Bitcoin Forum

Bitstamp problem is on the news :  http://www.cnbc.com/id/102309754 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/102309754)

12 hours without any update !

Ask your money back by bank wire. They must have the money in their bank account.

Do not be passive as you were with Mt.Gox. Claim your money back.

Almost all the deposits were made by bank wire to Bitstamp so they have your money :)

so that 40 dollar price drop yesterday was because of this hack? am i right?

Well if you take what they are saying at face value: "As a security precaution against compromises Bitstamp only maintains a small fraction of customer bitcoins in online systems. Bitstamp maintains more than enough offline reserves to cover the compromised bitcoins. "

There is probably nothing to worry about. Time will tell I suppose.

let's say these are the facts. is it hard to write another update?

 there are many people who are waiting few words. also, i don't blame anybody who is worried because MTgox felt almost in the same way.

Sure if I had coins in Bitstamp I would be worried too. IF Bitstamp are telling the truth everything will be ok. Time will tell.

That's fucked... How much have they lost?

i think yea because people are afraid of mt.gox shutdown and don't want to take risk anymore
they think bitstamp is next after mt.gox

Who keeps his/her coins on an exchange anyway... well


I got a mail from bitstamp:


as I dont keep my coins on an exchange I didnt bother to login and check.

I think the price drop was before the hack actually ....

Very bad news, they handled it well though.

That remains to be seen. If they are telling the truth and they have the funds to cover all customer Bitcoin (and don't take 6 months to return it to people) then they have handled it very well indeed.

They mention a cold storage supply to reimburse users if they do not act on this it will kill their business.

and because of the fake transactions. all big exchangers reported fake transactions. almost 50% are fake.
they manipulated the Bitcoin price and Bitstamp is not a stranger of this, being the 3rd one as volume.


https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/fake-transaction-chains-double-2014-bitcoin-volume/

I repeat, almost ALL the money are in their bank account.

Most of the people are depositing by bank wire so, Bitstamp has the money as fiat currency.

Let's say the BTC from Bitstamp wallets disappear, the BTC is backed by real money(at least 90% from it)

That article doesn't say anything about exchanges faking transactions?

Even without the long chain transactions the article refers to - Bitcoin transactions have been steadily increasing.

Not really sure what evidence you have for your claims?

again misinformation, domain not down..

Do any of these situations end well? Gox, Vircurex, Cryptorush, Mintpal.

Only one that I know of: Poloniex was hacked but paid everyone back.

Mtgox domain is up. Does it help?

He doesn't have any, he just wants to spread fud.

please tell that to Mt Gox clients who lost A LOT of money.

People like you came at that time saying that "someone is spreading FUD".

I am just saying that Bistamp's clients must claim their money back. Their money are into Bitstamp's bank account. They don't have to be passive as they were with MTgox.

They must react from the first moment an exchanger is "down" for a "hacking" problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtCVRIwcBYU&index=1&list=PLjgfpSQFJTLqbgHm8mkgPdD-ma7t0bRhK

decentralized BTC exchange cannot be hacked

(trustless / no counterparty risk / insured and secured by blockchain technology)

Ok, prove these two bolded claims you made then:

Nothing have been enclosed with hacked or compromised. They already gave a public statement, people just like to fud at this.
They To restate: "the bulk of our bitcoin are in cold storage, and remain completely safe."

Look to the Bitstamp numbers. Most of their deposits are coming from bank wires. How else? It's something normal. :)
How can you buy Bitcoin from Bitstamp if you want to trade? By bank wire, of course. How do you withdrawn your Bitcoin? By bank wire. All the transactions are through bank in the end because the people needs real money not Bitcoin.

So, BitStamp has a lot of money in their bank account which can cover any loss (or least should do it...who knows ...)

please read again :

 "We have reason to believe that one of Bitstamp’s operational wallets was compromised on January 4th, 2015."


https://www.bitstamp.net/

Hah, right argument...but they promise (stamp) to cover the loses so why should there be an problem with value?

When miners and merchants sell BTC some/many of them quickly withdraw the fiat. To say that Bitstamp can cover lost Bitcoins from the bank account makes no sense in the real world.

There is no reason to panic, since Stamp has a much better track record than Gox ever did.

I am saying that all the Bitcoin that Bitstamp's clients are buying, are bought with real money by bank wire.
These money are in Bitstamp's bank account.

more than that, imagine someone is buying 1 BTC with 300 USD by bank wire and a week after 1 BTC = 200 USD. many are selling.
Make the calculations. Bitstamp had around of 2 MIL USD deposits per day.
a month ago  1 BTC = 380  .
now 1 BTC = 280 USD

100 USD is the difference. calculate how much they earned in 1 month only from bitcoin price.
YES, they earned millions in one month :))


Ask your money back !

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=38966

You see. Vod knew this long time ago, that Bitstamp is scam. He placed negative trust t one of Bitstamp owner half year ago. If more people would listen to Vod, world of crypto would be much safer.

As a reminder, here's the first Mt. Gox notice when they stopped withdrawals: (https://web.archive.org/web/20140221150526/https://www.mtgox.com/press_release_20130620.html)
That was the first of many excuses. Two weeks later, withdrawals did not resume. A few people were able to pry funds out of Mt. Gox after that date, but not many. On July 1, 2013, I wrote: (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=244439.msg2632457#msg2632457)

I'm saying the same thing this time. If there's any way you can get your assets out of Bitstamp, do it now. Do not delay. Use lawyers if necessary.

Lol you keep saying that, tell me how instead...

Can someone explain this to me though? I mean, if they didn't get hacked then they scammed people? everyone keeps advising to get their money back like they're gonna lose it.

Yep, unless you guys are hiding Bitstamp's employees in your pockets... exactly how are you going to "ask" for anything?

If someone has a spare genie, please lend me your lamp ;)

call Bitstamp. travel to Slovenia if you are in Europe. it's 2 hours away of any Europe corner.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob9Ak1t09Ao

Btc-e also survived a hack back in 2012: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=96831.0

who is BTC-e owner or CEO ? do you know where is their office? :)

BTC-e is very fishy.

What you are trying to say? That they scammed somebody? I personally didn't experience any issues with them, neither with Bitstamp until now.

