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Other => Politics & Society => Topic started by: Chef Ramsay on January 17, 2015, 01:50:27 AM



Title: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Chef Ramsay on January 17, 2015, 01:50:27 AM
Quote
Setting the stage for its most significant ruling ever on gay rights, the U.S. Supreme Court said Friday it would resolve the state-by-state battle over same-sex marriage.

The justices said they will decide cases from Michigan, Kentucky, Ohio and Tennessee, where state officials are defending laws that limit marriage to a man and a woman.

The high court is expected to hear arguments in late April and will probably issue a decision by the end of June.

The case could lead to a landmark ruling on whether gay and lesbian couples have a right to marry nationwide under constitutional protections for individual rights and equal treatment.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-supreme-court-gay-marriage-20150116-story.html#page=1 (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-supreme-court-gay-marriage-20150116-story.html#page=1)

Predictions or bets?


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: TheButterZone on January 17, 2015, 02:07:25 AM
Lower courts will continue to rebel with bullshit like "[SCOTUS] will need to say so more plainly".


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: pungopete468 on January 17, 2015, 02:30:00 AM
Marriage isn't protected by the Constitution; it's the religious aspect and statement of marriage that is protected.

The SCOTUS will likely view marriage as a statement, or in other words an expression. Marriage will be a protected form of free speech, and the government will be forced to recognize it as such by issuing marriage licenses to any two people who request one.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Chef Ramsay on January 17, 2015, 03:12:02 AM
Theoretically per the constitution, there is no federal power to deal with such an issue like marriage which imo, shouldn't be allowed between any number of people but only recognized by those that choose to. However, the founding document is meaningless in many instances so oh well. There should be no government marriage licenses and people should just contract with each other on their own and steer clear of community pockets that don't take kindly to their arrangements.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: grendel25 on January 17, 2015, 06:49:30 AM
Yes, it took conflict of lower courts to force the hand of the US Supreme Court.  Have you heard them discuss this sort of thing in the past?  Asking questions like where do you draw the line on what's and acceptable relationship or what can be considered a marriage.  They overcomplicate it.  In a way it seems like a no brainer slam dunk in favor of human rights but who knows.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: username18333 on January 17, 2015, 07:12:24 AM
Quote from: Leo Tolstoy, Tolstoy (1988) by A. N. Wilson, p. 146. link=http://izquotes.com/quote/273222
The truth is that the State is a conspiracy designed not only to exploit, but above all to corrupt its citizens… Henceforth, I shall never serve any government anywhere.

State, opting to print less bread, has introduced another act (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/circus).


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: BitCoinNutJob on January 17, 2015, 10:07:14 AM

I love how the gov wants to get involved in people's relationships like a jealous ex partner or something. 


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Rishblitz on January 17, 2015, 07:16:15 PM
why does the government have to get in peoples business just let people believe what they want to.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: TECSHARE on January 17, 2015, 08:23:54 PM
The government should have no involvement in marriage period, including heterosexual marriages.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Rishblitz on January 18, 2015, 02:53:06 AM
The government should have no involvement in marriage period, including heterosexual marriages.

what happened to separation of the church and state yet the state can force a church to wed someone if they want to or not.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Chef Ramsay on January 18, 2015, 04:03:29 AM
This is yet one faction lobbying the state against another faction that has used the state to keep the former down for a long time. The end result is that the state is the one calling the shots and not private associations of voluntary contracting individuals. The statists (social conservatives in this instance) will likely see the power of the state bear down on them as the baton changes hands as was expected after a generational societal shift. Live by the state's sword for a while, then get stuck with it. I'm at the point where this particular vestige of religious freedom (not having to acknowledge gay marriage) isn't at the top of my list and is basically the rooster coming home to roost because you went to bed with vultures (the state) for so long and now times have changed and you're on the outs. On one hand, I think the LGB community has gone too far at times but you can hardly blame them for bringing out the so-called knives against a bunch (evangelicals, socons, etc) that have targeted them for far too long. As it is, most of the latter are one or two issue voters and their main mea culpa in recent times has been the gay community. So, in the end, liberty rises and falls because those that sought it used the state to be their protector.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Rishblitz on January 18, 2015, 06:52:23 AM
This is yet one faction lobbying the state against another faction that has used the state to keep the former down for a long time. The end result is that the state is the one calling the shots and not private associations of voluntary contracting individuals. The statists (social conservatives in this instance) will likely see the power of the state bear down on them as the baton changes hands as was expected after a generational societal shift. Live by the state's sword for a while, then get stuck with it. I'm at the point where this particular vestige of religious freedom (not having to acknowledge gay marriage) isn't at the top of my list and is basically the rooster coming home to roost because you went to bed with vultures (the state) for so long and now times have changed and you're on the outs. On one hand, I think the LGB community has gone too far at times but you can hardly blame them for bringing out the so-called knives against a bunch (evangelicals, socons, etc) that have targeted them for far too long. As it is, most of the latter are one or two issue voters and their main mea culpa in recent times has been the gay community. So, in the end, liberty rises and falls because those that sought it used the state to be their protector.

