Bitcoin Forum

Have you felt like being betrayed by the ASIC manufacturers lately?  You are not alone.  We all feel the same way.  We, as home miners, popularized bitcoins through our supports and utilization.  It was written in stones that ASIC manufacturers produce the machine and we as home miners use them to mine.  It used to be a sin for the manufacturer to mine and compete with us. 

Now the unwritten laws are broken.  ASIC manufacturers are plainly setting up data centers to mine.  They are directly competing with us, the backbone of ASIC supporters.  They are betraying us. I hope this will lead to the collapse of btc and the eventual death of the ASIC manufacturers. 

I hope we as home miners will just dump bitcoins and let it collapse.

Please don't try to speak for everyone, especially when the majority probably disagree completely.

This thread is the equivalent of saying "I can no longer pan for gold in the creek behind my house so let's crash the gold economy!"

Bitcoin mining is moving towards more efficient, industrial scale operations. Get over it. If you didn't see that coming you are a fool.

I'd suggest you dump all your btc and exit cryptocurrencies completely because it's clearly not for you if you are calling for the death of a 5 billion dollar revolutionary currency just because you specifically can no longer make money by plugging a machine in to your wall outlet.

Welcome to capitalism.

And capitalism will dictate that they will crash the price, and they will all go bankrupt,except for very few very big and smart people, and the rest of us who mine for fun/profit/heat/passion

that,s capitalism, just look up rockafeller and what he did to the oil industry.  its going to be a rough ride

Exactly. The big fish swallow up the big fish.

Happens in business all the time.
Happens in nature all the time.
Fighting the forces of nature may be futile.
Studying, understanding, and leveraging  the forces of nature might be more worthwhile.

ASIC manufacturers have been self-mining since day one. It was never "written in stone" that they wouldn't compete with home miners. Bitfury, Avalon, ASICMiner, BFL... all mined with their own equipment. In fact, Bitfury and ASICMiner announced to the world that they intended to use profits from retail sales to fund their datacenters.

So you're a fool if you've just suddenly came to this realization.

Companies like Bitfury, Bitmain, ASICminer, Spondoolies, have done a pretty good job. They delivered decent hardware with minimal failures.

Companies like Avalon, BFL, KNC, Bitmine, AMT, and many others have betrayed their customers. They had massive failures and their customers were screwed because of it.

While the increasing difficulty means it's harder to mine, that also means that the network is more secure, and that's a key factor. Your bitcoins are safer, and their value will continue to grow. HODL.

Bitfury, Bitmain, ASICminer, Spondoolies

Did these companys did really god job ? It is always possibility to them to starting to cheat their customers.

It appears Satoshi always expected there would be 'big server farms' rather than lots of small miners.   

They were always competing with you.  If you have a device that will generate say 10BTC over the course of it's life (say 3 months) there is little reason to sell the device for less then 10BTC.  This should be fairly obvious to everyone.  What I think people like you have trouble understanding is that the manufacturers didn't get into this business to design, build, and SELL asics.  They got in this business to mine.  Taking on customers is a means to an end, in that it provides up front capital (pre orders) and allows them to pass all risk onto someone else while still retaining all the profit (since they never deliver until the devices are "used up" so to speak).
Once you start to see their primary business as being mining, and not the selling of asics, everything makes a lot more sense.

The thing is, it is easy to get mad at them, but read my first line again.  If you have a device that will generate 10BTC would YOU sell it for less than 10BTC?  Just head over to the for sale section; it isn't just the manufacturers that do this.

They were doing this for a long time. KNC was accused of delaying shipments to mine months ago. Same thing with BFL.

don't be too hard on the OP.  sounds like difficulty w/power cost is making him think about powering off his miners.  home mining is getting to the point of ridonkulousness

If the asic manufacturers has decided to keep their snouts out of the mining trough and actually support the customers that financed them, then the difficulty would be considerably lower and miners might still be making money.