I am saying that many people are using fishy companies. who is BTC-e? give one name, a bank account under their company's name, give me something that it's real about them :)

Let's get on the same page, "1, 2, 3":

The people who make fiat deposits often never make cash withdrawals, if they only buy and remove BTC.
Much of the cash is taken out by others, who deposited and sold Bitcoins.

1) An unknown amount of Bitcoin is missing, not cash.
2) None of the missing Bitcoin can legally be replaced with money from "Bitstamp's bank account".
3) Telling people to withdraw cash does nothing for people who might have lost Bitcoins.

The lastest statement from CEO Nejc Kodrič :

"Bitstamp customers can rest assured that their bitcoins held with us as prior to temporary suspension of services on January 5th (at 9am UTC) are completely safe and will be honored in full.

On January 4th, some of Bitstamp’s operational wallets were compromised, resulting in a loss of less than 19,000 BTC.  Upon learning of the breach, we immediately notified all customers that they should no longer make deposits to previously issued bitcoin deposit addresses.  As an additional security measure, we suspended our systems while we fully investigate the incident and actively engage with law enforcement officials.

This breach represents a small fraction of Bitstamp’s total bitcoin reserves, the overwhelming majority of which are are held in secure offline cold storage systems. We would like to reassure all Bitstamp customers that their balances held prior to our temporary suspension of services will not be affected and will be honored in full.

We appreciate customers’ patience during this disruption of services. We are working to transfer a secure backup of the Bitstamp site onto a new safe environment and will be bringing this online in the coming days. Customers can stay informed via updates on our website, on Twitter (@Bitstamp) and through Bitstamp customer support at support@bitstamp.net."

So. all the "rumors" were right. 5 MIL lost.

The website will be (MAYBE) online a 1 week or so...i recommend you to ask your money back those who deposited them by bank wire.

It's normal for Russia, think about Russia's probale Bitcoin ban, which is likely to be approved in several months. They don't want Russian state to knock their door some day. They operate several years and everybody were able to withdraw their money anytime they like, at least I'm not aware of the opposite.

Well, we know BitStamp lost 5 MIL. what's next ?:)

I don't believe that they will cover the shit. I think it will be a long process....
Their bank account will be frozen for sure if they announced police(as they already stated).....

Update from bitstamp :

"We would like to reassure all Bitstamp customers that their balances held prior to our temporary suspension of services will not be affected and will be honored in full." -bitstamp

Company was moved to London i think last year. But founders grew up 15km from my home. They dont spend much time there and if they took money will not in future either.


5 mil will be covered easy they probably make that much profit in one month.

yes, agree with you but according to their audit, they had 800K profit :)
now, either the financial statement is not good, either Bitstamp hide the money from accountant or together and this is tax evasion :)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=785256.0

now bullshit is spreading on twitter: http://pastebin.com/2SDMXVk1

oh inderwebz, lol

Lol. Look at all the kiddies out there  ::)

And would be so easy for them to give us a cryptographic prove. Don't understand people wasting time with this. 

There are always some journalists or politicians who would jump on this....

new message at https://www.bitstamp.net/

finally some people who know what they do

I could be wrong but my gut tells me they're telling the truth and everything will be fine.

i think so too

Bitcoin price is going down = exchangers are making millions from the difference of price.

Bitstamp will pay(IF) the so called loss from your money not from their own pockets. :)

- let's say you bought 250 BTC with 100K via bank wire. 1 BTC = 400
- you trade for a while and you see the price is going down. what do you think? hey, let's sell and I am recovering a part of my money; and you sell.
- now, you will you see 250 BTC for 70K.   1 BTC = 280 USD

The exchanger will send you the bank wire for 70K but he is sending the transfer from YOUR 100K.   ;)
Exchanger profit = 30K because he has your 100K (USD/EURO) in his bank account already.

Now, a new "investor" will come thinking "Bitcoin price is down, it's time to buy". The price is raising and then it will fall.
Of course, the big exchangers are "giving" money from the previous HUGE earnings just to attract new fouls with new funds. Smiley

This is for a short period of time. They give "some" and they will earn A LOT.

That's why they need visibility/noise in the news. Because with every single news other fouls will come with new funds.

...And that's why the exchangers are having very, very low fees of 0.2% for trading or free for withdrawals. They do not care about these money. The REAL money are made with the Bitcoin price. How can financial company exists with 0.2% per transaction?

There are few BIG exchangers(Bitstamp is in this gang) and they give the Bitcoing price.
They know the market, they know what funds are coming, the other small exchangers are related with them(all the small exchangers are exchanging with the big ones) .

Now, tell me. Do you really think that there is no manipulation on market? I am not addresing the question to monkeys, hipters  but to people with a human brain Smiley

Get real, the exchangers are making millions from the Bitcoin price and not from "trading"

Well, no.

1. You tend to forget that you do not trade "with" an exchange, but "over" an exchange. If youa ctually bought at 400/BTC and then sold at 280/BTC someone will be having the money you now do not have anymore. But this someone is not the exchange. It is another trader (could be me;).
-->exchanges need the money from fees (there are way better ways to cheat anyway).
2. Yes there is manipulation. massive manipulation. it is because it is not forbidden at all. But again, giving only the exchanges credit for that would be wrong. simply unregulated market. live with it or go to a regulated market. but don´t make yourself be sorry about it.
-->Why does a dog lick his balls? right. that´s why.

1. so, you send 100k to an exchanger to buy 250 BTC/400 USD and then you sell 250 BTC for 270 USD. The money are already in the exchanger's bank account; those 100 K.
you will only get 70k. there is a difference of 30K IN THE exchanger's bank account. :)
100-70 = 30K

"other trader"(or maybe the exchanger in disguise), anyway...you as seller do not care, is coming to buy 250 BTC but for 270 USD for a total amount of 70K.
what did I say wrong? you will lose 30K in any way you want. This money  belongs to the exchanger because he received your initial deposit of 100K.
The new "trader" will have to wire 70K to exchanger in order to get 250 BTC.

2. you are right. unregulated market. who is controlling the market? who is owning the money and the resources? the exchangers, the big ones.so, they are manipulating the market. can you or me doing it? nope. :)

 then,the people should not cry after their money lost with MTgox or with other exchangers. :)

I see where you are going.
So all the money in the exchanges bank account belongs to the exchange? well that is only true, if you believe the exchange will not payout your fiat balance and simply keep the money (Then again all the 100k would be "lost" as soon as you deposit them).

