Bitcoin Forum

I'm trying to assess the current state of bitcoin units, the other way around.

yes, so many people choose the Satoshi.

few people do this vote

All units working OK just because of this many peoples not voting here because they want to use all and now not cut in any unit

µBTC / uBTC is idiotic.

i like bits.

(and a satoshi is still a satoshi  ;) )

Voted. I prefer BTC and Satoshi.

 :D
Voting is about what you hate, not about what you prefer!  ;)

Bits are retarded.

Bitcoins and satoshis.

Why call .1btc different than what it is?!

Wow the result for 'bit' is most interesting ;D.

I know, I voted for Bits, which I don't want to use, was only commenting on what I prefer. Pls, don't assume things you don't know.

I don't suppose anything, Your post made only me laugh. I didn't see the point between Voted and I bythewhile.
Nevertheless, Thank You for making me laugh!  ;)

I only unit i understand so far is mbtc but people are using bits a lot these days.

I would prefer that we stick to mbtc, btc and satoshi. They are simple and don't overcomplicate things when we move onto bits and ubits.

I can't vote, but I agree BTC and Satoshi. Keep it simple.

I would not want to use these 3 equally:  µBTC / uBTC, bit, mBTC (was there even an option for people to vote all of those at the same time?)

I vote for BTC ;D

Hi guys,

I have NO PROBLEM using ANY of the mentioned BTC units,
so if you DO NOT wanna use yours feel free to send it to me  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

PS: WTF is with posts like this?

If you have trouble understanding what YOU have at hand use this:

var currentPrice:Number = x; // where x means the return value of your exchange API*

var coinsToSell:Number = o; // where o means what you want to sell

function whatsThePrice(x:Number, o:Number):Number{

    // the price is:
   var result:Number;
  
   result = o*x;
  
   return result;  

}

If the above is too hard to understand then:
If you wanna sell 0.23555489BTC and the price now is 480$ let's say you get:   0.23555489 * 480 = $113.066 (rounded)

So what you are asking (IF NOT ALREADY) is very easily implemented in any software.

*the exchange value depends on your exchange.

EDIT: In fact the above function will work with: C, C++, Java, JS, AS and some others that I am probably not aware of.

What else do you want?

Do note that some languages prefer the term "double", bu tthe principle is the same :)

EDIT 2: Sorry, I was just asked in PM how does my code work, so I thought I post here just in case anyone else wants to know.

You are basically asking the function to perform the calculation for you:

example: I have 3 BTC for sale and want a good price

heres how it goes (simple):
I first receive the current going price from my exchange - my case Bitstamp - for example reasons lets say I got a return of $383.
If that is the price I want I send a call function with: 

var whatIgetNow:Number = whatsThePrice(3, 383); // normally BOTH numbers would have been replaced by variables according to schedule)

the return value would be: $1149     -   3*383 = 1149

That is the simple use for it, however you could expand it to a bot if you wanted to....

example:

if(x==500){

//sell with profit

}else{
//HODL!!!!

}

I could easily say DO NOT sell if under this much by going:

if(x<250){

//HODL!

}else{

//it's all good for trading IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!!!!

}

There is much more you can do with it, my question is that WHY do people spend more time whining about things than getting things done?

PS: To all the "gurus" out there, this is just an example of VERY simple ways of getting things done  :-*
So, yeah I know, no need for you to say anything  ;)

Obviously the SI system is idiotic. That's why nobody in the world uses it.

This is what I use too.  No need for intermediate units, people can easily understand BTC enough and once you spend some time around BTC satoshi makes a lot of sense too.  The other units just seem to confuse things and seem to often be used in a questionable way.

 µBTC  and uBTC are ankward.

Bitcoin and mbtc is only what i use. Learned mbtc while counting the chips in online poker games lol they all talk in mbtc there.

The system is in need of a unit between the BTC and satoshi. BTC are very big and will only get bigger. A satoshi is VERY small. Imagine if in the US fiat currency only had $400 bills and pennies, it would be cumbersome to use.

Imagine if US fiat was digital currency and there was no bills.  You wouldn't call 1 dollar a Dol and 100 dollars a Lar. You'd call them $1 and $100 :P

I will say I like Bits more than some of the other options.

