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Title: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: cafucafucafu on February 20, 2015, 03:36:40 AM 21,000,000 * 100,000,000 = 2,100,000,000,000,000 Satoshis
This isn't enough for a global currency. Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: Morecoin Freeman on February 20, 2015, 03:41:06 AM I think I do not agree.
Anyway, we have enough decimal places for now. In the future bitcoins source code can always be updated/improved. Just like fiat currencies got updates over time. Nothing to worry about here. Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: R2D221 on February 20, 2015, 03:54:44 AM 21,000,000 * 100,000,000 = 2,100,000,000,000,000 Satoshis This isn't enough for a global currency. Why do you think so? Do you have a source of the amount of world currencies? Because I couldn't find any... Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: deepestfear on February 20, 2015, 03:55:14 AM There is no reason more cannot be added if needed, or so I understand
Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: MineForeman.com on February 20, 2015, 03:57:30 AM You may be right, after all there are 134,000,000,000,000 US cents in circulation so there are only ~15 times more satoshis than that!
Lucky we can upgrade the decimal point precision isn't it? Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: R2D221 on February 20, 2015, 03:58:48 AM This has been discussed before. It appears that the total amount of bitcoins was enough to cover M1 in 2008.
I remember this discussion, actually. Finney, Satoshi, and I discussed how divisible a Bitcoin ought to be. Satoshi had already more or less decided on a 50-coin per block payout with halving every so often to add up to a 21M coin supply. Finney made the point that people should never need any currency division smaller than a US penny, and then somebody (I forget who) consulted some oracle somewhere like maybe Wikipedia and figured out what the entire world's M1 money supply at that time was. We debated for a while about which measure of money Bitcoin most closely approximated; but M2, M3, and so on are all for debt-based currencies, so I agreed with Finney that M1 was probably the best measure. 21Million, times 10^8 subdivisions, meant that even if the whole word's money supply were replaced by the 21 million bitcoins the smallest unit (we weren't calling them Satoshis yet) would still be worth a bit less than a penny, so no matter what happened -- even if the entire economy of planet earth were measured in Bitcoin -- it would never inconvenience people by being too large a unit for convenience. Not sure if it still applies today, though. Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: Q7 on February 20, 2015, 04:09:09 AM That's enough for now. I don't think we have seen any shortage thus far. When the coins have been fully distributed, it's still not too late the revise the decimal point.
Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: inBitweTrust on February 20, 2015, 04:11:51 AM This is a wonderful problem to have that already has multiple trouble free solutions. Add 3 more decimal places with a soft fork and/or sidechains(sorry for repeating this cliche).
A hard fork isn't even needed. Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: Brewins on February 20, 2015, 06:20:53 AM 21,000,000 * 100,000,000 = 2,100,000,000,000,000 Satoshis This isn't enough for a global currency. we refuse to reach moon even with so few digits. Let's think about it when BTC gets closer to be a global currency Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: pooya87 on February 20, 2015, 06:29:38 AM 21,000,000 * 100,000,000 = 2,100,000,000,000,000 Satoshis this can always be changed, i mean the updates can change the amount of decimal places at anytime if necessary. also there is still a long way to become a "Global" currency This isn't enough for a global currency. Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: s.mouse on February 20, 2015, 09:22:07 AM I believe it is enough, but if it isn't like others have said more places can be added. Besides, the bigger the demand of bitcoin the higher the value bitcoin will become so even 1 satoshi could be worth something in the future.
Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: Cryddit on February 20, 2015, 09:27:42 AM The penny argument was why the smallest unit is no bigger than 1e-8 bitcoin; On the other side of it, there is also an important reason why it couldn't be smaller than 1e-8. IEEE "double" floating point format has 53-bit precision. So if the total number of units had been too much more than 21e14, then people doing math with doubles could get wrong answers due to rounding errors.
