Bitcoin Forum

The radicalness of this new government and their desires to fulfill the promise the people voted them in, they must follow through on that duty if they want to get re-elected, that is how the current government is viewing their win in this election. If this is the case, and they fulfill their goals, this will be a major radical shift in the types of governments winning power. (The democrat/republican will become a thing of the past oh so I hope) So keep that in mind with all that is happening in the world. The world is mutating and changing like an organism metamorphosing  very rapidly. So these fringe elements are really beginning to make their way into the center of mainstream society/dialog.

Once more capital controls get put into place, and economies crater, government get more hostile, there will be a an entire revolt.

Should the Euro drop Greek funding, let the banks go completely insolvent. Here is a chance for bitcoin to and the families and business in Greece to utilize the block chain in the same way of the early days of the United state, and much of the world for that matter. If you wanted a piece of land you just had to go and claim it. Similarly, the greek people can claim THEIR property, titles, deeds etc on the blockchain, However, crowdsourcing will be required to help Greece from not becoming a blackhole.

An entire paradigm shift around banking and community needs to begin, the people supporting the people. We have the power of the internet, and a MASSIVE wealth(DOLLARS that can flow into bitcoin to aid Greece) to accomplish this. There are enough competent people is Greece to do this, Yanis Varoufakis is 100% bitcoin literate, he an Andreas Antonopoulos got into a very intellectual discussion regarding bitcoin

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2014/03/13/debating-bitcoin-on-abc-late-night-live-with-phillip-adams-and-andreas-andreopoulos/

(Yanis is not in favor of bitcoin, but this can change, he actually really likes bitcoin but has major legitimate doubts)

 This is going to be a Manhattan type project for bitcoin to undertake. Initially any money invest is going to likely enter a black hole and will never be seen again, but if enough money and resources can be given the greek people eventually the the black hole will fill in and become a pile of money/resources/credits, free of debts, nothing but innovation and incredible advances in quality of life will potentially take place. The final product needs to be a situation in which enough Greek people have enough bitcoin wealth to begin to participate in their own economy and with the world.

This might be an entire restructuring as when they run out of money, entire businesses and supply chains fail. When the these things eventually get back in action, entire demands and product can change, rendering the failed businesses entirely obsolete. While a shit and unfortunate situation, it gets rid of the old to make way for the new.

Once this happens, for obvious reason there will be a cascade affect on the rest of the world, if somehow the Greek and the bitcoin community come together to ensure the greek people have the resources they need to restructure the economy in-house without owing a giant debt, affording them to move forward in a truly demorcratics representive society, demand based economy, built around the block chain technology. Voting may perhaps become a bitcoin thing if designated addresses can be given to each member in society, Colored coins.. use your imagination and there will be a method found that gets used for voting.

This may be perhaps where governments can instead of going back to the drachma, simply create their own crypto currency. Their may be some use in having multiple alt coins, but that is getting into a discussion much further in the future until we truly see how bitcoin can work around some of the thorny issues regarding hacking.

Yep, bitcoin can save greek people like chypre people.  :)

human can evolve, if they want ...

http://media.coindesk.com/2014/12/bitcoin-evolution-01.jpg

Im extremely interested in the outcome of Greece, i'll listen to this later. But in any case I dont see them making Bitcoin the official Greece coin so to speak. People is too dumb to adapt all of a sudden to Bitcoin. Its too crazy and experimental to make it the currency of an entire nation.
Then again they are in a dead end on the 28th, unless they arrive at agreement with Merkel which is not gonna happen.

I am a big fan of Yanis Varoufakis and Greece come to that.

Imo bitcoin will never be adopted by Greece or Yanis.

here are his thoughts on bitcoin


source:  http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2014/05/08/digital-economies-markets-money-and-democratic-politics-revisited/

Varoufakis donest believe in Bitcoin as a replacement of national fiat currencies at all, and I dont think nothing can change his views on this so I dont see it OP.

Its also not necessarily about him, as the answer to their debt problem, just like everyone else is going to be decentralization. Families could be funded on gofundme. and other crowd sourcing platforms.  It is possible….

