Bitcoin Forum

The Rouble has fallen sharply against the dollar recently
but why this didn't call a strong buy in Bitcoin and bring the price up while the gold and oil are also going down?

Remember Bitcoin has crashed from $1,000+ down to $330. If you're exiting Rubles after a 50%+ fall, last thing you want to be in is a currency that might fall another 70%.

Ditto for Gold and Silver both are in severe bear markets.

In addition, Russians wanting to get into other options can't get into Bitcoin as Putin doesn't like it. They will eventually start getting into it once the initial panic is finished.

both can be taken away from you. And good luck storing them or transferring them with you

Gotta love goldbugs once in a while.

bitcoin is still mostly "user-unfriendly", so even the vast majority of those getting financially raped by their governments (argentina, Russia, soon USA) aren't comfortable divesting from fiat.

It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, especially when that old dog was indoctrinated to think a certain way about money from its formative years.

MAYBE SOME RUSSIANS ARE SELLING THEIR BITCOINS TO HAVE DOLLARS, PUT THESE DOLLARS UNDER THEIR MATRASSES IN ORDER TO SURVIVE THIS WINTER , WHEN NOTHING WILL BE SOLD IN ROUBLE ANYMORE.

READ ABOUT APPLE STOP SELLING IN RUSSIA ETC

A good majority of Ruble holders do not even know what Bitcoin is

Considering the drop in the price in Rouble, and the sharp increase in interest rates, I doubt buying bitcoin is the first thing on their minds.  Bitcoin isn't exactly a strong investment these days either.  I'm sure most are worried about keeping a roof over their head and food on the table.  Russia is in tough right now, especially with the hard sanctions that have been places against them because of Putin.  Bitcoin as it sits isn't some miracle fix when a currency fluctuates, especially when bitcoin is just as volatile.

The price of oil will go up eventually as will the value of the Ruble.

I am just astounded as to the many people in bitcoins that just have no clue as to trading and its basic model mechanics.

firstly Bicoin is NOT on thge foreign exchange, ( where all those others are traded daily) so the values of the other commodities you mentioned have absolutely no effect on bitocins value or its influence on others.

also you mentioned 2 manipulated markets in there, and Bitcoin is not a market safe haven. Its a get rich quick scheme to investors, if they have extra cash laying around they might invest in bitcoins.

Now your post in general shows how much you just do not understand currency trading, commodities and their power against each other.

First the Rouble is not part of the USD index thus has absolutely no power in USD value. Gold however is greatly influenced by the USD and vice Versa. if USD value goes up gold goes down. OIL that is just a heavily manipulated market everywhere in the world. those guys are worse than the banks.

So if in your post I see that the USD became stronger against rouble that tells me it is getting stronger by index because rouble has nothing to influence the USD value, in knowing this I would automatically ASSUME Gold and Oil will be decreasing, and guess what SO WILL SILVER :)

now why did the USD get stronger, Because of low inventories reported and high consumer buying, in November. But this is an expected movement but it could have been higher than expected. This in addition to maybe some gold contracts possibly getting bought about this time would heavily influence both gold and USD.

ADDED NOTE ( now if consumer spending increased higher than estimated what dopes that tell you about Bitcoins? NO ONE IS BUYING THEM OR USING THEM AND MORE PEOPLE ARE STILL USING CASH THAN WAS EXPECTED!!!!!)

Absolutely NONE of this however, has any influence on Bitcoins value or its demand as an investment.

You logic is really flawed. Rouble lost value. There are more currencies than USD and Rouble.

https://www.google.at/search?hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=jpy+rub&oq=jpy+rub&gs_l=serp.3...0.0.0.2046.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0.msedr...0...1c..60.psy-ab..0.0.0.L9kmjzztvVA&pbx=1
https://www.google.at/search?hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=jpy+rub&oq=jpy+rub&gs_l=serp.3...0.0.0.2046.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0.msedr...0...1c..60.psy-ab..0.0.0.L9kmjzztvVA&pbx=1#hl=en-AT&q=eur+rub

Like other eastern European countries in Russia there is a clear separation in society between "modern" people (guys who travel, uses internet for more than porn and facebook/vk, know a foreign language, etc) and utterly stupid and imbecile peasants (have few savings, go to church each Sunday and then straight to localbar to get some vodka, consider voting for Putin/former communists, never went farther than 300 km from hometown, don't have/watch any foreign tv station, etc).