No, they would call a Dollar a Dollar and a Cent a Cent

With bitcoins current setup the value is going to be so high in 5-10 years only the wealthy will use the term "a bitcoin" when doing transactions. Dealing in only Satoshis for everything is not the best option for bitcoin because it is so small. Using a term for a millionth of a bitcoin allows us to drop 2 decimal places and make it more user friendly for the non tech savvy public. Satoshis will still be usefull in places like third world countries and tipping.

eg.
Used bike for sale 365 bits.
Used bike for sale 36500 satoshis.
Used bike for sale .00365000 bitcoin

Whatever we got to do to sell it to the public I guess :P I'm not complaining! If it polls well with the non-adaptors... fuck it, lets push it.

i want to see them all used!

https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fs24.postimg.org%2Figushgsyd%2FBitcoin_Fractional_Units.png&t=545&c=232-IE28bi2MzQ

Usage of “bits = 100 satoshis” still gives me headaches.

Most of the relevant (non-dice) gambling sites refer to chips/units as mbtc/btm (0.001btc).  I will always consider 0.001btc as 1btm because of Dragon's Tale and Seals With Clubs.  Btc, btm, and sat/ksat/satoshi are all we need

And it follows that 800 satoshis = 1 byte

How many satoshis is 1 kilobyte? 800000? Or 819200?

I don't ever want to use bits, I don't know why the use of it is being pushed so hard. I use btc, satoshi and mbtc, I don't see any reason to use any other units apart from these.

Me too. I want to use BTC, mBTC, uBTC, period. I may also use satoshi due to honorific reasons. Fuck the bits!

Voted for the first option
Suprisingly a very high level of support against it
Although not sure if Mbtc and Ubtc were different measurements lol.

uBTC is way worse than others for me
mBTC sounds good, bits is ok, satoshi also ok

i'm ok with using all of those but for smaller amounts i preffer using satoshies instead of uBTC. it is easier for me but for bigger amounts i prefer BTC like 0.002 BTC

1000 sat = 1k sat = 1 ksat

Problem solved. :P

There is absolutely no need for 100-satoshi-sized units. 1000-satoshi-sized units (i.e. "ksat") are much more intuitive anyway.

 ???
If you are willing to use a 1 kSat you may keep using 10 uBTC. Have you heard about Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) lately?
 ;)

So the underlying question is "what unit should we switch to now", correct?  
I'm a Bit hater for a few reasons...

1 - "Bits" would almost certainly be confused with "Bitcoins", because, why wouldn't they be?

2 - The name "Bit" + "Coin" was not chosen arbitrarily. Removing the "Coin" and terming them "Bits" seems to refer only to Binary Digits (and adds another layer of confusion... we should say 1 Bytecoin = .125 Bitcoins and really mess with 'em, huh?)

3 - At the current exchange rate, it seems an unnecessary leap to begin using the micro- metric (~ a fraction of a penny).

If we drop "Coin" for less syllables, "centibit" or "millibit" are much better candidates.
"I just bought 100 millibits for 40 bucks!" ... "I just bought 100,000 bits for 40 bucks!" is a little excessive.

Just my 2 centibits

The meaning of "k" is already understood by common people:

http://btc1k.com

The SI prefix "µ" (micro) in contrast, is a very nerdy, technical expression. It implies being something very small (as in "microscope"), and thus is subconsciously disliked by many people.

As a matter of fact, the human brain prefers to use multiples (like "k"), rather than fractions (like "µ").





I never used µBTC for precisely that reason, thus "keep using" is wrong wording anyway.

Occam's razor: "What is easier: Teaching the meaning of "µ" to common people, or using "k" instead, which is already understood by them?"

'bit' is the most retarded choice as a name ever for anything.

It already has an established and extremely popular use with strong name recognition FOR SOMETHING ELSE. There is no chance it will ever work as a trademark or brand signifying anything else than whatever it already means in peoples heads.

We need some name that improves our brand recognition whenever we say the name and not diminishes our brand which is going to happen if we ever choose not to say the word bitcoin in any sentence where there is even half a chance to say the word bitcoin.

Maybe US is a place where people have not heard about SI prefixes for fractions. However where I come from the 'm' is in very common usage among ordinary people for small length measurements as in millimetres and small weight measurements as milligrams for example when buying medicine. I happen to look at a package of 600mg ibuprofen pills on my table.

