Bitcoin Forum

The logic:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=884154.msg9753233#msg9753233

not many people actually think that bitcoin will defeat FIAT.

FIAT is nearly dead all by itself, leaving people to voluntarily move over to bitcoin. without bitcoin even having to try defeating fiat

lol this is the first thing Franky has said that I agree with in a long time :-)

Indeed.
Let's keep this simple. The one on the right is FIAT.

http://cdn02.cdn.justjared.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/walking-comic/walking-dead-cast-reveals-inside-scoop-at-comic-con-34.jpg

I have to read your statement twice to realize that the word in your title is "unlikely" rather than the opposite. And it seem that you have a very unique view on how regulations can actually work to curtail and limit bitcoin usage. My question is, is there a way to actually ban the internet?

it is obviously impossible that bitcoin defeats fiat,but I think that is not the objective of bitcoin, I think they are both done to live together

it is logical because bitcoin is not done for everybody, there are some people that doesn't even know to run a computer,so they could not use bitcoin

Bitcoin is not going to defete fiat anytime in the nea future.
How many years have we been hearing from the banks now that soon we will be living in a cashless socity, living only on there jacked up fees plastic cards.
But the are other ways, the banks have been laying the ground work on this cashless system for years now and they will probably come close to suceeding , some cash will always be needed.
I have seen a log of good work with things like bitcoin debit cards, one interesting company bitsim also looks good.
If people want cashless cards then just offer that with bitcoin.

Dont need to compete with fiat cash, only fake money, high fee plastic cards.

That's how I see it, fiat is the Titanic steaming full ahead into the icefield, bitcoin is the lifeboat.

why are you posting, you filthy scammer?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=820203

bitcoin wont defeat anything. its just code. it just sits there doing whatit should, .. and that is being a secure ledger system.
it hold no power to arrest anyone, it has no powers to shut down business or government.. its just code.. but the one thing is for sure, its alot better than fiat and as such peoples freedoms and choices will be where the defeat happens. people will move to bitcoin

I don't understand why one defeating the other is necessary. I think bitcoin and fiat can and will co-exist. Which will be used by majority in future? remains to be seen.

I personally don't think that bitcoin will defeat FIAT . at least not for the next couple of years.
It's all about what it came "first" . just an example "Bitcoin" is the first cryptoo currency => the most used. and not the other Altcoins it's the same on this case for Fiat money , Fiat money exist for thousands of years.

Fact is Fiat has a long history of dying after a certain amount of years. Next fact Bitcoin will never disappear. For that reason alone gives Bitcoin a big and long future to succeed. Take over maybe not but be a serious digital form of wealth, definetly. You can't kill Bitcoin you can kill fiat or more accurately fiat eventually kills itself.

Fiat hasn't existed for thousands of years. Your confusing fiat with money. Money has been around for a long time, almost always in the form of Gold. Currency backed by Gold isn't fiat. Plus history shows true fiats have a shelf life. Can fiats exist in a continous boom and bust cycle? Sure. But with Digital currencies on the horizon it's a bit like choosing to heat your house with oil lamps than electricity.

Defeating fiat is like a whack-a-mole game. Fiat has lost many times in various countries over centuries, but it's still here. When fiat finally caves under the burden of its own issues, overdebtedness of the economy, etc., there will be a reset to another form of fiat, crypto currencies can gain a bigger market share as people lose confidence in fiat, but defeating it completely is unlikely, even if Bitcoin didn't have the flaws it has, it's still unlikely.


The Chinese tried unbacked paper currency = fiat many centuries ago, long before Europeans did. They pretty much invented this concept. It could be just a thousand years, not thousands, still it's a widely known concept to them.

Fiat is not very much adopted every where, its convenient, for everyone which is why maybe it will never be replaced.
 But for bitcoin to be successful, it doesn't have to replace FIAT.

Fiat will win.

Bitcoin has millions.

Fiat has trillions and can print faster than 25 every 10 minutes.

And you can't wallpaper your house with bitcoins.

Fiat wins.

With Fiat, i can use its paper to wipe my ass

With bitcoin, i can pay OP to lick the shit of my ass.

Who wins? you decide.

Give it a bit of time, the Btc market cap will gain it's trust.

Bitcoin will defeat fiat in all the areas fiat can't compete. Given its simplicity, there are lots of these.

The OP's argument is that regulation will kill Bitcoin.
I disagree for three reasons.

1.  In the long run, regulation is irrelevant.

Which sounds like a better idea?  Money issued and controlled by
central authorities, or money issued by an open source protocol,
and controlled by everyone?