In Russia the split is around 20/80, hence it is very easy for putin regime to demonize anything they want via their brainwashing (and amusing for westerners) mass-media.

This being said, the "smart" guys already have their savings (or even salaries) in EUR/USD/gold etc. They are affected in a small part by falling rouble, and anyway they can't mitigate this with bitcoins.

For the rest of  80%, they are highly affected by this, but  they are at a living standard their parents and grandparents never dream of (they have electricity, running water, a WC in house and not back of the yard) so there is still a lot to "cut" until they will actually try to think about this. They are all used with "hard times" and even if they try to think/do something about it they will miserably fail since they don't have the knowledge or capacity to think for themselves when it comes to stuff like "should I keep my savings in a cryptocurrency or not"

I think the same , putin will never accept bitcoin because he can't control it.  However maybe it will be a chance for the european countrie ( Like UK, spain , greece, etc...).

Off-topic joke.

Q: What is the exchange rate between the pound, the ruble and the dollar?
A: One pound of dry rubles is worth a dollar.

The problem is not, not knowing the bitcoins. The problem is getting anything for RUB, like USD or bitcoins. There is a limit for buying USD and there is not many place to echange RUB.
You can use some indirect transfers of rouble with lots of fees. And the process is complicated.
Once You get ie. USD what to do with them? Send them back to Your account and risk it will go away ? Sure You can always send it to a bank account abroad.
Some say its the end of RUB but it has to stop at one point.
Not sure if it helps for RUB holders but recently Bitcoin exchange Bitcurex.com has been supporting direct RUB wire transfer.

more info here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=792350.msg9858395#msg9858395

watch max keiser , he said it all in his show max keiser report, special episode about ruble , ruble had a fire baptism, was introduced in the forex with free floating and i think possibility for short selling

good one  ;D

Wow, some load of misinformation, from start to end not a single word of truth.

No, there is no problem buying anything for rouble. In fact, the russian exchange btc-e is one of the top exchanges in the world by volume, there are many localbitcoins high volume sellers, etc etc. The problem is, as was said above, not many people view bitcoin as a safe haven, most people with money flee to USD/EUR, and most common folk just spend their roubles on merchandise like cars and electronics while it's cheaper than anywhere else in the world.

The Russian government can ban BTC anytime. To the average Russians it does not have much appeal. Gold and silver on the other hand are well known and have survived for hundreds of years.

Last I checked it was Bulgarian :(

http://s17.postimg.org/rv8v2v4rj/Capture.jpg

But yeah, I get your point, an anon exchange doesn't quite spell "safe haven."

I think Bitcoin fans are humongously overestimating its position in the world at present.

Similar to the Cyprus thing. I seriously doubt more than a tiny handful of people in the firing line there put a bean into BTC. It was a catalyst for a reasonable number of people elsewhere who were already ideologically inclined to get into it.

We'll see real flights into it a few more years down the line.

No, it is not, don't believe everything you see on the internet. Russian ops, servers around the world, cyprus and bulgaria at one point but it definitely has nothing bulgarian in it.

Is it even registered anywhere?  Can't find any info on the site.

OPEC wants to make shale oil economically unfeasible by retaining a high oil output, and that's what's primarily wrecking the ruble right now.

Exactly, the amount of Russians who are aware of bitcoins is probably 0.01%<, and 80% of that 0.01 probably thinks its something like MMM

A great quantity of people (russian people we say) think (in my honest opinion, naturally) that invest in gold, silver is a better way than Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, because it's true that Rouble lost 50% of its value in few time, but keep in mind that Bitcoin is dropping from 1100$ to 330$, I don't think that it is a good way to invest all of my money in bitcoin.