The most unfortunate thing for 'µ' is that it cannot be easily be written with an ordinary keyboard and 'µ' is one that is not that well known.

This issue is not about SI or not SI. It's about using fractions or multiples.
People just don't want to own small fractions of something, they subconsciously hate it.

It's very frustrating to deal with "one millionth of something", it's much more comforting to use "thousands of something". Therefore "ksat" is much better than "µBTC".


That's another reason to prefer "ksat" over "µBTC". :-*

---

"hundred milli bits"

Five syllables.

"hundred thousand bits"

Five syllables.

"ten million sats"

Four syllables. ;)

Yes, voting against multiple units is possible.

I also agree just keep satoshi and BTC we need not more units these both enough for all

I really hate satoshi, it makes absolutely no sense at all. btc is okay but what's with satoshi !!!

The more we talk on this topic, the more confusion there is. As long as the unit is understood by both parties, so what issue there is?

Even better yet: I bought 10 mil sats - 3 syllables

Like it's been said, people don't like fractions, and are impressed with large numbers, this incorporates both.

In my country, mBTC is used very frequently. I think this will be the de factor unit of BTC for a long time.

I wouldn't use µBTC / uBTC , bit. There is no need to use these units as these can be replaced by satoshi.

BTC, mBTC and satoshi are good and easy to use. Any amount less than mBTC should be called satoshi.

Satoshi is the reason why Bitcoin exists. :-*




I'm trying to list reasons why people dislike specific units:

Some people feel some kind of frustration because they have to pay hundreds of fiat money and get only zero-point-something in their bitcoin wallet. This is an issue for them.

Other people are afraid that a unit they use (bitcoin) could be confused with a very very similiar sounding unit that was introduced to solve that issue (bit). This is an issue, too.

Can we find a solution that makes both groups happy? I think so.

One thing i was thinking if we all changed to using "bits" instead of bitcoin etc.. well part of the reason the price bubbles have so much hype and bring in new investment and community members is because of price.

We want to get bitcoin out of the lab, so to speak. It needs to be much easier to use, and the question you should be asking, is not what do you want, but what makes better sense for the (hopefully) billions of future adopters, many of whom may be far less numerate than the average bitcoiner, and much more comfortable with a conventional 1,000.00 currency format.

mbtc, <--- good for middle of ground sends
satashi <==== good for the broke folks
BTC <--- good for the rich folks...

all the others can easily be converted to these and much easier imo

uBTC? bit is easier...

satoshis

I vote for BTC BTC ;D

vote for uBTC :'(

satoshi is not good.

I was surprised by the µBTC hate (my keyboard has a µ symbol). I guess I learned something from this poll.

One term I hate more than 'bits' is "nanocoins", used to refer to the base-unit in BitcoinJS (apparently it pre-dated the wide acceptance of the satoshi term).
1 satoshi= 10 nBTC!

Do you think 1,000.00 is easier to understand than 100,000 for the next billion adopters?

There's nBTC Too?

I learned something new today :)

vote for satoshi

You seem to be missing the point (pun intended). 1,000.00 illustrates the format - comma separated and accurate to 2 decimal places, like dollars and cents. It's not just some random large number.

+1

We need the XXXX.00 format.  That way someday 1 satoshi will psychological gravitate towards 0.01 USD.  Yes, this is a real thing.  At that point 1 Bitcoin will be worth 1 mill USD. 

i don't want to use mbtc

I like BTC, satoshi is my second favor

i laugh at these crap polls.

as it is rather funny that there are over a dozen polls where people are trying very effort they can to denounce bits, yet if you check many many websites people are beginning to buy domains with bits in the name and not mbtc or ubtc..

take for instance
would you rather see a logo that says 'bitpay' or 'mbitpay'
would you rather see a logo that says 'bitstamp' or 'mbitstamp'
would you rather see a logo that says 'bitme' or 'mbitme'

i can name many many more websites with bit in the name but cant see any with ubit or mbit... thus its easy to see which direction merchants are choosing, as oppose to 'users' dramatic cries

top-down (micro/milli) only really works for a couple decimals. but the bottom up(satoshi/bits) works for smaller fractions of a bitcoin, which is more future proofing.

the whole point is not to say that when people start using bits measures, that 'bitcoin' wont be used ever again. the point is that instead of saying microbitcoins, we give names to multiples of satoshi's and they all work side by side

take for instance dollars.
no one uses deci dollars for the name of 10cents.

infact they used 'disme' at first with was latin and then shortened to dime later on for more of a relaxed and easier way to say it. so eventually mbit and ubit will be shortened out also to something 'common man' will use.

so instead of the confusion of the different between u and m.. purely for future proofs sake the measurement will be the metric of ubit.. (100 sat) and the common name will (by already viewing the use of) be bits.

me too. If you are a newbie, you have to look for what it meant. Bits is great.

