Bitcoin Forum

Because you can now you know...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=753252.msg11415969#msg11415969

Why?  More like How?  I understand how shorting works in theory, but  has anybody actually tried to short BTC?  I'm having a hard time buying it, much less shorting it.  Any actual experiences appreciated.  Do the exchanges charge interest while you hold the short for example?

This would have been my follow-up question...

???

I've shorted Bitcoin a few times.
I have developed a few patterns over the course of the past two years that have been working.

Not 100 percent but semi-decent accuracy.
When shorting, I'm talking 12-48 hours max.

The idea just scares me. Especially so close to 'the bottom'

Here are 2 exchanges you can use to short Bitcoin-

https://www.bitfinex.com/
https://icbit.se/

I recommend all bears and Bitcoin haters to short the hell out of bitcoin while the rest of us buy.
Remember, Bitcoin is going to 0  ;) so be very aggressive with your shorts.

I've shorted Bitcoin a few times too... 8)

why want to short BTC?

Typically day traders who assume they have foresight into short term market direction. Most Bitcoin haters aren't confident enough in their convictions to short Bitcoin no matter how much I beg them. Many alt supporters who hate PoW are still heavily invested in BTC as well. They are just diversifying their portfolio with a risky investment (BTC) with an insanely risky investment(alt).

As long as exchange launched the short business, everyone was in short

But I never went to these exchanges

I would say that trading altcoins is very risky as they tend to be very illiquid and can likely very easily be manipulated. I would also consider a loan bet for altcoins in general to be a short bet against bitcoin.

Do they allow naked shorts?  I bet not.  Meaning you must put up collateral of some sort, and they will give a margin call if the collateral drops below a certain margin?  Otherwise the exchanges are fools.

There are some good opertunities in alts in order to hedge against BTC going down.  I'm really excited about HUC franky :P

When BTC goes down most alts do not go up at all. It would be logic but it doesn't work like that. The prime example is LTC, it usually goes up and down with btc.
It's better to sit in fiat and buyback lower, but I think it's time for btc to go up a lot next few months.

You put up bitcoins as collateral. If the price falls below the margin you lose your bitcoins. Bitfinex has been around for several years. I have loaned bitcoins to people shorting, it is one of the few ways to make interest on your bitcoins with very little risk.

I bought some LTC some time, end of December. The value doubled overnight. I sold them all. The value of LTC is now very low, and I don't think it's going back up to it's previous levels any time soon. That would be a long term investment which I'm not willing to take right now.

Dicers all like HUC :D  What's up with that?

I would say that this setup would involve you having a EV positive return, however there is still a chance of you losing money if the price moves too quickly against the parties that are borrowing your bitcoin too quickly, as you could potentially lose a good amount of the amount borrowed.

bitshares allows you to bet against btc by exchanging your btc for bitusd, bit gold or bityuan,  other assets against btc.

you can sell bitbtc short.

Of course at this time,  with the usd on a strong bull run , the best bet would be to buy bitusd and sell bitbtc short.

All this is possible on bitshares platform.  the only thing is if you are short btc and the price rises, you may be forced to cover your short with bts.   bts = bitshares.

I considered the bitusd thing. But it felt so unBitcoin :-[

I would argue that it is a good long term bet to short most alt coins as they seem to tend to always eventually go down

Those are buying with margins in other words betting on the price movement with money you don't own with just a small sum as collateral. Same like forex which allows you to win a lot or either lose a lot. There are also quite a number of chinese exchangers allowing the same services on buying with margin

I've shorted BTC in the past using BTc-e's metatrader platform. 

I don't like to short it, that makes me unsafe.

I have made a lot of money shorting bitcoin many times but have covered always around 300... There are too many companies and retail investors ready to buy many coins below 300 so dips below there will continue to get harder and harder. That's why this dip we only got to 315. I have stopped shorting this month for one simple reason.......

EVERYONE IS TRYING TO SHORT WHICH WILL LEAD TO A HUGE BOUNCE WHEN EVERYONE TRIES TO COVER THEIR SHORT!

Right now short interest is at 62% but the rate of it's rise is slowing down... Also a few weeks ago they literally ran out of bitcoin to lend out to shorters.
Basically for people who don't get how this works, I will explain it is very simple.
Someone lends bitcoin to me at a certain interest rate. I used that borrowed bitcoin with my collateral(more bitcoin) and instead of shorting a few coins I could now short approx 10. I then make a contract with the exchange to BUY BACK those ten bitcoin in the future(hopefully at a lower cost so I profit)
This is where the magic happens... If the price doesn't go down but it goes up instead then I must buy back those ten bitcoin at a loss, at a higher price, and if I wait too long(maybe a $50-100 increase in btc price) they will literally take all your collateral and just place a buy order for the 10 bitcoin right there. This is what is happening everyday now. Literally every order(long or short) will eventually be a buy order for the market! This is how the stock market had many repeated bubbles like we will have here for bitcoin!