No it's not, and they are trying hard to stay under radar. So it will be easier to run with the money later :)

The fact that they first announced on a russian sub-forum here in pure russian (here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=29698.0) points to the origins, though; also the fact that most of their initial fiat I/O methods are only used in Russia/Ukraine.

Hi, just looked through the thread, you're most likely right.  OTOH, I'm a native Russian speaker (live in US now), so starting an exchange through .ru sub would be an interesting approach to staying off the radar for me (if I wanted to play Ukyo/TF/etc., etc.) :)

The servers are hosted mostly in Bulgaria but it's definitely a Russian operation. (Maybe Ukrainian, although unlikely. But most definitely not a Bulgarian one.) The company is registered in Cyprus.

I hear that it ain't easy getting US dollars out of it, though.

Any documentation? 

If I'm not wrong, Russia has banned Bitcoin from its country. Why actually Russia have to leave BAN and introduce bitcoin like the next currency? And then consider that Putin actually prefer gold to rouble  :D

From the terms and conditions of the site (https://btc-e.com/page/1):


This kind of language normally specifies the geographical location of the company's registration or headquarters; even when it is just a shell company. My guess is that it was easy to register a shell company in Cyprus and the Russians are well-known to have financial interests there.

No.  That kind of language specifies nothing other than that that kind of language was used.  If a shell company was registered in Cyprus, the name of that shell/shelf would be available on the website, as is the case with Havelock's Panamanian shelf.  Even a shell offers leads to investigators, hence no shell.
Stop believing everything you read on the interwebs.

TL;DR:  For all legal purposes, these Terms of Use this post shall be governed by the laws applicable in the Cyprus. You agree and hereby submit to the exclusive personal jurisdiction and venue of the Cyprus for the resolution of any disputes arising from these Terms of Use.

Am I doin it rite?

There is no reason to pull the "Cyprus" name out of a hat when writing the terms and conditions. These things are written by lawyers and essentially mean "if you are going to sue us, you'd have to find a law in this particular jurisdiction that we have broken, because we legally reside (i.e., have headquarters or are registered) there".

Besides, Cyprus is the obvious choice when you want to register a shell company that does somewhat shady business. Gibraltar is another such place, but the Russians are well-known to have financial interests in Cyprus.

Also, I couldn't find a link right now, but there was some discussion about a prosecutor's office in Volgograd investigating the company (because Bitcoin was banned in Russia) and the admin of the exchange basically saying "we have nothing to worry about, we are registered in Cyprus and we aren't Russian citizens".

The rouble crash increased the Bitcoin value in rouble. If Russia doesn't react stupidly the rouble could recover against other currencies but Bitcoin will beat the rouble over years to come as it will be more adopted and it's market cap is likely to grow to tens of billions.

Lol, "no reason to pull the "Cyprus" name out of a hat"?  It convinced you, did the job, so why not?
As far as "if you are going to sue us" goes, you need to know who "us" is before you can sue, and you don't :)

Re. "we aren't Russian citizens":  So they're not Russian citizens & purportedly registered in Cyprus...  What makes the exchange Russian again?

They could be russians who've emigrated to Cyprus, or they could be bolivians who emigrated to Zimbabwe while pretending that they are russians who emigrated to Cyprus. There are many possibilities, but Occam suggests to pick the most obvious answer, which is - one of the Russia's (former) satellites, maybe Baltic states or Ukraine, if they actually are not citizens (which is just a statement with no proof).

And yeah, you are right - if they actually are registered on Cyprus, does not matter which country they come from, they will be "a cyprus exchange" since local law is all that matters.

The reason would be that they are trying to misdirect governments and others who are trying to dissertation the identity of the operators/owners of btc-e.

Most probably not governments, as it is fairly trivial to get a warrant and the information from the bank that they use for wire transfers. I guess they don't want individuals to know; that sort of income can surely attract attention especially in eastern europe.

Such wild conspiracies are simply unnecessary. They have considerable monetary operations. They work with banks. They have to have a registered company, or no bank will work with them. Registering a shell company in Cyprus is easy, especially for a Russian businessman. There is simply no point in lying about it. There are other means to preserve their anonymity while conforming to acceptable business practices.


