside, a bit of downside, and I didn't go all on. Just one of many opportunities that presents itself in life. This one might pay, or it might not.

You are of course right. Market is never binary, buyers and sellers at every level, and thats what drives price action. Not some imaginary bogey man selling all the coins at whatever price until $0 because... FEAR

Agree. What I don't see is how people that buy snake oil always blame the oil, or the salesman, or the poor oiled snake.

As it happens I believe a lost of what Risto says about long term trend lines (you are familiar with the 560k thread yes ;)?) and thus I am hedged in case that happens. Which is a quite different thing to gambling everything for if that happens. Risto is not to blame. People and their own greed is to blame.

Also, i wouldn't say the BTC at gox don't concern me. I rue their loss. I am incensed. I would be much better off with them!

Thing is that gets me nowhere, so I accept the loss and move on.

Bitcoin will make many more people rich, i am sure it is not a question of if but when.
it all comes down to the question when does China stop loaning money to America and America goes bankrupt.
when the dollar dies all fiat currencies die with it, the only viable alternative is bitcoin.

the price right now doesn't matter,
whats the point of tracking prices in a market where a few million USD can make the price swing wildly anyway.
one bored billionaire could single handedly send bitcoin back to 1000$ if he puts 14mil USD in bitstamp right now.

If you're being honest, and not just trying to rope in some greater fools?
Clearly not you.

You're being ridiculous now. If everyone would sell their coins and stay away from Bitcoin like you advise them to it would be worth nothing and have no use whatsoever. Is that what you want and advise? Really? I don't believe that for one second unless you really hate the concept of Bitcoin for some reason and want to see it fail. In that case your advice is not very objective and I wonder why you're still here.

"You don't lose until you sell" is wrong.  It's called unrealized loss.  And actually, this is bad for two reasons:  1) You can't realize a profit, and so your present purchasing power is lower, and 2) You can't even write off the loss on your taxes because it hasn't been realized yet.

It's funny how much this mimics the sort of talk that was going around in 2011.  I feel like I am reading those posts as if it were yesterday.

i don't tell anyone what to do, i state my opinion.

in my opinion bitcoin is the best form of money ever created because it fulfills the properties that money must have best.
besides that, all fiat money in history has failed, none survived its a 100% failure rate, i don't believe this time will be any different.

this is the only time in history when all the world is simultaneously using a fiat system, which is why i believe this is the greatest opportunity in our lifetime,
almost all western governments are in deep debts and will have to inflate them away by printing their fiat money into oblivion.

obviously like with anything else those who take the winning position first gain more.

Welcome to my ignore list.

Here's the thing: the utility of bitcoin is essentially the same as 2011. Sure, you can spend them online with some actual, real merchants now, but nobody gives a shit about that, except for holders who are looking to buy electronics and taking advantage of the short term promotions. But the general public still does not want bitcoin. Yes, the distributed ledger is wonderful, we get that. But for Joe Q Public, there is no point in converting to bitcoin. Really none at all.

The difference between now and 2011 is, bitcoin is valued much higher due to a speculative frenzy. We're still crashing down from the last bubble, that much should be obvious to anyone with the cognitive ability to see more than +/- one week.

Mark my words, we are going straight down to final capitulation. 2011 prices will be returning to a shady, uninsured and overseas bitcoin exchange near you.

there is no better alternative.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/ (http://www.usdebtclock.org/)

I used an analogy to illustrate that doing something stupid and profiting doesn't make it smart.  Bitcoin is clearly not a lottery ticket.

But let's go with your direct substitution, Bitcoin=scratch ticket.
I have not suggested anyone should sell their scratch tickets to greater fools.
Merely that they shouldn't be *BUYING* lottery tickets from those who are selling them.

TL;DR:  Don't be the greater fool.

Dang, interwebs d00d I never met before, tell me it ain't so!!!1!1!

http://s27.postimg.org/c2ayzohpv/worstthing.jpg

Well, now that's just simply not going to happen.

You are really bad at this. You just keep demonstrating how poorly you reason, you really think buying bitcoin is like buying a lottery ticket?

I'd be intrigued to see your investment portfolio. 100% cash in the mattress??

You think of rebalancing fiat/BTC ratio as 'winnings'? Tell me, if you started with 1% of your assets in BTC, which by your very own claims is a hugely risky asset class, then due to appreciation discover that you are well over 50% invested. Would you advise that I not reduce my exposure to BTC?