More shorters will cover everyday and every rise more shorters will assume this is a ATH and short more but they will have to cover another day. More buyers entering the market while more miners hold for larger gains. Everyday there will be huge jumps up and the snowball effect will now become a moon launch. I really don't think we have built the rocket to the moon yet with the amount of buyer currently in the market but who knows maybe we will soon.

All I know is all I used to do was short bitcoin. I did it again and again every pop, every good news that came out even paypal... but now I am on the long side. I keep seeing us bounce off the 300 level and I see higher lows while the double bottom has been confirmed. I am now 110% long using my margin for a long position now.
Bye bye bears. See you around the 400 level maybe  :-*

Epic trader. I salute you, sir

Yea shorting bad. No go to moon

I stopped to short Bitcoin for a while, until things settle down.

I don't wanna have an premature heart attack

Even if you get lucky with a successful short there are only small gains to be had at present. Plus, the odds are you will get unlucky shorting in a rising market.

I am shorting too, no hard attack yet :)

True... I mean I see this rally running out of steam and people are getting too greedy too fast. I always play it safe so I just closed all my long positions at 383 on bitf
Watching closely for a momentum change to maybe open short positions real soon

I guess hindsight is one of those things you really ought to have ahead of time.  :-[

That's a very old topic - is there a specific reason for bumping it again?

There are definitely more than 2 places to short Bitcoin. At least there's a third exchange: OKCoin + a few discount brokers (Plus500, Xcfd,....) are offering short positions on Bitcoin price.

Nostalgia? Caution: I hope nobody is still doin' this!

Shorting is too risky, you make more gains holding long term at the end of the day, or trading for great up and coming projects like Maidsafe. Im aiming at minimum doubling my total BTC stack with in the next months.

While shorting is risky, there is also potential for massive gains, nothing to be laughed at.

not really true about the massive gain, with all those tiny slippages, unless you move something like 1k-10k bitcoin....

Some people certainly made a lot of money in short positions in 2014.  Of course the gains on a long position in a rally are higher, but you could still make a decent amount of money - especially with leverage.

big guys shorted bitcoin at around $300 and others will or might do it now. that's the difference. they know exactly when to short and buy the coins back at 20% discount.

Using futures at Okcoin.com (https://www.okcoin.com/?invid=2033157) people can utilize up to 20x leverage.  It also means people can trade with smaller accounts.  And it means you're able to double up on a 5% move.  Some people are wrong but others having been immensely profitable.

Ive never used leverage. If you use leverage, does it mean that if the price goes down, you can be on debt? I don't like that, thats why i always avoided it, i dont want to owe money to some broker.

It's impossible to go in debt because its practically impossible for them to collect on debt.

There's only something called forced liquidations.  Bad thing about that is you lose your position.

That's why using 10x with a part of your balance may be better suited sometimes.

Leverage can be used to gamble and lose money but it can also be used as a tool to augment your trading balance when you have a bit more confidence in a market direction.

And on okcoin you can short and long which means you can profit from the price going either up or down.

Why would anyone go long Bitcoin? Shorting is where the money is beeing made. The last 18 month were a shorters dream and there is no trend reversal in sight. Only fools believe they become rich with owning bitcoin.

im shorting bitcoin whenever I see a huge PR potential lol.

but outside from that, im holding and buying while it drops. if you have large sums of coin, youre always going to be buying back in at a cheaper price at the same time while youre selling them.

For a supposed early adopter that is a bizarre statement.

Sounds like your shorters dream has recently become a nightmare.

shorting with a variations of 5-6 usd at best, isn't like a dream at all, unless they are leveraging massively(borrowed from others shorters), there is no gain to be made already if take into account the fees...

What on earth are you talking about?

I haven't been day trading for that long, lots of holding.  But it clearly was a shorters dream.

From 1200-200 that's a 85% drop.  And you can use 3x leverage on Bitfinex.  Up to 20x leverage on okcoin.  And if you were really good you'd have kept increasing your position each time and you'd have really snowballed.

And there are a few different ways of shorting.  You can short by borrowing bitcoins through swaps.  You are not borrowing from shorters.  You are borrowing from Bitcoin holders for a small interest payment.

And you can also short through futures.  You enter a contract with another person.  That other person wants to long.  And there have been a lot of bullish people who have longed all the way down.

And I don't see how you can say that there was no gains to be made after accounting for fees.

Yes there was money to be made. Well played to those who did. Good luck on the way back up.

if people don't see it being reflected in the price the anwer is no. gbtc price is way over priced and doesn't represent current value.

why people still talk about 1200-200 drop, that a thing of the past ,could you guys get over it already, please? it does not matter anymore, and it's obvious that many had done a huge profit, my post was about today price, not 2 years ago value...

borrowing money now from longer? i don't think it still working, now with that despair phase no one is willing to risk anymore

what about the price raise so much and you can't re-pay your debt with the long-guy or bullish, or whatever you want to call it?