Oh, they are Russians. (Could be Ukrainians, although much less likely.) Definitely native Russian speakers. They just aren't Russian citizens, or at least have stated that they aren't. The statement from them that I remember was "although we currently reside in Russia, we aren't Russian citizens" or something like that. My guess is that they have obtained a citizenship from another country and have renounced their Russian citizenship.

There is a reason why the prosecutor's office in Volgograd (Russia) was investigating this particular exchange and not one of the Chinese ones, don't you think so? Determining who they are and where their company is registered wouldn't be a problem for the Russian law enforcement. But the reaction of the admins wasn't "you can't find us"; it was "we aren't in your jurisdiction - servers are in Bulgaria, company is registered in Cyprus, we aren't Russian citizens".

You sound as certain & use the same logic as the intrepid NeoBee investors did when I questioned the integrity of Mr. Danny Brewster (see pic).  
If I'm being too subtle, I'll spell it out:  
1.  A financial institution unwilling to offer the bare rudiments of corporate information, such as address, business registration, and names of the key players likely has a reason for doing so.
2.  Registering a company in Cyprus is trivial, registering an exchange is not.  If BTC-e is registered as a bakery, that's not what most would consider sufficient.
  2(a).  If BTC-e is registered, and has not provided the registration to its clients, why?
3.  Regardless, not registering a company is easier still, especially when one wishes to obscure the names of the key players.
4.  Registering a shell requires a name.  Even when said name belongs to some carder degenerate willing to lend it for a nominal sum.  Such people are easy to flip when shit gets real.
5.  Assuming that an anonymous Bitcoin financial institution will hang around when things go wrong, or when it becomes more profitable to walk with the money, is the stuff bitcointalk legends are made of.

TL;DR:  This is certainly going to end well.


If the people running this thing are not Russian citizens, do not reside in Russia, and the business is [purportedly] registered in Cyprus, what makes it a Russian business again?
I'm a native Russian speaker, BTW.  Haven't set foot in the place in years.


Perhaps.  How long ago was this d00d caught again, I seem to draw a blank?

http://s23.postimg.org/cst9wfyvf/Capture.jpg

And everyone knew his name, he was the golden boy of Bitcoin, he was in all the papers & shit...

I am not sufficiently familiar with this and don't see how it pertains to the matter discussed.
  

I agree with you on this.


Registering a financial (stocks, bonds, currencies) exchange most likely isn't but Bitcoin is new. I can't easily check its legal status in Cyprus but it varies wildly from country to country. For instance, it is considered property in the USA, a foreign currency in Switzerland (if I remember correctly) and, believe it or not, a service in Bulgaria (as a lawyer specializing in IT-related law told me just a couple of days ago). So, registering a company that "buys and sells digital goods" might be much easier there. This needs checking, though.


I don't know. And I don't care. This is of concern only of its clients, which I am not one of. Also, I don't think that there is a law in Cyprus that says that every registered company has the obligation to provide the registration information to its clients.

It seems that you are trying to imply that BTC-e is a shady business. I am not inclined to argue with you on this - mostly because I don't care what kind of business it is; I have no financial stake in it. I simply reported what I knew about it since the subject arose.


It is simply not possible when you have to deal with large amounts of money in various currencies going through the fiat banking system. They could, however, refrain from revealing the fact that their company was registered in Cyprus. Yet they didn't do so.


You have to provide the name and identification to the company registrar, however - not necessarily to the whole world.


I don't see how this is related to the subject of what kind of operation (Bulgarian, Russian or whatever) BTC-e is and where it is registered. As I wrote above, if what you are harping at is that it is a shady business and shouldn't be trusted, I am simply not interested in debating this issue with you and would readily accept your opinion on it.


They said that they resided in Russia - at least at the time when they wrote this - but weren't Russian citizens.


The fact that it was created and is maintained by native Russians (and not Bulgarians, for instance).