All that happened was a serious of on-shot deals based on pre-orders, which would have been fine if the manufacturers had put plans in place to keep their original customers supplied with a steady stream of products as the difficulty rose. Instead they sold in bulk for their own or 'proxy' mining operations and the ones that paid the highest ( ie not discounted) pricing for their equipment got shafted.

Please don't lump all ASIC manufacturers together with the scam companies.

As it has already been said but you seem to have ignored, several companies did a good job of not ripping off their customers and even giving them a chance to turn a profit.

Bitmain was a shining example. No preorders, no overpriced hardware, no BS, and just about everyone who ordered from them was able to turn a profit. (although Bitmain has degraded a bit recently)


It should be clarified that home mining is only no longer viable for people with uncompetitive electricity rates. Mining may still be viable if you pay less than $0.08/kwh or have free electricity(which many do).

I think people are being hard on the OP because of his hilarious plan to destroy bitcoin because he specifically can no longer profit from mining.

It's the sort of response you'd expect to hear from an elementary schooler that didn't get his way so he has to ruin the fun for everyone.

I already sold my stash.  I think it is good for bitcoin to collapse to $200.  Then, I will jump in to buy more of it.  So it is not a bad idea to sell now and jump in later.  

I did not have a plan to destroy the bitcoin economy, but my plan was to give bitcoin a "correction".  People think bitcoin should be $10,000 or $1000 but right now the support is at the $300s.  I think it should collapse to $200.

@ gallery2000 we just touched 400usd .  I see us above 500 by Nov 1st

  The correction happened we dropped to 298 a week or so ago and now back up for a few months.

 Unless  the moron asic builder decide to expand the data centers again.

 They just need to keep their 'dick in their pants'   [figure of speech]  for about 60 days and put out very little hashpower.

 then they can have a  lot of 'quality pussy' [figure of speech]

I am like you, hoping that those asic manufacturers stop expanding their data centers.  

I disagree about 'quality pussy'.  I have not seen a not 'quality pussy'.  All pussies are made of quality (even made in China).  That's a given.

We can only hope they will not expand they datacenters.

That's  what left for us, hope...
We will not see 200dollars/bitcoin anymore... and the more expensive bitcoin will get the more they will farm based on this!
And difficulty will still go up and up and up an up

The problem is they aren't saving up and going for that quality pussy.  They don't want to wait for it, so they're running around like a bunch of drunken sailors tagging every two dollar whore they can find.

I know it is like watching an accident in slow motion.  You see it all unfold in front of you but you can't a thing about it. I wish  they would just relax a bit and enjoy the ride. We could tag along and pick up decent crumbs or sloppy seconds.

There's nothing wrong with ASIC manufacturer's pocketing a larger share of the money than those they sell miners to.

The problem arises when they defraud investors with intentional deceit.

Most companies make money off of the initial opportunity granted by having investment capital from home miner's orders. Then they pocket an additional portion of the investor's expected return, causing most to go into the red.

No other consumer industry would be able to do this.
It's a fact that will tarnish cryptocurrencies indefinitely, regardless of how widely accepted they become.

Pretty much agree with this.  In a way they are like the bankers from the old school banking and stock exchange  system of wealth.

Should be fun to see what happens when the two square off to slice up the pie so to speak.   lets see if old money men simply absorb them.

This is a good question.  Strictly speaking, Discus Fish, with a nearly 30% market share of bitcoins mined (if I read the pie chart correctly) is a monopoly that could be in theory broken up by the government where the majority of its bitcoin mining hardware resides.  I know, I know, it's not going to happen nor should it happen (I am against antitrust in general) but this is exactly how Standard Oil, by J.D. Rockefeller, was broken up by the USA in the turn of the last century.

