Bitcoin Forum

Following a storm in late-June extended power blackouts hit the east coast.  Then this week were the enormous back-to-back power blackouts in India affecting over half a billion people,  Last year there was a notable blackout in southern California.

In a power blackout scenario, isn't bitcoin about the only payment method other than cash-in-your pocket that still remains functional?   Most mobile towers have battery backup for a period of time, many with generators as well, I presume.  

So even if cablemodem, dsl, and telephone lines have battery backup and are still online, most people don't have battery backup at home and couldn't use the internet from a plugged in computer or after the notepad/tablet batteries run low.

Most ATMs would still be without power, and most retailers would close or even they stayed open on emergency lighting they might not have sufficient battery backup to keep their point-of-sale systems on.

Some people might have a smartphone that is still online, but at the store they are used to swiping their card, so even though a mobile app might be available for P2P payments, at the retailer they are unable to be served.  That mobile data connection doesn't give them much with present-day payment systems in a blackout.

Two people with a bitcoin app on mobile are already prepared for this blackout scenario though.

The bitcoiners who are prepared could end up being among the few people with the ability to make electronic payments in such a scenario.

When merchants who can no longer accept credit or debit cards then absorb all the circulating cash and with no ATMs operating, then an individual with a fat bitcoin wallet could act as a local exchange to the merchant -- converting some of that cash for bitcoins so that it can circulate. The individual then is able to use cash to purchase supplies and other needs with that scarce fiat.

Decentralized P2P likely does disasters better than centralized systems, such as our electronic payment and banking networks.

Am I painting bitcoin to favorably here, or is a bitcoin mobile wallet (and a solar charger for your mobile) just one more thing to add to the emergency planning checklist?

If that whole Bitcoincard meshnet thing works out, then local blackouts be damned.  Of course, an electronics destroying solar flare could pose a problem.

You can always keep a copy of the blockchain on a VHS tape. They can store up to ~4.5GB (usually around 3.5GB).

That's why I'm waiting so badly for the bitcoincard. Or a likewise device.

We need this. Or I'm turning a bear   ;D

Many cc terminals talk to their networks via gprs (or a descendant), and run on batteries. Just like cell phones. I don't see any big advantage of Bitcoin in the realm of resilience. If/when mobile  mesh solutions emerge, it'll be a different story.

I believe this is the key to your answer and to the future stability of our web.

Bitcoin does no better.  Even bitcard does not better.  At some point you need to connect to the wider internet.  If your bitcoin merchant terminal can do that then so can your CC merchant terminal.  If it can't then unless you plan on accepting unconfirmed transactions which may be double spends you are just as dead in the water.

It does if we can begin moving bitcoins offline.

I'm really thinking we may see physical bitcoins in the style of Casacius physical bitcoins (https://www.casascius.com/) where a private key with a value is hidden in a coin in a tamper evident way. All we need is a company to undertake the project seriously.

How many of you would accept a Casacius physical bitcoin as having value if someone tossed you one and you saw the hologram was immaculate. Exactly. We might not accept an extremely high value, but for smaller values we would be fairly confident in it because we believe the project was carried out by a trusted party in a trustworthy way.

The only level of doubt would be the level to which we think the hidden value might be compromised. Casascius coins are a proof-of-concept, which can leave holes of doubt... small ones, but doubts no less. There only needs to be a company that can mass produce coins in such way as to remove most any other doubt.

I think that's possible. And if it happens then Bitcoin certainly does keep ticking, the same as any other physical cash.

To me that's cash (or gold, or barter), not Bitcoin.

Technically, you're right since Bitcoin (capitalized 'B') refers to the open-source project or the payment network it enables. Whereas bitcoins (lowercase 'b') refer to the currency of the network.

So I'll rephrase my sentence:

And if it happens then bitcoins certainly do keep trading, the same as any other physical cash.

Ummmm ElectroMAGNETICPulse

Plus VHS really sucks as a storage medium.  Many of my old tapes (high quality Japanese media) really did not last, with tape stretching, magnetic loss and general degradation they are almost not watchable.  I can pull out a 20 year old CD and they work fine. 

The Electromagnetic pulse danger is negligible, since there are plenty of people who could revive the system with a NAND flash device. Geeks are smart enough to think ahead and put the NAND flash into a grounded area away from the pulse.

I know I will.   :) The whole bitcoin folder is around 30 MB ( before compression even ) in size at the moment, and easy to put on the cheapest thumbdrive.

You will need a blockchain, though. Or someone you trust, who has a copy, and whom you can communicate with, and who has connections to other peers.

I believe that is included, if I read this right:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_chain


If I am wrong, someone please correct me.

I guess the difference I was thinking was a merchant can use a mobile or tablet (battery powered devices) to being accepting payment through bitcoin whereas the merchant POS and CC terminal might not have battery backup (or not sufficient battery backup for an extended outage lasting many hours.)

