Bitcoin Forum

With respect to the oldest and most ranked members of the bitcoin community: PLEASE STOP TELLING LIES ABOUT BITCOIN.

Even a ten year old kid could say that: "BITCOIN WILL NEVER BE A CURRENCY". But that's the truth, like it or not. The reason is the same as always, BITCOIN VALUE IS TOO VOLATILE. Then, most "experts" say that the volatility will decrease as the adoption grows.

HUGE LIE! The content of this quote is simply contradictory, see it: "If there's mass adoption, then<>volatility will decrease". But the fact is that MASS ADOPTION WILL NOT COME with actual volatility. Then, the content of the quote is contradictory and doesn't make sense. Some people believe in god, others belive in bitcoin as a currency.

Like it or not, any currency needs a stable value to work. And bitcoin will never be able to do it, because IT'S NOT DESIGNED FOR THAT. If satoshi really wanted to create an alternative to the actual banking system, he/she wouldn't have created a deflationary currency. A limited supply and USEFUL thing like BITCOIN, versus an exponential growing dollar, make a perfect combination for a BIG SPECULATIVE ASSET.

The problem is that, as a speculative asset, it's controlled mainly by speculators, whose are interested in high volatilities. This high volatility scares the mass, and without their support, bitcoin will not be a currency. I won't be able to buy oranges, computers or houses with them, because people will not accept this what they call "scam".

The only solution would be to drive out the speculators of the market, but that's simply IMPOSSIBLE.

Bitcoin blockchain technology is amazing and key for the future transactions, the problem is BITCOIN distribution and value process, it's not designed to be a currency.  

So please stop telling lies and impossible dreams, let's say the truth together and EVOLVE!
      

You're looking at such a narrow field of view that it's impossible to make an informed decision.

Look at the reasons behind the volatility, it's not as simple as "speculators." When mining switched from CPU only to GPU, and then ASIC, it opened up a door for massive ROI in fewer hands. This peaked interest, and encouraged speculation.

Now the mining bubble is collapsing, and mining will become more decentralized again. Unless something else comes along to give a grossly disproportionate hashrate, the market will have no choice but to calm down...

This was more of a Bitcoin "gold rush" than anything, and the type of speculation we witnessed would occur with just about any other asset on the open market when people get that gold rush mentality...

Don't bother, OP.  I've already tried one of these 'reality' threads.  And only one taker.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=925405.0


Either shill or have valid arguments completely ignored. That's an order, private!

Many of us are fairly confident that Bitcoin is evolving into a revolutionary platform that will change so many different things in our world.  The scope of what Bitcoin can accomplish is really quite mind boggling.  Yes it could be another altcoin of some sort that takes off, but that becomes less and less likely as Bitcoin gains traction.  

I am still surprised when I see how many naysayers are out there still posting threads like this.  Obviously they haven't really thought through what the Blockchain offers in just providing a world-wide ledger of transactions taking place.  Bitcoin as a "currency" or even a speculative tool is only a very small part of what it is.  Of course that is what most of us are focusing on right now.  It is hard not too.  But I guess it takes the ability to think beyond what we can see at the present.  It takes people who are capable of being visionary to really "get it" though.

Once Bitcoin does "evolve" into what it is going to become in the future it will become more apparent that we are so early in this.  We should expect, even welcome, the volatility.  It is just part of the growth process. The small piece of the pie that we own can only become more valuable as there is just a limited supply of coins to go around.  We need to keep this in mind.  

Your premises are flawed. Very little of what you wrote can be substantiated by facts. You need to show some supporting evidence before you can claim that others are lying.

Like it or not, that is not a fact. Since your entire argument is based on this supposed fact, you will need to prove it before anyone can accept your conclusion.


Your claim that "it's not designed for that" is simply not sufficient to support either statement.

More unsubstantiated claims and speculation.

Is that the "only" solution to the supposed problem, or is it the only one that you can think of? Maybe a smarter person could come up with a good solution to your non-existent problem.

Oh, now it's a problem of distribution! The complaining about early adopters has been going on for years now and it is totally bogus.

The currency design itself seems honest. The people running early services less so. I guess we're in a process of learning how much we need humans to trust each other - or not - in this century.