truer words never spoken before.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: 98problems on January 18, 2015, 08:29:07 AM
I personally think they will likely punt on the issue. Traditionally marriage has been defined as between a man and a women. Sure there are religious aspects to this, however there are also traditional aspects to this.

I personally would like to see the tax benefits of marriage taken away (as well as welfare benefits). If this were to happen I would say that neither side would be anywhere near as passionate about the subject as they are


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Rishblitz on January 18, 2015, 05:56:21 PM
I personally think they will likely punt on the issue. Traditionally marriage has been defined as between a man and a women. Sure there are religious aspects to this, however there are also traditional aspects to this.

I personally would like to see the tax benefits of marriage taken away (as well as welfare benefits). If this were to happen I would say that neither side would be anywhere near as passionate about the subject as they are

I think the pro marriage would still want to keep marriage sacred due to principle.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Razick on January 18, 2015, 07:42:23 PM
Regardless of how you feel about the issue, the Constitution does not give the federal government authority to restrict the states on this matter. The gay marriage debate must be settled by the electorate and their representatives in each state. The courts have no right to engage in judicial activism and overturn our elected officials on this one.

Note that I am saying that the courts can neither force NOR prevent states from adopting their own laws on this issue.

That being said, I have a feeling they will misconstrue the 14th Amendment and ignore the 10th along with the rest of the Constitution. Judicial activism trumps the plain language of the Supreme Law of the Land these days.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: TheButterZone on January 18, 2015, 07:47:36 PM
Any state which ratified the 14th Amendment shouldn't have done so if it wanted to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Razick on January 18, 2015, 08:00:15 PM
Any state which ratified the 14th Amendment shouldn't have done so if it wanted to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Gay marriage is not an equal protection of the laws issue. That's why I said misconstrue. Restrictions on who you can marry apply to everyone equally, regardless of sexual orientation. If gay marriage is constitutionally protected, so is polygamy and the right to marry a minor. All rights have limits, and in this case those limits apply to everyone equally.

This 14th Amendment was written to prohibit the denial of right to someone because of their race, ethnicity, religion, sex, etc. It was not meant to prohibit restrictions that apply equally to all persons.

The power to regulate marriage is a power of the sovereign states.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: TheButterZone on January 18, 2015, 11:43:41 PM
Polygamy (insofar as all the spouses consent) and minor marriage bans (insofar as there is consent) are absolutely unconstitutional as well, IMO.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/judge-finalizes-ruling-declaring-part-of-utah-polygamy-ban-unconstitutional-lets-man-live-with-his-four-wives-125597/


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Razick on January 19, 2015, 03:48:07 AM
Polygamy (insofar as all the spouses consent) and minor marriage bans (insofar as there is consent) are absolutely unconstitutional as well, IMO.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/judge-finalizes-ruling-declaring-part-of-utah-polygamy-ban-. constitutional-lets-man-live-with-his-four-wives-125597/

The fact is the words in the Constitution don't exist in a vacuum. They have definitions, contexts, and purposes that were obviously intended when they were written. You might be able to make a good argument for legalizing those things (in a way I actually sympathise with you on these things and gay marriage, but I also support limitations on federal government and the proper role of the courts), but that doesn't make them Constitutional. The Constitution says certin thing with defined, unchaning meanings which do not change simply because you think they should.

There is nothing in the Constitution that protects the "right" to marry anyone but a single member of the opposite spouse. In fact, I don't think the Constitution protects marriage at all (the 9th Amendment only prohibits the government from using the Constitution to justify infringing on rights not mentioned.)

