Bitcoin Forum

400 European Banks Accept Bitcoin Purchase Agreement
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/400-european-banks-accept-bitcoin-purchase-agreement/

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-sell-wall-death-chomped/

Opinion: When banks step in, they will use their artificial currency to short sell Bitcoins. You will soon see the price of Bitcoin fall below $100 mark. You will start to read articles and hear about mysterious things about why Bitcoin price falling and falling.

The problem with borrowing the coins to short sell is that they don't have the coins to let people borrow. They will just create the illusion that there are coins to borrow to short sell.

You should always keep in your mind that Bitcoin mining difficulty is at: 34,661,425,923
It's really hard to acquire coins.

You will start to see a lot of high frequency trading methods banks have used on Wall Street to drive price down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uX_bB_4VJk








https://bensbitterblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/falling.gif?w=676

Interesting that you mention short-selling.

I was just reading this http://www.coindesk.com/coinarch-brings-investment-banking-products-bitcoin/.

Will bitcoin become (even more) volatile?

I saw this. It says you can buy bitcoins from any bank. Can I get euro for bitcoins? And is this from any bank or any bank using Sofort?

I cannot access 247Exchange.com at work so I will definitely check it out when I get home.

There are only a limited supply of coin in circulation.

How exactly are they going short sell bitcoin?

Short selling has been available for years. It is available on many sites, BitFinex is the most popular at the moment.

You borrow people's bitcoins and you short them.

You know too well that people do not leave their bitcoins on website, MTgox taught them that lesson. So, where are they getting the coins to let people borrow?
Think about it and you will know.

I have loaned people bitcoins myself to be shorted. It is one of the few ways to get interest on your bitcoins.

And there are a whole lot of people with bitcoins on websites. I have 11 still on BitFinex just because.

short selling bitcoin is as simple as messing with a mysql database the meant to represent a balance of real bitcoins.

i prefer localbitcoins and otc's, where the true blockchain coins live.

offchain trading on mysql databases have been happening for years

really? That say that i can buy the BTC and sell btc accord the bank which i have the account of it?

To say Short Sell is very redundant, shorting a currency is defined as selling the currency, when I go shiort I am selling when I go long I am buying. So now yu know more about currency trading lets get onto another falacy in your report. It is quite easy to obtain bitcoins for free at that. they are called faucets, bots for the faucets browser addons and proxy servers will have you owning 3 to 5 bitcoins by then end of the week. It is not as complivcated as you may think to "aquire Bitcoins"

now what your report is correct about, the banks will indeed turn bitcoins into the next Gold revolution by enlisting them in paper contracts, they are doing that with gold now and havfe been doing ti with gold and silver for years upon years decades upon decades, so yes they will find a way to short paper contracts on bitcoins that they most certainly will not have possession of. However this is not as much the banks fault as it is the investors who buy these contracts knowing full and well it is an IOU that is backed by nothing, the investors and investment firms who purchase these paper contracts already know the bank doesnt have what they are promising, as the buyer you hope th bank will indeed come thru on their promise which then takes the percentage of the blame the buyers had away from them because at the end of the day its the bank who makes the rules and they know as sure as god made little green apples they will not be buying the gold nor giving it back to the investors as they will manipulate the price of that market to fall so drastically just minutes before the contract expires so not to have to pay the investor anything if not a loss on his investment. Dont believe me look up barclays bank lawsuits on Google you will see 2 one very very recent and one just a few years back, how ironic both of the lawsuits were for doing the same thing, manipulating the price of gold so they didnt have to pay a profit to their contract investors.

Just let the banks make their own coins and stay the hell out of our bitcoin projects, we dont need their stupidity tarnishing the name bitcoin has built for itself.

The sad thing is this is perfect for the banks because they can set up their own contracts and they wont have to worry about the price becasue the contracts they sell wont effect the market like gold contracts effect the commodities market, thats a HUGE difference , now what we need to ask ourselves is "are they already doing it" what people say are "BUBBLES" may not be bubbles but the contracts the banks have sold expiring, because even gold contracts expire at the same time every year :) we see the price falling and fgalling and falling and everyone says Oh it does this every year, but have you asked yourself WHY? and gotten a full proof true answer and not just speculations? As a forex trader in all honesty It looks EXACTLY like what happens to the gold and silver markets when contracts expire DOWN DOWN DOWN the price goes.

As long as people withdraw real Bitcoins, they cannot just sell you unlimited Bitcoin IOU

There is nothing you can do to stop the creation of BTC derivatives, contracts, etc.  So stop worrying about it.  If two people/entities want to create a contract between them that says if BTC goes up you owe me X dollars, if BTC goes down I owe you Y dollars more power to them.  Why do you care?  

