Bitcoin Forum

Please help me.
I have 24,841 bitcoins on deposit with Bitcoinica.
I have provided them with my full and complete account history including every transaction since day one.
There is no question as to exactly how much I am owed. (I'm happy to provide proof to other trusted entities)
I have patiently been asking for them for my money back for months, but they have refused to return even a single Bitcoin to me.

I'm a core Bitcoin proselytizer.
I'm responsible partly or in full for:

www.Bitinstant.com (http://www.Bitinstant.com)
www.coinlab.com (http://www.coinlab.com)
www.lovebitcoins.org (http://www.lovebitcoins.org)
www.ogrr.com (http://www.ogrr.com)
www.bitcoinchipin.com (http://www.bitcoinchipin.com)
www.memorydealers.com (http://www.memorydealers.com)
National Bitcoin radio adds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pV9ptoCMyc) @ $2,800 a month for over the last year.
The Bitcoin Bet. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfydIbhduu0)
Bitcoin Billboard (http://spacecollective.org/giulio/6894/Bitcoin-a-CryptoCurrency-for-a-free-Internet-and-a-free-society)
Numerous national radio interviews. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZAFGRrp_kc)
Several more projects that are in the works including a Bitcoin competitor to newegg.com (http://newegg.com).

For the last 1.5 years I have spent every waking moment promoting Bitcoin,  and my 24,841 Bitcoins were to be used exactly for that.

Hacker, Tihan,  Zhou,  Patrick, Donald, Amir, or anyone else with access to my money,  please return it to
16HMoS4TryH7wWsAv2PtvxiHX8QGXMGczi

so that I can continue to effectively promote Bitcoin.
Returning my funds will likely make everyone's worth even more in the long run.
I promise I will continue using them to help advance Bitcoin.

Roger Ver
roger@memorydealers.com
Cell +1-408-313-1853

Very sorry, Roger.  I don't know what your options are at this point.  It's looking more and more like this (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=93109.0) is going to be the way to go, but I doubt that'll end up being very satisfying in the end.  This is a real mess.

I don't know if it is coincidence,  but Bitcoinica announced the latest hacking one day after myself and three other major creditors threatened to take legal action.  The timing seems too convenient for them.

Roger, I've been trying to hold my tongue on any conspiracy theories and such, but this whole thing keeps looking more and more suspicious.  Obviously, I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but this whole thing was strange enough a few months ago that it prompted me to take my personal bitcoin security very seriously (offline wallets, multi-factor auth, fireproof safes, etc.).

I really wish there were some way to help you, because you've done a tremendous amount work for the project in lots of different ways.  Again, so sorry for this.  As I've said before, I hope that everyone is learning the value of bitcoin as a way to secure your own wealth.

This is just a hunch but maybe try posting this plea in he Russian forums.

 :(

People have no clue what a bigger effect this has on bitcoin when you effect users who are passionate about it. The "stolen btc" has just a small effect compared to the damage it does to bitcoin's image and the people who take time to help  promote it. If someone like Roger was to leave the community it has far-reaching effects.

If bitcoinica, Intersango want to truely show they have bitcoin as a whole in their interest they would send Roger bitcoins to him asap.

Just really,really bad to do this. Nobody, should be pleaing on a public forum for their money back wtf  ???

edit: I mean really think about it. Roger does an interview and the interviewer asks what does he think about all the bitcoin related hacks and problems so far how is he going to be able to keep a straight-face and say things are getting better? just so frustrating.

I'm feel very bad when I hear stories like this, I can't believe that somebody can destroy someone's life and sleep well at night. I really hope that you will get your money back and that one who stole them will face the consequences.

That sucks, I hope you get your money back.

good luck mate, I hope you get at least some of those btc back

There's not much I can do to help but I will send one of mine to: 16HMoS4TryH7wWsAv2PtvxiHX8QGXMGczi

I encourage whomever is reading this to consider doing the same. Sucks to see bad things happen to good people.