The big problem in my view is the still tech know-how you absoletely need to ave if you want to do anything with bitcoin. Bitcoin needs the killer ap, to which people without tech interest can simply tranfer money to whoever they like, just like a banking app.

What's also a big problem is the so called btc whales, not the investors, but the innovators. They use their Bitcoin for all sorts of twisted things, instead of just investing to get bitcoin to a higher level. It's all about greed, just like the fail of communism, the system is perfect, yet man isn't...

One day, I would like one of you Don Quixotes to actually name a "whale", and show how they used "their Bitcoin for all sorts of twisted things". I doubt it will ever happen because I doubt that these Dr. Evil's exist.

I mean the starting of mining ponzi's, btc dice sites, all ways to make more money, at the expensive of starters in bitcoin, in stead of building a community... many people who were interested, are now for ever turned of on a decentralized crypto, ones banks will launch it, bye bye decentralized...

That's a natural part of every economy... Name a single economy which exists without bad actors?

BTC is still so new that it's entire life span can be viewed on a 1w chart with a clear resolution... It's too soon to start the witch trials...

He can state its not designed to be stable because its inelastic.  Elasticity requires the currency to be created AND destroyed.  Because theres no central bank the increase of supply is on a fixed schedule and not responding to business cycles.  That is a fact

That is not a bad argument, however it is easily countered. Adding another variable (in this case, a central bank) does not automatically make a system stable. Although the purpose of a central bank is to make the currency more stable, it is also a fact that central banks have not succeeded (for a variety of reasons) in maintaining stable currencies.

I'm not sure about bitcoin as a currency, but the blockchain technology will survive!

There are so much applications besides payment, it's a huge evolution!

I don't know if it's a currency or not, but I get paid in Bitcoin and I buy things with Bitcoin.

What should I call it instead of a currency?

Speculators are a fact of life if the asset should hold any value. We should thank traders for assisting in price discovery and providing liquidity to the exchanges so you and I can buy and sell BTC when we'd like. ;)

This is a very misguided notion, regarding to bitcoin....

How do speculators not provide price discovery and liquidity?

If you mean manipulation and dumping/pumping, then yes offcourse. Yet this is illigal in any market, except bitcoin....

Its not possible to argue definitively whether Central Bank policies have or have not made currencies stable.  I welcome you to argue they have not succeeded.  But the mechanism is there for them to try.  Economies go from stability to instability as a natural cycle.  Without a counter cyclical mechanism in place you are at the mercy of economic forces. 

Private money does exist but its not useful if the majority don't use it. 

Man why it's so difficult to understand!!?? I'm surprised to see all these "experts" trying to justify a BIG LIE.


Look, if you want to fight the evil central banking system and be an alternative for payments, why just don't do that?:

Create a descentralized system with unlimited coins at 1$ fixed value that ASSURES that new coins will only be created when X fiat enter, and be destroyed when are exchanged for fiat. I know it has to be very complicated because of the bureocratic fiat control. But if you want to be a REAL alternative, this is the way where investigate.

Just imagine that appears this X coin, BTC would be a simply speculation asset, as it's designed to be.

The funny point is that behind the justifications of limited supply there's the "gold convertible" economic system desire. Still don't understand why so many people believe a deflationary currency it's better. Inflation has the danger to descontrol with bad practics like now, but it's good for the progress, cause obligates human to EVOLVE.                     

Not useful to who? The people who use it?

I use Bitcoin all the time. Are you telling me it is not useful to me?

You wouldn't need so many words if you just followed the Keynesian mantra on Bitcoin:

"I like the technology of the blockchain, just not Bitcoin."

You may also want to try Freicoin. It does what you want and is a total and utter failure.

So what your saying is that your baseless guesses are true and anyone who knows better is a lair?
Bitcoin most certainly is a currency and was designed to be one. Parse it however you wish, but I use it to buy things because me and the seller are using it as a currency.

Mass adoption is here. I see it all over the world now when I travel. Tens of thousands of businesses use it, including some of the largest companies. and the list grows every day.

And your solutions to problems like speculation address non-problems. There are no rules for how to use bitcoin, unlike dollars these are yours and you can spend, invest, or squander them as you like. Bitcoin does not need our help. It is what it is, a currency.