Bitcoin does not care what Yanis has to say. And nothing can stop the greeks from changing…

When I speak of manhattan style project, the BITCOIN COMMUNITY needs to unleash like thousands of little bitcoin drone people to explain and show how bitcoin work, while opening shops through out the country be mobile phones, bitcoin wallets, the venture capitalist have to just dive in essentially and transform it…..


^^…...because the greek people are retarded and old school

Crypto will take years if not decades for ordinary citizens to adopt.  In the mean time why not force our elected officials and governments to use a blockchain for government spending?  This would force them to be a little more cautious on pet projects and paybacks to donors.

The more the thieves and parasites hate on Bitcoin, the more we know it's the right solution.

If Varoufakis is determined to return to drachma, I would recommend him to buy 10.000 Bitcoins first and inform the world about those Greek Bitcoin reserves.

It should help Greece to keep on paying pensions. It would be the powerful move of a master.

Right, although he had personally invested (dirty capitalist!! ^^) in Tembusu Systems, which recently raised over a million $$.. ::)



> http://theindependent.sg/blog/2015/01/29/tembusus-bold-cryptocurrency-plan-secures-1-million-boost/


discl: I dont like him, seems dodgie. yet another status quo puppet.

I hope that the last step is realized as soon as possible ...
i mean pass from credit card to wallet/bitcoin-altcoin

although I think it will still take years ...
governments, slaves of large financial groups and banks,
will fight hard to denigrate and scuttle the bitcoin

Nothing will happen in the next days for greece. If we have dont have a european deal in the next days then is sure that Greek goverment will go to Russia or China for a small loan to cover running cost until summer. This action will return the pressure to Merkel. We must not forget that Varoufakis is a master in Game theory.
I have write to Varoufakis about the new technology era in financial system and that Greece must adopt this new technology as a new invest and new greek development area.
You can see my message here

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/01/27/finance-ministry-slows-blogging-down-but-ends-it-not/

is 8 from the beginning and i write there like spiroseliot.
one last think i like to say is that here in Greece we love guys like varoufakis.

http://www.iefimerida.gr/sites/default/files/10930938_674636465986570_7311060436691752529_n.png

He's well able for aggressive journalists  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiIO4YciewU

I never post anything but, listened to the talk.  This guy has no clue about history.  He claims the fed was created to save the economy from the depression.  When in fact the fed destroyed the US and caused the depression.  How can a professor be so ignorant of facts?  The classic gold standard was the only thing saving the USD until 1913.   

great Varoufakis

:-)

Has there been any talk within the EU about boosting Greece's manufacturing or science industry?  Why would the EU not give tax breaks or credits to companies to open facilities in Greece where the level of education is quite high amongst the unemployed and underemployed?

When you look at arguments and points like this it does really only point the fact the entire economy is a manipulated farce designed to enrich a very small elite. They are not creating an advancing future, but rather keeping the old system and kicking the can down the road… If they wanted investments in the projects that produce a new generation of people and thinking the bankers could front run it, and quit making poverty/inequality such a headline issue. If they wanted the world to be smart and inhabited with smart people, they could have done so with all the money wasted on wars and adding debt to insolvent countries. but noooo.

I'm also very interested what will happen in Greece.
I don't think that thy can simple change Euro with bitcoin and that this will fix all their financial problems.
Nobody will forgive them their financial debts and I don't think that EU will ever accept repayments in BTC instead of Euro :)
BTC can be good solution for them if they ever decide to give up from Euro but until they resolve this financial situation this is not possible.

i agree with you!!!
for sure, they cannot simple change Euro with bitcoin and and fix all their financial problems.
but i agree with varoufakis...
why germat, after second world war, get a 50% disocunt on debit war...
which is more serious...
and greek cannot???

really strange!