It's interesting that of late, any suggestions of rational actions are being met with increasingly hostile, infuriated and hyperbolic assertions that suggest instead taking an incredibly reckless course of action, based on nothing other than price action.

None of the bears on here can give a credible reason as to why selling everything is truly the best course of action. Essentially every post they make is "please don't sell your dollars, buy dollars, no please prop up the dollar price, NO PLEEEEZE SALE ALLZ UR BITCHCOINZ".

Smells fishy to me.

As ever I continue to maintain, that you should not buy bitcoin except with money you can afford to lose.

Actually this idea of "you don't lose until you sell" was completely true since the birth of bitcoin until all the way to Nov 2013 which was the ATH. Will it still hold true now? Who knows. But if you believe there will be a new ATH in the future, then that statement is still true; it's better to be patient and gain money than to be scared and lose money.


The only problem is, the rise of bitcoin is never guaranteed

I never told anyone to sell.  I simply told them not to buy your bag.


Why does this need repeating?

P.S:  Though you may profit from selling your coin now, I do not advise you to do it.
You seem to be relatively well-off, and the ethics of unloading your bag on someone potentially less fortunate than yourself are questionable.

What's up with the cartoon ponies?? You post them a little more frequently than a FinTech forum would expect.

Please explain me how does this work? At what point can someone who is new to Bitcoin and interested in it buy some coins and not be a 'greater fool' in your eyes? Is there a specific price point you have in mind that's okay or is anyone buying coins at any point always a greater fool? Or does he have to subscribe to your newsletter first so he can know when is the right time to buy? I'm just curious how you see this and what you think would be the right thing to do.

My gains are counted in BTC.

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/MatrixBitcoin.jpg

I'm providing the antidote to the "this thing can't lose, to the moon, 100k BTC by next year posts.  If it was up to me, n00bs would buy BTC when they were ready to *BUY stuff with it*.
K?

Are you chatting me up, Bitcopia?

Or do you think ponies are my way of contacting my Reptilian Masters (long may They reign!)?

i can assure you, that if you're trading bitcoins for some papers from a bank you are the greatest fool and probably deserve whats coming.

An assurance from you, Robert Paulson, isn't worth the paper it's not written on :-\

how about an assurance from the US government, they will tell you they are bankrupt if you just ask them
http://budget.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=387875 (http://budget.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=387875)

or how about an assurance from reality
http://www.usdebtclock.org/ (http://www.usdebtclock.org/)

anyone who trades bitcoin for fiat is a fool and probably deserves whats coming.

No, it still doesn't make it true even if BTC goes up in price.  If BTC goes up and he sells, he realizes profits.   Losing additional profits isn't a loss at all (unless you're a glass half-empty kind of person).

I'm guessing that you meant something more along the lines of "you don't profit until you sell" when the price of BTC goes up.  But, in this case too, you profit in terms of unrealized gains.

Robert Paulson, your daddy issues with US gov. are dull, repeated constantly by those more eloquent than yourself, & contribute nothing to the topic.

Just delete your posts and help us keep this thread tidy okthx.

i disagree, i think its important for people to understand the current fiat system in an unsustainable scam.
there is no viable monetary system possible besides bitcoin, which is why sooner or later bitcoin will enrich a whole bunch of people.

anyone who trades bitcoin for bank papers today will look like a greater fool than the guy who traded 10,000 bitcoin for a pizza only four years ago.

Do you want to help him with this bag ? It is really very light weight.

I'm not sure if a dollar collapse is good for bitcoin.
Maybe if it takes another 5 years but certainly not now.

@Odalv:  Nah, I actually practice what I preach.  Tough to believe on this forum, and I'm not expecting you to, but...  Take it for whatever you think it's worth :-\

Not in 5 yrs, not in 25. The idea that people are gonna flock to more ones and zeros on a screen in a mad max dollar collapse is quite absurd. That's a situation where tangible, hard assets will flourish.

this isn't the 19th century, trade is global.
its not practical shipping gold to pay for goods and services anymore, which is why tangible hard assets will not flourish.
bitcoin is the only system that allows paying for goods and services almost instantly anywhere in the world and without trusting a third party.

it really is perfect money, nothing old even comes close.

Then you woke up from a dream...

the more preachers the better :-)

you're right, that refutes everything i said.

It just depends what TPTB allow to be money.
*if* they pull the plug out of the internet, gold will be the medium of exchange.
If they allow the world to turn around another 100 years, it could be bitcoin that saves the day.