I think you may be assuming that since the right to regulate marriage is not enumerated in the Constitution, the government lacks that authority, am I correct? The problem with that argument is that marriage is regulated on a state level, and is therefore not subject to the enumerated powers, which apply only to the federal government.

The power to regulate marriage was never delegated to the federal government in accordance with the 10th amendment, and therefore lies with the states.

Edit: The judge in the case you linked ruled based on religious freedom. First of all, I don't think I agree with him there, but more relevant to this topic is that gay marriage is not a matter of religious freedom.



Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: freedomno1 on January 19, 2015, 04:43:14 AM
Were opening a new can of worms.
In doing so creating another schism in world politics besides the current religious one and for good reason, the US will change its policy to try and force other countries to perceive gay rights as a human right and punish them accordingly for dissent.

In other words they will push the envelope much faster than other countries are willing to take and I see this being an exacerbating global issue in the years to come.

That said it Looks like the gay right fighters will win this one in my opinion

I'll go with Wilkons statement on freedom to dissent
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=929195.msg10201032#msg10201032


It is increasingly clear that the freedom of speech often works only at that bare minimum — protecting us from imprisonment and decapitation by governments, but not from social and economic destruction by our fellow Americans, including government officials.

Take the case of Kelvin Cochran, Atlanta’s former fire chief. Cochran was fired by Mayor Kasim Reed last week after 30 years of service for writing a book on morality, with a passage on homosexuality, in his private time for a Bible study group.

Another mayor who has targeted those with certain beliefs is Houston Mayor Annise Parker, who last October moved to subpoena sermons from pastors who had opposed an ordinance that would make public bathrooms gender-neutral. After a national outcry, Parker backed-off.

Two leading businesspeople have also faced the wrath of the outrage industry. Last year, Mozilla CEO Brendan Eich — who along with 52 percent of California voters backed the pro-marriage Proposition 8 in 2008– was forced to resign over his beliefs.

Memorably in 2012, Chick-fil-A CEO Dan Cathy was the object of public rage for maintaining traditional views on marriage, as well as the target of vindictive mayors Tom Menino of Boston and Rahm Emanuel of Chicago, who threatened to exile his business.

It’s not just public officials who engage in this behavior. Marquette University’s Professor John McAdams was banned from campus for blog posts criticizing fellow faculty member Cheryl Abbate. McAdams criticized Abbate for saying — in a class discussion on controversial ethical issues, at a Catholic university — that “everybody agrees on [gay rights], and there is no need to discuss it.”

Perhaps surprisingly, no punishment has come to Abatte, who told a student, “you don’t have the right in this class to make homophobic comments” — which appear to include any divergence from the LGBT agenda.

The purge continues in the media, where Duck Dynasty’s Phil Robertson was suspended for quoting the Bible on marriage, and the show Flip It Forward was cancelled over the pro-life, pro-family, views of Jason and David Benham.

And the list goes on. Civil suits abound to force Christian bakers, florists, photographers, and chapel operators to implement the new definition of marriage. Religious organizations have been forced to shut-down charitable adoption agencies in light of same-sex “marriage” laws. More recently, our nation’s capital removed religious liberty protections to potentially force religious organizations to pay for abortions, as well as make Catholic schools promote LGBT activities.

In England, couples who hold traditional views are often even deemed unfit to foster or adopt children.

The public crusade for unanimity on controversial issues goes beyond sexuality. Last year, a curiously high number of conservative university commencement speakers were disinvited by angry student bodies over their politics.

The attacks can get quite personal. Questioning climate change (despite the scientific community’s backing away from the “hockey stick,” rethinking the thermal absorbency of the ocean, adjusting 20th century temperature readings, massaging data, making a host of failed predictions, and changing the phenomenon’s very name) is to be dubbed the village idiot. Anything short of fully standing behind the media and government’s particular conceptualization of the campus rape problem is declared to be misogyny, as is suggesting solutions contrary to sexual libertinism. To give the benefit of the doubt to police officers dealing with unruly suspects is racist. And to maintain that marriage is what it was universally considered until 2003 is not only bigotry, but high blasphemy.

Once labeled, offenders face peril in their employment and communities. While the First Amendment does not protect one from private discrimination – government officials like Emanuel, Parker, and Reed may want to check their pocket Constitutions, however — nor does society benefit from targeting those whose opinions are merely politically incorrect or unpopular.

