Bitcoin Forum

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9370376/Man-22-who-died-from-dehydration-in-hospital-rang-police-for-a-drink-of-water.html

Non socialized Medicine:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/30/woman-thrown-out-missouri-hospital-for-trespassing-dies-in-jail-from-blood/

It's noteworthy that "non-socialized medicine" in the developed world is an oxymoron.

Even in the United States, where the majority delude themselves that they don't use socialized medicine, in reality they do.

Employer-based, group insurance is socialized medicine, because the employees as a group pay for a substantial portion of the healthcare of the sick members of the employee group...

The vast American military operates fully socialized medicine. The overwhelming majority of American senior citizens use socialized medicine.

A great deal of government (socialized) subsidies are provided for all kinds of medical research, hospitals and clinics...

The majority of the US medical personnel received some sort of government/socialized subsidies in the form of socially-subsidized student loans and grants they never have to repay to society...

The medical professionals who come to America from "socialized medicine" countries, typically received their training completely at the expense of those countries' taxpayers, from which the latter then receive little if any benefit. So, in that sense, countries without "socialized medicine" mooch health care from the taxpayers of "socialized medicine" countries...  ;)

Anyone in the developed world who thinks they are not using "socialized medicine" when they interact with the medical or pharmaceutical industries in any way, is living a fantasy...  :D

No one stopped you from making more money and getting a private doctor. *Hint*

Personally, I don't like the idea in general. I do, however, like the idea that everyone gets the help they need (in theory), even though it is abused, and even though it comes out of my tax dollars.

Everyone I have met in europe loves their medical system.

Well, thankfully Obamacare makes sure that we still have private health insurance rather than a government run single payer system.  Certainly we can never have anything so awful happen as long as we are paying private sector insurance companies for our health insurance.

Tyranny in the form of taxes and regulations times infinity (effectively banning free enterprise) does.

Every child loves their parents.

Every hostage suffers from Stockholm syndrome eventually.

OP, please correct this open-ended question if this is off-topic.

Who here can honestly be in favor of denying healthcare to those who can't afford it?

Seriously, that's a tax I'm happy to pay. I think.

I know you're out there...

In a previous debate on this, it became clear that a few posters would rather let someone die than have their healthcare paid through taxation.

Before poor diet and globalized disease, the only time death occurred was through injury.

Is anyone denied treatment of moderate physical injuries today?

Not in the socialised or partially socialised systems of the UK and US, no.

What about private charity hospitals and ones ran by churches?

They wouldn't easily be overwhelmed by everyone that needed treatment.

(You can't just do away with disease etc., they would still remain if you completely privatised medicine) .

Anyway, I must go to work. That tax won't pay itself.

The public hospitals of today are easily overwhelmed. The waiting lists are staggering.

Not sure who in their right mind would wait in line to receive borderline malpractice, most of the time. "First do no harm" would be setting up a "break glass in case of..." box in every waiting room with this inside, with a disclaimer underneath that you are more likely to want to wish you were dead after receiving treatment and medication than when you came in.

http://andjuniorshakers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/suicide-gun1.jpg

Since when is insurance socialism?  When I think of socialism I think of a monopolized system I'm forced to pay for.  There are multiple insurance companies & and in most industries it is optional.  How is that socialism?  I'll agree that they share similarities that you previously pointed out, but the similarities stop there.  I definitely agree that most healthcare is very socialized, but insurance companies are one of the few reasons it isn't.

This implied dichotomy between "government funds healthcare" and "choose your doctors" is false. Vouchers for private health care would help the poor AND allow the market to encourage good care.

Everyone. Almost every life could be extended with more money, so at some point in any system you will have to deny healthcare to someone who can't afford it. Only our cutoff points differ, between $0 and "freeze everyone who dies".

Well, I hate to say it, but in a bitcoin world, a "preexisting condition" clause will still exist.  Although, I'd argue healthcare in general would be cheaper (because the govt won't exist) so people could afford to live w/o insurance.  Otherwise you better hope bitcoin dies a quick death so you can continue to ride the wave of socialism.  In the meantime, if I had a preexisting condition that prevented me from getting insurance, I'd move to Canada or Europe.

Even if insurance was optional, most people would probably still want it because they're risk-averse with their health. In a Bitcoin world with no legal barriers, insurance will be only a tiny bit more expensive than saving anyways. IMHO the main reason we aren't seeing this already is because of Bitcoin exchange rate instability and our immature financial infrastructure.

Awesome insurance rates might turn out to be the "killer app" for Bitcoin. :)

A really interesting article about Canada vs USA health care:
http://ayoungmomsmusings.blogspot.ca/2012/07/how-i-lost-my-fear-of-universal-health.html

I swear to never complain against the Canadian health care again. And as much I wanted to moved to USA a couple of years ago, now, it seems like a really unattractive place to live.

I live in a border city... I can drive to Michigan from Ontario in a matter of minutes.....


We have a very large amount of American's that come over and steal our healthcare.... From walk-in clinics to Emergency rooms... Go in with a Canadian's name and address and you get treated.

If you watch the Michael Moore movie "Sicko" you can see our local taco bell :)


We don't have the best healthcare in the world but IMO it works....  (my wife had gallstones, it took 3 trips to the emergency room and lots of morphine for anythign to be done)

They complain about taxes and they use the healthcare paid with OUR taxes? Damn Americans, we should build a big wall on the border with armed guards so they stay outside our society... ;D

bonne idée mon frère français :)


Good idea my french brother :)

Comme on dit chez nous, c'est une TABARNAK! de bonne idée.

Like we say here, it's a [too awesome word to be translated] of a good idea.  ;D

LoL.... It's a multiuse word....

I've always loved this joke...