 ;) ;) ;)

from wiki

"The total under negotiation was 16 billion marks of debt resulting from the Treaty of Versailles after World War I which had not been paid in the 1930s, but which Germany decided to repay to restore its reputation. This money was owed to government and private banks in the U.S., France and Britain. Another 16 billion marks represented postwar loans by the U.S. Under the London Debts Agreement of 1953, the repayable amount was reduced by 50% to about 15 billion marks and stretched out over 30 years, and compared to the fast-growing German economy were of minor impact.[2]"

Varoufakis is delusional. There's no way they are going to intimidate the Troika. Plus there is legit debt that they owe to them, not all is scam debt.

hi manselr!

maybe 'ru german?

 ;) ;) ;) ;)

This picture is from 1953 when the greek prime minister Mr Karamnlis sign the 50 % haircut of German loan . Greece was one of many countries that Germany has debt with them.

https://i.imgur.com/9dBk0AA.jpg

The logic of his views are flawed, but I doubt he'll change his mind, a hacker can break into your PC and steal Govt issued funds.
As for Bitcoin's 'value' being too small, that would massively increase if a nation adopted it because Bitcoin, unlike Govt issued fiat is a truly limited commodity, greater adoption would by definition increase it's inherent value.
I'd rather trust Cryptography than fiat issued by any politician, except maybe Ron Paul.

correct!!!

and thanks for the clarification!!!

...iforgot to mention this important detail!

 ;)

Just created #SupportGreeceBuyBitcoin on twitter

BITCOIN: A flawed currency blueprint with a potentially useful application for the Eurozone

The responses of many to my post on Bitcoin reveal a powerful tendency to underestimate the ill-effects of deflation on a social economy. This tendency to underestimate deflation’s deleterious impact matters beyond debates on Bitcoin per se.

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2014/02/15/bitcoin-a-flawed-currency-blueprint-with-a-potentially-useful-application-for-the-eurozone/

German or not he is right tho.
Varoufakis either accepts the Troika's conditions for the plan or not. If they don't then they'll have to abandon Euro.

QFT. For once, people will be laughing as they walk away from the banks. Bitcoin will undo every bailout, and leave the old centralized system to die. Personally I'm looking forward to it.

Bitcoiners be all, "I reject your debt based capitalism, and substitute my own."

http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/e-gall-hayek-banderas-395x298.jpg

It's a good idea if they can start off with Greece and if it becomes successful will soon becomes something which others countries can follow.

No short term good will come from Greece exiting the euro.  This process would severely hurt the people of Greece who would no longer afford many basic imports.

Bitcoin can save Greece, Europe, or any country who implements the block chain at the government level so citizens can track where all the wasted tax money flows.  Only then can politicians be held accountable for their actions.

greece has to leave. now or in the next years. take a look in the history books.

Quite the contrary - everybody understands the effects of deflation on a social economy.

The "social" economy is the poison for which deflation is the cure.

...

The future, at least short-term, does not look good under any scenario for Greece.  Greece produces very few things that people in other countries want or need.  Adding value is the key to gaining wealth: if you do not produce something (or otherwise add value), no one else will pay you.

I do not see how Greece resolves this either by going further into debt (troika's solution) or by "Grexiting" and starting over with the Drachma.  Greece's problems are structural, and will take a long time to resolve even if they choose wise policies (which they may not).

A Bitcoin currency does not resolve Greece.

He is smart but he is very disliked by many of the people he is dealing with, maybe in purpose.

Why are you guys keep posting about countries with problems adopting bitcoin? In the best case scenario that a country wanted to use a cryptocurrency why wouldnt they create their own coin instead of using Bitcoin?

because network effect #security #decentralization #legitimacy

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/big-six-arms-exporters-2012-06-11

For what it is worth when you say Greece doesnt produce any goods the rest of the world wants…..

What about 'merica.

6. USA
The United States is by far the world’s largest arms trader, accounting for around 30 per cent of conventional arms transfers in terms of value. Its position on the ATT is therefore key.

