Bitcoin Forum

As some of you know, I have been a staunch supporter of p2pool and have posted quite a few times regarding its advantages.  There used to be a great thread comparing p2pool to Eligius and BTCGuild.  Unfortunately, that thread has not been updated since August.  Recently, however, BAN has claimed they are the best paying pool, bar none.  Well, here's the proof that they are not.

Just for fun, I checked everything from the time BAN opened its doors (I used the announcement on BAN's website of 7/20/2014 as the start date) and compared that to my mining on p2pool for the same timeframe: 7/20/2014 until 11/26/2014.  I used http://retrocalc.net to figure out the expected earnings during this timeframe for my hash rate.  During this time, I have had S1s, SP10 and S3s mining.  I sold the S1s and the SP10 and the dates and data reflect them hashing until I unplugged them and shipped them out.  Here are the results:

Miners and dates, with hash rate and expected earnings
7/20 - 7/30, 2xS1 @ 400GH/s.  Expected: 0.1121BTC
7/20 - 11/26 1xS3 @ 440GH/s.  Expected: 1.0367BTC
7/20 - 11/26 1xS3 @ 420GH/s.  Expected: 0.9896BTC
7/20 - 8/1 1xSP10 @ 1.35TH/s.  Expected: 0.4509BTC
8/1 - 11/26 3xS3 @ 1.32TH/s.  Expected: 2.6692BTC
8/9 - 11/26 3xS3 @ 1.32TH/s.  Expected: 2.3875BTC

Expected total earnings from mining: 7.646BTC

Actual mined BTC: 8.61186032BTC

Difference: 0.96586032BTC

P2Pool has beaten expectations for the time period that BAN has been in existence by 12.6%.  In other words, p2pool has paid 112.63% of expected earnings.

Feel free to check the data.  Here are the addresses to which I've mined:
1DeVLDoGvkbbB5n3dPvbpDbwiKGjYckCy9
1H2uK38p6XEpiqPkECVNpC3CSTWxVwPGBS
1FEztNFHXvx7pCDSVy4xJ9JGxFGFSDKNXg
1BST6cuZ2ZhpsFaq3eY1xwFKzEDLfAWgqF
1DLcDRVncY7Zasd91oBw12XrQfLPohtNZP
1FWTtUBVk9XdkrfWkvS3uBN6CRkGgaMrQv

You can validate this against the blockchain, as well as see the payouts by going to http://minefast.coincadence.com/miner.php and plugging each of those addresses.

Therefore, in the BAN thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=854368.0, the rankings should put p2pool as the number 1 paying pool.  By the way, I checked out the test as linked in that thread.  Nowhere does that test give actual proof of wallet addresses that can be verified as I have.  If I use the exact dates as that test, here are the numbers:

10/20 - 10/27 8xS3 @ 440GH/s. Expected: 0.3485BTC.  Actual: 0.60947698BTC.  Difference of 0.26097698BTC.

During the tested timeframe, p2pool beat expectations by 74.86%.  You're reading that right.  During the timeframe from 10/20 - 10/27, p2pool paid 174.86% of expected earnings, which absolutely destroys any other of the tested pools.  Once again, please feel free to validate my data.  I mined to 1DeVLDoGvkbbB5n3dPvbpDbwiKGjYckCy9, and the payouts can be easily verified.

So, in conclusion, p2pool has consistently beaten expectations and has beaten BAN's payouts, not only for the period they tested, but for the entirety of BAN's existence.

EDIT: semaster has updated his comparison thread of p2pool vs Eligius vs BTCGuild.  The thread is located here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=416933.0.  According to his tests, p2pool is in the lead paying:

p2pool - BTC16.9718 VS btcguild (PPLNS) - BTC16.0933 VS Eligius BTC15.8041

Using his 6 S1s @ 1080GH/s total, expected earnings for that timeframe (2/1 - 10/30) are: 18.0886BTC.  So, none of his tested pools have met expectations.  However, p2Pool still wins here at 93.83% of expectations.

The purpose of this thread is not to have a pissing contest between fans of p2pool and fans of BAN.  Rather, this thread is here to provide actual proof of numbers.  I have provided such, and conclusively shown that p2pool has beaten BAN's 110% payout for the entirety of BAN's existence as a pool.  I have also shown that p2pool decisively beat BAN during their own published test period - by nearly 65%.

