Bitcoin Forum

I usually do not like to rock the boat however I find it offensive that someone would post an ad to sell counterfeit gold bars here.
My opinion, and I feel compelled to state it, is that we should NOT tarnish the good name we wish for bitcoin to have by allowing such
posts which are very very illegal.


"The anti-counterfeiting laws passed by Congress begin rather tersely: “[w]however, with the intent to defraud, falsely makes, forges, counterfeits, or alters any obligation or other security of the United States, shall be fined…or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.” The terms “obligation or other security” include United States currency. (18 U.S.C.A. § 471.) In order for a bogus bill to be counterfeit, it must be similar enough to the authentic bill so as to confuse an ordinary, unsuspecting person.
In addition to prohibiting the counterfeiting of U.S. currency and other securities, the law also prohibits possessing tools (including modern digital technology) used in counterfeiting. Furthermore, it is illegal to buy, sell, exchange, transfer, receive or deliver counterfeit securities.
People can also alter goods, by copying the item's trademark (think "fake Gucci"). For information on counterfeiting merchandise and other goods, see Counterfeiting Trademarks and Other Intellectual Property.
Counterfeiting done outside the United States
The law’s reach is not confined within the nation’s borders. Counterfeiting that occurs outside of the United States is punished identically to counterfeiting that occurs inside the nation’s borders. Similarly, the foreign possession of tools for counterfeiting U.S. securities is illegal, as is foreign transacting in counterfeit U.S. securities. "

More info here:
http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/counterfeiting.htm

Original Post Here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=819417.0

I'm not picking fights here, I just feel that post is inappropriate and I'm sure the others here do not want to be involved with any such activity or be near it.

At a minimum, johnniewalker (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=72227) should be receiving negative trust ratings from people that object to his promoting fraud. He has crossed a line and is now a scammer in my book.

Give him a negative trust rating here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=72227

Report to moderator link doesn't work?

You may not like what he is doing and what image it gives to the BTC community.
However, the trust system should be used for reporting honest and dishonest dealings.
Just because he is selling counterfeit goods doesn't necessarily make him a scammer.
He isn't lying saying their real and selling fake goods. He's punliclaly stating that they're real.
I propose that if this really annoys you, perhaps speak to him about it and as you've done, post a thread.
However, playing with the trust system isn't really a solution.

I honestly don't think he is a scammer. Nowhere is he saying they are legit and should be sold as legit, so he is playing fairly.

How is he a scammer? Does the title not say counterfeit? You need to learn what the term scammer means...if he was selling them as real then yes a scammer. He is obviously telling you they are fake.   ::)

Edit: I will agree it is somewhat questionable though, but negative trust seems uncalled for imo.

He is colluding and conspiring with scammers to rip you off. That makes him a scammer.

He may not be doing the actual scamming himself but he certainly plays a significant role. Would you feel the same if he were selling counterfeit casascius coins or $100 bills and you got stuck with them?

Maybe the items need to be marked clearly that they are for educational purposes only. I had assumed that is what johnniewalker was selling these as tools to help others identify forgeries. Particularly, since I remember him posting complaints on other threads against people selling fake Morgan dollars.

To be this is pretty black and white.  The law states that selling or marketing such products is illegal.  I for one do not want to be affiliated with any forum that allows that type of posting.
He may very well be not a scammer, and yes I agree he stated clearly that they are not real.... that does not make it legal.  It is STILL a forgery and as he tends to sell other people coins and
precious metals from what I can see, that immediately is a cause for alarm.  I will remove my trust rating and perhaps chalk it up to a mistake on his part as I do not see that he has done anything
other than a poorly chosen posting....  You do not have to agree with me, however if this forum is permitting such posts, it sets a standard of tolerance for others to begin as well.

He may be the nicest guy in the world and I'm not starting fights, however with posts like that in and around here, you have to take pause.

I have spoken my mind on it, I will allow the moderators to do what they think is right, after all it's their forum and I'm only a member of it.