But this is not what is going on at bitstamp, this is what is going on at hitbtc right now.

no, I am saying that the exchanger will pay you the money, 70K but he will keep 30K because the price, guess what, fell :)

those 30K belongs to whom? where are those 30K?  30K are in intial 100K that you initially sent to exchanger.

the exchanger will pay you 70K from your 100K. 30K is lost for you and "earned" for exchanger and all that because "they can" :)


why do you think so many people are involved in this business? for 800K profit per year(this is what Bitstamp declared in 2013)?
ha ha...

They hired a forner Paypal chief. Do you think that this guy came for 3000 USD per month? he came for at least 20K/month.
BitStamp is having a lot of people to pay. They cannot afford to have 0.2% per trade :)

the big money are coming from what I said above, Bitcoin price.
Imagine they receive 2 MIL/day bank wire deposits. That means 7400 BTC/270 USD

let's say the prices is dropping at 250 USD in 2 days(very possible). that means 7400 x 270 = 1,850,000 USD
2,000,000 - 1,850,000 = 150,000 USD in 2 days. :)

now, try to calculate for the last month when the price dropped with 100 USD.
2 mil per day deposit x 20 = 40 mil usd. . they earn around of 2- 3 MIL NET PROFIT in ONE month

We can over say 1 mil/month net profit. :)  

the "trading fees" are pocket money .

I only have bitcoins in bitstamp, which deposits and withdrawals are suspend now, sad :-[ I don't know that how much BTC I can withdraw from them.

but I think the fiat should be as usual because it's done by bank, you may withdraw your fiat from bitstamp now

Until they prove they have enough funds to cover the 18k BTC loss I won't believe anything they say.

Proving it won't take long. Yet still no proof has come forth. Just words.

It is important to make sure their customers are calm and to prevent any kind of 'run on the bank'.

If there is an exchange (bank) run then they would potentially need to top off their hot wallet more frequently then desired or keep a larger amount of money in their hot wallet then they would like. These both would cause potential security risks.

If they can keep their customers calm they may be able to operate on a fractional reserve system until they can generate enough revenue/earnings to cover their losses.

Come on, seriously? When you buy/sell btc on an exchange you're not trading with the exchange but with another user.

Let's take your example, A opens an account at bitstamp and deposit 100k, then buys 250 BTC at 400 USD/BTC. Those 100k will go to user B's account. B cashes out those 100k and bitstamp wires them to him... Then user C comes to invest, he deposits 70k on his account. Then he buys the 250 BTC user A sells for 280 USD/BTC after the price drop and bistamp sends a wire for 70k to user A. See, da money is not in the pocket of the exchange ;D

this is one pattern but many exchangers are dealing themself as user B :)

Bitstamp is closed but we know that they are related with Coinbase,Bitfinex and other exchangers who were processing their orders through them.
The question is which one will be affected of this loss.  ;)

Was this an inside job?  :-\

we cannot exclude that. Bitstamp is an old and big exchanger.It was supposed to have good programmers. Why weren't hacked half a year ago?
I bet many others hackers have tried to steal their Bitcoin until now.

let's not forget that this is a pattern for "how to run with the money" in this industry.

And definitely a bad advertisement for Bitcoin as a currency  >:(
In public magazines, bitcoin is always related to hackers, steals, frauds and illegal activities, which pisses me off  >:(

which is true and we have to admit it. there is a small percent of people who are using it for "trading" only.
it is a manipulated market(exchangers are doing it).
a simple example is today. Bitstamp died and the BitCoin price is the same.

Do not tell me that the people were not in a little panic and they didn't sell or others were so enthusiasts and bought same day with the Bitstamp crash.

Normally, the price should go down at least for few hours or so. it's obvious that the other big exchangers and the Bitcoin foundation are making the game...

True...
http://bitcoinity.org/markets/list?currency=ALL&span=6m

For 6 months timespan, Bitstamp has only 4% of the market.
China leading with almost 80%

I doubt that. Why? because the chineses (Okcoin, BTChina, Huobi and others) are faking the data.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/chinese-bitcoin-exchange-accused-faking-trade-data-1430122

Ha!
Thank you for this article, didn't know that.

my question remains : Bitstamp is closed but we know that they are related with Coinbase, Bitfinex and MANY other exchangers who were processed their orders through BitStamp.

The question is which one will be more affected  because they surely lost a lot of bitcoin too.

On January 4th, some of Bitstamp’s operational wallets were compromised, resulting in a loss of less than 19,000 BTC is stated on bitstamp.net

How much BTC are they suppose to hold?

2-3 K bitcoin or less in their operational wallet

If BitStamp have to be closed down, it will be horrible news for bitcoin & bitcoin price
Many people's will doubt bitcoin :(

And some services have big loss

Sorry but I do not understand what you mean with related with Coinbase, Bitfinex ...?

Coinbase, Bitfinex and others included the Bitstamp order book into their own order book.
In short, if you placed an order with Bitfinex,  your order was processed by Bitstamp even you were on Bitfinex's website.
Bitfinex "fowarded" your order to Bitstamp through an API.

Thank you, i did not know that! which means that all orders of bitfinex ran over bitstamp?

Many of them, yes. Anyway, it must be 50% or more.

another big bitcoin scandal
it s very bad for btc's future
people wants safetly system..

you cannot have a so called safe system while it's not regulated.

it's very curious that the Bitcoin price is the same.

the other big exchangers are faking the transactions for sure otherwise who will BUY these days? most of the people are selling  ;D

As you can see, nothing happens with the price. It's like frozen. There are massive sells but the price is not dropping at all.
Again, the big exchangers are manipulating the market.

that was true in the beginning but is not longer the case
afaik bitfinex has higher volume than stamp these days (didnt check though)

In July 2014, Bitfinex made a declaration about that . that means 5-6 months ago...not in the beginning. I am sure Bitfinex were still used Bitstamp and Coinbase the same.

At least they stopped the trade after withdraw has been stopped.

Unlike Gox and their 50 bucks GoxCOins

yes, they were not too greedy :)

I honestly do not think this event will lower the price of bitcoin. Bitcoin is already pretty low and bitstamp I think is trying to correct it. Bitstamp is probably one of the most reliable exchanges (and transparent unlike btc-e).

surely this is what we all do not want

how Bistamp can correct the price when it's down/dead? :)

normally, Bitstamp price must be much lower based on market which is selling. Since 2 days, the price is frozen at 270 USD which is not normal.