Countries supplied
The USA supplies arms to more than 170 countries and has a mixed record of suspending arms supplies on human rights grounds. For example, it has restricted arms transfers to Myanmar, China, Sri Lanka and Zimbabwe in addition to countries subject to UN arms embargoes. However, it has supplied arms to other countries, for example Sri Lanka, Bahrain, Egypt and Yemen, where there is a substantial risk that they could be used to commit of facilitate serious human rights violations.

Irresponsible transfers
As the main arms supplier to Egypt, the US authorized the sale of small arms, millions of rounds of ammunition and chemical agents for riot control, despite the security forces’ violent crackdown on protesters. Yemen was also supplied with small arms, chemical agents and armoured vehicles, and Bahrain with small arms. It provides Colombia’s security forces with arms, military aid and training, despite their persistent violations of human rights.

Stance on the ATT
Since October 2009, when the Obama administration reversed previous opposition to an ATT, US support has been crucial in getting to the current negotiation stage. The US has said it wants the treaty to raise the international standard for export control of armaments as close as possible to that of the US. However, the US position is weaker on human rights protection in the treaty than many of its allies. For example, US officials have not wanted to include obligations on states to prohibit transfers of arms even where there is credible evidence of their potential use for serious violations of human rights. US officials have also argued against including ammunition under the scope of the treaty, claiming it is too sensitive and would pose technical problems of implementation. Overall, US officials would prefer a short loose document that spells out general principles to “take into account” rather than strong binding measures.

Are you implying that bitcoin is actually decentralized?

And i think that if a country creates a nice fork of bitcoin it would pretty fast acquire a big network.

nah, but still it'll be more decentralized than any crappy gov token, whether digital or not.

edit: actually bitcoin's decentralization is (https://blockchain.info/fr/pools)


who would mine the fork, ensuring blockchain security? goverments? XD

i think it aint happening. ever. bitcoin is just different. so political yet apolitical.

Why would a fork of bitcoin adopted by a country would be less decentralized than bitcoin? And why do you call it crappy gov token? It would be just a fork of bitcoin and accepted everywhere and for everything in that country. As a matter of fact, given the number of people now knowing about cryptos, it would be 10 times more decentralized than bitcoin.

The reality is that a government has to control her economy. Because if she cant she risks being controlled by others. So no goverment would/should ever risk to use a decentralized currency. But if they did adopt a new fork of bitcoin it would be more decentralized and easily more adopted.

Because dollar/euro/yen/rouble is crappy worthless printed tokens.
Printed by people that has no legitimacy on "controling" the economy monetary system.
They will fail at some point, as every other fiat currency has in the past.


A government only duty is to ensure its citizen safety and prosperity.  
Certainly not freaking controling every aspect of their lives and taxing the sh*t outta them.

edit: and actually, bitcoin's decentralization is (https://blockchain.info/fr/pools)

What exactly dont you understand when i say a simple fork of bitcoin? How come they would be able to print more of it?

I remind you that we discuss about whats the point of a country using Bitcoin instead of creating a new fork of Bitcoin.

Every time the possibility of mass adoption is mentioned there's always a govt official or media outlet saying "see, it's not secure you could lose your investment"... this is why the majority of VC funding needs to belong to improving security first. Until we can go several months without more news about exchanges getting hacked or several people hitting the forums with new lost coins it will be a tough sell.
It doesn't matter that the banks are also being hacked and major retailers CC systems are being compromised... that info isn't going to change the masses way of doing business as usual... we have to prove without a doubt that the wallet system is far more secure.
Sure best practices can prevent theft but for some reason it's not sinking in.
Let the traditional old heads have their regulated exchanges if that makes them feel safe as long as this isn't forced on those that don't want to be controlled/manipulated.

it might be 20+ years before we get a hack proof bitcoin and a society worthy of using bitcoin securely, however at some point we will cross a threshold where bitcoin wallets are absolutely secure, and for generations the world will forever change. Our lifetime is almost not as important as the next generation, and I'm basically a baby in todays world.

A mass campaign for supporting greece and bitcoin adaption could be a good start.

Last night it sounded like Greece would be leaving, but a last minute deal seems to have been done. The first article link keeps it simple and the second one is a long winded EU version. Both articles explain the deal and how it works.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102441973#.