Most people here know I am not a fan of Johnniewalker, but in this instance he isn't doing anything illegal or immoral. You might not like it but it is not illegal. You misinterpreted the statute you cited. It clearly says "securities", this is a paper instrument, AKA bearer bonds, or federal reserve notes. A gold bar is not a security. If it were a gold COIN, that might be a gray area, but its not mimicking official state coinage. He is not misrepresenting the product, therefore he is operating 100% within the law.

There are perfectly legitimate reasons to want to own fake gold bars. I think the key is people need to learn how to test their gold, because this issue isn't going to go away regardless of what happens here.

Legitimate fake coins have the word "COPY" on them so that there is no confusion about their authenticity. These gold bars do not because they are intended to be used to scam people. The bars also have counterfeit assay packaging. They are not meant to be educational tools.

Legal or not, what he is doing is wrong.

This.
If he were claiming them to be real, sure...but he's not.

Selling fake precious metals is a real problem for secondary markets like the one on this forum. These could easily be used by someone else if there is no permanent marking on the packaging. Let's not let Bitcointalk become another Silk Road with pages and pages of counterfeits for sale.

It's time to take these kind of listings off Bitcointalk.

If he is openly advertising them as counterfeit/replicas then I don't think it should be classified as a scam. If he was trying to sell the gold bars as authentic bars then it would be a scam. He also isn't trying to sell them for a high price. It may be immoral to some, but definitely not a scam or illegal in anyway.

Yep, the keyword you used is COIN. This is not a COIN, ie state issued coinage, which has such legal protections. This is a replica gold bar, being sold as a replica gold bar. Yes people might use it for fraud but you can say the same thing about Bitcoin, it doesn't make it illegal in its own right just to posses. If we are going to start assigning moral exceptions to rules here where does it end? Who defines what is right or wrong? That is a bad precedent to begin. The fact is getting rid of these types of sales in threads WONT STOP PEOPLE FROM SELLING FAKE METALS. They are easily had legally in many venues. You are saying we must start assigning moral exceptions to posts putting all of our speech at risk just to stop one user from doing something you wont stop others from doing anyway even if you tried. The only solution to this problem is for people to test their metals. I speak as a long time metal trader on this forum as well.

See this is a common sense conclusion... we all know they are around....
BTW don't these things have serial numbers?

They should definitely remove counterfeit bullion bars, they are illegal. They are only used to scam people and rip off trademarks. Reported the thread already but it was ignored by moderators. Same goes for johnniewalker selling knock off designer items, like Tiffany clips or Louis Vuitton wallets (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=843545.0). I have no sympathy for these multibillion dollar companies who produce these products but the end result is consumers getting fake goods. You're probably saving the sellers a lot of grief because the legal teams will catch up to them.

You are confusing a civil matter with a criminal matter. Copyright infringement is a whole other realm of law. They might be able to sue him, yes, but the forum would not share in liability as they were in no way part of the transaction.

No surprise the moderator would rather sweep this topic under the carpet as it were. The forums are still being incredibly irresponsible allowing these activities and it is dragging the whole place down. Very tempted to notify these companies myself, then we'll see if bitcointalk is accountable.

You are a moron.

Why, because I don't want people to resell counterfeit goods? Even if the first person to buy it knows, the next may not. You sound like an asshole.

You really think you are going to prevent the sale of counterfeit goods by restricting it from the forum? Furthermore attempting to put the forum under legal liability  ::)
I may very well be an asshole, but like I said, you are a moron.

Please don't sweep this under the rug. No comments from forum mods and I see JW has spammed his own thread by reposting it.

He says up front they're fake, I don't see the problem. Punish him for being honest?

I remember the old stance on this kind of issues is that if it's not posted with the intention to defraud someone else (victimless) and does not include illegal drugs/weapons/etc, it is considered acceptable to post here. JW's been upfront about the fake issue, so I don't think that's an issue here.

its interesting how he thinks fake pamp is ok but fake morgans are not? where is the line on fakes acceptable? i see alibab selling the full range of perth mint lunars, should i also sell them here?

link to the post where he has something to say about fake morgans. I see no difference between selling fake morgans and fake pamp, fake is fake.

