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Gentleman, start your engines! >:(


More...http://apnews.myway.com/article/20150315/eu-russia-crimea-2859701388.html (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20150315/eu-russia-crimea-2859701388.html)

When Ukraine gave back their Atomic Arsenal it was the biggest mistake in their history. Now Russia is free to reign. Balance in region has shifted and we have one problem after another... It is a good lesson for other countries. Do not let go of your atomic weapons. It will keep you safe.

Sound like Putin's style who is can be persuaded by reason but not be cowed by force, after the sanctions from western, I'm not surprised that Putin will do something to strike back.

Has Vladimir Putin finally came out of hiding for more than a week? Are we moving towards a WW3?

if ukraine has  nuclear arselal they will bomb donetsk or???
you think they can bomb russia???

Ukraine doesn't have nuclear weapons, they resign from this kind of weapon in exchange for respecting the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine. Russia was one of the guarantors:
" The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine."

wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine#Budapest_Memorandum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine#Budapest_Memorandum)

yes, but if Ukraine stays neutral

There is a rumor that  Vladimir Putin's ruling has been overturned.
He has disappeared  more than 1 week.
He still didn't  show up.

Ukraine's history of looking after nuclear material makes me quite happy that they don't have nuclear weapons to be honest.
To the story: This is all hypothetical now anyway, Russia took Crimea without much bloodshed (any?) and didn't need to use or threaten nuclear war. 

Now if America starts sending troops to fight in Eastern Ukraine, it might be a different story.

american troops would get slaughtered on the russian border ,its a bad idea even sending them there

And they didn't stayed neutral? I don't recall Ukraine attacking anyone. Its Russia that is making all the trouble in the east Europe. Putin even admitted that he ordered to do everything to get back Crimea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation (https://bitcointalk.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation)

Let's have a complete picture then. He ordered it after the legitimate president of Ukraine was overthrown and attempted assassinated by the Nazis and after said Nazis started a march on Russian Crimea with the intent of full-scale ethnic cleansing. All he did was to defend the people who had been holding fort against the Ukrainian occupation of Crimea for the previous 23 years.

The documentary that was aired yesterday had a lot of information, some of it newly declassified - like the NATO military base in Feodosia, that was the only base where shots were fired, though even there no one got killed.
I wish someone would translate that doc to English, I simply don't have enough free time for it...  :-\

As for the nuclear threat. It's the Cuban Missile crisis in reverse. Now it's USA threatening Russia along its Western borders with its massive exercises.
Russian Northern fleet and Western Army is on full military alert. A lone Russian rocket carrier has been dispatched to patrol the Black Sea. And Putin announced that the nuclear response is a possibility in case USA invades Russia.

Nazis? Not every one of Ukraine people that want to be in European Union is Nazi.

Russian Crimea? Ukrainian occupation of Crimea for the previous 23 years?? Russia sign the Budapest Memorandum in witch she agreed to lave Crimea in Ukraine.

Also who said about "full-scale ethnic cleansing"?? Do you have any source to confirm that?

"a possibility in case USA invades Russia"? Its Russia who in the past few months broke many International agreements, including exceeding Swedish air borders.
http://news.sky.com/story/1370127/russian-planes-play-dangerously-report-warns (http://news.sky.com/story/1370127/russian-planes-play-dangerously-report-warns)
Now you are goring to tell me that Sweden is also planing on invading Russia?

You've got it right, Crimea was under Ukrainian occupation.

Oh common...

1. RTFM, memorandum != treaty. It has no power until the ratification. None of the parties (USA, GB, RF, UA) have ratified this paper so it has no legal power.
2. It was signed when Crimea wasn't a part of Ukraine. Crimea was a sovereign republic until the adoption of new ukrainian constitution in 1997.
3. Sevastopol was a part of Russian Federation, which have been illegally occupied by ukrainian national guard and wasn't officially recognized as a part of Ukraine until 1997.

So this memorandum would have no legal power even in case of proper ratification, because Ukraine itself violated it twice.

There is not even a single mention of Crimea and Sevastopol in this paper. And it's quite obvious why.

Is it sounds surprising for you? :D I'm sorry for asking but did you ever tried to read this paper before telling such jokes?

Oh, I see another typical propaganda template.

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=6020389

So, you have to give us the proof of your claims or begin to apologize for spreading lies.