The big exchangers can do that in order to avoid panic.. :) BUT this is market manipulation .

I think some are overeacting a bit. Bitstamp will be fine and the way they handled this issue they might just get the thieves.
And please dont compare Bitstamp with Mtgox, which was fuck up from the very beginning!

did they give an estimate about when it will be live again?

they said "We are working to transfer a secure backup of the Bitstamp site onto a new safe environment and will be bringing this online in the coming days"

IMO, you will hear news next week.

You will what will happen tomorrow, if this new exchange will be up, will all be fine. if not and there will excuses started, could get alarming.  
If all wil get solved in just 2 days from start, no matter that went just about 19k BTC, they will prove they deserve to be of one of top exchanges.

CCN has an article up saying they will resume services within 24hrs

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitstamp-resume-operations-next-24-hours/

If they "just" lost 19,000 BTC and they had more than 19,000 BTC than the customers funds, they will resume and it will be forgotten. Two "if".

two BIG if :)

There are winners from this situation, Bitfinex and Btc-e. They earned a lot of clients in the last 2 days.

it was the biggest exchanger, Mtgox.
Why Bitstamp is different? a, yes.

Bistamp is related to Ripple, Bitcoin Foundation and others. Their shareholders are shareholders for many other bitcoin companies.

i think they will cover the loss because the scandal will be TOO BIG and it will involve all these companies and Bitcoin will crush.
Bitfinex, Coinbase are related with Bitstamp. Bitstamp is processing their orders.

So, they are a gang who is manipulating the market how they want and each of them are taking a piece of the cake named Bitcoin.

Yes but if Bitcoin stays a relative low price for a while they may not benefit from it much especially if more people are afraid to trust other exchanges with a lot of bitcoins.

the people wants to sell and they do it. what to do with Bitcoin? waiting to wake up in a morning and to see that you don't have it because a russian kid hacked your wallet?

the people are using the existing exchangers because they have no choice.

24-48h ETA:
https://twitter.com/nejc_kodric/status/552615256452001792

Says nothing about how they will honor that 18000+ BTC loss.

A system being up does not make losses go away.

Time will tell on if my skepticism is right or wrong.

wow. look at this:

https://blockchain.info/address/1L2JsXHPMYuAa9ugvHGLwkdstCPUDemNCf (https://blockchain.info/address/1L2JsXHPMYuAa9ugvHGLwkdstCPUDemNCf)

this relaunch is no sense if they won't solve their problems

I am curious if they still have their bank account opened and if the bank did't froze the funds

yes, someone is moving the funds. that guy is very rich now :)

Add Paytunia to that list (there are other very small ones, Openex , Indiemarket etc) . I have used most exchanges that ever existed (28 different in all) and lost funds on many: that is a longer list !

I would say Poloniex handled their problem best of all. Complete frankness, and users were informed of the net amount they were owed, and that was carried forward on their balance, being paid down slowly from operating profit. I still use Poloniex and trust them as well as any.

Paytunia (Bitcoin-Central) repayed all losses, but stopped operating (so far).

https://blockchain.info/address/1L2JsXHPMYuAa9ugvHGLwkdstCPUDemNCf

it's done...the funds were moved :)

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitstamp-resume-operations-next-24-hours/

it will be full operational in 6 hours.

hope it really happens.

I still have nightmares with Gox promising reopen with limits for withdraws, then nothing happening and they giving some random excuse

yes. remember this? :))

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/mtgox-withdrawals-resume/

Yesterday bitstamp announced they'll be back after 24h, today you hear they'll be back in 24-48h. There's a serious problem going on, next panic sell more likely to happen

the sells became since yesterday but the price didn't reflect that. very strange

We won't see any "panic selling" till Bitstamp reopens. Then I'm sure some frustrated customers will cash out.

If Bitstamp remains closed prices may go up in the short term due to fewer btc on the market. Already we are seeing this. Long term prices will be down.

The stolen coins still remain a question.

If after they ReOpen all customer Withdraw BTC

sure they will collapse

They
1. Had enought funds that they made from fees and they pay it from their pocket
2. They have lend liquidity

7 hours later, didn't happen.

I belive it will be up soon :)

I wonder how much user trust will be damaged on bitstamp after this case. But if they recover, I think all people will have more trust like before

so we're not done with hacking era yet..aw

9 hours later, didn't happen.

They changed the temporary website design, that's something  ;D

I really hope they are not buying time  :-\

5 Mil to cover. they should do it otherwise Ripple and other companies related with Bitstamp will go down. the scandal will be huge

This is from nejc kodric's tweeter

Nejc Kodrič ‏@nejc_kodric  9h9 hours ago
We are fully rebuilding our systems from the ground up so that customers can use @Bitstamp with full confidence and trust.
-------

Nejc Kodrič ‏@nejc_kodric  8h8 hours ago
To clarify, we are still working to resume full services in the coming days.  I don't have an exact time estimate to share yet.

-------
My earlier tweet of 48 hours was a rough timeframe.  We are testing our redeployed system internally before going live again to customers.

-------
Nejc Kodrič ‏@nejc_kodric  7h7 hours ago
We will keep you posted on twitter and the website when we have a more exact ETA.

--------

So, do they rebuilt the whole platform or do they only change the server?

The first case is impossible. Nobody can make a platform in a week.

The second case: how do they fix the bug so fast? 3-4 days is a very short time to discover and to fix a bug in a such platform.
They have to discover,fix and change the server which must be configured.

it is possible to write a btc exchange in one week. but i wouldnt use it because its untested and full of bugs.

but:
they dont need to develop a new design,
internal fiat deposit processes and apis are ready
i guess the matching engine is on a dedicated backendserver and dont need a change (at least i would design it that way; not sure about others)

13 hours later, didn't happen.

Their page now has only vague comments about their timetable: "We appreciate customers’ patience during this disruption of services. We are working to transfer a secure backup of the Bitstamp site onto a new safe environment and will be bringing this online in the coming days."