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2015/02/150220-eurogroup-statement-greece/

Picturing a massive letter drop from the sky  8)

Threads like this are what is for now preventing another cyprus bank bail-in… If they decide to do a bank holiday/bail-in it is going to have to be global all at once, or bitcoin to the moon and fiat dead. A global bail in would kill fiat and badly damage global trade. A localized bail in would basically be the same as the sentence before but it would buy the people of the world a few weeks to get some bitcoin… 98% of the world would be done though. It'll be years and years before any form of a new economy takes hold.

greekcoin would be a bad idea because it could easily crash due to shaky sentiment and people trading out of it. 

why not just use Bitcoin?  it's way more established, and I don't see any reason to believe some alt coin would gain more users faster.

Yanis has already given an answer to the main question of this thread:

See http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2014/02/15/bitcoin-a-flawed-currency-blueprint-with-a-potentially-useful-application-for-the-eurozone/

Imagine Yanis Varoufakis introduces his FT-coin idea or a Ripple-like system by April or May this year, mainly targeted at small and medium-sized businesses in Greece as a first step. This gives them the urgently needed liquidity allowing production to resume immidiately. One or two larger enterprises as well as thousands of computer-literate individuals will jump on the bandwagon. The other debt-ridden economies (Portugal, Ireland, ... ) cannot ignore the sudden drop in Greece's unemployment rate and start developing something similar, or even connect to the Greek blockchain. I'm pretty sure these systems could easily interact with our still fledgling Bitcoin ecosystem and would in turn give Bitcoin a substantial boost.

Well, this is very bold statement, but I don't agree.
Greece can't be saved by bitcoin.
They need to recover economy and find new jobs for their people.
What is the point in changing currency if people don't work?
If people can work and national economy become better, nobody will care much in what currency is their salary.

Just one week now boys. We'll see what the greek goverment really has to offer, 28 is the dead end.

Bitcoin puts them on a level playing field with USD… Bitcoin is essentially adopting all major fiat in one basket for now… They can have access to the global economy. Bitcoin is a boon to the economy. It opens up the economy, the rest is on the people of greece not the politicians. They can take their own future and wealth into their own hands. If they don't want to work, produce or educate themselves then, there is nothing we can do to help them, but bitcoin free's them from the debt systems, greeces systemic poor financial conditions are no longer the fault of the ECB essentially.

Max Keiser is addressing it in his program:

Keiser Report: Can Bitcoin save Greece? (E724)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s7UVY5yv7Y

Nothing can save Greece.

They want to consume more than they produce, forever.

There's no way to make that happen anywhere in the world

Bitcoin is always on the table as an option. Everyday, week, month that goes on and nothing happens with the debt in the country, the closer they come to defaulting on debt, banks shutting down, and bitcoin becomes an ever increasing option. Finance Minister is fully aware of bitcoin and crypto currency, they have the option to change the world here. The banks are also running out of options.. On the heals of Bank of englands article that came out the other day and the debt deals that keep falling apart, I can imagine Bitcoin is soon going to be on the tip of Yanis Varoufakis's tongue

Is there a better time for Andreas to visit Greece? {His country of origin, correct me if I am wrong?} They need the proper guidance to get out of this mess.

It's a pity hardware wallets like the Trezor is so expensive... It would be a great tool to help these people. {It will also solve the security concerns... I do not know of any hacking losses with a Trezor}

Companies like Coinbase / BitPay should also aggresively reach out to these people, to bring solutions to the lack of merchants who accepts Bitcoin in Greece.