Personally, it might not be fair to others that could potentially be ahead of Mem Dealers in line..

But, for the good of the community, and for outstanding characters like this, that have full documentation on funds in bitcoinica,

accounts like these should priority one.

Why should multiple bitcoin based business's suffer and potentially drown under the stupidity of Bitcoinica?



Also, I agree with Proudhon, this is looking more and more like a long con..

Coincidence..   I think not.. 

So with BTC there is no insurance or anything like that with your money? Basically anyone that has the knowledge to hack their way into your wallet/account and take your BTC they end up with it?

Correct. It's just like dollars or valuable jewelry in your house. If someone can hack their way into it they end up with it.

Apparently Mt.Gox knows who withdrew the 40k+40k, but they choose to protect the hacker. Roger, you know Mark personally, so call and ask him to whom he did send those funds. I am sure this will shed some light to the whole affair.

Though in this case it's hardly 'hacking' - the information needed to gain access to the account was publicly available :(.

I'm truly sorry for Roger - he's one of the good guys in this community. Let's hope that the remaining Bitcoinica funds don't slip through their fingers before they can at least partially compensate him.

But as dollars or jewelry, you can, theoretically, insure them. It just happens that bitcoin is so new and unknown that I don't think there's any insurance available yet.

Im really sorry for you, and i hope you will get your coins back.

LOL, that's funny because it's true.

But I suspect memdealer would have better luck with less Cyrillic and more Mandarin...

I'm truly sorry for Roger
bitcoiners and accounts like these should priority one.

what's going on behind the scenes Tihan,  Zhou,  Patrick, Donald, Amir, or anyone else with access to Bitcoinica money ????????

Can I ask you why you have such large amount of money in a third party site?

Tihan and Zhou specifically told Patrick, Donald, and Amir to refund my money,  but they steadfastly refused to send me even 1 bitcoin of it.
They claimed that they needed to wait until the claim process was complete, but refused to set any kind of date.

I was attracted by the high interest rates and the money I thought I could earn by depositing bitcoins with them.
I never made a single trade on Bitcoinica.
I simply held a balance and collected interest.

Now that's just asinine, if true.

Haha, now to spread FUD (because that is what the forums are for now right?) MtGox is bitconica hacker

Why fight Gox on this...If the BTC/$ was withdrawn from Bitcoinica's Mt.Gox account, Bitcoinica has the information.  They can login and do whatever they want with it, post it publicly even.  Or do they no longer have access to their own account? I can't keep up.  But it's sad to see Memory Dealers lose so much when they have done so much for Bitcoin.  I hope you can recover something.

So you were gambling.

Is there no one left in the world that understands economics and compound interest any more? Getting paid high interest rates on investments indicates high risk, including the risk that the entire scheme is a fraud

Betting on mathematically-impossible returns on financial instruments will always end in tears.

/me faceplams

MemoryDealers: You should have known better than to risk such a large sum of money at a 3rd party site.

if it was a MtGox code, then only MtGox would know where it was redeemed at.  But yea, it is certainly true that Bitcoinica can see what IP initiated the transfers.

roger if you don't mind my asking, was this the majority of your btc holdings?

Pirate secretly owns MtGox and uses stolen Bitcoinica funds to spam the blockchain with SatoshiDice transactions.

Therefore, Bitcoin is DOOMED.

Quick, send me all your coins before the hackers steal your organs!

(How'd I do?)

Roger, I'm sorry to hear of your loss. In the end, you can't really trust anyone else to keep your coins safe. Looking back, this answer was actually not very good:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=63694.msg745976#msg745976

:(

I hope you will soon get at least rest of your coins back.

Can we stop blaming those who invested due to promises made by bitcoinica ie. interest rates, safe holdings etc.