Are you talking about the communist theory that if humans are subject to socialism for long enough, then we will evolve to the point where nobody will be greedy?

I wish humans would evolve to the point where nobody would ever use force, but I'm not going to hold my breath or subject someone to a system that they do not want to be a part of in order to achieve that.

"Digital Gold" is not entirely accurate, but it sounds really good.
Bitcoin is better than currency, but what is it?   :)

Stability means no change in the value of the currency in both the long and short term. As you wrote, it is not possible to know if they have succeeded or failed in short-term stability, but the Fed for example, has definitively failed in the long term, which is arguably the easier of the two.

The central bank is intended to be a counter-cyclical mechanism, but in reality it can just be another source of instability. See "The Pretence of Knowledge", F. A. Hayek.

Why do you say they failed in the long term if they keep rates along with inflation?  There target is 3-4% inflation so you can only say they are failing when they lag or exceed inflation targets

Stability doesn't mean flat or equilibrium.  Stability means not volatile

Not useful to the majority 99.9% of people.  Therefore you are in the minority

Fly you are so ridiculous. What is tens of thousands when we are talking about millions of business?! What I'm saying it's not my opinion nor my desire, it's the fucking true and you got in front of you. If you don't agree, just try to explain me how the fuck a deflationary descentralized "currency" will stabilize it's value without help of anyone. The post was to know opinions of "experts", but looking these free bullshits it's a waste of time.

PD: Call me when BITCOIN has a stable value of +-3% average monthly variation. I bet my balls you'll never call me. :-*  

We all know the weaknesses so we just have to solve it. And solve by means of encouraging adoption which anybody can do. I'm not saying it will be 100pct accurate conclusion that with higher adoption this will solve the volatility issue. But we will a chance and definitely a higher probability

The most obvious truth, some bitcoiner use bitcoin to get more profit in fiat currency
So, they always sell when the price is high & that's why bitcoin price always stuck

Fiat is very unstable; Bitcoin is predictable and inspires confidence in intelligent users.

https://i.imgur.com/DNzOQF4.jpg

Capital, in its most superior form, is something that can be liquidated quickly into anything at anywhere in the world, without relying on any third party or risking of being restricted or confiscated by authorities. So far bitcoin is on the right track to become such kind of premium asset, and it will gain momentum as the currency war and financial turbulence is escalating around the world

   Maybe this has already been brought up and the discussion is over my head but,

A) you don't need to hold bitcoin to use bitcoin. Third party services are competing to offer the efficiency gains of bitcoin without the risk to the laypeople. This applies to retail, wholesale, and services. Patience.

B) volatility means some people are making money. As long as there is money to be made more speculators will be entering the market in favor of other, harder to manipulate markets.


C) Both of the above ensure increasing adoption, which will lead to greater stability.


However, look at the volatility of the oil market- the market is huge, and has still seen swings of over 50% in the last five years. However, oil provides real utility to both users and producers, which is why people use it in spite of price volatility. Bitcoin also provides real utility. In countries with low labor costs, the difference between using manual labor and machines could benas little as a few tenths of a percent, but in a competitive environment, this cannot be ignored. Fluctuations in the oil price have to be factored into this. In the oil market, just as in bitcoin, price swings in either direction leave winners and losers. Your problem may be with the nature of markets, which are a reflection of human nature, rather than bitcoin. I completely understand this sentiment, but I think it is just that it is more visible due to bitcoins high velocity.


 Sparrows and mountains move differently, due to different levels of mass, but both are moving. We are better able to perceive the movement of sparrows due to our short lifespans, but the mountains are moving, growing, and being worn down none the less. A little study of the traces of their history provides ample evidence.

   I

What do I care of the majority? The majority voted for Barack Obama, the majority spends money at Starbucks.

I can use Bitcoin to buy things that I need. I can get paid in Bitcoin. That is all I need. As long as all of the services that exist right now do not go away, I can survive on Bitcoin with no need for centralized, government controlled fiat. We have reached that point. And new services pop up every day, like being able to use Bitcoin on ebay.

currency:
 noun, plural currencies.
1. something that is used as a medium of exchange

None of the existing currencies is used by majority (>50%) of people.