What you don't understand is, nobody wants a currency that isn't backed by a government or other type of major institution. They want guarantees... as it is, if they lose their bitcoin due to computer security failures or hardware problems, then they're fucked. That's why there is very little interest in it now, more than 5 years after conception, and there will always be low interest.  A worldwide economic collapse on the level that you dream of will not happen within our lifetimes, and even if it did, the idea that everyone will have a device capable of storing and transmitting bitcoin securely, over a global and well maintained computer network, is laughable.

I dont get it? The OP has been around since 2010. If he bought $10 worth of BTC he would have made hundreds of thousands, crash or no crash. Price is up about a million percent since then?

It's not easy to hold through that much gain.

same goes for the miners he was talking about though....and he definitely shouldn't have lost money

bigger fool == Bitcoin is a Ponzi bubble

There is nothing guaranteeing your fiat dollars, in fact they are almost guaranteed to depreciate due to incessant monetary inflation. All circulating money derives value from social psychology, i.e. is in a semi-permanent state of bubble. Choose your bubbles poison wisely.

BItcoin will have had its last ATH only if it has reached its full potential role in the global economy. Such a game changing technology at a market cap of only $5 billion? I don't believe it, we have a lot more to come. When? Only when idiot get rich quick speculators GTFO and let bitcoin do its thing in its own time.

I'm a newcomer to Bitcoin, but I got interested in it for online gambling purposes, not as an investment vehicle.

Is it possible that with more and more people getting into Bitcoin and more and more services accepting it, the price will continue to go down as people are now actually using them for things instead of hoarding them?

I mean, say Bitcoin goes back to dollar parity and pretty much the whole world is using it. It would still be considered a gigantic success.

A $21 million market cap isn't going to be of much use to the entire world. One fancy house purchase would swallow the global supply.  

15mill$ market cap while achieving "gigantic success"

seems legit.

This statement makes no sense at all.

Why does that not make sense to you? Seems pretty clear what he's trying to say

If you're selling btc, you deserve to lose your money.

HODL or die.

That would require a much higher money velocity which is the opposite if bitcoin now. It would be just as susceptible to hoarding to drive up value as now so I don't see that as likely.

yep.  i won't ever forget that facepalm pic!  ;)

Because if the whole world is using bitcoin, then the price will be much higher than $1 / coin.  If only 500,000 - 1 million people are using it today and the price is ~$375 / coin, then the whole planet of 7 billion means a higher price.

When? November 2013, that's when the distribution begun and the big players got rich.

Those who would become rich of BTC already are.

Welcome to my ignore list NotLambchop.

[/b]

Because they will be cheaper in a month

Or you sell your bitcoins at a low price and have to buy in higher? It is a credible strategy for conserving fiat but not for conserving btc.

Fiat is not fiat. I should think that the local currency of very few of the countries we live in have bled 90% in recent memory

LOLWUT

https://i.imgur.com/XOWSUd3.png

Of course. Bitcoin is a zero-sum game. Bitcoin doesn't generate any revenue or produce anything. For every win, someone else loses.

Exactly the same as gold.

I think its worth mentioning that bitcoin does not make you rich or ruin you. It is your actions using bitcoin that determine what will happen. For example a lot of people hear that you can run some code and watch your PC start spitting out money. They buy mining equipment and find out it is not going to work that way. Or they think you can "invest" in bitcoin and it will go to the moon. When a lot of people do this the price is driven up to silly high levels and then inevitably crashes hard. 

That is because speculation is just guessing about the future and produces nothing of value within the economy. No value in, no value increase. If you want to see the price rise you should make BTC more valuable by helping local businesses accept bitcoin. Ultimately it is utility that gives value to bitcoin. The more places you can spend it and the easier it is to obtain them leads to further adoption. Just trading them back and forth for fiat does not help.

The same as stocks, the same as futures, the same of the universe, the same of the atoms...

Welcome to the jungle baby, it's the survival of the fittest

you guys are wrong. bitcoin is not a zero sum game, as ultimately it's use is when its converted to fiat for purchases.

therefore if it gradually appreciates against fiat, the holders of bitcoin as a group would gain. The holders of the fiat would lose. But bitcoin would be a net winner.

Wrong. Bitcoin is a zero sum game. All the purchasing power of bitcoin comes from fiat invested in it. And there is only so much fiat in it as it was invested. It's mathematically impossible for everyone to have more purchasing power than before. Someone has to lose. It only seems that everyone is winning while majority is holding and not trying to realize their profits.