Am I saying everyone should be mining on p2pool?  No, I'm not.  I'm also not stating that everyone should mine on BAN.  The choice is completely up to you.  All I've done here is to provide a p2pool to BAN comparison to help educate miners.  It is a comparison that refutes and disproves BAN's claims that they are the highest paying pool around.  This doesn't mean you shouldn't choose their pool.  In fact, I encourage every miner to make an educated and informed decision about where to point their miners.  Look at the numbers.  Look at the advantages/disadvantages of the choices available to you.  Make your decision based on factual data.

I've posted factual data here and backed up my claims with evidence that can clearly be checked and verified.  I invite any BAN member to join me and provide the same.

BAN shill/troll bait....... :D

JUST A CORRECTION TO THE ABOVE STATEMENT BAN IN FACT THE HIGHER PAYING POOL.....

now to explain it lol

take that eligius number that is a PPS pool like BAN but the difference is BAN is paying a bounus 10 percent on top of the normal 100 percent paying PPS now factor that in to the eligius numbers

10 percent of a not 100 percent paying PPS pool (due to the share shelving that eligus does) is 15.8041 x 0.1 = 1.58041

So when you add that 10 percent extra in BAN has paid out 17.38451 so cough cough you want to correct your statement re p2 and ban....   AS it in fact it the other way around...  AS BAN ALSO DOES NOT SHELF SHARES AS eligus does so that gap even higher when you factor in the shelf shares that eligus does

SOME simple math of the eligius PPS numbers show quite clear what the BAN payout would of been for the same time frame :)   PS they also merge mine now so that gap is further when the merge mining factored in again a PPS payout :)

Also something else that caught my eye is this part of the pool test results here So, none of his tested pools have met expectations.  However, p2Pool still wins here at 93.83% of expectations.  You can add another 6 percent to the number above of 17.38451 as BAN is paying out at 100 percent of a expected rigs earn day in and out before the 10 perecnt bonus is factored in a simple 24 hour test would show this clear as days that the BAN PPS is basically right on the money with a rig expected earn via the stats on the homepage and what any bitcoin calculator  splits out as the expected earn -/+ 1-2 percent to allow for a avg hash ...   <<<<   this comes back to the Eligius mod PPS system not paying a true 100 percent PPS due to the share shelving on their PPS so you would have to also look at the percent difference there as well of what the expected earn would of been on the rigs in question and also add that difference in to make up for the difference in the 2 different pps payouts ....   so that 6 percent could well be 10-15 percent have not sit there and done the numbers to find how much more BAN is paying vs eligius on the PPS front with out factoring in the bounus


NOW to the second lot of fud here :)

Miners and dates, with hash rate and expected earnings
7/20 - 7/30, 2xS1 @ 400GH/s.  Expected: 0.1121BTC
7/20 - 11/26 1xS3 @ 440GH/s.  Expected: 1.0367BTC
7/20 - 11/26 1xS3 @ 420GH/s.  Expected: 0.9896BTC
7/20 - 8/1 1xSP10 @ 1.35TH/s.  Expected: 0.4509BTC
8/1 - 11/26 3xS3 @ 1.32TH/s.  Expected: 2.6692BTC
8/9 - 11/26 3xS3 @ 1.32TH/s.  Expected: 2.3875BTC

Expected total earnings from mining: 7.646BTC

Actual mined BTC: 8.61186032BTC

Difference: 0.96586032BTC

P2Pool has beaten expectations for the time period that BAN has been in existence by 12.6%.  In other words, p2pool has paid 112.63% of expected earnings.    YOU MAY WANT TO SIT THERE AND ALSO FACTOR IN THE 10 percent bonus on the expected total earnings from mining: 7.646BTC THAT BAN PAYS which brings BAN UP TO 8.4106 btc and then factor in the NMC blocks they have hit in this time :)  YOU will more than likely find ban even out does P2 pool in this set of numbers as well :) or comes very close...  it NOT 12.6 percent as claimed above as the poster forgot to factor in the bonus payments on top of the PPS and the nmc blocks....   It more likely they are on par or BAN has it nose in front just earning wise on this second set of data....

Let's pick apart your completely nonsensical reply.

Sure would have been nice if you actually bothered explaining the completely false statement you just made.  But instead, you lead off with some rambling BS about Eligius.  What does Eligius have to do with anything here?  The answer is nothing.  Let's move on.

Oh look... you make ridiculous claims about the Eligius payout system, how BAN would have done better and your conclusion is that I need to revise my statement on p2pool.  You offer no proof of any of your claims, which I guess I can understand since the claims themselves have absolutely no basis in reality.