I dunno but I love to use btc

Yes, but in those examples, "bit" is short for one Bitcoin, not a microBitcoin.


The short forms for MilliBitcoins and MicroBitcoins are largely solved, but have little traction:

• 1 mBTC (0.001BTC) is one Mill (or thousandth). This term is used for calculating property tax. Also used to refer to 1/1000^th of an inch.
  
• 1 µBTC (0.001mBTC) is one Mike (short for micro (metric prefix for one millionth)). (Common male name, sometimes used in the military as slang for minutes)

I am fairly sure the part 'bit' in these names has not been chosen because it signifies 100 satoshis, but rather because it is the 3 first letters of the word bitcoin and also indication of some kind of cute humbleness. So it is a bit ( pun intended ) disingenious to count this as a vote for anything. If anything it is yet another indication of the biggest problem with 'bit' as how it has a million meanings in peoples heads and about 999999 of those are stronger than the meaning for 100 satoshis and it is an uphill battle all the way if anybody tries to change that situation.

I am not at all against the concept of taking 100 satoshis as an important unit. However the word 'bit' just sucks royally in this specific meaning and these polls are an indication that instead of trying to force a square peg into a round hole maybe somebody could come up with a better name.

I believe the unit mBTC is in much heavier use and more importantly in spontanious use. It is however quite impossible trying to count exacly how much more heavier use for example because googling for the word 'bit' does not give you any useful links or linkcounts at all. By the way that is another indication that choosing the word 'bit' for anything significant is a poor one in this age when we should think about search engine behaviour as an quite important argument as well.

Try for example google for 'USD/bit' and tell me what you can find when starting from google as the exchange ratio between USD and 'bit's. That should be an easy task if 'bit' is in such wide use as you say in popular bitcoin exchanges. Let's see how easy you find that job and whether you think choosing the word 'bit' seems sensible choise of as a keyword to you even after you have tried this googling task.  

Nice pun. ;)

But I don't miss the (decimal) point. And the Japanese population (126 million people) don't miss it either. The Yen is doing fine without any decimal places / decimal point.


Anyhow, neither of you two answered my question: Do you think introducing a decimal point makes the currency any easier to use (compared to plain integers)?
Because ease of use should be our goal here, isn't it?




You totally missed the point of this poll: There was no intention to denounce anything.

The basic idea was to ask a separate yes/no question for each unit, as opposed to just asking for the favourite option as all previous polls did.
Obviously, not everyone's favourite option can be realised, so looking for secondary choices can help reach consensus.

The only reason why the poll was negatively worded ("...do you NOT want..."), was to incentivise participants to agree with as many units as possible by asking them to actively check the box for every unit they dislike.
This should make it easier to find consensus.



100% agreed.

A bottom-up system like sat/ksat/Msat is much better than the top-down approach BTC/mBTC/µBTC.
As said above, multiples are more intuitive than fractions.



I don't see a need to have a nickname for 100 sats.

Do we have a nickname for 100 dollars? No, or at least, not that popular.
Do we have a nickname for 1000 dollars? Yes, 1000 dollars = 1 grand.

So when giving nicknames to multiples of satoshi, it appears to me that it is a better fit to go for 1000 sats, rather than 100 sats, for example:

1000 dollars = 1 grand
1000 satoshis = 1 grantoshi

The Japanese analogy is a good one, because it reminds me of when WW2 was over, a few Japanese refused to believe they had lost and kept on fighting, just as you are clutching at your belief, (good on you), but it is clear from signals in the wider community that you are fighting for a lost cause. That's not to say you can't call it whatever you like, just don't think the majority will be there with you.

On usability, if you want to argue that, put up some use cases to demonstrate your point.

I like satoshi.

The purpose of language is to be understood. I need to use vocabulary that is accepted by the largest percentage of the community.