Yep that's because its inelastic.  Fiat money can expand and contract supply to address economic demand.  Basic monetary economics that bitcoiners dont seem to understand

you already trust computer security to secure all the nuclear missiles governments have, not to mention utilities like power and water.
its easy to store bitcoins so that you won't lose anything no matter what hardware fails - install electrum, remember the 12 word seed.
bitcoin gets huge interest from people, everyone is talking about it, its worth 370 times more than the USD, not bad for money nobody wants.

there won't be a global economic collapse, only America and part of Europe are going to collapse, there is no reason for the manufacturing countries to collapse.
and even then it doesn't mean there won't be internet or power in America, the companies that provide these services will still be there, everything will just be alot more expensive relative to income.

bitcoin gains in purchasing power because more and more goods and services are being exchanged for it.
the bitcoin economy is growing rapidly while the bitcoin inflation rate is decreasing exponentially.
that is another reason why bitcoin's purchasing power is going to be alot higher in the future.

"address economic demand" is just a nice way of saying that paper currency can be used to manipulate prices and distort the market, causing malinvestments and shifting production capacity into the wrong place.
indeed the current manipulation of interest rates by central banks around the world is the main reason for the malinvestments in world markets since the 1970's.
its also a tool for the government to rob its population without raising taxes outright.

Wrong.  New goods and services require capital investment.  Monetary supply (credit money) expand to meet the demand for new captical.  Central bank control cost of credit using monetary policy.  These policies try to counteract extreme swings in business cycles.  Why do you think fiat is so stable?  Because its elastic

Your mistake is thinking goods are exchanged for bitcoin its not.  Its exchanged for fiat.  Bitcoin price is purely speculative

Its because you don't understand monetary economics

Of course. If you don't get this, you're one of the suckers.

let talk about this in 5 years ... http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120509024953/mlpfanart/images/4/48/Dude...no..gif

Yup, lots of people bought at the god damn 1k peak hyped about the whole thing "woww, its still so cheap, we can still be like them". I feel sorry for these that got into loans and shit and had the missfortune to buy at the ATH. Maybe if you hold until you are a grandpa, you recover the gains.

when central banks manipulate the cost of credit they don't only increase capital investment, consumption is equally increased, the net result is zero increase in resource allocation for capital investment.
even if the central bankers could only increase capital investment they have no way of knowing what millions of people actually want to consume, any allocation of capital they will make will be wrong.

these interest rate manipulation policies are exactly what causes the extreme swings in business cycles, fiat is stable? compared to what? this doesn't look stable to me:
http://s17.postimg.org/gdze88mjz/Untitled.png

goods are exchanged for bitcoin, the fact that people choose to foolishly convert their bitcoin to fiat afterwards doesn't change that.
i understand monetary economics perfectly fine.

Why you post a chart of SP500?  How much has euro fluctuated against usd this year compared to bitcoin?

Watching ancap videos off youtube doesn't mean you understand economics

i post a chart of the S&P 500 because paper fiat needs to be compared to something real, either companies or commodities, its not stable relative to neither.
the chart of the S&P 500 also clearly shows how the interest rate manipulation causes resources to be misallocated causing an unsustainable boom that is followed by a bust.

the USD is not stable even compared to other paper fiat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Dollar_Index#mediaviewer/File:U.S._Dollar_Index.png

And what exactly do you expect to happen in the next 5 years?

Oh yeah, you hope new suckers will join the party and bail out the current losers?

But then again, if bitcoin is $5000 in 5 years you will still have losers, just not the current ones, but the future ones who have yet to join. The point is there is always someone who loses.

you are wrong, as the bitcoin economy grows everyone's purchasing power is increasing without anyone losing.

No one here gives a shit that there a few lightweights, making 99% of the noise here, that "invested" in bitcoin by buying 0.1 btc with the money their grandma gave them for their birthday...are now "ruined"....stfu, sit tight and listen more than you talk and you might learn something. If you can't do that, sell your pittance and never come back...at least we won't have to listen to your whining.

TL;DR Man-the-fuck-up you so called "investors".


 

What are you yammering on about? SP500 just index of 500 stocks.  What does it have to do w your argument about bitcoin and purchasing power?  I dont understand what point you are trying to make.  That stock prices go up and down?  Whats the link to M1 or M2?

Dollar is not stable??? Hahaha good one.  What do you call bitcoin volatility then?  