The key point here is that they are not processing withdrawals. They're not even talking about processing withdrawals. They're supposedly focusing on getting their trading platform back up, as if that matters to their depositors.  Whenever a financial service has trouble processing withdrawals, that is a big red flag. This is exactly the sort of thing Mt. Gox pulled. There was always some excuse from Mt. Gox. Too many people let them get away with it. Mt. Gox stopped withdrawals in June of 2013, despite any contractual right to do so. That was when it was time to begin applying legal pressure. But Bitcoin suckers hung on all the way to the bankruptcy at the end of February 2014, eight months later.

As I wrote previously, if you're in the UK, send them a statutory demand for payment of a debt to start the 21-day clock. Do it now. That puts heavy pressure on them to start withdrawals. 

I initiated a Withdrawal via bank 04/01/2015.  They claim to have trouble with their Bitcoin systems, but that does not excuse them from sending my bank wire.  Cool story about your exchange Bitstamp, but you can still process my wire.

contact their bank. they have millions in their account. you must receive the wire.

i think it is impossible to detect the hacking problem. there are a lot of functions and you must verify them ALL including the APIs.
it should take 2-3 weeks at least if they don't want to be backed again.
Imagine their programmer must read all the code and to realize if the problem is from server or from their platform. :)
not easy at all....

That's an even bigger red flag. That's a strong indication of them not having funds.

So they officially shut down their site (trading etc) on the 5th from their first post on their main page.

So if a wire was initiated and confirmed prior to that...I can't see why it would be delayed in any way.

There is no good reason I can think of as the initiation of withdraw happened before they noticed they were hacked and shut down functionality of their site.

Tsk tsk tsk 

Oh really? Maybe it's more of a strong indication that they have reason to worry the hacker might have been in the system earlier than they think, already sold bitcoins and was hoping to withdraw FIAT before being caught.

Not to mention the lawsuit that would have come from bitcoin holders suing the company for allowing Fiat holders to remove money from a system before they had 100% secured it and done a forensic analysis. Not to mention give a copy all the data to the investigating authorities.

But if you're right- and the house of cards has already collapsed from within- then they would declare bankrupcy anyway and your demand for payment is worthless. If your wrong, and they are fine and just being extra diligent about making sure all is okay before restarting service, then you're impatient and will earn their ire.  All we can do is wait- so far they have given us no reason to not trust them. But of course, "walk softly and call your lawyers". :-)

Hey crazy rabbit you have been around for a long time, why do you always come into threads like this being so incredible naive?

Here is a post from you from February:

Seems you have not learned much. When stuff like this happens the correct response is always to act fast and be very aggressive. Everyone with money stuck on Stamp should really take the advice of smoothie and Nagel.


You must never have tried withdrawing from Bitstamp or you would know their KYC/AML routines are very strict. Do you really think a hacker who is sitting on 5m in Bitcoin would give up his identity to withdraw a little bit of fiat?

its possible that this hack has been planned over several months ...........its very possible the hacker registered using a stolen identity or fake passport etc 

5 million is a lot of money so this attack might have been well planned

its also possible the loses are even bigger than stated (more than they can repay etc ) and theyre wondering WTF to do about it 

Agree with this, but that still does not mean he would withdraw fiat as you need to withdraw to an account in the same name of the ID you have sent to Bitstamp.

in eastern european countries the banking laws are very lax compared with usa or uk and corruption is rife  etc
you could probably open an account with a fake ukranian or  bulgarian driving licence etc

these are available to criminals fairly easily ,even on silk rd but i think its unlikely the hacker will convert to fiat anytime soon 
and when he does it will be in small chunks because nobodys going to walk into a bank and withdraw 5 million in cash for btc
he just stolen :)

i dont see any good news about bitstamp
it s going to be scam
i hope i am wrong but it look like mygox..

No, this case only demonstrates, that bitstamp don't have a correct  protection, detection and auditing measures, after a mail to ALL their customers a few hours after, they close the service and the hacker continues cleaning the bitstamps wallets and bitstamp without transfer their founds to a secure wallet for more of 1 day.

no, no, bad security is very, very expensive.

Don't confuse naive with supportive. I've had serious problems with Bitstamp in the past and they have resolved all of them with professionalism. The same was true for me with Gox. At the time, I had genuine reason to trust them and I generally play the devil's advocate on most issues.

That said- I did close the statement with: "Call your Lawyers". I would argue its more naive of you to think you have any recourse other than the legal system. They either come through on their promise, or you sue them.

So your idea is to act fast and be aggressive. Are you offering to hold Bistamps CEO's family hostage?  EDIT: Aggressive AND productive. EDIT2: I toned down my own aggressive wording to contribute to a civil discussion.


I withdraw all the time and I've gone through all the legal nonsense required for their KYC/AML routine. That said nothing in their routine is that difficult to fake. Passport Scan? Utility Bill? Government ID? Considering how easy those are to fake, you might be surprised to learn that getting a poor person in the former communist block countries to give you power of attorney on their bank account is easier then photocopying their ID.

Now, withdrawing $5 million in cash isn't something that would go unnoticed, but you're assuming that all they stole was those 18K BTC. How was Bitstamp supposed to know this for sure AT THE TIME THEY SUSPENDED SERVICE? For all they know, they might be approving fiat withdrawls for tens of thousands of FIAT across any number of fake bank accounts. Maybe Bitstamp has been bleeding for quite awhile now and they didn't know it? Maybe someone else's earlier hack on the system left them exposed to this newer, more impatient thief? The possibilities are endless and the right thing to do was to suspend everything pending a thorough review.

Also, not to mention- Smoothie and I have jousted on a number of occasions and I quite respect his/her opinion. That said- he/she is not Bitstamps legal council. I can't imagine a situation where anyone reasonable could support processing withdrawals while simultaneously being robbed. They did the right thing, even if it screws us the customer. They stopped everything, probably did a system snapshot, and called the police.

So yeah, hope for the best because you can't do a single damned thing about it at this point. But because I HAVE learned from my experience with Gox, I have ALSO already called my lawyer. So should you.

what police? from Slovenia or UK? :)

Someone called the Bitstamp "office" from UK and there is only an address there....
They have to announce UK police because Bitstamp is a an UK company. I doubt they did it....

If Bitstamp lost 19,000 BTC it was a good move to stop operations. If they lost more, stopping operations was also the move to make.

what kind of security were they running to manage to "lose" 19,000btc  ??

there is no way this shit can still be happening in 2015 after its happened so many times previously

Because most of these exchangers are ran by amateurs, hipters who think about their self that they are GODS.

