Bitcoin Forum

I know this might be a bad thing for bitcoin but i am really curious to know why don't rich people buy like 10 million $ worth of bitcoin, then the price will automatically go up and sell those bitcoin instantly? even if the price only rise by 5 % that's 500 000 $ profit in just a matter of minutes

also with altcoins that have an even lower marketcap this would work even better,so why dont we see big money players pumping and dumping?

It's simple: if they buy for 10 million, the price will rise enormously.

However, if they want to sell it instantly, there is no market to buy the coins.

It would still be considered extremely high-risk and few people that rich trust Bitcoin enough to play around with $10 million. I don't know, maybe there are...

The price will rise because you are the one buying...

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pedrog and josepht have it right.

Just the act of buying a large amount will raise the price before and during the purchase.

Similarly, as the "rich guy" would try to dump his LARGE amount of BTC, he would depress the price in the selling process.

Sometimes, buying or selling LARGE AMOUNTS does not work well...

my example may be a little extreme but say 500 000$ ,if price rise 5% that's 25 000 profit and trader would have no problem to sell them,on localbitcoins there are lots of sell offer for up to 50 000$, trader could just open 10 trade simultaneously and sold all his bitcoins, he could even use different markets or sell cheaper than other sellers he would still make a huge profit


take for instance an altcoin with a 10 000$ market cap someone could buy 10 000$ worth of a this coins and double the market cap and value will rise alot, even if trader can't sell all the coins instantly due to lack of demand he will still be able to sell in a longer period of time and make profit wouldn't he?

That is a very simplistic way of looking at a market, and not at all how it works in real life.  If it were that simple it would be done; the fact that it doesn't happen should answer your question before you even ask it.

care to elaborate?

do you mean depress the price if he doesn't sell everything in one single trade?

how would buying a large amount raise the price before the purchase?

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albert11

Just the fact that there would be a LARGE buyer looking to buy would get the attention of skilled traders.  This concept is one that many stock traders know about, it is one of the ideas behind High Frequency Trading ("HFT").  Just the act of starting to LOOK to buy will attract the attention of skilled traders...

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Big players who want to make money (and who would be satisfied to make it slowly) would likely do better just to buy gradually, and then "HODL".

Once the price goes up enough (probable IMO), then sell them gradually. 

Or buy gold with the BTC. 

:)

hmm..not convinced this would increase the price before buying,anyone could act as if he was going to buy millions and be a charlatan would this increase the price? 

I think  it is a touchy subject within bitcoin community and most people don't like those who pump and dump..but i don't see any obvious flaws in doing so and making profit if done properly, there always going to be people to buy your coins even if the price rises, day trader for example and you could spread your btc in different markets and initiate a sell or a buy order simultaneously.

Only worth attempting when there are trustworthy exchanges. With the present bunch the likelihood is that they'd front run you and come out on top.

If it were as easy as the scenario you outline to make a huge fortune people would be doing it/would already have done it.  The fact that it hasn't happened and won't happen answers your question: no one does this because that's not how the system works.

I know people don't do it and wanted to know why? and how does the system work?   

yeah good point, i wonder why no exchanges allow users to have their own private key, would be nice to see a site like blockchain.info where you can back up your key but for actual trading, do you know if any site like this exist already?

Not to my knowledge. I'm sure there are properly run exchanges right now but there's no way of knowing. Once Gemini and Coinbase are properly up and running they'll probably be accountable for that type of behaviour.

They better be. We can't afford a single "ups, got my shit hacked" with Gemini or Coinbase, that would be terrible.

Do some math and imagine buying up $10 million worth of bitcoin to what price would that take you?

Then add up the entire buy walls which will show you how much you could get if you cleared it out (sold in to) but doing so will kill the price in the process.

In short it will be extremely difficult to achieve what you talk about, in 'theory' that would be nice but not really possible as far as i am aware, But you could do it with a smaller amount and still make awesome money just like whales are doing every day  :D 

There are no buying market and they ended by sell it for cheap. many people waiting for next bitcoin bubble, and ready to dump it after price skyrocketing. Because they hold expensive coin for too long.
Anyway this is risky moves, if they want to manipulate market, better in stocks

Well, it would be stupid to sell it off emmediatly.  ;)

You would need a lot more to have a lasting impact on all of the exchanges, but it would make a difference, if you hoard them for a while and release them slowly back onto the exchanges.