In past 10 years USD only variance of 12pts.  In past 4 years only 2pts variance.  There might be a more stable currency but USD is pretty stable

Im anycase I was talking about all fiats not any particular fiat

the S&P500 has nothing to do with my argument about bitcoin and purchasing power (not directly at least), you claimed fiat money was stable and yet it fluctuates wildly against both stocks and commodities.
if the only stability fiat paper has is against other fiat paper then that's no stability at all, not until the day you can eat paper money.

http://www.cxoadvisory.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/M2-SP500.png
despite the central bank's inflation of the money supply the stock market keeps crashing down.
my argument is that the malinvestments the banks make (with purchasing power stolen from the population by the way) keeps inflating unsustainable bubbles instead of real economic growth.
real economic growth is the production of goods and services that people demand.



bitcoin is only 5 years old, its volatility will decrease once the volume of its markets will increase.
 

^this^
+21,000,000

Wrong. Bitcoin is a vastly more efficient value information technology than any of the current monetary technologies.

The cost benefits to global commerce from increased efficiencies in value transfer and storage will be reflected equally in the final long run valuation of bitcoins. It is patently obvious to any impartial, rational, intelligent  observer that it is far from a zerosum game.

It is analogous to pointing at a backhoe digging ditches 100's of times faster than a team of guys working with shovels and claiming "back hoes are a zero-sum game, who can win if we all use backhoes instead of shovels?".

Hey, go and buy up all those shovels before they go obsolete, they might have some numismatic value one day ;)

yes, the people that want that bitcoin get him rich.
not me.
i want a "protection" against bankster job ... lobbying law to freeze my life economies.

i want, too, a protection again inflation.
bitcoin do this greatly.

You've lost 2/3rds of your money since the beginning of the year.
Your bitcoin BUYS 2/3rds less than it did at the end of 2013.
If you kept your money in $$$, you would be able to buy 3x more BTC now.

http://s18.postimg.org/rlinvig3d/twi.gif

These are just fools that don't listen when logical, knowledgeable people tell them to sell.

They deserve to lose their money.

..and you expect thet somehow, some way, everyone at once becomes rich?! :))) What a bullshit topic.

The decline in Bitcoin price is intentional manipulation.

Hedge Funds, Global Corporations, and yes even Governments are getting into Bitcoin. This isn't rumor this is fact.

These giant players may be new to Bitcoin, but they know how financial markets work. Simply put, they want to pay as little as possible per BTC, and they are going to make a fortune.

The BTC market is so thin it takes very little (in their world) to drive the price down.

Make no mistake that at this very moment companies like EBay, Amazon, and so on are in the process of suppressing the price of BTC, buying as much as they can, and holding. The money is nothing to them big picture wise.

Then when the announcement comes, the price will skyrocket, and they will have major supplies to slowly filter back onto the markets. 

As crazy as I sound, we're all really just waiting to hear the EBay (PayPal already on board and is owned by EBay) and Amazon (has already publicly said they find BTC interesting) announcement. Only a matter of time.

My last point, Amazon only runs a 1-2% profit margin. Yet they pay 2-4% in merchant fees for Visa/MC/Amex. Sales with BTC would double or triple their margin. That's huge. They would NEVER publicly talk about this, because they NEED Visa, Amex, and MC.... But they are thinking it.

Strato

While the stories remain murky, it's always best to temper your trades with some TA. Believing in stories true or not is dangerous.

@NotLambchop What the heck is that? Wait, I know, some guy in King's Cross was handing it out? :-P

What is true is that for big money, crypto as it is now is not attractive at all. Why make some of the current crowd rich?

http://www.angels-heaven.org/  <==100% true!

The question is, if you invest now, will you be the one making huge profits or lose money ;)

... the same as has it been always, fear of missing out and greed trumps envy.

Because they would like to enter a market without trumping these fools first? You are very naive.

... mmm, probably.

But where were you when the fools and the naive were building things that could make the world a better place? Slumming it with the godlike, oh-so-wise big money supposedly?

By a large margin, most bitcoins mined are not sold on exchanges. They are held. Most of the money on exchanges never saw a bitcoin wallet, they are only cash-in, cash-out traders. People that know Bitcoin, know that it is worth far more than gamblers about its future. Gamblers don't know anything about exponential growth. They only know how to bet on single digit margins, not two or three digit margins. They will still be playing single digit margins after they miss out on the next double or triple digit jump. That's just what they do.

just do better than byuing and hodling and you probably won't lose even if the hodlers are ruined

+1  Although I believe the dynamics of held vs sold mined coins was as you suggest, but is quickly becoming, if not already, no longer.