Its getting rediculous the constant blame on the clients and pointing out that they gambled and knew they could lose the earnings. In hindsight it allways looks like a bad decision but these bad decisions is not the fault of the client but only that of those who handled the client's money.

Guess what, no one would knowingly deposit their funds if they have any idea intially that its a gamble and they may/may not get their funds back so please stop fucking pressing the issue onto the clients ie. memorydealer in this case.

I'm truely sorry for your loss, Roger. It really hurts to see a true pillar of the Bitcoin community suffer this kind of setback.

Sad.  :(

Are you familiar with the concept of root cause analysis?

It's a technique of examining mistakes in order to learn how to prevent them in the future. It's also a way that one can learn from the mistakes of others without needing to experience the mistake directly.

If one avoids examining all causes of a mistake because considering internal causes is called, "blaming the victim" the effectiveness of the technique is greatly reduced.

This is what strikes me as odd.

When the Bitcoinica servers were deleted, I wonder... "What's Rackspace's response to Bitcoinica's queries of 'we really need your help, surely you have a backup?"  Nowhere did I read the results of them pushing Rackspace for the backups.  You would think that if Rackspace doesn't keep backups for their own business continuity and that once someone pushes delete, data is gone forever, that that would be a significant public relations fiasco for Rackspace.  I find it hard to believe the data is truly gone... unless of course nobody asked.

Even at my payroll business, we take backups and we don't really offer restorations when people delete their own data because it's to save our ass not theirs, but if someone REALLY needed a restore because it meant hundreds of thousands of dollars to their customers and they were willing to pay a grand or two in fees to prove it, I'd flip over backwards for them and restore whatever the hell they want.  I am highly suspicious of the notion that the data was gone the moment it was deleted.  And the fact that screenshots were taken of the deletion and paraded around - just in case virtual servers being deleted sounded too stupid to be believable - makes it even more ridiculous to me.

When 40k BTC and 40k USD moves somewhere, I am amazed that we hear nothing of where it went - no BTC withdrawal address so we can track the coins - and I'm genuinely interested to hear how anybody got 40k USD out of MtGox instantly when the usual wait time is much longer.  Why isn't anybody telling us "our history shows it went out as a wire" or "our history shows it went out as a MtGox code and MtGox has frozen whoever redeemed it"...

Lets all read this again...    ;)

This

I was wondering how the hacker managed to withdraw such a large amount - so quickly - while honest MtGox customers have to wait weeks.

Probably mtgox codes used at other exchanges.

Rackspace's cloud keeps backup of all the could, it can't be used to recover data of a single client. That backup is kept in the event of emergency if anything drastic happens to Rackspace's infrastructure, that's why they offer optional offsite backup at extra if a customer requires it on individual level
Zhou has said before that they offered Rackspace $10k to help recover deleted serves; Rackspace simply couldn't help. RS would have to nuke all their cloud client's servers and restore them back (which also can be assumed isn't instantaneous process)

It's hard for me to picture a scenario where restoring a backup would "require" them to completely disrupt their clients' servers.  Surely they can restore it to other equipment that's not being used?  I mean, when I say I can "flip over backwards" and restore my backups for somebody, it doesn't mean I"m going to shut down all my services because I'm pretending that the backup can only be restored to the same hardware it was taken from - it means I'm going to grab some unused machine and restore to that instead.

Even the whole idea that their backups are only useful for restoring the "entire cloud", I just don't buy that.  The news recently reported they hit 100k customers - let's say each customer has an average of 30 gigs of data.  Do they back up their entire cloud to a single 3-petabyte file and that's why it can only be restored on an all-or-nothing basis?  What kind of media do they use to store a file this big?

At least if they have made the claim that they offered $10k and it wasn't accepted, that's better than what I had thought before, which was that no significant efforts were made (I don't follow every post on this topic).