So while events in France have rightly energized all sides to cheer the freedom to express unpopular opinions, the West should take the opportunity to ask whether the bare minimum of not executing those who profess unpopular speech is enough. Indeed, we should consider whether it is not still a violation of fundamental liberties for society to deny its citizens the opportunity to use the breath they have been allowed to keep.

http://hotair.com/archives/2015/01/18/the-silence-of-the-sheep/



Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: TheButterZone on January 19, 2015, 04:59:01 AM
Religious bullshit prohibitions and/or ones without any rational basis, applied to government marriage licensing to everyone except male/female adult couples, are not equal. If states don't want to abide by what they ratified, they are welcome to secede from the union entirely. CA, IL, HI, NY, CT, MA, et al, can secede from the union over refusal to not infringe the 2A they ratified and incorporated in 14A as well.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Razick on January 19, 2015, 10:50:01 PM
Religious bullshit prohibitions and/or ones without any rational basis, applied to government marriage licensing to everyone except male/female adult couples, are not equal. If states don't want to abide by what they ratified, they are welcome to secede from the union entirely. CA, IL, HI, NY, CT, MA, et al, can secede from the union over refusal to not infringe the 2A they ratified and incorporated in 14A as well.

As I explained, the states are not infringing on the 14th amendment. Equality under the law doesn't mean that the law is equally agreeable to every person, it means that every person has the right to be treated the same as another person in the same circumstance. If I am a polling official, I don't need to know your sexual orientation to approve your vote. Every man has the right to marry a woman and every woman the right to marry a man. That is equality under the law according to a plain and clear reading of the 14th Amendment.

By your logic, the states have no right to impose any law that a particular group finds unfavorable. So rich people could say they aren't equal under the law because they pay higher taxes. Should pedophiles have the right to marry a child? (I am not comparing pedophiles to homosexuals, I am only comparing the legal logic). By your logic yes! If I replace "a man not being allowed to marry a man demonstrates that he is not equal with straight men under the law" with "a man not being allowed to marry a child demonstrates that he is not equal with other men under the law," the logic should extend, no?

Likewise, if we look at this from another angle, the amendment was not intended to apply to any group label whatsoever. After all, age is not entirely protected. Why can I not drink alcohol? I disagree with that law, but that's a legislative not a Constitutional issue. I do not have the Constitutional right to drink.

Neither you nor the courts can find proper justification for overruling our elected state officials using a plain and proper reading of the 14th amendment. The amendment's meaning does not change just because you and many others want it to. If you want gay marriage to be protected, get a Constitutional amendment passed or use legislative processes.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: TheButterZone on January 19, 2015, 10:59:47 PM
By your logic, the states have the right to torture a particular class of people as long as it's not defined as punishment. If you want the states to have these absolute rights to do whatever indefensible shit they want to specific classes only, get a Constitutional repeal amendment for the 14th passed.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Lethn on January 19, 2015, 11:22:13 PM
Quote
By your logic, the states have no right to impose any law that a particular group finds unfavorable. So rich people could say they aren't equal under the law because they pay higher taxes. Should pedophiles have the right to marry a child? (I am not comparing pedophiles to homosexuals, I am only comparing the legal logic). By your logic yes! If I replace "a man not being allowed to marry a man demonstrates that he is not equal with straight men under the law" with "a man not being allowed to marry a child demonstrates that he is not equal with other men under the law," the logic should extend, no?

You just did, the moment you bring peadophilia into an argument about homosexuality, you're being a fucking moron. This isn't a case of some particular group being bitchy for no reason, this is as global wide conspiracy by all religions to oppress homosexuals, it's just a fucking contract. Sure, a church can go ahead and declare that marriage between homosexuals isn't legitimate all they like, but they can't go around telling state and government what to do and yes, as someone from the UK I'm going to remind you about your own laws about seperation of church and state, we have the very same problem here where religion is constantly trying to impose it's doctrine on the rest of us.

This 'social' issue is purely an invention of religion, no one else gives a fuck save for a few homophobic cunts and it's about time they got over it and stopped being such pussies, gay marriage has been legalised already in various parts of the world. The world has not descended into chaos, peadophilia and beastality have not suddenly become legal, it's all a load of scare mongering bullshit and there is no real argument you can make against it.