The difference is a Pamp bar is not legal tender, a Morgan is. This makes any fakes legally counterfeit currency and illegal to posses or sell in the USA.

so thats where we draw the line, fake non legal tender is ok but government backed currency is not?

i think morgans fit into the fake ok category as they are no longer legally accepted currency.

This is a helpful distinction. I tend to think of fake precious metals as different from fake consumer goods, but maybe that is more of my own worldview than some universally accepted principle.

as long as its labelled fake, many of these are not.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/1858-Liberty-Head-Eagle-Ancient-Gold_848518757.html

Bought one of these same bars for $20 in black market long time ago, sold it for $1000 on Craigslist couple weeks back  ;D

Going to ask Jonnie if I can buy all of his bars~!

Time to make $$$$$$!!!!!!  :) ;) :D ;D :o 8) :P :-X :-*

Nice to know you can't be trusted.

Bro thats the game not my prob if they stupid do your research!! Only the best sruvive in this harsh world we live in and i will survive! Simply a trader! someone has to lose rightttt?! look at stock market! ups and downs people lose lots more!

sent jonnie a message i wait for him eagerly!!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Jonnie even agrees noing my intentions!!!!

Selling fake bars under correct pretenses is not illegal. If Johnniewalker tells you they are fake, its not illegal (since they are not Government issue coins like gold eagles, gold maples, etc)

@above you better be careful selling those fakes on craigslist as real, there are some really hyperinflated penalties that were designed to stop scammy jewelers. 20+ years you can be incarcerated for trying to sell fake bullion as fake. Frankly you are better off dealing drugs, less strict penalties. (Not that I advocate you do either)

*edit*
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=405641

A newbie bumping an old thread? Hope this is a legit conversation but johnniewalker has been known for dealing dodgily for sometime now, haven't seen him around very much actually so maybe his practices finally caught up to him or he gave up, there have been plenty of complaints about him.

Just saw this. Had already PM'd user. If this guy is even serious obviously I won't be selling anything to him. Contrary to what some of you may believe this is not what I offer these bars for.

What are you talking about?

Since you are here, can you explain briefly why fake Morgans are off limits and PAMP Suisse bars are okay? You don't owe an explanation to anyone, but I am curious why you would sell these and still be against others selling fake Morgans on Bitcointalk.

As Tecshare has explained 30 times in this thread, there are anti counterfeiting acts to prevent people from counterfeiting Currency 1 oz Silver/gold Eagles for example are coins created by the US mint with a face value in USD on them possession of counterfeit currency is a crime, however Pamp bars are not created by any government mint, and have no legal tender face value on them, therefore they do not fall under currency counterfeiting laws. Morgan Silver Dollars are legal tender in the US, fake Morgans are the same as fake $1 Bills. When I ordered more metal testing chemicals off of Amazon, it came with fake bullion to help newbies to metal testing learn to spot the difference in chemical colors when dealing with real vs fake bullion. As long as you aren't trying to pass fake bullion off as real. Legitimate companies offer them for a variety of reason.

If you know the case of Norfed, the owner got busted for counterfeiting because he put $ values on the rounds he made, however private mints that make bullion aren't shut down because they don't put any face value on their bullion. The difference between a coin and a round, is a coin is legal tender, bullion comes in rounds/bars/ingots

This.


And the huge fact that the only fake Morgans I have seen on here were offered as real. I have a collection of fake coins myself-I find them almost as fun to collect as authentic coins...the range in quality in terms of stamp, die, cast, material, etc. is fascinating. Although, there are very few people I would trust to sell fake coins to. These bars are a different story-I think about everybody on my Christmas list got one.  

I have been following this thread. The reason I asked this question is I thought hearing from johnniewalker himself would give this thread some closer on the topic.

People openly sell these bars on eBay for around £10, though it might be a legal grey area in reality. I suppose it could be trademark infringement or something with the branded bars.