That's why these things are happening. Look to their behavior. They think that they are a corporation; I am not sure why the most of these so called exchangers are posing as having large offices like Apple, Microsoft, Bank of America when it is not a shame to be modest.

You can run this business from your home as well or from a small and cozy office if you really want that. It's perfectly normal to do that because you don't need hundreds of employees.

You need someone(1-2 people) to reply to tickets (if you are a big exangers), checking the incoming and outgoing transactions (by bank wire) and a part time programmer if your platform is safe.He just have to take a look over it daily.

Mtgox or Moolah are only two examples of arrogance.

Look here : http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e63_1404777061

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob9Ak1t09Ao

This is a common behavior for almost all these "exchangers". They are "busy" people, full of the word's problems. Nobody can understand what  "burden" they carry but in essence they are some kids who saw a lot of money in their hands.

They are full of vanity....they know better than anyone how the "things" are in the financial industry even they have 25 years old.

They create FINANCIAL "scripts" on  knees and saying "it's the best"  even they only tested for 1-2 weeks. A financial software costs from few hundreds of thousands to millions of USD.

 That's why the banks and the real forex companies are paying fortunes for their software security and even so, you cannot be sure.

It is SO fucking funny when you see : "We are fully rebuilding our systems from the ground up so that customers can use Bitstamp with full confidence and trust (in 48 hours)"

https://twitter.com/nejc_kodric/status/552091195795845120

How can someone check and fix a hacking problem in days when it's about a financial platform?

Thousands of code lines must be checked and rechecked + the server configuration. It is impossible in 48 hours;not even in a week.

That's why all the hacks are happening. The greed and vanity will bring down all these so called exchangers.

Unfortunately, their clients will pay the bill.

As much as I hate my money being tied up there- you have a point. There are a lot of things to check, too many to be done in only 24-48 hours and really feel 'safe'.

If they were truly honest they could put back a simplified website so people could check their accounts and see their balances and even request fiat transfers since the problem was with their bitcoin wallet.

assuming theyre not going to liquidate the business and ...............keep the lot
like gox etc

It seems safer to not allow outgoing bank wires just to be sure they are not cashing out stolen funds.

they have more a lot of money in their bank account. at least 40 MIL :)

Stamp might be sitting on loads of unclaimed bitcoins from traders who are incarcerated or failed to submit kyc documents. However, most governments require unclaimed funds be turned over to the State. Perhaps Stamp believes it has legal standing to keep bitcoins on grounds that such laws apply to fiat funds only? Weak argument, but may buy Stamp some time.

this is their pocket money. they will not cover the loss from their own profit. Maybe Morehead (their investor) will put 5 MIL ...he seems to be a good  to milk. :)

They will probably cover it from their pockets as they have allowed this error to happen.

Yes, hopefully they do but they don't want to cash out funds that are related to the hack.

Although technically Gox didn't keep it- the Japanese legal system has it and will determine what to do with it.

For my own personal coins- I sure to hell hope they are okay.

https://twitter.com/nejc_kodric/status/553260340411379714

Same scenario as gox. Rest assured your coins are safe we are implemtning security procedures . Days become weeks weeks become bankrupty. RIP

I'm a Gox victim. I lost 95% of my coins with Gox. I am rich in experience.  :P

If I had any coins with Bitstamp, I would withdraw them as soon as I could. I would be very concerned.

But nevertheless I think with Bitstamp it's a little bit different, if you compare it with Gox.

1. There are no criminals that run away with your money.
2. They have only lost a fraction of their deposits (10-15%).
3. They have Pantera as wealthy and strong backer.

I can't say anything else positive about Bitstamp but these are hard facts.

I hope that no one loses its money and feel with all stakeholders.

May all well be true but its the same scenario and I lost money on gox. Rest assured your coins are safe we are on the verge of reopening. Our company is working with this and that company tightening security holes we are close to reopening and then oh we are bankrupt sorry for the incconvenience and there is no word i hate more then the word of convenience . An inconvenience is something trivial this is not trivial Stop using the word inconvenience. THis is a fucking travesty and is starting to have the same smell and look of gox to a t..

Sigh... it has been over 48 hours, and still nothing. At least give a more honest or realistic ETA so we can plan accordingly.

before that it was 24 hours next it will be working hard at solving security issues ty for your paitence. He backtracked on the 48 hours saying that was a rough estimate fucking lying fucker. Post screen shots of assets if we can be res assured taht we will get our moneys. By taking our monies and vanishing there is no reason to not  leap to conclusion that this is gox all over again as has all the earmarks of gox . I had so much faith in these guys and it was obviously unwarranted. Take the money and dissapear for a week with nothing but rhetoric is reprehensible .

I can see your approach.

Note: I am a guy. Been confirmed multiple times in person by several users.

That is correct I am not Bitstamp's legal counsel.

When MTGOX was not allowing fiat withdraws in June 2013 I stopped using them immediately and moved to bitstamp and coin base.

I'm surprised in January/February you were supporting them saying this:


They did not handle an enormous volume of withdraws for 8 months prior to your post. So for you to say that I have to agree it does sound naive and in fact plain wrong.

Your post above is a classic example of where you failed to understand the issues mtgox was having for months.

Any business that can't process withdraws (fiat) for months is hiding something. There were many tells including the huge price disparity on gox vs btce or bitstamp etc.

I even made my own personal prediction in January 2014 saying that there would be a big event that will break MTGOX.

I didn't need to know that there was insider trading or a hack or Mark pocketing coins to know that there was something truly wrong with MTGOX months before they went belly up. Whenever a company's claims conflict in what they do there is a good chance they are trying to hide something. In MTGOX's case it was pretty obvious they were hiding something for a long long time.

In May 2013 at the Inside Bitcoins conference in San Jose MTGOX was supposed to be a major sponsor of their free wifi or something and then when I got there it was if the conference organizers tried to remove MTGOX from every piece of advertising given their recent closure and seizure of accounts in the US.

Not far after that they stopped fiat withdraws completely. I'm sure there was some loop hole to get fiat out which that user STURLE used to get fiat in and out of gox to benefit from the high price, but it wasn't a fair playing field for all gox customers.

Bitstamp going down like this is a huge red flag for me. I will not be using Bitstamp for a very long time if ever. To lost 10+% of their total customer deposited bitcoins is unacceptable and anyone keeping money or coins there with them after they "reopen" (if they do) deserve to lose their funds as there are many risks to leaving them on there after such an event.