Yes, I could tell, even from just your otherwise excellent English. It should be even easier for you to see that the site was created by native Russian speakers and not just translated to Russian.

You don't see how it's relevant because you're not familiar with it.  I even took the time to post his pic, here:

http://s23.postimg.org/cst9wfyvf/Capture.jpg

Google is your friend tho, educate yourself.
 

Find out, instead of guessing.  Knowledge is power :)


But ...you will make lengthy posts about it.  Why not play some vidya instead?


Right.  See above.


You don't understand the rudiments of lying.  "We're a legit business" sounds much less trustworthy than "Legend Machine is a tool & die manufacturer based in Lincoln, Nebraska."
So now you know.


What is it about not giving investigators more leads/greater attack surface don't you get?


No.  You are, once again, mistaken.  
I'm saying that dealing with any anonymous financial institution is a recipe for disaster, a notion which is self-evident to every child, everywhere but here on bitcointalk.  I hope this makes things bit clearer.

it only takes top 1% of billionaires putting wealth into btc for it to be worth orders of magnitude higher.

It only takes 0.1% of billionaires putting wealth into BTCeanie BTCabies for them to be worth orders of magnitude more, what's your point?

They would need to put a good amount of their wealth too.

Yes ofcourse but sooner or later musical chair stops and all ur left holding is beanie babies err i mean fiat... Some smart wealthy people will realize the trend before it kicks in

Sorry, I am not interested enough to research yet another Bitcoin-related scam. I've seen plenty of them already.


Which part of "I can't" you fail to understand? There is a web site in Cyprus for the registered companies, but it is as slow as to be practically unusable from my end and we don't know under what name the company is registered anyway. And I am not part of the law enforcement and cannot check bank accounts.


I am not making lengthy posts about it. Somebody posted that it was a Bulgarian exchange and I corrected him by reporting what I know - that only the servers are based in Bulgaria, the company is registered in Cyprus and the exchange is made and maintained by Russians. The rest of my posts in this thread is you disagreeing with me and me stating where I disagree with you. I am most definitely not advocating BTC-e, if you think that this is what I am doing.


Then, I'm afraid, you don't understand the rudiments of business. It is much worse for a business to be caught lying than to remain anonymous.


They would give them exactly zero leads by not saying which jurisdiction applies to them. Saying anything more (even if a lie) provides more information to the investigators.


I disagree with the general principle - what is important is the trustworthyness and not the name of the institution. Bitcoin itself was designed to transfer value without the need to trust a third party. And Enron was a well-known business, nothing anonymous about it, yet it still turned out to be a scam which ended in a disaster.

But that's in general. In particular, as I said, if your point is that BTC-e is not trustworthy, I am not going to argue with you on this, mostly because I don't care whether it is or isn't.

^TL;DR: Another lengthy, detailed post insisting that you're to lazy to learn the facts because you don't care.
Protip: Don't post about shit you don't know or care about--you'll have time to play more vidya :)

Given you have more than 5200 posts on btctalk since the start of the year (not including your numerous alts/sock puppets), I think it is fair to say no one on this forum has more time to play 'vidya' than you.

Inca, I once had great hopes for Bitcoin.  I never suggested that I don't care.  Besides, other than, perhaps, Goat Simulator, what vidya has as much slapstick hilarity as this forum?
Rhetorical question--no vidya comes close.

Now go and "increase your holdings" 4 mah entertainment :D

Somebody posted an information I knew to be incorrect (that BTC-e is a Bulgarian exchange). I posted a correction and provided the information known to me. This way I believe to have contributed to the thread. I am sorry if my contribution has offended you in any way or if you have perceived it as some form of hindering of your political agenda or whatever. Feel free to ignore me - I won't be offended.

Bitcoin have enough problem of it's own to think about rather than keep thinking about Rouble crash right now.

rouble has just been delisted from bittrex because it was a scamcoin

the year 2014 was bearish for all comodities and most currencies
like gold,silver,oil,bitcoin,rouble,Euro etc
the list is big

The problem is, everything is still indexed with the dollar.  ;D
I would say it is wrong to add the euro to that list, along with the rouble