I didn't think this was particularly important at the time because using a float format to represent money units is STOOPID in the first place. But apparently it's more important than I thought; In several scripting languages (cough Javascript cough) it turns out that it's actually a bit difficult to use anything else. EDIT: I got some of the numbers blatantly wrong the first time I wrote this... Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: Eastwind on February 20, 2015, 09:35:22 AM 21,000,000 * 100,000,000 = 2,100,000,000,000,000 Satoshis this can always be changed, i mean the updates can change the amount of decimal places at anytime if necessary. also there is still a long way to become a "Global" currency This isn't enough for a global currency. It is enough for the time being. We can always add more when time comes. Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: picolo on February 20, 2015, 09:52:21 AM 21,000,000 * 100,000,000 = 2,100,000,000,000,000 Satoshis This isn't enough for a global currency. They can add more if necesserray. If 1 satoshi = 1 cent 1 BTC = 2.1millions $ Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: adamas on February 20, 2015, 10:03:06 AM Bitcoin wasn't designed to be a "global currency".
Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: poncho32 on February 20, 2015, 10:38:43 AM 21,000,000 * 100,000,000 = 2,100,000,000,000,000 Satoshis This isn't enough for a global currency. They can add more if necesserray. If 1 satoshi = 1 cent 1 BTC = 2.1millions $ That's a good point. How long until 1 BTC = $2.1millions ? I don't think a bitcoin will be worth that much for quite a long time. Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: maurya78 on February 20, 2015, 12:09:01 PM This is a non-issue in my opinion
It is well understood that adding decimal places is pretty simple to implement if ever needed Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: franky1 on February 20, 2015, 12:41:22 PM would be 2,100 trillion units (2 quadrillion)
2,100,000,000,000,000 more then enough.... unless you a fan of a one world currency where all 7billion people only have one choice. i personally see bitcoin as a free choice and not something that should be forced onto the entire population via world wide regulation. even if 20 million people use bitcoin thats more then some fiat countries population. even if 70million people (0.1% world population) that is still more then the UK's british pound coverage even if 5% of the world use bitcoin, thats still more than the american population. bitcoin does not need 100% coverage. just like dollar only has 5% coverage and Yuan has nearly 20% Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: R2D221 on February 20, 2015, 02:35:11 PM Bitcoin wasn't designed to be a "global currency". I disagree. Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: inBitweTrust on February 20, 2015, 02:43:50 PM Bitcoin wasn't designed to be a "global currency". Satoshi disagreed with this: Quote from: Satoshi Nakamoto At first, most users would run network nodes, but as the network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to specialists with server farms of specialized hardware. A server farm would only need to have one node on the network and the rest of the LAN connects with that one node. The bandwidth might not be as prohibitive as you think. A typical transaction would be about 400 bytes (ECC is nicely compact). Each transaction has to be broadcast twice, so lets say 1KB per transaction. Visa processed 37 billion transactions in FY2008, or an average of 100 million transactions per day. That many transactions would take 100GB of bandwidth, or the size of 12 DVD or 2 HD quality movies, or about $18 worth of bandwidth at current prices. If the network were to get that big, it would take several years, and by then, sending 2 HD movies over the Internet would probably not seem like a big deal. http://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/emails/cryptography/2/ https://bitcoinfoundation.org/forum/index.php?/topic/54-my-first-message-to-satoshi/ Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: AtheistAKASaneBrain on February 20, 2015, 03:17:13 PM LOL it's more than enough. Even if every single citizen ever it would be enough to run the economy. The 1 btc holders would be like billonaires tho.
Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: Beyonce on February 20, 2015, 03:44:19 PM Bitcoin wasn't designed to be a "global currency". I disagree. I think bitcoin was designed so that it could be changed or tweaked slightly as and when needed so satoshi was clearly forward thinking. If more decimal places are needed they will be added but for the time being and near future I think we'll do fine with the current number. Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: croato on February 20, 2015, 04:00:22 PM There will be more decimal places if needed, i dont see problem here.
Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: manselr on February 20, 2015, 04:05:47 PM I think Andreas said once that you could theorically run the entire btc economy off a single bitcoin.
Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: RodeoX on February 20, 2015, 04:08:09 PM Bitcoin is like a big apple pie. There is always enough pie as long as your not hung up on the size of the slice.
Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: koelen3 on February 20, 2015, 07:09:26 PM would be 2,100 trillion units (2 quadrillion) 2,100,000,000,000,000 more then enough.... unless you a fan of a one world currency where all 7billion people only have one choice. i personally see bitcoin as a free choice and not something that should be forced onto the entire population via world wide regulation. even if 20 million people use bitcoin thats more then some fiat countries population. even if 70million people (0.1% world population) that is still more then the UK's british pound coverage even if 5% of the world use bitcoin, thats still more than the american population. bitcoin does not need 100% coverage. just like dollar only has 5% coverage and Yuan has nearly 20% That's pretty good! i wonder how much of world's population is on it now I think 0.1% (70 mil) might be using it , or am saying alot ? :-\ Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: Stephen Gornick on February 20, 2015, 07:53:37 PM This isn't enough for a global currency. Spending "dust" or microtransactions incurs fees. As blocks start filling up, amounts less than 0.001 even will become economically unspendable -- nonetheless 0.00000001 bitcoin. Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: oblivi on February 20, 2015, 08:02:07 PM This has been addressed already and the conclusion that i gathered was its not a problem
Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: CarnageTR on February 20, 2015, 10:15:07 PM doesn't bitcoin becoma like a fiat if we add any other digit to it? theoritically we increase the number of usable subunites by doing that. if its not an inflation what it is then?
Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: calme on February 20, 2015, 10:29:09 PM The word "satoshi" as a denomination of currency sounds ridiculous. Too Japanese (i.e. not global) and draws too much attention to the fact that BTC was in a way created in Rothschildesque secrecy.
Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: R2D221 on February 20, 2015, 11:59:24 PM doesn't bitcoin becoma like a fiat if we add any other digit to it? theoritically we increase the number of usable subunites by doing that. if its not an inflation what it is then? It's different because, if I had 1000 units before the new decimal point, now I have 10000 units with Bitcoin. With fiat, I still have 1000 units. Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: CarnageTR on February 21, 2015, 06:01:53 PM doesn't bitcoin becoma like a fiat if we add any other digit to it? theoritically we increase the number of usable subunites by doing that. if its not an inflation what it is then? It's different because, if I had 1000 units before the new decimal point, now I have 10000 units with Bitcoin. With fiat, I still have 1000 units. its not quite diffrent. with new decimal you will add new bitcoins in the siytem. if you add 3 more decimals at once ditcoin could drop 1000 fold in one night. if bitcoin will become an international currency soma day its a big deal. Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: R2D221 on February 21, 2015, 06:07:40 PM doesn't bitcoin becoma like a fiat if we add any other digit to it? theoritically we increase the number of usable subunites by doing that. if its not an inflation what it is then? It's different because, if I had 1000 units before the new decimal point, now I have 10000 units with Bitcoin. With fiat, I still have 1000 units. its not quite diffrent. with new decimal you will add new bitcoins in the siytem. if you add 3 more decimals at once ditcoin could drop 1000 fold in one night. if bitcoin will become an international currency soma day its a big deal. No, it's not the same. You are not adding any new bitcoins at all. You just redefine one bitcoin to be 1000000000 units instead of 100000000, but the total number of bitcoins remains at 21 million. Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: DannyHamilton on February 21, 2015, 06:09:59 PM with new decimal you will add new bitcoins in the system. No. You don't. The total number of bitcoins remains exactly the same. The only thing that changes is the size of the pieces that you are using to pay for things. if you add 3 more decimals at once ditcoin could drop 1000 fold in one night. Or it could rise 1000 fold in one night. It is a volatile and risky experiment right now that is still in the very early stages of price discovery. It is difficult to predict how the market would be likely to react to a change in the divisibility of bitcoin. If we are being intellectually honest here though, it is rather unlikely to change 1000 fold in either direction from something as simple as modifying the divisibility. if bitcoin will become an international currency soma day its a big deal. Bitcoin is an international currency already. There are locations in many countries where it is accepted as payment. Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: oblivi on February 21, 2015, 06:55:55 PM The word "satoshi" as a denomination of currency sounds ridiculous. Too Japanese (i.e. not global) and draws too much attention to the fact that BTC was in a way created in Rothschildesque secrecy. it looks cool to me, im ok with japanese culture. What do you propose, bits??Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: DannyHamilton on February 21, 2015, 07:29:01 PM The word "satoshi" as a denomination of currency sounds ridiculous. Too Japanese (i.e. not global) and draws too much attention to the fact that BTC was in a way created in Rothschildesque secrecy. it looks cool to me, im ok with japanese culture. What do you propose, bits??I prefer "Nan" (short for nanobitcoins, but don't tell people that or they'll get scared by the technical sound of it). 1 Satoshi is 10 Nan. Since most people that like "bits" say that 1 bit = 100 Satoshi, that would mean that 1 bit is 1,000 Nan (or 1 KiloNan, or 1 KNan). As such, bitcoin amounts could be written as follows: 10 Nan = 0.00000001 BTC (or 0.01 bits, or 1 Satoshi) 1 KNan = 0.000001 BTC (or 1 bits, or 100 Satoshi) 1 MNan = 0.001 BTC or 1000 bits, or 100000 Satoshi) 1 GNan = 1 BTC or 1000000 bits, or 100000000 Satoshi) 1 TNan = 1000 BTC 1 PNan = 1000000 BTC 21 PNan = 21000000 BTC (there will never be this many bitcoins in existence). Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: Cryddit on February 21, 2015, 07:36:58 PM No. You don't. The total number of bitcoins remains exactly the same. The only thing that changes is the size of the pieces that you are using to pay for things. Or it could rise 1000 fold in one night. It is a volatile and risky experiment right now that is still in the very early stages of price discovery. It is difficult to predict how the market would be likely to react to a change in the divisibility of bitcoin. If we are being intellectually honest here though, it is rather unlikely to change 1000 fold in either direction from something as simple as modifying the divisibility. Change in divisibility should have an effect only if the old, or new, divisibilities are on different sides of a stable equilibrium. One satoshi is presently far below the fees of a single transaction. Whatever equilibria exist, I would expect none to be less than 1/10 x typical transaction fees. So a change in divisibility to any other minimum unit also less than 1/10 x typical transaction fees should have no measurable effect on value. Just an opinion, I guess - but Id be astonished if there were any effect. Cryddit Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: najzenmajsen on February 22, 2015, 02:06:22 PM The word "satoshi" as a denomination of currency sounds ridiculous. Too Japanese (i.e. not global) and draws too much attention to the fact that BTC was in a way created in Rothschildesque secrecy. it looks cool to me, im ok with japanese culture. What do you propose, bits??I prefer "Nan" (short for nanobitcoins, but don't tell people that or they'll get scared by the technical sound of it). 1 Satoshi is 10 Nan. Since most people that like "bits" say that 1 bit = 100 Satoshi, that would mean that 1 bit is 1,000 Nan (or 1 KiloNan, or 1 KNan). As such, bitcoin amounts could be written as follows: 10 Nan = 0.00000001 BTC (or 0.01 bits, or 1 Satoshi) 1 KNan = 0.000001 BTC (or 1 bits, or 100 Satoshi) 1 MNan = 0.001 BTC or 1000 bits, or 100000 Satoshi) 1 GNan = 1 BTC or 1000000 bits, or 100000000 Satoshi) 1 TNan = 1000 BTC 1 PNan = 1000000 BTC 21 PNan = 21000000 BTC (there will never be this many bitcoins in existence). Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: hashman on February 22, 2015, 11:42:00 PM The word "satoshi" as a denomination of currency sounds ridiculous. Too Japanese (i.e. not global) and draws too much attention to the fact that BTC was in a way created in Rothschildesque secrecy. Just curious, what is it you think about a completely public money supply verifiable by every citizen of the earth with every unit impossible to counterfeit that you call "Rothschildesque secrecy"? Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: Cryddit on February 23, 2015, 06:26:05 PM I think he's just being pissy about not knowing who wrote the code. He'd like for there to be someone to blame in case of a problem, and the "satoshi" identity just doesn't work for him.
Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: adamas on March 02, 2015, 09:50:41 AM With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: viboracecata on March 03, 2015, 06:13:44 AM If the global world has accept bitcoin as payment, then we can append more 0 to the end, and give a fork, that's easy work
Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: toytoboy on April 01, 2015, 05:04:47 AM 21,000,000 * 100,000,000 = 2,100,000,000,000,000 Satoshis This isn't enough for a global currency. Why not ? What do you think if 1 BTC= 20,000 USD Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: Amph on April 01, 2015, 06:49:25 AM how 21 quadrillion are not enough for everyone in this world?
the problem is more about if 1 satoshi could reach 1 dollar in value Title: Re: We dont have enough decimal places. Post by: vankoovo on April 01, 2015, 07:20:12 AM how 21 quadrillion are not enough for everyone in this world? the problem is more about if 1 satoshi could reach 1 dollar in value Great ! I like your answer ! +1 |