If anything, I would argue that being religious is more likely to lead to peadophilia than being gay, since we all know how much Catholics like their choir boys, yes I fucking went there.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Razick on January 19, 2015, 11:31:12 PM
By your logic, the states have the right to torture a particular class of people as long as it's not defined as punishment. If you want the states to have these absolute rights to do whatever indefensible shit they want to specific classes only, get a Constitutional repeal amendment for the 14th passed.

Actually, none of that is the case by my logic. If the states were to "torture a particular class of people as long as it's not defined as punishment" I would agree with you, but they are not. The only thing the states are doing is not allowing tax benefits/combined assets for marriages that do not meet the legal or societal definition of marriage. Not torture or punishment by any book.

Just as imposing different tax rates on different incomes and rules for different ages isn't " doing whatever indefensible shit they want to specific classes only," neither is banning gay marriage. You keep saying that the 14th says what it doesn't say without refuting my statement that it doesn't. If you want to debate my argument, then defend your point instead of ignoring my argument and reasserting your original position.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: freedomno1 on January 20, 2015, 01:18:09 AM

If anything, I would argue that being religious is more likely to lead to peadophilia than being gay, since we all know how much Catholics like their choir boys, yes I fucking went there.

Na lethn, if we look in the time machine back to Roman and Greek history I'm pretty sure all the Roman teachers and Greek philosophers took the cake and ate it many times before religion got into that trend.
Religion just set them straight ha-ha

By your logic, the states have no right to impose any law that a particular group finds unfavorable. So rich people could say they aren't equal under the law because they pay higher taxes. Should pedophiles have the right to marry a child? (I am not comparing pedophiles to homosexuals, I am only comparing the legal logic). By your logic yes! If I replace "a man not being allowed to marry a man demonstrates that he is not equal with straight men under the law" with "a man not being allowed to marry a child demonstrates that he is not equal with other men under the law," the logic should extend, no?

As for the world descending into chaos, looking at middle east hatred of the west and why they will not ever become like the west is because one of the core tenets and issues of our generation is being challenged here (homosexuality) otherwise we wouldn't be having so many flamewars over it and polarization on both camps, the argument that "no one else gives a fuck save for a few homophobic cunts and it's about time they got over it " is simply untrue it's just that very strong reactionary elements set out to destroy any opposition in the gay camp to quiet any dispute, baker gets prosecuted for wedding cakes, politicians get put under a torch for gay marriage views, heck even traditional hillbillys on tv getting scolded for what was a traditional value, if anything persecution begets persecution.

It's only in the last 10 years that we have seen that attitude changing a little so its debatable at least, but far from a get over it at this point in time.

Still in a fallacy argument to your other point if we let pedophilia become legal, we arguably would see the same result as we have historically society operating normally like it is is now of course there is quantifiable evidence of that, since we only need to look back 100 years or so to see it as a common enough occurrence that was not penalized.

It's only recently in human history that we started having large debates over that particular issue, historically England started the age of consent at age 12 in 1875 and we only have seen that raised to 15-18 very recently by a historical measure.

In fact there have even been arguments for it to go down good old wiki

According to sociologist Matthew Waites, in the 1970s, a number of grass-roots political actions took place in Britain in favor of lowering the age of consent, which he described as based on claims of children's rights, gay liberation, or as a way to avoid unwanted pregnancies or sexually transmitted diseases.

Even the Gay community got in on this reform

In May 1974, the Campaign for Homosexual Equality suggested a basic age of consent of 16, but 12 "in cases where a defendant could prove the existence of meaningful consent".[17][18] In September 1974, the Sexual Law Reform Society proposed lowering the age of consent to 14, with the requirement that below the age of 18 the burden of proof that consent for sexual activities between the parties existed would be the responsibility of the older participant.

Waites, Matthew. The Age of Consent – Young People, Sexuality and Citizenship (2005), pp 122, 132–133, 220).
WAITES, Matthew (2005, op.cit., p.132).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent_reform


This isn't a case of some particular group being bitchy for no reason, this is as global wide conspiracy by all religions to oppress homosexuals, it's just a fucking contract. Sure, a church can go ahead and declare that marriage between homosexuals isn't legitimate all they like, but they can't go around telling state and government what to do.

If anything gay rights has the long history of a value we all agreed upon as something that has been oppressed as you pointed out.
By the same token it's the same gay rights community that is telling the state and government what to do in regards to this issue so its a double sided play.