There is also nothing you can do to stop me from lending out my BTC to someone so they can short the market.  Mind your own business.  If I want to lend my BTC out for the interest that is my prerogative.  Stop worrying so much about what other people do with their property.

If you want to keep physical possession of your BTC then do it (highly suggested).  If you want to lend them to a bank or exchange in order to make interest then go for it - but you might lose them all so be careful.

All this wringing of the hands about something that is absolutely certain to occur (contract and derivatives) which is also something that you cannot stop and really cannot be stopped is just plain silly.

In fact if you are certain that this news is going to drive the market down then you should short it.

Simply because bitcoin was created for everyone this will be one of its uses. Am I happy about it? Surely no, but making something like that impossible would require too many restrictions and bitcoin would not be what it is today.

This is when the exchage/bank goes bankrupt and either gets a bail out from the gov (AKA stealing YOUR MONEY to ensure their bad raping pracites can continue...) or they fail.

Back in the 1200's the banks tried and did this with gold.. it ended with hangings as it should in 2008.. instead our gov stole your and my money to bail them out from cheating you..

Nothing was ever fixed..

Here I stand with Crypto, PM's and food, water and zero debts.

Watch What Happens When Someone Dumps Tens Of Thousands Of Bitcoin At Below-Market Rates
http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/06/watch-what-happens-when-someone-dumps-tens-of-thousands-of-bitcoin-at-below-market-rates/

This is base on the assumption that he/she have thousands of Bitcoins to dump and not using borrowed Bitcoins from their customers to dump.

This is probably also one of the more safe way to "invest" your bitcoin, provided that the exchange can be trusted with your bitcoin.

Another feature of facilitating short selling is that it will help the price of bitcoin be more stable as bubbles will be less severe and crashes will be smaller as people will short bitcoin during a bubble and cover the short position during a crash

Especially in prices so low, like below 100..

They could in theory create a market at any price they want as long as they play market maker, but the limited supply over time of bitcoin takes care of this. If the banks do not send the coin when people demand them, the bank goes bust.

Perhaps in this sense, bitcoin could be the cog that breaks the whole machine... that would be cool...

You can only short a paper contract as long as speculators are willing to buy the contracts that you are selling.

Such paper contracts have been traded at ICBIT.SE for years; shorting is only profitable when there is speculative demand.

+1

Great explanation for short selling.

I really hope this does not happen to bitcoins.


Can you see bitcoin having a speculative demand anytime in the future? I think a great deal of people are forgetting that the currency aspect is only a very small aspect of bitcoin. The much greater portion lies in its services/side chain technologies. This is not something that can be manipulated. hopefully...

Offchain trading can not influence bitcoin price for long without threatening the solvency of the exchange.

If you mean shorting then people already do it all the time - any time they sell BTC.  You can also borrow BTC in a margin account in order to sell them at https://www.bitfinex.com

You can also borrow USD in order to buy BTC on margin - do you think that is evil or is only the borrowing of BTC in order to sell them what you dislike?

I lend a lot of USD and BTC all the time there.  It is great because as long as the exchange itself it honest and viable the USD and BTC I have there are safe and the exchange takes care of getting me my principle and interest back.  Assuming an honest exchange my loaned out funds are safe because my loans never leave the exchange.  Works great, please don't try it because according to many here loaning funds is the root of all evil.

Shorting, buying BTC, shorting on margin, buying BTC on margin are not the evil things you make them out to be.  Even fractional reserve accounts will have their place and no amount of hand wringing on your part is going to stop it.

The point is that it is your choice whether you want to participate in these things or not.  Participation has its rewards and, of course, its risks.  If you want to play it safe then put your BTC into cold storage and put your USD into cash and hide it in your mattress.  If you want to make interests then loaning your BTC and USD to speculators on a reputable exchange, depositing your USD or BTC into an interest bearing fractional reserve accounts, etc. should and will eventually be available to you.

Amen. You guys wanted financial freedom. Money without rules. Well, congratulations. Bitcoin is that money and of course people who know about money are going to experiment will all sorts of assets based on bitcoin. Surely your not suggesting that regulators come in and decide who can do what with their bitcoin.
Bitcoin is fair, but don't confuse that with kind. It does not solve inequity by favoring users who have less or by enforcing rules for banks and the wealthy. The fairness is that you can do exactly what they can do. You could also short BTC, for example.

But hey, thanks for the "warning" that bitcoin can now be used more easily.   

When you hear news such as: 400 European Banks Accept Bitcoin, that's how you know Bitcoin is now officially a fiat currency.
Otherwise, the Banks would not be interested in it.