I've just returned from a holiday on the islands of Palawan in the Philippines.
We visited El Nido and Coron.

Both these places have very poor electricity supplies with regular brownouts (when sections of the town suddenly lose their electricity for several hours). Virtually every establishment runs a generator so they can stay in business during these times.

Wifi is everywhere and free and you can almost always find a connection.

On our last day, the complete banking system of Coron failed - the 3 ATMs in the town stopped working and businesses were unable to accept credit card payments. We were left with about $5 equivalent in cash and ate instant noodles before we made it out alive.

I had a computer and bitcoins - the situation was perfect for bitcoins if only businesses would accept it or money exchangers would exchange it. The economy would have been boosted becasue we would have been able to spend more and freely instead of watching out pesos dwindling away

Thanks for that.

Those businesses are prepared then for a power outage.  Where power is relatively stable most businesses simply must close in the rare instances that power is out.

As far as exchangers it only takes a few in a large metro area to get things started.  Right now the list of traders on LocalBitcoins is starting to grow -- globally.  So, let's say there is a multi-day outage (for example, physical damage to multiple parts of electrical distribution infrastructure).

Basically starting just with those few who are already familiar with how bitcoin works, they could basically fast-track adoption of bitcoin.  Simply print up (or have community print themselves) paper bitcoins from BitAddress.org  -- then fund them with small denominations (e.g., $5s, $20s and a couple $100s.)   Then work with a few key merchants to accept these paper bitcoins (scanning the QR codes to redeem the coins).

This handful of individuals wouldn't likely have many bitcoins themselves but many in the community would have relatives and businesses outside the affected area that could buy and send bitcoins to bitcoin addresses for the paper bitcoin wallets.  These individuals then could facilitate exchange, providing fiat for those without smartphone mobiles or laptops.

The biggest barrier is that bitcoin isn't known to the merchants and exchangers and they wouldn't move very quickly towards this.  But if this scenario were to occur some day, it will get some press as a novel solution -- digital currency to the rescue, and will be tried the next time it happens elsewhere, and will spread from there.   Hopefully.

Currently 1.75 GB, and growing.
 http://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size

Or just check the size of the Bitcoin folder on your PC.

At the merchant-customer level, any argument in favor of Bitcoin in case of blackouts equally applies to credit cards.

http://farend.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Accept-credit-mobile.png
http://cdn.ubergizmo.com/photos/2010/3/swipeit-iphone-credit-card.jpg

I have the entire blockchain on 3 separate laptops that run 24/7 but i was thiking of ditching the lot
and switching to multibit or electrum

is it of any benefit to the network for most people to be running the full client and blockchain or could almost
everyone switch to a lite weight wallet that only downloads the block info but not the entire block ?

the 51% attack is harder the more people are running  a full copy of the blockchain, is that correct ?

Niko, it seems that things only works with iphone, while bitcoin works on every phone  :D

Doesn't work on my blackberry. :(

I was thinking a sat-link.

Try an android or tizen or meego based smartphone. They are all based on Linux.

You are all missing my point because you are obsessing over irrelevant details. Here is a relevant detail, along the line of your comments: electricity or not, Bitcoin currently doesn't work for point-of-sale payments. In most places there are zero merchants accepting BTC. But that's not the point of this thread. The point is, could Bitcoin still work in case of blackouts, and if so, could it be more resilient than centralized credit card networks?
My estimate above: no.

Mobile is relevant.

Part of your thoughts on "merchants" is being worked on as you read this. Something like this → http://digimo.biz/

Mobile is equally relevant for Bitcoin and for credit cards. There is no advantage of one over another in case of blackouts.

I added a bit before you replied. There should be a POS system similar to this ( http://digimo.biz/ ) soon.

 :)

apparently the bitcoincard network scales without problem. So in the case the bitcoincard net covers the whole city, there needs to be only one gateway (or connected blockchain server), which is a much weaker demand than network access at each merchant.

So in that case the bitcoincard does indeed better.

Digimo was just an example I used. I liked the fact that no extra hardware is needed to make their system work. PM me if you want more info.

That is if the merchant is prepared and has access to one of those card swipers (either the Square dongle or the dedicated one you referenced).  Though with a Square account you can also do Card Not Present transactions to then manually enter the card.  

But you are likely correct -- as long as there is even just mobile communications and battery powered mobile / tablet / laptop devices, the existing payment systems can continue to function even with an extended power outage.  Bitcoin doesn't really offer merchants anything they need in this scenario.

As far as enabling person-to-person exchange if the ATMs are down, I still think Bitcoin is uniquely positioned for that.

https://i.imgur.com/bYDkB.png

 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoRlyPZ3zJ0
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86012.msg1026722#msg1026722

the important question here is ,do you drink mocachinos ? ::)