What is stopping them from proving they have the remaining balance of bitcoins?

It takes what a few minutes at most?

This is something that should have been done days ago.

At this point bitstamp is in the process of formulating an effective exit strategy plain and simple. Getting all its ducks in a row to screw everyone out of their money. What have they done ot refute this?

Proving now they have the coins would stop them to file bankruptcy and claim they have no coins left because of the hack..

Absolutely right, but have you understood the deeper meaning?

What is an alternative? I just try to find out:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=918149.0
 
This forum and western people have become unimportant for the Bitcoin economy.
Things are happening now in China (where no one is interested in Bitstamp).
And I would have to lie, if I would say that I am not deeply worried about that development.

We are excellent in blaming each other but unable to behave with integrity and discretion. We do not act like a community.
Without China Bitcoin would already be dead as a doornail. People already sitting on their offline wallets. We have 7tx/s bandwidth.
Without a trusted and respected ecosystem of enterprises Bitcoin is useless for the masses.
Since a long time I'm just watching. Don't trade don't use it anymore. Zerotrust to everyone. :-[

I wonder what we can do (not what someone else can do). I love the idea of a free currency. But what's wrong with us if we can achieve this only by China?

All the chinesse exchangers are making a lot of fake transactions. When I am saying fake, it means 1:10.
if they report 1000 transactions that means 100.

http://www.coindesk.com/chinese-bitcoin-exchange-okcoin-accused-faking-trading-data/

http://bitcoinpricelive.com/chinese-bitcoins-crash-market/

To be honest. We don't know.

But if that were true what you say, then Bitcoin would strongly overvalued at the moment. I do not pay over 200$ for an mostly fake traded asset. How crazy is this?

But probably you are right and maybe all is fake in China. Maybe there are only living a few people and the Chinese wall is only a few meters long.

Do you have ever seen a Chinese bubble?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3XfpYxHKCo

Bitcoin is a thousand times smaller. This is only a bubble of many. I don't believe that the exchanges in China need to fake anything. But to be honest: I don't know and it is a useless discussion.
In the Western world there are not many exchange driven transactions left. And to be honest again: I'm sure.

it's not me who is saying that the chinesse exchangers are faking the data but the Bitcoin's propaganda, Coindesk.

http://www.coindesk.com/reality-chinese-trading-volumes/

Yes, the Bitcoin price is manipulated. is this the first time when you are reading about that? :)

It is frightening to see Bistamp is still inaccessible but it is positive that they take all the time to test their systems.
They are not building back everything despite what the CEO said on twitter because it couldn't be safe to rebuild and code everything in a few days.

They are open for business now :)

Unfortunately I don't have my 2FA device on me now so I can't check if withdrawals are possible.

reports are the withdrawals are coming through

They were probably "just" hacked of 19 000 BTC and they held enough bitcoins in cold storage.

The Bitcoin they have, it is not the Bitstamp's asset. The funds belongs to their clients.

There will be massive withdrawals. You have to be crazy to keep your funds in Bistamp at least for a while(2-3 months). Why? I am pretty sure they did not fix any bug. They just changed the servers. Smiley

It is impossible(and this can be certified by any programmer) to identify a hack in a financial platform in 3-4 days, to fix it and then to setup a new server and so on..

You don't know how they covered the loss. And for the hack it really depends on what happened, it may be easy to identify... Again we need more information. One thing is certain, I've never seen a exchange handling a hack that well.

You are wrong. They changed their hot wallet to use multi-sig. Everyone withdrawing can see this and it has already been reported multiple times.

They have pulled 10,000 from their cold wallet:

https://blockchain.info/address/1JoktQJhCzuCQkt3GnQ8Xddcq4mUgNyXEa

On the face of it seems to be enough at the moment. I can't see any bank run.

The bug was/IS in their platform. It doesn't matter how many signatures they are using. :)

If what they said is true and there is nothing more hidden, they handled it very well and bitstamp seems very safe. But it's a new company and the fact they lost 19 000 BTC is not a good news about their systems and security. There must be a way to almost guarantee you won't loose 19 000 BTC.

I would like it if they would sign a cold wallet and put the address on bitstamp.net saying it's the customers funds.

Well, it's pretty much guaranteed at this point that they still control this (https://blockchain.info/address/1JoktQJhCzuCQkt3GnQ8Xddcq4mUgNyXEa) cold wallet address.

But it seems their hot wallet (https://blockchain.info/address/36mwH1Jg3AMVsEQqVaDSe9YFBTGebaHR1A) has run dry and is not getting refilled in a timely manner, which bothers me.

Edit: Hot wallet getting refilled with 5000 coins just now.

I posted on here almost a year ago that bitstamp was just a government honeypot and that it was only a matter a time before they ran off with people's coins.

Like 99% of the time - I was right.

 :D

Wow , you're dumb as a rock arent you?

Always assume your platform is compromised. What matters is what data can be stolen....., meaningless data? Mutisig wallet would allow them using a third device to sign tx.

You are smart, I admit that. Please do not read further. :)

If you think that the users details(passports, user accounts, utility bills, addresses, bank accounts) are meaningless data, it ok. You are the smart one and you know better. :)

Keep proving everyone that you're the dumbest of all here?

What makes you think such data is stored online? Yes you can submit those data online, it does not mean they will be stored online once they're processed. You got dumber everytime you post dont you?

You are right but they never said it was stored offline either.

Please try to learn a little bit about how the data bases are working. Your language shows that you have a "Bronx" school....but you still have to time to do it, grandpa.... :)

Bitstamp has databases which are online. Each of their clients has an account which contains name, address, email, bank account, etc....so, everything MUST be online otherwise you won't be able to login. These data bases were compromised too, so all the Bitstamp's clients must be worried about their personal details.

I am sure that you won't understand what i am saying, so I will give you some examples to learn from them.

It is not a shame to do it. It is a "shame" to poses as a smart guy when you are not ... :)

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/biggest-data-breaches,news-19083.html

When a "financial" website is hacked, ALL the details are compromised. The hacker stole the Bitstamp' funds for now because this was his main target BUT he had access to ALL the Bitstamp databases.