The value will increase, because there are less availlable coins in circulation, but as more coins are sold on exchanges, the value will drop. {New coins are mined every day}

At one stage {final stage} of releasing it back, you would have more coins than was bought at the start, and the price might even be lower than the price you bought it for.

This is only in theory... other people might buy the new coins and could also have bought loads of other coins, and the price might skyrocket for your hoarded coins.  ;)

I suspect that groups of well-off people can do (probably do) exactly what you're saying. Whales uniting together to gobble the little weaklings up.

isn't this what people want? if nothing happens people complain and say it's boring.
ride the waves and make profit.

I wouldn't be surprised if it were already happening just at a modest pace.  It's already being raped pretty badly and would benefit from regulation (trading that is).

I love a good pump dump as many others do but at the same time people can get hurt in them if they dont know what their doing. Most pump dumps cause nothing but problems or end up killing the coin off.

In altcoin, check bittrex.com market. As far i know, bittrex listed many scam coin which cost the developer. Sure, i mean, Cycle.

In Bitcoin, i think karpeles has a lot of Bitcoin in their pocket since 'Mt.gox Collapse'.

So, i mean.. they can monopolize market.

Cmiiw.

Pump and dump has been used regularly on bitcoin... its just that now even they are bored of this market.  :D

Not just on Bitcoin.... lots of other commodities too.  ;) { I know maize farmers who play "pump n dump" with huge volumes of maize in Silo's to get the best profit on markets }  

I think it just got more difficult to do it lately.... You need a lot of money or BTC to shift the price on all of these exchanges. It is not unlikely that a group of whales are playing with bots to manipulate the day trading volumes to do smaller "pump n dumps"

Ask yourselve this question - If you had the money or BTC, would you have done it? { I think most people would  :D }

as long as the majority of bitcoin are in a few hands, p&d will occur all the time, plenty of manipulation in any exchange are always showed up

I don't know what or how the rich people think but I do have a feeling when they invest, they need to have some form of assurance that the investment can give a high potential yield and return. If they execute a single buy order something like 10 mil in short period of time, sure enough bitcoin price will rise, but they will probably end up having to buy bitcoin at higher price. So you will need to convince them.

indeed , people always want what they THINK they dont want. humanity man.. : )
OP , this is already happening incase you havent noticed ;)

Noticed a long time ago what OP said many big hitters are coming in but getting middle men to buy up conis at a low price and effectively while not disturbing the price much maybe a little increase here and theri but nothing to indicate a massive spike up.

The rich didn't get there by investing based on blind belief.
They need to be shown strong reasons that bitcoin is a good investment.

I am a lover of the old pumps we all should be as it has made the price of bitcoin where it is today, people should never invest more than they can afford to lose that is the number one rule and if they stuck with that they would not get hurt per say obviously would not be nice but that's the game they chose to play so unlucky lol. The only pumps that cause problems are those done by really greedy groups who have no intention of pumping that coin again 'most' pumps leave the coin in better shape than they started i know the ones i have been involved in have. Good luck my little pumpers  :D

That wouldn't just happen. Imagine if the price rose that much, there would be no markets for it to be bought, because users will also try to sell their own holdings, thus depressing the buying side of the market.

And if they can't find a strong reason to believe that it is indeed a good investment, they will try to innovate and exploit so that in the end they get the most profits.

They would realize it's not worth dumping the coins once they have them. Plus you would need the volume to instantly dump.

If they bought 10M coins in one purchase their purchase price would have to rise significantly. If they bought that many coins in phases the price would rise gradually as their 10M continually exceeds the available coins being sold.

A pump and dump really only works if you buy your coins today, then try to get a bunch of other people to run up the price based on fake or misleading news, at which point you sell.

Op. but it is exactly as you stated. Pump and dump are happening over and over again. Maybe it is not so visible anymore, but from time to time you can observe huge bitcoin price drop and the rise. The reason why rich bitcoiners are not doing this on daily basis is - as I assume concern about overall price stability. If I had 50.000 coins and more I wouldn't matter to me if I can earn something fast  but rather long-time stability of the market.

That wouldn't work. Selling "instantly" means selling at market price. Which means each coin you sell would be sold for less. You would just create a dump after your pump.

We still can't judge in reallity if this is a pump or dump price look almost stable at 270 for a week the next
could be another increase not a pump because those days bitcoin users increased too .