I call bullshit, no half arse company(and mind you rackspace is fairly competent) would reject $10k for such a recovery job which they should have procedures in place to do.

more discussion re this following in the thread after that post https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84042.msg937829#msg937829

Maybe there are other reasons they are refusing to restore the data. They are in the US and can be pressured by the feds and we know how much the US government loves bitcoin.....

I imagine a series of massive hacks would destroy confidence dont you ?

Yeah, none of that adds up at all.. They could restore the VM's if they really wanted too, there is no technical barrier for them to do so that money can't fix, that's for certain.  I mean even if they were doing LUN level backup and had to recover 10, 50, 100 customers or something in order to pull the VM's out of the LUN, they could have restored it to some scratch space took what they needed and scrapped the rest.

We use ZFS for all our VM's,  if something like that happened on our systems, we mount the earlier snapshot and boot the VM right back up again in a sandbox, take whatever we need, and that's it.

Rackspace probably has similar technologies, worst case scenario they have to restore 100 customers to a sandbox,  10k, 20k, 50k, 100k,  any of these amounts would be trivial in this case.  I'm sure if you got escalated to the right level of management it would have happened, had they acted QUICKLY and DECISIVELY, which unfortunately, we know is NOT what they do..

Which is why this unfortunately does all look like the long con, none of this shit adds up, its just one amateur hour shit show that just keeps going and going and going..

In the main thread he updated it to they still have 2/3 of the claim money. so ~ another 80,000 BTC.

Good luck!

I don't know Rackspace's procedures nor your procedures; but I can offer you a clean explanation of not being able to restore the individual backups. I'm kinda familiar how other kinda-cloud provider does backups.

All the backups are encrypted with a transactional key. There are separate keys for each VM and for each incremental backup. The keys are stored only as long as the accounting record for the VM is open. Once the VM is deleted and summarized for the purpose of charging all transactional keys are deleted zeroized (I forgot to use the proper lingo).

The encryption key deletion zeroization is a security precaution against many inside attacks as well as against compromised backup media.

The above procedure is actually an important selling point. If you don't do that internaly for the 3rd party data then you should start doing this as soon as practical to lower your own liability.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware-based_full_disk_encryption
http://www.hgst.com/internal-drives/self-encrypting-drives/

How does that get past AMl ans KYC laws then ? You cant just withdraw 40 000 of anything without them having your government ID.

Hmm yeah I have come across something similar now that I think about it..  the service provider only has the keys as long as the customer has the service.   If the customer was subscribing to their own backup, only they would have the keys, and not the provider..

There may still be a way around it, but by design, money wouldn't necessarily fix this problem.  Guess i'm wrong.

I read this saga and again I see proof of my theory that hosting servers in some Crackspace is insecure. I host my servers from my home. They are under my sole control, both the software and hardware. No need to trust someone else to be both competent in securing the server and not to snoop at my data or steal coins residing on server.

40k of BTC, if I was a techie in such datacenter I will steal the coins on first opportunity and quit working as a monkey for rest of my life. 40K of BTC is worth about 25 years of salary in my country. I could kill anybody for quarter of that.

Good to see you would destroy another individuals life for your own gain. do you have no morals or soul?

Well until the recent hack and all the new information coming out I was on Bitcoinicas side and thought payouts were coming. I dont see that happening anymore. A lawsuit would be the best way to go now especially if you dont want to take a 30% cut in what you are owed.

Does anyone have a VERY detailed timeline of events of what happened with Bitcoinica? One that goes as far back to the launch on Bitcoinica would be best.

For their sake I hope your customers know not to hire you if the value of what they want you to protect is more than BTC10K.

This right here sounds like what is going on with pirate's deal...

Roger, I have one honest question:

After all of the hacks and stolen bitcoin stories, why would you deposit so much bitcoins with anyone?

I truly feel sorry for you and I give you credit for your tremendous contribution to the bitcoin community, but bitcoin is supposed to give the people 100% control of their money as you have said yourself many times over (even in the recent porc fest video).