Given the poll results, "bit" is okay with ~55%, "satoshi" is okay with ~75%. To get these numbers you just compare the total number of participants with how many of them did not click the respective checkbox.

If this trend ever reverses, then I will immediately switch to "bit". But right now I see no reason to do so.



My use case is explaining Bitcoin to newbies:

With satoshis, all I need to explain is that 100 million satoshis = 1 bitcoin.

With bits, I need to explain that...

• ...100 satoshis = 1 bit, and...
• ...1 million bits = 1 bitcoin.

I very much care about reducing complexity from my website, so every bit matters.

oops I diverged again into the bigger picture, not specific to your website/faucet, I take it all back.

Satoshis and Bitcoins for me.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2l0u3g/just_joined_the_21_million_club_and_it_feels_good/clqeqxn

::)

That guy says "I thought 1 bit = 1 satoshi. I guess i stand corrected" so you could equally argue satoshis were the problem.

Not at all.  "satoshi" is a much better established term than "bit" in this context.  When people want to refer to an amount of bitcoin in a nomenclature thread they almost invariably use "BTC" or "satoshis" for simplicity/clarity.  People argue about the name to give "0.000 001 BTC" or "100 satoshis".  Also, notice the order used here: "1 bit = 1 satoshi", not "1 satoshi = 1 bit".

"satoshi" was not pushed in the way that "bit" was.  The first suggestion that "satoshi" might refer to 0.000 000 01 BTC was made over 3 years ago (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3311.msg46648#msg46648) and slowly and naturally became adopted because it was a useful term which resonated with those that would use it.  There were no leagues of "satoshis" threads where people denounced the term, came up with various alternatives.  There was no crowd of SI proponents claiming "10 nans" to be superior.

A few months later (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=13495.msg188816#msg188816), the first suggestion that the term "Bit" might represent 1 µBTC was made.  In this case, the term naturally died out, only to be resurrected by an evangelical Reddit thread and an advertising campaign launched by a small number of (either linguistically foolish or intentionally destructive) people.  Rather than the gradual emergence of a new useful term brought about by need, we've been treated to a year of flamewars, causing many to avoid the 100-satoshi unit altogether.

"satoshi" is to "bits" as free-market is to central planning or evolution is to intelligent design.  Arguing a peership between the two is just laughable.

Except that satoshis are the smallest denomination and thus will unavoidably appear in the system.

One of the two units (bit/satoshi) is causing confusion, but we can't remove satoshi because the smallest denomination needs to have a name; "bit", on the other hand, is superfluous.


Edit: Oops, I didn't notice teukon's reply. It's much better.

That's not the issue. We're not debating over which is more established. We're looking forward and debating what may be.


Yes of course they do, but bitcoin is not at issue, and in most contexts neither is satoshi.


Yes that's right, very well spotted. Let's make that obvious point no. 1.


You might even notice I was the one who quoted it.


Now you're just being silly. Have you ever actually looked at the bits proposal? Do you know what you are talking about?


Sorry but this is all just quasi-religious, irrational nonsense. If you can't come up with a use case just say so.

I am using satoshi and not mbtc.

Everything should go except this format: 0.000001 and it should be called zero point zero zero zero zero zero one.

This example use case (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2l0u3g/just_joined_the_21_million_club_and_it_feels_good/clqeqxn) illustrated how it is difficult to establish "bit" because it is already established that small amounts of bitcoin are satoshis. Looking forward, this means that establishing "bit" will always be an up-hill battle because satoshi isn't magically going to go away.


Yes, "bit" is what makes the issues.


You quoted it, but you didn't even notice that it implies that the speaker is already familiar with satoshis and confused by "bits".


A quick glance (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=813167.msg9247185#msg9247185) at teukon's recent posts reveals that you are talking bullshit.


The weaknesses of "bits" won't go away by ignoring them.


Remember how this discussion started? You were making the initial claim that "bits" is easier to use:


To which I responded:


Causing you to ask for use cases:


Because you were making the initial claim, the burden of proof (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof) is on you!

Well done, you've so well managed to justify irrational quasi-religious nonsense with your own illogical twists that in the process you've dug yourself in so deep you're locked in a psychotic delusion.

Any further attempt at rational discourse here is simply a waste of time.

Ad-hominem attacks (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem) aren't valid reasoning, either.

What's your point, actually? :o