Apologies for nitpicking looked like a fun debate there anyways it's one of the more interesting issues of our time, we will see how it turns out traditionally major societal changes are due to wars, of course I doubt one issue is enough to ignite a whole flame its usually a conflation of them.

WWI : Had the artists , Wagner German Identity, Development of French Identity, and Superiority over the Russians
WWII: Sort of related
WWIII: Could be a mixture of similar flashpoints like this one either way we live in it so we will see someday for ourselves what happens.

_
Hmm small world reading the communist platform I think Razick Lethn Butter seem to all fit in here  weird
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/home/about-the-cpgb/draft-programme/3.-immediate-demands
_


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: username18333 on January 20, 2015, 01:50:55 AM
According to previous respondents, the views of “the tribe” are only as valid as they are shared (so much so, in fiction (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/postmodernism/#6), that one must employ state to maintain them).


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: freedomno1 on January 20, 2015, 01:55:56 AM
According to previous respondents, the views of “the tribe” are only as valid as they are shared (so much so, in fact, that one must employ state to maintain them).

For some reason when you mention tribes in a gay marriage dispute thread about the Supreme court, I am thinking of the Supreme court judges voting one party off the island unless they find the Tiki (I guess gavel of safety lol)

Darn survivor references, but I guess so opinions are only valid if your willing to share/debate them and not saying anything means nothing happens you take your chances that the outcome is in your favor.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Razick on January 23, 2015, 01:53:07 PM
Quote
By your logic, the states have no right to impose any law that a particular group finds unfavorable. So rich people could say they aren't equal under the law because they pay higher taxes. Should pedophiles have the right to marry a child? (I am not comparing pedophiles to homosexuals, I am only comparing the legal logic). By your logic yes! If I replace "a man not being allowed to marry a man demonstrates that he is not equal with straight men under the law" with "a man not being allowed to marry a child demonstrates that he is not equal with other men under the law," the logic should extend, no?

You just did, the moment you bring peadophilia into an argument about homosexuality, you're being a fucking moron. This isn't a case of some particular group being bitchy for no reason, this is as global wide conspiracy by all religions to oppress homosexuals, it's just a fucking contract. Sure, a church can go ahead and declare that marriage between homosexuals isn't legitimate all they like, but they can't go around telling state and government what to do and yes, as someone from the UK I'm going to remind you about your own laws about seperation of church and state, we have the very same problem here where religion is constantly trying to impose it's doctrine on the rest of us.

This 'social' issue is purely an invention of religion, no one else gives a fuck save for a few homophobic cunts and it's about time they got over it and stopped being such pussies, gay marriage has been legalised already in various parts of the world. The world has not descended into chaos, peadophilia and beastality have not suddenly become legal, it's all a load of scare mongering bullshit and there is no real argument you can make against it.

If anything, I would argue that being religious is more likely to lead to peadophilia than being gay, since we all know how much Catholics like their choir boys, yes I fucking went there.

Sorry for missing your post. There is only one argument here worth adressing, and that is the one regarding seperation of church and state. First of all, seperation of church and state does not prohibit religious influences of government, only church control of government and government regulation or funding of the church. Secondly, seperation of church and state is a misinterpretation of the first amendment. This is what is really says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free excercise thereof." That's all it says.

The thing to understand about the US is that we, theoretically, have rule of law. If you don't like the Constitution, change it. Otherwise, that's too bad. You can swear at me all you want, it doesn't suddenly undo the US Constitution.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Razick on January 23, 2015, 02:02:20 PM
Freedomno made a good point.

I was actually fairly sympathetic to pushes for anti-discrimination laws for gays, until they started being abused. Just a few months after passing one in Houston, a baker was sued for refusing to make a cake that said "Support Gay Marriage." What about his freedom of concience? On one hand, I don't think McDonalds should be able to refuse to serve someone just because they are gay, but I do think they should be allowed to ban a gay pride party on their property.

The gay "rights" movement is so unforgiving and darn near oppresive to anyone who holds different views right now. The CEO of Mozilla was fired for a private political donation he made over 10 years ago, seriously? What about his freedom of speech? It's worth noting that this changed my mind about campaign transparency laws requiring that donor lists be public. I now entirely oppose them.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: jaysabi on January 23, 2015, 05:24:21 PM
The government should have no involvement in marriage period, including heterosexual marriages.

what happened to separation of the church and state yet the state can force a church to wed someone if they want to or not.