This is not going to play out very good to the average to poor people in Greece.  >:(

lol dat troll ;D

Why Greece Should Not Switch To Bitcoin

In some discussions about Greece exiting the euro, it has been suggested that Greece should swap the euro for bitcoin. At first glance, bitcoin may appear to be the cure. But if the euro is the problem, switching to Bitcoin would be like trying to cure a headache with a bullet to the brain.

http://techcrunch.com/2015/02/28/why-greece-should-not-switch-to-bitcoin/?ncid=rss

It would be pretty bullish for Bitcoin if Greece adopted it ;D

nothing can save Greece, they are fU%£ed  ;D

After reading Yanis Varoufakis' blog posts I see a good chance that he introduces some other form of cryptocurrency e.g. his FTaxCoin (http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2014/02/15/bitcoin-a-flawed-currency-blueprint-with-a-potentially-useful-application-for-the-eurozone/) idea. This would draw a lot of international attention to the world of cryptos and would also be quite bullish for Bitcoin.

maybe Satoshi Nakamoto and Bitcoin technology is deus ex machina for Greek economy. I think in the next month we will see many suprises from Varoufakis and the greek goverment.

They don't have the balls needed to be insane enough to accept Bitcoin... the first that does it is risking a lot since its experimental.

This is one of the best posts in a this thread. Followed by the suggestion for them to create their own crypto coin or even adapt a coin besides bitcoin, hint there are several with good security to choose from.


However, if greece wants to save themselves then they should take a page from iceland. Put the bankers and politicians who caused the mess in jail. The greece debt is a fraud against their people. Jail the fucking bankers, like iceland did. Does iceland need bitcoin to save iceland?

if greece leaves the eurozone, shortly portuguese, spain, italy, france will follow
the end of united europe will come

and why germany refuses the return of their loan of 476 Bilion Reichsmark to greece taken in second world war ?

Lol, tons of Greece people are legit poor these days, they can't even eat and pay basic necesities, how do they want to consume more than they want to produce if they can't even meet basic needs.

Yes their economy is crap and capital controls are at an all time high.

Its very difficult to import anything and or to move money where you want to….

Have you heard of auroacoin… It was a good idea and still is, perhaps a few years to early and employed in the wrong or rushed way.

This is why they need to walk away from the euro while adopting a debt free currency.. You make it sound like the mess throughout the euro, not just greece is going to go away if greece can somehow pay its debts… that is nonsense, they might be able to kick the can down the road by a few more years but I'm not sure who benefits except from a very small pool of bankers, who for all i can drown at the bottom of. Eventually everyone will go hungry at this rate.

Greece today is a direct view of the ongoing divorce between capitalism and democracy. All things considered I would have expected much more violence.

Or maybe Greece is just the tip of a monster iceberg globally. Is anyone still steering this ship? Methinks not.

...

Beliathon

Greece may be just getting warmed up.  Historically, countries can fall a long way down until they hit bottom.  The violence may come later.

I would characterize Greece's plight NOT as a failure of Capitalism because it was never tried in Greece.  Greece has had a corrupt oligarchy running the place...  If I had had Greek in-laws, there would have been NO WAY we could have built a business, from scratch, to the success we have had in PERU.

*   *   *

+ 1 for your observation that a monster global iceberg may be lurking...

The rest of Europe is not looking good either (ex-Germany).  The USA has its own problems that are likely to get worse (IMO).

Japan is very weak.  Even China has big problems not often recognized by casual observers.

I like the way you think...  ;)

The problem with this, most bankers are backed by government and politicians are voted by the public. The people should elect the right people and they will keep the bankers in place.

Your "vote" is your strongest tool to correct the wrongs in your country.

If you throw all of them in jail, you will create a experience vacuume, that needs to be filled with unknown new entities, at possibly higher salaries.

Not all of them are corrupt, rather identify the corrupt individuals and get rid of them to set the example to the rest. 

I have been trying to get blockchains and Bitcoin going in Albania too. If you think property rights are a problem in Greece, you have not seen their neighbors to the West.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_03/03/2015_547856

Instead of stimulating business growth they now want to waste time and $$$ to analyze bank accounts of the unemployed?  There will ALWAYS be people who cheat the system.  Implement a system that creates an acceptable amount of "tax slippage" and move on, you will never be able to collect every bit of taxes.

When will citizens start demanding their elected PUBLIC officials start using a PUBLIC ledger for expenditures?