You're still on Eligius and trying to convince everyone that BAN is going to beat it by 10-15% but offer absolutely no proof.  Good luck.

No FUD here, just solid numbers that can be verified from the addresses I provided.  What's that?  Oh yeah, it's called proof.  Something you have completely neglected to provide.

Um... 12.63% beats 10% every time.  Not sure how you're convincing yourself otherwise.  NMC?  That's not included, but if you want to, I will.  I merge mine not only NMC, but also DVC, IXC, I0C, FSC.  Oh, p2pool also has a donation mechanism, whereby anyone can donate as much BTC as they want.  Should I also include that into this?  If we do, then my numbers only go up, since during the timeframe of the experiment, I mined blocks of all of the merged coins and received donations.

I didn't forget anything, and I never claimed p2pool beat BAN by 12.6%.  I clearly laid out what was mined on p2pool during specific timeframes.  The first was during the entirety of BAN's existence and the result was that p2pool paid 112.63% of expectations, which does in fact beat BAN's 110% of expectations - meaning p2pool beats BAN by 2.63%.  The second timeframe, which you completely ignored in your reply, p2pool paid 174.86% of expected earnings - meaning p2pool beat BAN by 64.86%.  I even showed numbers from a long running experiment in which p2pool has from February 1 until now beaten two highly recognized pools.

So, in conclusion, p2pool has beaten BAN's payouts for the entirety of BAN's existence.  I have provided absolutely irrefutable proof of my argument.  I invite anyone who has been mining on BAN for the same timeframes to please join this thread to show your numbers so we can all see a true and honest comparison between the pools.

LULZ....didn't take long for the dope BAN shill fire000 to bite did it?.......too easy :D :D :D

It's like he just jumped right in the boat without even bothering to put up a fight.  Too bad his response offered up absolutely nothing of value.

I really do wish someone who's been mining on BAN would come and share their experience and payouts so we can see just how they actually do.

Good luck on that wish.  Based on their thread(s), it's nothing but people who can't spell, perform basic arithmetic, or understand that -10% fee PPS is going to end in a lot of people getting fucked over if they're not already.

Whether or not a PPS model is sustainable at all, let alone paying at 110% is another subject entirely, and one that has been addressed in the BAN thread.  Those of us who actually do comprehend basic arithmetic certainly know the answer.  Unfortunately, as you stated, the majority of the replies in that thread, and indeed the one provided here by fire000 are basically gibberish - full of spelling mistakes, grammatical errors and incomplete or run-on sentences.  Of course, by pointing that out I'm quite sure somebody will come here and write about how spelling correctly is not necessary, or that proper sentence structure is not needed to convey their arguments.

I'm quite convinced that nobody will appear to provide evidence as I have, but rather that this thread will devolve into mindless ravings by a bunch of fanatics who lack the basic ability to have a rational debate.  Oh well.  Maybe I'll be surprised.  Tis the season, after all ;).

That's because 90% of BAN posts are from the same 2 or 3 people using a plethora of fake accounts. Pretty sure any real miners at BAN have been fucked over since day one, they just can't see it yet.

If you think their pool thread(s) are bad, you should have a read of the scam thread on them - you'll be in stitches:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=782765.0

s0br made a couple of remarks about your pool there eleuthria - before he completely vanished when it came down to the nitty gritty questions.... ;D

That fire000 shill really seems to have a very unhealthy & morbid fixation with you p2pool guys though - it's creepy, what happened there?

Outstanding.

eleuthria its hard to get "fucked over" when you can get paid hourly. I have enough bonus payments and then some (a S3 miner free)  that I could not get paid for a month and still not get screwed. I have been screwed over worst back when I mined at Slushes pool ( and no pool operatorer to be found when needed) and got screwed on a couple of payouts and that is why I moved to BTC Guild when I did.

edit: I just moved my miners off BAN as the payments and website are both down but will move them back once I know everything is ok.

So fucking true that I just had to quote it for anyone who might have missed it. I have yet to come across ONE user who miners at BAN who seems to understand that there is absolutely no way that a PPS pool that pays out at "110%" is absolutely doomed for failure. It is nothing but a scam. fire000, cyberpinoy, and the rest of the BAN crowd, assuming they all aren't the same person, all seem to be incapable of thinking logically, and they sure as hell don't know how to use their keyboards, either. I sometimes wonder if they have any idea just how discreditable they appear simply because of their inability to communicate properly using the English language.