What happens when one company controls 100% of the Bitcoins mined?  Let's say it happens?  One of two things:  either they can wreck the entire system by messing with the blockchain (unlikely unless they are crazy), or, 'raise prices' by controlling the supply of bitcoins, the same way DeBeers controls (or tries to, and they've done a pretty good job the last few decades or more) the price of diamonds, to extract monopoly profits.  This is Econ101, not controversial.  Some would say monopoly profits will encourage other mining pools to enter, and that's the way it works in theory, but sometimes, due to technological constraints (let's say Discus Fish invents some super-duper ASIC that's 1M times better than everybody else's and threatens to flood the market if any other big miner enters the market and this is known to everybody, etc etc), other firms cannot enter quickly enough, so either the monopolist will get monopoly profits for a long time (DeBeers, maybe OPEC), or, the government steps in and busts them up.

TonyT

  here is a story on power supply

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=824712.0

if this gets into the correct hands for bitcoin mining power could be 1 cent  per k-watt which would  be the same as having a .1watt per gh asic chip

Sailor here, come on man.

In my life I have only one pussy and I am worshipping it.  It is the goddess of love and goddess of life.

In order to perpetuate the monopoly, Discus Fish would have to hard-code the 1M times better ASIC miner to only mine on Discus Fish's pool.  Software can be cracked.  :D

It is well known that ASIC manufacturers can produce ASICs for next to nothing. If they are not able to sell their machines at retail prices I don't see any reason why they would not use their existing inventory to mine instead of just letting it "sit" in their warehouse.

That seems mostly irrelevant. It's about delivering as advertised.

If ASIC manufacturers want to mine with every ASIC they create that's well and good. They shouldn't sell consumers faulty, out of date, intentionally worthless hardware.

What did you think, they were going to sell you hundred dollar bills for 75 bucks? 

ASIC retailers should deliver fully functional products to their declared specifications within the time-frame allotted. No more, No less.

The fact that that's even mildly contested is insane.

It isn't contested at all.  Every time one of these comes up I read the terms and they invariably state quite clearly that they are not offering any guarantee of delivery by a particular date.  Obviously I haven't read every single one so it is possible there are exceptions, but in general, they always use forward looking statements backed up with no guarantee.  It would be like going out with a girl who tells you up front that you aren't exclusive, and then getting pissed when she bangs some other dude because you chose to ignore what was told to you.  Whats more, we are how many years into this now and these things STILL sell out every single time.  At a certain point people have to take a little personal responsibility in the situation.  To further my previous analogy, by like the 30th other dude she bangs, at some point we're just going to assume you like your girl banging other dudes. 
At this point in the game unless you are brand new to bitcoin you know flat out that you aren't going to get your merch until it is all used up so if you buy anyway, whos fault is that?

Bravo! I couldn't have said it better myself. It's the old "battered wife" syndrome. "Maybe if I go back again, this time he won't beat me."

You sound really butt hurt. Next time don't buy ASICs and just buy bitcoin. It is called counter-party risk.

I do lump all the asic manufacturers together because they have all done exactly what I said. Your heroes, Asicminer, are one of the worst offenders because they mine themselves and by proxy whilst telling their customers that they want everyone to have a chance to participate in mining. What they actually want is the chumps to keep financing their mining activities by believing that they will make some money from their purchase. Also look at former all-round-good-guys KNC, the minute they said they would mine for themselves then purchasers should have walked away.

There's NEVER been one asic manufacturers who has said "thanks for your order, we will do everything we can to keep you as a customer and help you to make money. We'll make sure you get more hashing power when you need it, not when we decide we'll give you some more".

You do realize that Asicminer was publicly funded and built their farm using those funds right?


Completely wrong. Asicminer, Bitfury, Bitmain, Spondoolies-tech, Rockminer, and BTCGarden all operate without BS, have great customer service, and adequately compensate customers for any delays/underperformance.

The difference as I see it is that I own part of AM via shares.  Please show me where I can buy shares of any other manufacturer.



Successfully or not, I believe Spondoolies Tech is trying to manage this approach.

Well, that's exactly what they are doing, KnC, amhash, etc.
I actually understand the OP (thread initiator) position. I think that current policies of mining expansion will lead to bitcoin Depression very soon.

Good practice by those mentioned, but irrelevant in the long run if tens of thousands of customers lose money on these transactions.

They are going for profit, that's it, you would do the same thing in they place.