I don't know of any billionaires like that who would be so loose with 10M on a risky investment - land, sure, gambling....maybe??? perhaps a saudi prince - i think they probably dollar cost average it slowly to blend in with the rest of us, just my guesswork with no real science behind it.

That tells me that is where manipulators are keeping it/want it to be now as it has never been stable in the whole time i have been involved, last it stayed stable around 220-240  now this looks like they want to increase slowly in little bits, just my opinion of course.

I would rather stay in a boring and little increase rather than be part of a small wave that may end up devouring me. Sure, prices can be stagnant within days but it's better than seeing a bubble burst out within my eyes. It scares off prospective adopters and users.  >:(

Perhaps good pr? Idk, but it stays within $270 for almost a week. We cannot simply say that this is a pump because there are no suspicious activity happening around the markets (?) Just a guess too, though.

Investors now would not buy 10 million dollars worth of bitcoin because there are just not enough market for it as bitcoin is going downwards. Cryptocurrency I believe will be the future for the economy but bitcoin is not.

Cannot tell you are getting paid for your posts lol but anyway if you have no understood bitcoin  was always a pump and dump the  there is not much I cam add here. Good luck with your sig campaigns :)

Because who the hell is gonna buy all those coins? Btc rise because people buy it, I know if people do that, the price will rise, but I don't see a market for that much. But who knows, maybe there are people doing that right now.  :)

It is not as simple as you think.  The fact that it doesn't happen itself answers your question. And obviously it would be considered extremely risky to buy 10  million $ worth of bitcoin. And only a few people who are that rich may trust bitcoin that much to invest soo much into it.

Exactly . Not many rich people  are aware of the capability of bitcoin . And many of them don't trust it enough  to invest such a large amount like 10000 $ in it. Especially when bitcoin is facing such a crisis like having  people losing huge amounts of money and the prices being very low , etc crap.

Yes, they are holding really expensively bought coins for too long and it becomes a liability than an asset to them so they try to sale it quickly. It is a very risky move, let alone the chances of manipulating the market. It is a far better decision to try make any strong financial effects which might affect the market by investing in stocks, as that's where the real money is.

If those people suddenly just buy millions or billions worth of btc and selling them instantly when the price goes up, will that not affect the economy? That will crash the market lol. And who would suddenly buy that many bitcoins, there's no one to sell it to.

Put a large sell wall of 10000 coins at 270 and small buying order of 100 coins at 269, after a while you can collect some amount of panic coins

I also dont understand this.

If i would have that money i would buy step by step bitcoin worth of 1 million dollar.

And after 5 years the price will be easy at 25.000 Dollar or more and i make from 1 million - 100 million dollar.  :)

that if your estimate is correct, what if five years from now, bitcoin prices will come down?

Anything could happen, what if we see a down year of 150 to 200 each btc, is only really to the new adopters and supporters at some point to keep up with the price the market is defenndly volatile and open to manipulation to anyone with a good thousands bitcoin.

that's why traders prefer to play not in long term, because it be harder to predict, better to play with today swing and invest a ton with xxxx leverage

usually they play in the same range, until it become too predictable, then they move on another one

Rich people these days are just really lazy and don't have any interest in bitcoin. But seriously they probably have better stuff to spend their money on.

10 million $. Don't you agree with the fact that it is a huge amount. Why would the rich guys trust with so much money on bitcoin? It does involve a huge risk. Since people generally put their faith in the assured bank market.

yea many of the rich people now in the world are rich conservative rich famalies that only invest with family bankers and so on, lets say bitcoiners are part of a new economic society that most rich people don't like to be apart of .

I think once the old people die and the younger generations inherit their millions, all those young guys will start seeing the value in owning BTC and investing in BTC based companies and all that old money will start getting inside the BTC ecosystem.

That's not true, rich people think the blockchain technology is too complicated for them to invest their money in, but I know a lot of rich people that are putting their money into different Altcoins.