Vladimir is right when he said that the ONLY way to keep your bitcoins safe is to heavily enrcypt your wallet, put it in a locked room/safe/, or have a brain wallet or paper wallet kept in a very secure place.

Let this once again be a lesson to everyone (not as a troll) but sincerely a lesson to keep your bitcoins in your possession and do everything it takes to keep it from being stolen.

Rackspace also supposedly allowed automated password reset via e-mail and didn't have any way to lock an attacker out of their management console once they'd authenticated, if we believe what Bitcoinica. Using this kind of protection against VM or backup compromise would be the equivalent of having an elaborately-boobytrapped steel front door which randomly maimed people who opened it wrong and then, around the back, having another access route though a rotted garden gate and a doorway secured with a single-lever lock. It'd be completely nuts as an approach to security.

From your post I gather that you have never worked, consulted or even repeatedly visited any large publicly-traded company. Neither you've served in armed forces of any country.

They are all completely nuts, exactly like that. Top-level security and armed guards at the front door, but an elephant door to the warehouse in the back secured with a piece of plastic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Soldiers_(film)

Sorry to hear about this Roger.

Reading between the line, I like how you think. I'm not advocating anything here, just stating that I like how you think. Did I mention I wasn't advocating...

Don't say this lightheartedly, Roger, but I feel your pain. I have an idea. Let's switch position. I'll pay what's owed you and you pay to have now two toxic sites cleaned up due to the storage of antique painted barn wood plus the forthcoming daily fines. My troubles stem, albeit indirectly, from the same debacle (I must be in good in spirits to have opted for that word).

I'm not sure what I would do if I discover that Satoshi Nakamoto is still in his teens.

~Bruno~

Edit: I continued reading from the point where I left off, and want to be very clear on something. I'm not seeking any sympathy for what I'm currently going through. Just stating facts and showing an example of the butterfly effect.

I have an idea who the mysterious Wendon is, but need more time to connect the dots. This was a tough one! I'll leave you with a one word clue: Slice.

~Bruno~

I hope this turns out as well as it possibly can for you, Roger, and everyone else affected.  Don't give up on BTC though!!

I deposited this many Bitcoins because I have spoken with Zhou many times on skype / email about various things.
I also have spoken with Tihan on the phone for close to an hour.
Between the two of them,  I felt safe keeping my money on deposit with them.

While I do feel bad for everyone at Bitcoinica, the fact that they were hacked is not their user's problem.
I still hope that whoever is currently behind Bitcoinca will step up and do the right thing.

It makes me wonder if the answer to:
1. Secretly buy Bitcoinica (paying enough to pay off Zhou's education and parent's mortgage)
2. ? ? ? ? ? ?
3. Profit

is:

2. Steal user's bitcoins

I think there are reasons to believe that robbing people like Roger was the intent of the Intersango guys when they bought Bitcoinica.

Say I got a tin foil hat if you want, but the bankers running the current monetary system would surely be trying to siphon away people's bitcoins...and Patrick, Donald, and Amir have ALWAYS come off as tools of the establishment.

Since you give me the option, yes you are wearing a massive pizza-cheese encrusted tin foil hat.

Your leap in logic in astonishing. Is that generally all the evidence you need to form your assumptions?

+1




offtopic

@cryptoanarchist we all have our tinfoil hats handy when posting on bitcointalk, and your theory doesn't even need one to believe.

As an advice, always look into posts history of people who bash your statements or attack you personally, we sometimes have 51% of establishments trolls working full time in the community, divide et impera is their goal

/offtopic

And in the end, what happened? Bitcoin was worth around $15 in May 2012 at the time of the incident.

Did any investors get any crypto back at all?

Why not try to message out OP? He's online as of this day and might not able to get up some answers on this thread yet the last post were in 2012.
He definitely forgot up this thread for sure. Im quite curious as well on what happened to the funds.Imagine that number of BTC on the current price of the market.