This has nothing to do with forcing any church to wed anyone. It applies to instances in which states issue a marriage license.

I agree the state should not be in the business of regulating marriage, but if it's going to go that route, equal protection under the law means anyone can marry whatever gender they want. For red states that don't like that, stop issuing marriage licenses.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Rishblitz on January 24, 2015, 12:59:02 AM
By your logic, the states have the right to torture a particular class of people as long as it's not defined as punishment. If you want the states to have these absolute rights to do whatever indefensible shit they want to specific classes only, get a Constitutional repeal amendment for the 14th passed.

the national government has been doing that for years against terrorist


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Rishblitz on January 24, 2015, 01:00:14 AM
Freedomno made a good point.

I was actually fairly sympathetic to pushes for anti-discrimination laws for gays, until they started being abused. Just a few months after passing one in Houston, a baker was sued for refusing to make a cake that said "Support Gay Marriage." What about his freedom of concience? On one hand, I don't think McDonalds should be able to refuse to serve someone just because they are gay, but I do think they should be allowed to ban a gay pride party on their property.

The gay "rights" movement is so unforgiving and darn near oppresive to anyone who holds different views right now. The CEO of Mozilla was fired for a private political donation he made over 10 years ago, seriously? What about his freedom of speech? It's worth noting that this changed my mind about campaign transparency laws requiring that donor lists be public. I now entirely oppose them.

do you have a link to that article sounds interesting.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: TheButterZone on January 24, 2015, 01:09:32 AM
By your logic, the states have the right to torture a particular class of people as long as it's not defined as punishment. If you want the states to have these absolute rights to do whatever indefensible shit they want to specific classes only, get a Constitutional repeal amendment for the 14th passed.

the national government has been doing that for years against terrorist

2 wrongs don't make a right.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: Rishblitz on January 24, 2015, 01:25:54 AM
By your logic, the states have the right to torture a particular class of people as long as it's not defined as punishment. If you want the states to have these absolute rights to do whatever indefensible shit they want to specific classes only, get a Constitutional repeal amendment for the 14th passed.

the national government has been doing that for years against terrorist

2 wrongs don't make a right.

I didn't say they are right in fact I am strongly against it I was just pointing it out though.


Title: Re: Finally: US Supreme Court agrees to settle gay marriage dispute
Post by: freedomno1 on January 26, 2015, 02:25:16 AM
Freedomno made a good point.

I was actually fairly sympathetic to pushes for anti-discrimination laws for gays, until they started being abused. Just a few months after passing one in Houston, a baker was sued for refusing to make a cake that said "Support Gay Marriage." What about his freedom of concience? On one hand, I don't think McDonalds should be able to refuse to serve someone just because they are gay, but I do think they should be allowed to ban a gay pride party on their property.

The gay "rights" movement is so unforgiving and darn near oppresive to anyone who holds different views right now. The CEO of Mozilla was fired for a private political donation he made over 10 years ago, seriously? What about his freedom of speech? It's worth noting that this changed my mind about campaign transparency laws requiring that donor lists be public. I now entirely oppose them.

do you have a link to that article sounds interesting.

Sure it was one of the major talking points in Politics and Society a while back we like to talk about these things

For Mozilla
http://www.cnet.com/news/eich-resignation-as-mozilla-ceo-as-messy-as-his-appointment/

Related Bitcointalk topic
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=556419.0

In regards to the Cake there were a few on that I'll use one of mine since the search function is still disabled

For Bakers
Video of his position
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/embed/video/1133730.html

"We don't want to be forced to promote a cause that is against our beliefs, we should have the freedom to decline an order that is against our conscience"

The video is worth a watch

Article
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/06/03/baker-forced-to-make-gay-wedding-cakes-undergo-sensitivity-training-after/

Related Bitcointalk topics
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=854351.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=923710.0


_
To link back to a joke I forgot to put in the other post
Equality for everyone except Nambla from Southpark
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartman_Joins_NAMBLA

They have quite a complex relationship with the LGBT community with Harry Hays a founder of the gay rights community working with them back in the 1980's they ditched them because they thought it would make them look bad, so pederasty and gay rights are related (Historical footnotes)