I'm wrong in this case, though we still have a propaganda template.

As far I remember, there is an enormous amount of NATO tanks at the border between Poland and the Kaliningrad Oblast. Are you going to tell us what the hell are they doing there? No? Then shut up and leave the thread.

On one hand, I have no problem with polish people, I like your language and girls. On the other, I don't like useful fools.

Sorry guys, but you definetely need to start thinking as soon as possible. Stop being useful fools if you don't want to lose the remnants of your self-esteem.

Do you realize the source you posted to dispute that Russian planes violated Swedish airspace actually confirms that Russian planes violated Swedish airspace?


So you posted a source to dispute a specific incident biggerbig may or may not have been referencing, but in the process, end up posting a source proving biggerbig's point which was that Russian jets violated Sweden's airspace, just as he said.

jaysabi, Lol my bad :D Well, I have to admit that I didn't read an article properly. I'm a human and have the right to make some mistakes.

However, this isolated incident doesn't change anything because its value too overestimated. For example, I remember these submarine searches and it was really funny. :)

biggerbig, l have to apologize for calling you a liar. Though there is still enough amount of propaganda in your message I hope we won't have mutual misunderstanding after this incident. It seems that we both made some mistakes and I'm ready to recognize mine part of them. Are you ready to do the same? I can help you with translation of some papers, if you wish to know more about the subject.

Apology accepted but you cannot deny everything based on "it's propaganda". Read different materials from different sources.

And as for Crimea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Ukrainian_control_1954.E2.80.932014 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Ukrainian_control_1954.E2.80.932014)

Russian nuclear weapons? You mean that rusty crap from the cold war? Or maybe the ones they sold or somebody stole from them to sell on the black market? Putin is flexing his muscles just like Saddam once did  ;)

Mistakes happen.

I'm interested to know your take on Putin's admission that the soldiers in unmarked uniforms who took control of Ukrainian military facilities in Crimea were actually Russian troops, despite denying for months that this was the case during and after the events. You can't just dismiss this as propaganda when the the statement comes from his own mouth.

Sorry but it seems that you didn't read my message properly. Because it's what you're exactly doing right now.

You've said that memorandum was signed. Ok, it has been signed, and so what? I can sign anything too, it can be some treaty on accession of Mars into Federation of Planets for example.  ;D

Are you going to deny the fact that it wasn't ratified by anyone? Then it will be a propaganda, because even Ukraine itself didn't ratified this paper.

Are you going to tell me that ratification isn't necessary? Then it will be a propaganda, because such statement is logically inconsistent. Any paper should be authorized by the legislature before it becomes a law.

Does signing this memorandum matters if it has no legal power without ratification? C'mon, you're not stupid. It's time to admit that you've just copied some text without following your own suggestion:


Doesn't say even a half of what's really happened.

What do you need to know:

There is a decision #1082 of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the RSFSR from 29 october 1948 (https://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7_%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B0_%D0%92%D0%A1_%D0%A0%D0%A1%D0%A4%D0%A1%D0%A0_%D0%BE%D1%82_29.10.1948_%E2%84%96_761/2). City of Sevastopol was moved into the dedicated admistrative unit and was declared as the city of republican subordination.

What's an exact meaning of this judicial abracadabra?

That's simple. Sevastopol was turned into an administrative unit of RSFSR (Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic) with a special status i.e. it was ruled directly from the Moscow. It wasn't a part of Crimean Oblast in 1961, so it never moved into Ukraine. Surprise? And it's only beginning of this story. :)

Should we continue this game or it's enough?

Admission of what? Maybe, admission of the Black Sea Fleet existence? Well... Maybe it sounds surprising but these troops are stationed there since 18 century.

Denying? Are you serious or it's just some kind of weird joke? Sorry, I'm asking because I really can't understand your intentions. If you're serious then tell me, please, what do you see on this picture.

http://uainfo.org/uploads/posts/2014-04/1398153470_1.jpg

I bet you've never seen it in the BBC reports. ;)

Don't invent the propaganda and there won't be a necessity to dismiss it. Yep, it's really simple as the piece of cake. It's time to read The 1997 Black Sea Fleet Agreement, which obliges Black Sea Fleet to assist the local authorities in case of emergency situation. Another recommendation is to follow something except BBC or Gazeta Wyborcza. Then you would know what's really happening behind your window.