I know which one I prefer.  Good ideas eventually prevail,
and a protocol cannot be stopped.

2.  There's two sides to the regulation patchwork effect.
Sure, there is some dissonance, but there is also competition,
and local and national governments not wanting to lose out.

3. The regulatory response to Bitcoin has generally been
amazingly positive so far, so even in the short term,
I don't see it slowing down Bitcoin much, if at all.
And some regulation may even be positive.

I agree. I can't see btc completely replacing fiat. Not that anyone serious thought so anyway.

That's more realistic.

There we go. I agree with his opinion.


This is like 'Anonymint' all over again.

A strong counter point is that Bitcoin can be sometimes anonymous for the diligent  (i.e. not practical for most people, mostly for criminals), while some governments may view Bitcoin as less of a threat than a more overtly anonymous cryptocurrency.

Unlike using cash, employing anonymity in Bitcoin will very likely become synonymous with being a criminal.

The government could likely remove that impractical, rogue anonymity option in the future by regulating the miners and forcing them to only include transactions that come from an online wallet provider which does KYC. They would be wise not to do this until the masses have become accustomed to thinking of Bitcoin as something in their Paypal or Coinbase account, and those who use non-KYC wallets will have likely become the much smaller minority.

Government can co-exist with anonymity because people willingly give their consent to reveal and participate in an ordered society rather than complete chaos. The distinction is the people are in control and accede their consent. If you take away this balance-of-power (remove all escape routes, black markets, and frontiers), what you end up with is totalitarianism and megadeath (every single damn time, there is nothing ambiguous or dubious).

I believe that black swan is the fact that the economy is shifting from brick & mortar to virtual work and services. Into the dark we go, so that We The People grant our consent to be governed.

Thanks for writing what I would have. Correct.

Also gold when it was a legal tender coin currency was always a fiat (http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/11/22/gold-can-still-be-fiat/), because of Gresham's Law and the power inherent with seigniorage.

They don't overlap

Fiat money is forced into circulation by pumping to the bank system and loan out to government to drive various projects, then handed out as state employee's salary. The purpose of fiat money is to spend it as quick as possible since they drop in value over time

Bitcoin is entering circulation by volunteer, typically after a long time of saving and appreciation, and start to trickle in to the economy at a small percentage per year, and once it reaches the merchant/buyer, it will most likely be stored again for another several years. The purpose of bitcoin is to spend as slow as possible since they increase in value over time

The next megacrash will settle it; 2008 Episode 2; playing in the real world near you very soon  ;)

No fool. The dollar will become stronger because it is the most liquid and the rest of the world is short dollars given massive borrowings in dollars due to QE.

your the fool..

you do realise america is in debt.. you do realise america owes this debt to china right., (look into the bonds!!! china owns USA) and with china joining brics. it will be the brics that becomes dominent, not dollar..

the amount of brics based banks vs the amount of amero based banks is easy enough to see..

come on even if we look at the population numbers
amero: 0.481billion (canada 0.035bill, america 0.322bill, mexico 0.124bill)
brics: 3.058 billion (brazil 0.202bill, russia 0.142bill, india 1.267bill, china 1.394bill, s'africa 0.053bill)

think of the land mass and property ownership. brics wins again
think about the import vs export trades. brics wins again

america wont stand a chance. and bitcoin will have opportunities once people start seeing the shift in power and growth of the brics and the weakening of the dollar.

that WAS the mindset of 2009-2012.. not 2014+

OP you seem to be worried about bitcoin/anonimity/government tooooooo much..

watch the first 15 minutes of this video
http://bravenewcoin.com/news/andreas-antonopoulos-at-bitcoinsouth-money-as-a-content-type/

and allow andreas to explain to you why worrying about government rules or attempts to control are futile. and the multiple ways to hide where the funds came from in the world and went to in the world.

no law can stop bitcoin, it can only scare people (well sheeple that dont quite get bitcoin, and fear governments)

The fiat system will die by itself sooner or later (depends only on the ratio of idiots in our society). It's fundamentally flawed and kept running purely by violence = unsustainable.

It is Anonymint. :P

How can you be sure?  :D

Regulation of BTC exchanges is very important for the success of BTC.

He's had to make new accounts because the Anonymint account was made inaccessible on purpose.

I don't think Bitcoin has to defeat fiat, it's truly an alternative means to pay, store and transact money.