You either got the your definition of 'currency' wrong, or there is no such thing as 'currency'.

you get a fantastic point, bitcoin is not and will not be a currency.
Then what?
Does it mean that bitcoin doesn't exist or do not have value?  NO
Does it mean bitcoin can't be used to buy things ? NO
It is used, and it has very useful innovation
So call it the way you want, we do not care :)

BTW sorry for your big desillusion ...
You have good imagination, the 1$coin is a amazing one, really. i would love to own some. Thing is, it doesn't exist and i belive it never will.
Before bitcoin i tought bitcoin like project was impossible too so make me change my mind, PLEASE!

It is true that a widespread adoption may lead to a decrease volatility in price as most people use bitcoin as a form of "currency" in their everyday lives. But bitcoin will--yep you're right--never be a currency because it is designed to have a limited supply vs the exponential minting of the dollar which can be used by most of the people around the globe.

You don't want to spend 0.0000012 on a hamburger, do you?

Why would I not want to spend 1.20 bits on a burger?

http://uploads.neatorama.com/images/posts/636/71/71636/1398913523-2.jpg

Bahahaha.  Bitcoin liquid?  Are you shitting me?  More lies from pumpers

You can probably convert 150M JPY to 1.5M USD with no effect to the JPY/USD price.  I know cause my company did this 2 years ago.  Good luck trying that w bitcoins.

bitcoin amazing transaction virtual money . witout phsyic and incredible fee

A currency doesn't get its price from speculators (alone).  It gets its price ESSENTIALLY from the demand for the currency to be able to buy stuff with. 
Most fiat money is worth what it is, not because of FX traders, but because people use it every day to get paid in, and to buy their groceries with.  That installs a demand for the currency, which determines its scarcity and hence its price.

The "stability of a currency" is in fact very problematic.  Of course, a currency that is used a lot gains stability, because of the "stickyness of prices".  People get used to prices, and if prices are suddenly very different, they tend to adapt their buying habits as a function of this differential, rather than doing an updated full market study each time.
That is, if you think a bread should cost about $1.-, and you suddenly see a bread at $5.-, you will probably not buy it (and you will think of the bakery as a thief).  If you think that a modest car should cost about $ 15 000.-, then if one presents you a modest car for $ 50 000.- you will not buy it.  On the other hand, if you see an "opportunity" to buy a modest car for $ 6000.-, you may "jump on the occasion" even though you were not considering buying a new car any soon.

The more people have prices in mind, the less daily volatility is possible, because people would buy more at lower prices, and buy less at higher prices.  Wages are also such a thing.  They are contractually established.  Your boss cannot just walk in and tell you that this month, he will only pay half of your usual salary.  He won't walk in, and you will not get nervous, because next month, he's not paying the double.

So usage, and psychological stickyness of prices, stabilise money on the short term.

On the longer term, central banks try to stabilise (well, to inflate slightly) the *consumer price index*.  However, in doing so, these central banks forget that prices are market signals.  There can very well be market forces that would change the consumer price index basket value with respect to other assets.  By trying to stabilise/inflate the consumer price index, central banks are sometimes obliged to inflate LARGELY other assets, like stock, housing prices, and other things.

Moreover, as increased economic productivity should normally DEFLATE the consumer price index, the slight inflation that central banks want to establish can be hugely inflationary without people noticing.  

It is interesting to see that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation#mediaviewer/File:US_Historical_Inflation_Ancient.svg average inflation was compensated with deflation historically, as long as there was a sound money principle (essentially a precious metal standard).  When central banks really kicked in, we only got inflation.

As central banks, just like any other human endeavour, is ill informed, based upon human action, and must guess what will happen, in fact, central banks are usually *just as wrong* as any other economic agent in knowing where the economy is heading.  By giving them more power, they are then just as well causing cycles.  They are causing OTHER cycles than the "free running dynamics", but they cause cycles by their misconceptions just as well as the "natural" business cycles. 

I agree with you.  Doctors also make wrong diagnosis sometimes and CEO's make wrong business decisions.  That's just the infallibility of humans acting on imperfect knowledge.  Doesn't mean we should discard all doctors & CEOs.  To the credit of Central Banks when they see that they are wrong they do revise policy.  For example, ECB revised their policy on austerity