Okay I didn't know you were talking about today.  But shorting is still viable today as always.  It's not like you'll be guaranteed profits by shorting or longing but with good entry points there is money to be made.

Also one thing you mention is limited rewards.  This is partially true but that's because we are currently in a consolidation pattern.  BBands are squeezing.  The same could be said about a limited upside.  So your argument about a limited downside could also be used the other way.

So now you use this word like despair phase.  Just because you looked at a picture of the bubble chart doesn't mean you understand anything.  And what does "borrowing money now from longer? " mean???

When you're shorting Bitcoin you make money from price drops.

I can't believe you're a Hero member and posting in speculation but you don't understand trading.

it was a typo there i mean raise not drop, anyway what happen if you can't pay your debt with the bullish guy?

"borrowing money from longer" mean exactly that you borrewed money from a bull guy like you said in the post above...

and about despair phase...it is known that we are in a despair phase, you don't need to look at any chart

in the end i'm not arguing that there aren't money to be made in the end, it just more difficult and more risky, the risky is above the gain, especially if you are not really into trading

Bitfinex lending rates are getting lower (already at 0.01%): http://bfxdata.com/swaphistory/btc.php

OKCoin rates just dropped to 0.02% p. day .

He'll be in tears once he misses the boat after a failed shorting prediction (which statistically you always end up making a failed prediction). Then by the time he realizes it's not going down again, it will be to late (on his mind he has the wrong impression bitcoin is already over lol).

Every dollar you have that is not invested in bitcoin and kept in USD, is in effect a short against bitcoin.

Sure.  But its also a 1x short.

Also some people trade to accumulate USD.  So they just wait for trade opportunities.

Secondly, you can keep a USD balance and receive incredible interest from it.  That's 30% yearly with quite a low risk.

And it can be quite risky to get full exposure into Bitcoin.

Well if you get too much into debt you'll be force liquidated.

And you borrow Bitcoins from the Bullish guy.  The bullish guy is really bullish so the daily interest is less than 0.02% interest which is dirt cheap.

And with futures there is no swap costs.  And for shorting usually you receive interest because futures are bullish and is usually above index.

I never said shorting isn't risky.  But longing can also be risky also. 

Or you might be able to wait and find a better long entry.  You don't always need to be in a position.

And you know what.

About the despair phase.  I don't really think we're in a despair phase right now.

Despair phase could have been the 166 phase.

Anyways, do you really think people are in despair right now?  I think there's actually a bit of Hopium with the Nasdaq news.

166 phase wasn't even a phase(actually some sites report 156 but whatever), i remember it lasted like few seconds or something, was more like a negative peak

yeah i agree we are leaving the despair phase with all those recent news, i sense a less bearish market now, the swings are also more strict

outside from daytrading and what not, you guys actually looking at the core flaw of bitcoin.

cause I see it from a transaction point of view, if its not used daily or whatever the coin will take 2 weeks in the longer term. you can talk about market fee, but whats fair for as a market fee? on finding your bitcoin..

you mean the market is now more choppy.

And hopium is not always good.

Sure but that peak is a lot better of a despair phase then the chop zone we are in now

yeah i find the market a bit more "tired", it is like if all the shorters don't want to short anymore, and they become bullish traders

a slowly reverse of the previous trend

Okay,  glass can be both half full and half empty.

Im holding long term and buying monthly, sometimes I buy some stuff with it of no importance, little auto gifts i like to make to myself to celebrate gains on my tradings.

Well sadly I wasn't short.  Shorters would've made 105% on a 20x short.

Coincidence? Or the deafening cosmic gong of predestination?

i'd never short bitcoin, way to risky

Everytime I shorted BTC, I lost my ass :-\

Liar! Everytime you go long BTC, you lost your ass :-\
http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/chart.png?width=940&m=bitstampUSD&SubmitButton=Draw&r=730&i=&c=0&s=&e=&Prev=&Next=&t=S&b=&a1=&m1=10&a2=&m2=25&x=0&i1=&i2=&i3=&i4=&v=1&cv=0&ps=0&l=0&p=0&

Ah, no... I was long starting in 2011.

Remember those prices then, clueless?

Oh, now you bought and hold since 2011, why not said it was 2009 right after sotoshi? Is this so called self-lying thing? pathetic.
Any way, are you ready to go back to 2011 and get nothing after 5 years bags holding? you might also lose that little first cost when this ponzi scheme ends 0$.  ;D

PolarPointt


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Re: Who here is shorting Bitcoin?
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im always shorting, until something good hits with bitcoin.

but at the same always buying back in if theres a $50 difference to get for cheaper. But, most of the time its also the same if theres a $30-40 increase as well. Average holding though for me is usually 2 weeks then a 1 lump sum sell off.

I hodl my fiat and never short :P

I short my bitcoin with alts. Worked out formidable.

This thread is in the wrong section though.