The future of bitcoins is all a coin toss. The coin has already been tossed up in the air, it is mid air right now and all the people have their jaw open while this coin swings in the air, everybody is expecting a head or a tail, everybody has a different scenario and expectation. As much supporters bitcoin have, the haters are equal. All want it to either surpass all currencies or fail as an investment, for their future benefits. Let's wait till the coin lands :)

This is a clear misunderstanding. A lot of rich people have their money on bitcoin, a lot of them don't. Do all businessmen proudly tell where their money comes and goes? No? Oh yes, that's called business and it happens secretly. Maybe rich people don't like waiting, maybe they have better alternatives we don't know about and maybe they just don't care enough about it. Eventually, they come. They all do, they all will.

are you sure that many rich people have invested in bitcoin? Sure, Warren Buffett might not give a fuck about it but other big investors do? yeah? if said investors really invested their money in btc, then why is it not affecting the trade market daily? I don't think such investors will hold, I think trading might be a common thing for them then, then why is not major changes taking place often?

If somebody have 10 million, He or She  dont need invest on anything. ;)

maybe all rich people is silent ig they have invested in bitcoin. who will said to public or to other people if you can get profit. just wait and see, what happen in future with bitcoin

10 million is surprisingly little for a truly rich person. Regardless, rich people still invest their money. Who couldn't use a few more dollars?

Well,

     10 million maintained on a traditional saving account  at rate 3% anually are 300k of interest.....It is a good amount for only keep it. ;)

That's sch an irrational thing to state. If I was a renowned investor with a good image in the market, why wouldn't I boast about my investment, why would I even invest in something I would have shame talking about? The more famous investors open their mouth and their hands towards the bitcoin community, the more bitcoin is benefited, which will in turn benefit them too.

And with great interests come great taxes. Saving is a nice practice but it can also be considered as a liability if it is not bringing in new assets. Always think about how to improve and expand the boundaries which are set right now. Investing is always fun for rich people, because they use the money they wouldn't mind losing. Dumb investors put all in line and lose big. I always like to win smart than win big :)

Warren Buffett is scared from bitcoin, he know that it is too volatile even for him, i'm sure this is the reason why he don't want to invest
i know that the brothers, twins right? did invested in bitcoin, with their new exchange, which is coming
but i'm not aware of anyone else that is big enough, which has invested in bitcoin, maybe this is the reason why the market isn't moving strongly?

If you get the chance, Digital Gold by Nathaniel Popper makes for a very interesting read. Quite a few obscure heavy hitters bought large amounts but this was a long time ago. I guess they're sitting on it just like everyone else.

Really a good idea. I haven't thought it. But I have some questions. Are you sure that the market can afford such transaction? Are in market so many bitcoins? And it will be possible to buy all those immediately? And to sell those immediately? Because if bought or sold gradually the price will increase gradually and will decrease also gradually and this set in doubt the profit.

If you ask to those questions maybe I will do another post.

Can be done with less than $500,000 problem is the 1+ year of constant sell-offs, hard to make a move in opposite direction.

And while this coin turns around in the air with all the people having their jaws wide open, jostlers and hustlers of all types and kinds are emptying these people's pockets, lol...

Are you sure that the market can afford such transaction?

To be effective in pump and dumps, people involved should carefully study if there are liquidity/money flowing in and out of that certain market and are there really people interested in that certain market. You just can't throw in a large chunk of money with a market that has no activity and expect to get a huge return from it.

Are in market so many bitcoins?

It is safe to say that not all the bitcoins in existence are being actively traded in the markets, given that a large portion of it has remained untouched for several years now, including those coins that belong to Satoshi and other isolated cases in which coins were lost because of forgotten passphrases/passwords. To get a hint of how many bitcoins are being traded, check the different exchanges and add up all their volume in terms of BTC. That would give you a rough estimate of how many coins are in the markets.

And it will be possible to buy all those immediately?

No, it wouldn't be possible. A good trader knows how to build up price and get others aboard the train. If he/she just randomly picks a coin and throw in large amounts of money in it to have a massive boost in price, you shouldn't expect people to follow suit, because the massive price increase is clearly a sign of someone manipulating and playing with the markets.

And to sell those immediately?

No. Refer to the answer above.

Thanks for the explanations. Are logical, complete and helpful for someone who have in mind to do this transaction. Some of you answers was imagined (knew) by me (the last two). But it was my curiosity for the answer of the OP who made me wrote those. Me for sure don't have (had) in mind to do such transaction. If I had those money wouldn't stay in front of my computer all the day but will do even some other things (more diverse).  ;)

Since I like your post I want to know your thoughts (if you want to do this naturally) for another my post. You can find that here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1191118.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1191118.0)

Easier o make money on alcoins than bicoin itslf
Pnds happn daily