Jesus, you are hard-headed, aren't you? What is it going to take for you to realize that a pool cannot sustain itself at 110% PPS! Should've stuck to BTCGuild or even slush. While I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, I'm beginning to wonder if you shouldn't be placed in the same category as fire000 and cyberpinoy. Although, I will say, you are much better with the keyboard than those two.

EDIT: OK, so your argument is, "hey, even if it turns out to be a scam, I already have received enough in payouts from BAN to offset me getting screwed". That's great for you and you only, what about innnocent miners who come across BAN and read posts like yours assuming they will have the same results? I guess you don't give a shit about those people, do you? so you are going to continue to promote a pool until they decide to freeze payouts, and that's cool with you as long as you know that its  the new, smaller miners who are getting fucked, and not you.

LOL  If s0br wants to rent your hash at a higher rate than you can mine with it or pay me a higher rate than other PPS pools why should I not mine at his pool if you rent to him as well?

Edit: also why do I care if the pool can sustain itself or not? I get my BTC sent every two hours... if the pool shuts down I have plenty of choices. But if this pool can kick GHash or DFish in the ass.. that much better.

Right to put this is simple question form for you lmao

IS eliguis NOT A modify PPS paying pool which shelves shares ????     YES THIS IS FACT

IS BAN NOT A TRUE PAYING PPS POOL ???   YES this is fact...

So of them 2 questions one have one that pays at 100 percent of a rig expected earn in BAN and the other does NOT

NOW TO SPELL THIS OUT LOL

NOW off your numbers above the test rigs expected earn was Using his 6 S1s @ 1080GH/s total, expected earnings for that timeframe (2/1 - 10/30) are: 18.0886B  <<<< this is the BAN payout as it is a 100 percent payout of expect earn day in and out...   AS PPS works to the expect earn....

SO to start with under ban in that test data you would of earned 18.0886 btc then factor in the 10 percent bonus they pay so that bring it up to 19.89746  so you would of earnt a full 2.5 btc more than the P2 pool :) that paid out p2pool - BTC16.9718....  IT not that hard to work out and your data just backs up BAN killing P2 pool for payouts

Again you may want to correct the false claim :)

Why don't you go look yourself? I assume you are used to being wrong by now, so you shouldn't be surprised to learn the answer is: NO. It is NOT a pure PPS pool.

Ok show me where ANYBODY has gotten scammed up to this point today! show me! To date the pool has paid everything they said they would.  you are the one that was spouting off how you rent your mining equipment to s0br at some ungodly rate and laughed about it. so how do you sleep at night raping miners renting equipment at a rate that they can not make a profit??  

EDIT: I guess if I didn't care I would have never posted this I just moved my miners off BAN as the payments and website are both down but will move them back once I know everything is ok.

Lmao you may want to look at the pools spec again as it is a fee free pool NOT a 10 percent fee pool :)  so does not know where you are getting this 10 percent fee from lmao...   

The miners who started mining early on will likely end up with a positive EV from mining on BAN as their early extra payments would make up for the lower/no payments that will eventually happen when they can no longer afford to continue paying 110% pps. It is the miners who start mining on BAN later on that will end up getting screwed as they will have a higher percentage of their total EV mining reward withheald when they eventually collapse and stop paying mining proceeds.

The only way a pool can payout 110% pps is if they are able to have an average luck of over 110%

s0br post over 3 months ago that it was a temporary thing to only build hash rate and when the pool got to 5PH it would most likely stop. I dont think anybody thinks it will last forever.

Lmao you may want to re read the post of mine again it stated in there it is a 10 percent of a not 100 percent paying PPS pool (due to the share shelving that eligus does)

so true on this side and the trolls are forgetting that side even when that 10 percent is taken out BAN still kills the other pools as it works to a expected rigs earn on the PPS not like the other pools which are all down from it as the long term data above shows quite clear as NONE have hit the expected earns where BAN would of been on par with it...   Even the other 2 true paying PPS POOLS that charge a fee in discus fish and the other one would of killed the PPNLS pools in that data....    AS discus fish is also a true paying PPS pool charging a 4 percent fee so that pool would also out done p2 pool BTC GUILD and elgiuis etc.....

And people wonder why discus grow so fast it cause people know how to use a calculator unlike the trolls in here and wanted a stop put to been ripped off by pool operators that use a pplns payout system or any of the other mod payouts eg the eliguis one etc....   