Fair enough points Wobber
It is a losing position currently that does not mean that it has to be in the future
Look forward to tommorrow and hope it doesnt bring destruction with it ^^

I'm learning a lot from you, brother. Very interesting

I like the idea, but how do you know? Do have some proof?

Agree!

I really hope so, because my bank account is showing triple digit fiat figures lately.

Unless you see millions of bitcoins trading somewhere that I don't, I'll have someone add them to the charts. Last I saw somewhere, bitcoin days destroyed was far less than 10% which means that even if every bitcoin that changed addresses was sold, it still wouldn't be much. I would guess that less than 2% are exchanged. If you bring Mt Gox into the calculation, then it's really far less than 2%.

Not sure what Bitcoin days destroyed has to do with newly minted coins being sold?

I too believe that the majority are held but the increasing number of transactions leads me to believe a good amount are changing hands off exchange

Newly minted coins should be distributed. They could account for daily volume, but not much more. As far as off exchange trading goes, they have little bearing on price because we only have exchanges to report that. Dark pool trading is a game as much as open trading. I don't see the point to doing it.

I'm not suggesting there is trading off exchange but only that blocks of coins are sold by miners off exchange to buyers.

I don't believe they put pressure on the exchange price either but in some way they satisfy a demand that would otherwise buy on exchange

"Bitcoin made rich just a few but it ruined many"


Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!  :D


I'd like to hear more about the people it ruined and, if possible, in similar quirky English.

Feel free to start your narratives using the phase, "I was ruined by Bitcoin because..."

 ;D

I was ruined by Bitcoin because it killed teh pony dat broke ma nose!

Did the OP thank you for helping him make his point?

bitcoin is a miners scam

Only people making money in this:

-scammers
-early adopters
-miners
-exchange operators
-only the best traders

and nobody else.

Same reasons I quit stock trading and became a pimp.  ;D

Yesterday I was watching that documentary called "The Rise & Rise of Bitcoin"

I saw how many times Bitcoin "doomed"....   and rose again, like a Phoenix.

Look, Bitcoin is zero-sum. For every win, there must be a lose. Somebody has to put in cash and not get it back. Bitcoin needs a lot of suckers losers to keep it going.

They're called HODLrs.

I can't agree completely. Only for 2013 and 2014, when the speculative value rose (and slowly deflated) much higher than the utility value.
IMO in 2012 the speculative value was closer to reality. And since bitcoin economy has grown from SR1 to clones with a larger market activity,
there still is a lot of utility value for bitcoin. Which utility value may rise in the near future if Openbazaar will catch on.

You're right, I guess the HODLers of gold purchased this year are the losers and the sellers of that gold from 10 years ago that now have fiat instead are the only winners.  Pshh, stupid gold bagholders.   ::)

Awwwh Nagle is upset that bitcoins still aren't worth less than zero. Poor Nagle. Keep the insults flying for another three years and perhaps your dreams will come true.

I assure you I am none of these, but I'm up $10k+ trading altcoins. I consider myself a terrible altcoin trader, I should be up $1m.

Don't understand why people just see this last year. Take the last 2 years and see. BTC is the best performing investment in 2 year, 3 year or 5 year periods. 1 year is not what you see to when you want to invest into something!

This is not necessarily true. Some people have legitimate needs for money when they sell their bitcoin so even though they lose out on further price appreciation they get something they were in need of. 

This is a difficult concept for some folks. You see it predates the 1980's, the time when credit card offers filled mailboxes from sea to shining see. It was before home equity lines of credit and sub prime lending. There was a dark age in history when people would actually save money.

again... WHOOSH...

Bitcoin didn't ruin anyone. People ruin themselves.

*grabs popcorn*

so much butthurt here

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzpndHtdl9A

Does it sting that you failed to 'HODL' from 2011 and missed out on the enormous gains that followed? Thanks for your objective opinion! Suckers :)

Sorry for the old quote but this just caught my eye.

Truer words have never been spoken.

There are showmen and there are rubes.

Developers and bankers are showmen. Mortgagors are rubes.

This is an old story. A few get rich the rest get screwed.

Look at what you can buy in Vancouver for 950k. https://i.imgur.com/jzdU3lW.png It's straight madness of the crowd. People don't realize that renting a house or renting money to "own" their house is the same thing but the former is almost always cheaper. There is of course always the option of holding one's nose and moving to Detroit.

https://i.imgur.com/4aZaqQI.png

in my oppinion market is down because there is too much mining going on and they have to sell BTC to stay afloat