It can work side by side with fiat, like a Western Union/Paypal/Internet Gold hybrid of sorts.

It's when fiat meets it's timely demise in the near future, where Crypto will reign supreme over fiat.

'Tis the early days, fellow BTC brethren.

Did you REALLY just start a new threat linking to a post from another thread, without so much as adding anything to it?

The Euro and the USD is like two people jumping from a skyscraper, at the moment USD is ahead, before that EUR was ahead, but in the end all fiat currencies will approximate their inner value, which is zero.

If people would not be threatened with violence by the government, that would have happened a long time ago. Do you really believe Germans would use the Euro if they could use anything? Such as a gold backed currency issued by Swiss banks, maybe?

The USD is not strong, the others are even weaker. The ECB has indicated that they will print EURO even more radically than the USA - and there is not much else to turn to. AUD is too small, JPY is even worse than EUR, CHF is bound to the EUR

USD IS STRONG DUE TO LACK OF ALTERNATIVES!

He said so in another thread.

I don't think the stock market crash of 2008 had so much to do with Bitcoin's success, but rather the overall economic crisis that included a banking crisis. People generally did not trust banks and needed an alternative place to store their money

Because the moderator moved that thread from the Bitcoin Discussion to Politics and Society subforum. And I felt the discussion was more pertinent to Bitcoin.

Like you said all fiat systems always comes to an end. How long do you think people will keep doing this now they know they have an alternatives? By the way your confusing money with legal tender. Even the Chinese in history understood Gold etc needed to back paper money.

Let's say the Dollar and various fiats died next week, all the people unless they were holding assets like Gold or tangible assets and Bitcoin owners are safe and even prosper. It wouldn't take a genius to know what the image of abitcoin would be after such an event. Bitcoin won't die it will grow like a virus till it infects the whole world. The future if sound money wisely is part of it will be based on digital currencies backed also by governments and Gold.

I requested the AnonyMint be disabled (I didn't think about just scrambling my password, which is what I have done since to disable TheFascistMind). I was hoping to stop wasting time posting in forums, so I could get more real work done, also because my health had declined so much and being on the internet was probably the wrong activity to improve my health.

I felt lately I could be more focused in my posts, and there were a few very important things I wanted to say.

I also I really don't want to sway people with a reputation, but rather with my logic. I had always promised not to use my AnonyMint reputation to promote an altcoin.

The value of fiat never goes to zero when the country still has a strong military, police, and can sell its bonds.

It only goes to zero when there is a total collapse of government and everyone flees, e.g. Wiemar Germany or Zimbabwe.

So sorry you are talking the usual goldbug delusional nonsense that has no example in history.

We are headed into deflation and the entire world is short the dollar with widespread dollar loans. The dollar will come much stronger as the rest of the world collapses. The USA will then collapse because the strong dollar will strangle its economy.

We will then go into war and chaos. Eventually the powers-that-be will reset the global monetary system, but never will they have given up power.

Gold will go very high after 2016 when the USA starts to collapse. But it will not go to $50,000 and the dollar will not go to 0.

And to cash your gold back into the fiat system will require you provide identification and you will be heavily taxed (maybe even 90%).

Sorry there is no escape from the move towards 666, unless perhaps we actually created anonymity the way I have been advocating.

Edit: gold has not bottomed yet. Expect sub-$1000 with a natural target in the $800s but $630 is not impossible. Ditto Bitcoin has not bottomed yet. Why? The dollar will come much stronger in 2015. And the delusional goldbugs (who also buy Bitcoin) have to first become dejected before we can bottom.

Supplanting in a semantic delusion, because non-anonymous Bitcoin will actually be joining the fiat system and be part of the global monetary reset with the powers-that-be still in control of you and I.

Don't you even bother to check history before spouting delusion?

Gold rarely holds its value when there is total collapse. Rather it is food that becomes valuable and the gold gets buried because it can't be spent. Rice was money for 600 years in Japan. Food was money during the Dark Age in Europe, not gold.

Gold only has value during brief periods of government failure, and where the gold can be moved into a new fiat asset that is functioning. If fiat fails totally, then gold also fails. Study history!

You fucking mischievous liar. Do not quote me, then edit what I wrote to totally change the meaning of what I wrote.


I had written that using Bitcoin in a KYC (you are not anonymous) compliant provider such as Coinbase or Paypal, will be sanctioned by the powers-that-be and you will not be labeled a criminal.