So a guy from Alberta, Saskatchewan and Quebec are all stranded in the desert. Miraculously they stumble upon a magical lamp and a genie appears from it. He explains to the three of them that he will send them all back home on the condition that they each make one wish first. The guy from Saskatchewan agrees to go first. He explains to the genie about how the lack of rain is making the soil unfertile in his province, and with that he is sent back to his home to find the most fertile soil he could ever imagine.

Then the guy from Quebec steps up. He tells the genie that Quebec is loosing it's heritage and unique culture. He says that he wants a bubble put over the entire province so that no one can get in, and no one can get out. In a flash, he is sent back to his home in Quebec and sees that there is in fact a large bubble covering the entire province.

The last of the three, the Albertan, is standing there laughing. The genie looks at him and asks what is so funny.

Still laughing, the Albertan looks up and says, "you know that bubble you just put over Quebec... fill it with water."

Hahaha nice, didn't knew that one. ;)

We have a tons of jokes about Newfies (from Newfoundland), but not about Albertans. It's not our fault, Alberta was inexistant for centuries until they found oil a couple of years ago. Now, they're slowly becoming our sworn enemies   ;D

 ???

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Newfoundland_dog_Smoky.jpg/220px-Newfoundland_dog_Smoky.jpg

http://www.newfiejokes.net/   ;)

2 friends for life^?

Got hit in the eye by the Aurora shooter, now in coma and owe 2 millions $ in health treatments.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/24/caleb-medley-health-insurance_n_1699092.html

Let's forget the fact that crazies can buy automatic rifles at the nearest Wal-mart to imitate the Joker. You really agree with the fact that, by some pure bad luck, any young adult of your country can be completely crippled physically and financially for life? Right now, friend of the dude are starting a fund on Internet to help pay the health care bill. You're going to tell me that USA care so little for their citizens that those citizens have to seek international help to be able to survive in their own country?

Something went wrong somewhere.

Ever stop to think that maybe businesses could be competitive and charge fairly if there was actually a free market and not just crony capitalism/socialism in the U.S.?

No argument there... But I think we might disagree on what and where.

The problem is that business aim for profit. If, for some reason, a part of the population (like the poorest tier) is not profitable for many reasons, these businesses are certainly not going to offer their services to them.

My belief is that, for that part of the population, the government has the responsibility to take the loss and cover those people. And yeah, you should pay taxes as a citizen to offer that service.

Free market for vital needs suck, because there's always a part of the market where no profit can be made and no business want to go there.


Yeah probably. I'm an outsider, and there's many informations that I don't have because I don't live in your country. The fact that you live differently, I have no problems with it. It's more that when I was young, I read about USA history, and I always had a great respect for what you accomplished. But right now, it's like looking at somebody for which I have a great respect completely going downhill and destroying itself.

So you plunder private wealth to prop up businesses run by closet assholes who want to rely upon plundered wealth instead of admitting "we're assholes, not charities".

Fuck that tyrannical bullshit.

Imagine how it would feel if you not just respected that person, but loved them greatly, and knew you could not save them from their addiction? That's how I feel about it. It's really depressing, actually.


Even the poorest person in America (well, excepting the homeless - that's another kettle of fish entirely) has a color television. Even many homeless people have cell phones. One of the best way to get profits is to give as many people as possible what they want, for the lowest price possible. That's Wal-mart's strategy, and it's working fine for them.

Medical care is no different, it can be provided cheaply, and efficiently, by doctors competing to get your business. Heh. I've noticed Walmart is absorbing other services, as well (my local one has a bank, an optometrist's, and a hair stylist in it, not to mention the McDonalds and arcade) Imagine if Walmart opened a medical clinic over by the pharmacy?

Yeah, that's it! You understand exactly my point. The only thing different is that your "private wealth", you were able to have it because of the society around you. You couldn't accumulate the same wealth while living in Antarctica, because you don't have the society support around you.

The trick is, if you are able to increase your wealth because of the society, you should give back a little part of it, so another of your citizen have the same chance of increasing his own wealth, and give a back a part of it, etc. You can see the phenomenon with professional sport leagues like the NFL and the NHL. I don't know too much about the NFL, but the NHL, since the last lock-out of 2004-2005, has created a wealth distribution system through the league. And you know what? The league break revenues records year after year since 2005 because the poorest teams can still build a competitive team, that attracts fans, that create new revenues, new wealth and create a nice loop.


It would be nice if it was the situation. But right now, you got millions of people without health insurance, and you NEED to cover them. You're gambling with your human potential for money and political reasons. Insure them, whatever the cost is. You can pay yourself a war in Irak that gives nothing back? I'm pretty sure you can pay for health insurance that certainly gives a return. If the businesses can't fill the hole, the government has to.


Yeah, that's pretty shitty. I hope you guys find a solution. Bitcoin supports you  ;D

This is like giving a positive review of a car of which 2% of all sold explode randomly, killing the occupant.

I have wealth because I provide services or goods and people pay me for it. Compulsory charity is tyranny and nobody gets to browbeat me into throwing my money into a tyrannical pit.

I don't have health insurance, I don't need nor want to be covered and then receive borderline malpractice and live in hell like everyone I know who receives regular non-emergent western medical care. I am also a strategically risky person and have never been to (or by any stretch of the imagination, needed) the ER for anything, not even a broken bone or sutures. I don't feel ripped off paying in cash for stuff like nevus removal or stuck earwax irrigation/removal (those were a looong time ago). And if my luck or risk strategies run out, I will pay the consequences, bankruptcy or DNR.

But that's the problem, and the addiction that I spoke of before. Other people's money is a powerful drug, and one that eventually kills the addict. You can either quit cold turkey, but the withdrawal is a bitch, and is almost as bad as keeping on the same way. Agorism is the other option, think of it like a 12-step for OPM.