Your comparison makes no sense at all. The difference is that I have NO problem renting hashrate at an ungodly rate to s0br, because I know that he is a SCAMMER. So I can sleep at night knowing he is paying insane rental rates to me for my hashing power, although apparently he has wised up as he hasn't rented my hashpower for quite some time. That might explain why you aren't going to be receiving any payouts. Someone might have run out of BTC...(s0br). And BTW, I think there might have been 2 other people who have rented my equipment besides s0br, and each of them just once, and I have no problem sleeping at night because they chose to pay the insane rate that I use, that's up to them. What you are doing is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. You are helping to promote a pool that is an obvious scam, but as long as you know that you are at the "top of the pyramid", so to speak, you believe that you have nothing to lose. Well guess what? Other miners will be the ones who will be taking the losses.

How can you expect anyone to "read" the blathering, nonsensical bullshit that you refer to as your "post"? You cannot effectively communicate using the English language. In the future, write your posts in your native language, copy and paste them into Google translate (English, of course), and see if we can get a better result, mmmkay?

Here you go spreading lies and misconceptions yet again.  First you try to derail the thread by bringing Eligius into it - which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.  Now you're writing the same garbage about how BAN kills other pools and yet have not shown a single shred of evidence to prove your claims.  I have PROVEN that p2pool outperformed BAN since BAN began, and I have PROVEN that p2pool crushed BAN during the testing period shown in the "BAN is the best" thread.

Put your BTC where your mouth is.  Show me the evidence of how BAN is crushing p2pool.  You can't because such evidence doesn't exist.

Lmao any normal person that knows how to use a bitcoin calculator can work this out..   We do not need to post anything as on a TRUE PPS paying pool earnings match your rigs expected earnings minus the pool fee if there is one eg discus at 4 percent or in BAN case zero fees   DAY in and out

A true PPS paying pool is one of the most open and upfront paying methods that a pool operator can use as there NO way to hide things as joe bloggs has only got to do the above to work out their payouts and if it does not match (1-2 percent margin for hash)  you know the pool not paying right  

And to the second part of this post there was a 20 day test ran and the info is over in the BAN thread on this btc address http://minefast.coincadence.com/miner.php?id=14hK4PKZyisS5HECapW9jmmUfuMRt4D9o3   the rig was a 820 g rig ran from the 30th of oct to 22 nov you going to have to add the total payouts on that address by hand as it had been used in the past on p2 many moons ago ...   In that test BAN paid 50 percent higher than p2

Once again you provide no evidence at all to support your claim.  I have clearly shown that p2pool has out-performed BAN since BAN has been in existence.

This thread is not a philosophical discussion about the merits of one payout system vs another.  There are plenty of threads debating the benefits of each.  The thread is here to provide data on p2pool and to compare it to BAN since that data was not included in the BAN thread.  Furthermore, this thread exists to squelch the lies about how p2pool is somehow broken that you in particular have spread around the forum.

To recap: a miner who mined p2pool from 7/20 until 11/26 would have made 112.63% of expected earnings.  If you have done better, prove it.  Show the wallet and the payouts as I have.  I welcome it.

Heh, I was mining on BAN up until the middle of September.
I have 8 S3 Ants and when I pulled out of BAN I was down to around $12 / day and at the time the price for BTC was much higher than it is now.
After setting up a server, experimenting, testing and now running my own p2pool node for the last two months - with only the same 8 x S3 Ants - it's near the end of November and most days I'm making $25 - $30, some days nothing, some days $10, some days $40 and some days $50 or more - of course it depends on the frequency of finding blocks just the same as other pools.
P2pool kicks ass in comparison to the payouts from other pools, I'll never go back to mining in someone else's pool - whether BAN or any other.
Setting up one's own p2pool node is a great learning experience and provides a measure of control - even if it is only psychological.
It's unfortunate if others cannot / will not believe that it's a better payout, but that's their loss I guess - hopefully more will come over.

Yeah reviving a half year long thread. But I am not spamming or saying useless things.

I don't know ban and never mined there but the instant you don't control your node, it's no different than not controlling your private keys. Mining in a pool you have no control is no different than leaving fiat in the bank instead of at home. You are trusting them. It's goddamn easy for pools to steal your hashrate and luck would be to blame. Not to mention use it for things such as destroying coins/51% attack.
Seems like p2pool is the only 100% trustless pool (please correct me if I am wrong!). It's sad it has less than 0.5% of the total bitcoin network hashrate.

Oh this thread... LOL.  Brings back some memories :)

P2Pool is definitely a good way to go - especially if you're running your own node, which is how it is intended to be done.