Andreas correctly explains that Bitcoin implements the End-to-End Principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-to-end_principle) of the internet, but he fails to articulate (at least in the first 7 minutes and I don't have time to listen to him ramble on, he doesn't go directly to the point) that is what he is explaining because apparently he doesn't quite understand the internet as well as I do or perhaps he is just dumbing down his explanation because I see he has a degree in Computer Science and experience in networking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Antonopoulos). What I can see is that his focus has been more on networking and network security (including hardware too), whereas my experience has been on making million user commercial software and I have always been as well a theoretical thinker. So I approach this from a more broad perspective and apparently more experience in scaling than he has. He is obviously no technical slouch and I suspect we might have interesting conversations someday. I suspect I have a much more broad understanding of political economics and macro economics than he does. In short, he appears to me to be somewhat pigeon-holed.

And end-to-end is why Cryptonote ring signatures are best for on chain anonymity. And we still need an improved high-latency Tor for IP anonymity to transmit the transaction to the network.

It doesn't matter if you use a pigeon to deliver your transaction to the network to hide your IP address, Bitcoin's block chain is traceable and linkable because it doesn't have ring signatures.

And the lack of anonymity for the miners remains the choke hold point weakness in Bitcoin. Miners can be regulated and forced to reject transactions that don't attach KYC identity.

Sorry I already had this debate with you and we will not repeat it again. If you persist in repeating the debate which I already embarrassed you in the other thread, I will close the thread. Because you are wasting my scarce time.

We already established that you are a technical neophyte compared to me. I have 3 decades of serious programming experience and accomplishments, and you have been in the retail industry.

Bitcoin was the techie version of delusional goldbug fever.

Due to the QE there is a lot of stupid money floating around in the world looking for a delusion to be wasted on. That is why we saw bubbles flame out in real estate, commodities, gold, and then Bitcoin.

Once the deflation sets in earnestly 2016 onwards, the delusional are going to lose their money either from wrong investments or confiscation because they were deluded about the power of government.

Then finally the smart money will be only standing at the end game 2024 ish.

That means most of you readers are the dumb money and so you will lose your undeserved wealth.

Dude, that's why nobody is listening, you claim tech experience then 95% of your waffle is economics. I would trust a retail pro to have a firmer grasp on economics.

Seems to me you are quite the fuckwit. Firstly do you want me to post charts of countries right now where the currency is being devalued and Gold is making a moon shoot?

Gold means you weather the storm and come out the other end with your assets intact ie money, the fiat in your pocket however in a total currency collapse is toilet paper and will never recover and no one said having food supplies isn't also important though most modern collapse in recent history like in Argentina people weren't starving in the street, they just lost the wealth they had accumulated over for some a lifetime.  You misunderstand price for value ie wealth.  Its a common misunderstandings among children and old ladies so don't take it too hard.

Check your history? Why the fuck would I do that based on the Assclownery you think is knowledge.


PS Bitcoin can't be debased like fiat yooooooou fuuuuuuuuucking flid.

Go ahead and copy the idiot silverbugs who I told a year in advance in a published article (http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article23786.html) that silver would peak at $48 in Spring 2011, they didn't listen and they held all the way down to below $17.

Or the idiot Bitcoin twads, who I warned in public in this forum when Bitcoin was $1000 that it would drop to $350 as a first bottom. Lately I warned it would bottom below $200.

Your IQ is too low to even comprehend what I wrote. I specifically stated that gold goes very high against total failure of government such as Wiemar Germany or Zimbabwe, but it doesn't go to infinity against governments which still have the power to supply a military and sell their sovereign bonds. The USA is no where near that type of insolvency. The people are not going to run away from all their possessions in the USA and forsake the government entirely. Sorry fucktwad.

In a total collapse, if you can't run somewhere with your gold that isn't collapsed then the gold is worthless, because only food is money in a total collapse. Gold had value in Wiemar and Zimbabwe, because it could be exchanged externally where there were non-collapsed economies.

STUDY HISTORY YOU IDIOT!! You don't have a fucking clue.

And Bitcoin can surely be debased. Simply make loans denominated in Bitcoin using fractional reserves. Did you not realize that this is what the private decentralized banks did in the 1800s with gold?I guess you are totally ignorant of Gresham's Law.

Just shut up. You obviously don't have two rocks to rub together inside of that cranium you call a brain.

Dumbshit.

I see your asshole is writing your posts. Dumbshit.

Edit: I am closing the thread. Seems it is impossible to have an intelligent discussion on this forum that is any way objective and critical of Bitcoin. The delusional creeps attack with their usual ignorance.