And it's back up + they have covered all the loss on user sides just like i thought :P

it is not about back up. it is about that the hacker stole ALL the information stored on Bitstamp's server.

well, maybe you don't care about your personal information(you should because it is about your life, money) but there are many others who do....:)

What are you talking about? They stole hot wallet funds nothing more afaik.

how did they stole the "hot wallet" funds? did they guess the password? :)

And for what would they need customer infos when they got away with 19k coins? lol

for getting more funds, of course..and they will.
The peoples are greedy and also they want to make more if they are more than 5-6 hackers. The girls are expensive these days :)

Also, a Mercedes S class is 120K + a nice house is over 500K + other expenses...and you will see that the funds will not be enough to live :))

I don't think Bitstamp will explain exactly how they did it. Maybe a combination of malware, inside informations and weak procedures.
The potential amount to steal is so big they could have invest money to get a chance to steal by buying up informations or coming to the bitstamp offices to steal the money.

agree with you.
malware = access to all the information including customer's details.

Their clients will receive a direct impact very soon. they have to change their passwords for emails, Bitstamp account, Bitcoin, etc.
Too bad they cannot change their passports, utility bills, bank accounts. Identity theft was the most prevalent problem plaguing consumers in 2014.

Well, sooner or later we will see, i personaly belive the person was so excited they took the coins and ran.
Also i don't think it was malware, well who knows.

These persons are not SO excited. It's their "job" :)

Of course, 5 MIL is a VERY high amount but if there is more than 3-4 persons they will want more :)

I doubt it was more than 1 person, wich hacker cooperates with others lol, makes the risk higher.

They provide free fee trading for a few time

They will be more serious this time to make more competent exchanger

They have just confirmed my fiat withdrawal, I'll report back once I have the money on my bank account :)

Be happy for that :)

keep your money in bank and do not buy soon. the price will fall under 190 USD soon.

Super tight spreads aren't uncommon in forex trading where fierce competition between retail FX participants is the norm. Also, compared to traditional financial companies, overall transaction costs are probably lower as it only costs a couple of cents to send/receive any amount of BTC to/from anywhere in the world in minutes. So with the lower fees, lower overhead costs, and lack of middlemen, I think it would be possible for an exchange to make a profit by just trading and withdrawal fees alone.

Even when Mt. Gox had 800,000 BTC (worth almost $1 billion in late 2013), it was still a pretty small-sized company. Their expenses probably weren't that much compared to more traditional financial companies that deal with similar amounts of money. Scottrade has 4,000 employees and GAIN has about 400. A Bitcoin exchange would have, what? 5? 10? Maybe 20 tops?

The forex market is HUGE. A LOT of people are playing in it(including BIG banks). You cannot compare Bitcoin market with 1 MIL users with the forex market.

MT Gox had ONE full time employee and 3-4 part time contractors(for customer support-tickets). Try to not believe everything these guys are trying to show "you". They are small companies not corporations.

It's not something bad to be a small company. It's absolutely normal to have a small and cosy office when you run an exchanger... but these people wants bling-bling. They want to be like Trump or Zuckerberg overnight  :)

The bad thing is when you want to be what they are not... :)


You said "Mt. Gox had 800,000 BTC (worth almost $1 billion)". Let's say you have this Bitcoin. Who is will give you the money if you would have 1 billion worth of Bitcoin? Coinbase? Bitstamp, BTC-China? :)

Yes, nobody. because they do not have these money. But if you want to withdraw a billion from a real forex company, you will get it ASAP. :)

If you want to cash out 10% of all $ or any companies shares on the market, it will not be easy though.

Bitstamp will be forced to sell its Bitcoin due the price falling.

Let's see who will buy it :)

Why would they need to sell their bitcoins? They don't need to sell the bitcoins of their customers and they get cash from people buying btc which they use to pay their costs.

do you really think that a big exchanger will stay to look how the price is falling without selling his Bitcoin? It must be very stupid if he acts like that.

I mean, let's say that I have 100,000 BTC and i see the price is going down to 1 BTC = 100 USD and I know it won't recover overnight (not even in months)...what do you think that I will do ? I will SELL.  Why?
You can never know what it can happen with Bitcoin. Maybe a big exchanger will be closed, maybe a big miner is closed too...the price can be down for month-years.

Also, a big exchanger cannot have too many options if he wants to sell. He must go to one of his competitors which can or cannot have a large amount of money available for a sell of 100K BTC. :)

100k x 230 USD = 23 MIL USD

100K BTC x 100 USD = 10 MIL

would you throw away 13 MIL USD just because you believe in Bitcoin?  ;D ;D ;D

These big exchangers are not fools. they care about their pockets alot(it is something normal). Who would not?

It's about business here not about Bitcoin bla bla... :)

Trading with customers funds is a shame, but that is the price without Regulation.
Banks did the same shit.

GOX did it, bitstamp did it, and others fucked up. They operate on a ponzi and fake trades. We need exchange audits and laws to prevent these suckers to dabble with customer coins.

wait so is bitstamp now not safe anymore?

Isnt that a similar mt.gox scenario? there was a site for people to sell their gox coins or something.

Theres people who believe exchanges will come back after a major mistake, despite what happened.

so do you think bitstamp will recover from this at all or no? we dont have anymore exchanges left besides btc-e and that site is horrible.

bitfinex, localbitcoins...

Bitstamp seems fine since 19 000 was only a small portion of their holdings.

I just received my bank wire today   :) :) :)

The price could be lower on bitstamp because people that want to withdraw fiat prefer to do it on bitstamp than other exchanges.

hard to say theyre fine when they just lost 5.2 million dollars due to most likely due to  lazy security
its not gox but its not chicken feed either

I agree we don't know yet if they are fine and 19 000 BTC is a large percentage of their equity.

As long as they have enough reserves to cover all of their customers' deposits then they will survive. They will obviously take a short term hit to profits and will likely take a medium term hit to revenue as customers use them less as an exchange however they will likely survive over the long run

Bitstamp is the only exchange that i have a verified account with. Would sending a usd deposit there not be a good idea? has idea done so recently?

they have sense reopened and have claimed that all customer money is safe. I personally would not trust them for at least a few months.

If you must buy bitcoin then to a local trade or trading with someone on the forum would probably be a safier bet....as long as you use escrow and/or trade with someone trusted

I agree they will be fine if it was indeed only a 19 000 BTC hack and they still have more than the customers deposits.