Balthazar covered the other issues that you raised. As for Nazis, I was talking specifically about Right Sector, and the NATO-trained forces that operated in Kiev and around Ukraine, suppressing anti-Maidan movement, their violent ambush on the bus convoi of people returning to Crimea from Kiev after and anti-Maidan demonstration, where 7 people were shot and killed outright, and 20 more are "missing" after an overnight manhunt. 4 of the 8 buses were burnt down. Look up the savageness of Korsun pogrom that was the harbinger of what people of Crimea were to expect from those, who violently took power in Kiev.

http://igcp.eu/sites/default/files/styles/crop_600/public/img-news/korsunavtobus.jpg
http://nahnews.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BC.jpg

http://nahnews.com.ua/70139-koshmar-v-novorossii-nachalsya-s-korsunskogo-pogroma/

Like I wrote earlier - search in different sources, not only in the Russian ones. As for Sevastopol - I didn't even mention that city and its not even the core case of this topic.

This is the real way of doing of Russian... ok ok we are ok ... 5 years laters , Hoo treaty ? WTF is this ? No way ... we do not care about treaty ...

And about all russian they are most funny ... why ? They do critics over West & USA ... and what ???

The paradox of the Russian people ?
Once they have enough money ... they go to  the city to buy share, to invest in the London Stone, give birth in a Swiss clinic, put their kid in the English and Swiss schools ... and during holidays they go in in Nice/france ..and during Winter to Courchevelle or Gstaad in Switzerland , dring the best wines / champagnes / french cognacs, go on vacation in Tuscany, roll in big German car, use social networks of Uncle Sam ...

But when you read all they do not like West, USA ... but have full in their mouth everyday ....

doesnt the memorandum make clear that ukraine only abolished their nuclear arsenal if the nuclear states promised not to intervene in any way and accept the sovereignty and integrity of the ukraine people?

well looks like a big joke now. also this might be a big step back regarding nuclear disarmament.
ukraine will be the prime example for nuclear weapon supporters...

Among some other things, package of agreements promised them ~$200 billion compensation for the renunciation of nuclear weapons. It didn't happen of course.

It was a scam right from the beginning, which explains why this memorandum isn't ratified by the participants. And now two of three scammers decided to remember about existence of this unratified paper... Seems legit.

I am talking specifically about the instance referred to in the news report posted in the OP about the documentary that aired on a Russian state TV. See, the problem is if it doesn't prove you right, you don't read it. That's why you stopped reading your own source that ultimately proved you wrong about Russia invading Sweden's airspace- because you thought it proved you right, so you didn't bother to read the rest of it. I'm not talking about the Black Sea Fleet in Crimea, I'm talking about those soldiers who were wearing ambiguous green uniforms and were hoisting Russian flags up at the military installations as Ukrainian forces abandoned them. As the West was saying those were Russian soldiers, Putin at the time said they weren't Russians. A month later, he said they were Russians, and he sent them there.

My only motivation is trying to gain a perspective other than what is commonly portrayed in the western media, as you keep asking people to do, that's why I asked your take on it as someone who is clearly pro-Russia. but you're so concerned with spinning this into something else to prove you're right about everything that it's clear that if I want an understanding of the other side, I need to get it from someone who is more level-headed or doesn't have so much invested in proving everything critical of Russia is propaganda.

There was no propaganda here to dismiss, there was Putin saying "those guys aren't Russians" only to later say "Yeah, they were Russians and I sent them there," and then me asking you how do you reconcile what turns out to be lies ("those guys aren't Russians") with what is currently coming out of the Kremlin in order to get to the truth?

Russian leadership never directly denied that special forces ensured that the referendum in Crimea could be conducted in a peaceful way, without bloody provocations and slaughter from Right Sector (as it later happened in Donetsk and Lugansk).

Remember the "polite people"? Russia's Minister of Defence Shojgu joked then that "it is silly to look for a black cat in a dark room, when the cat is not there, and especially if the cat is clever, courageous and polite". After the events, there was written a song, dedicated to the "polite people", and a fashion brand "polite people" was launched. Does it sound much like a denial? :)

What Russian government denied, was the presence of regular Russian army in excess of what was already stationed in Crimea under various agreements.

Do you know why the military bases in Crimea (except for the NATO base in Feodosia) were "taken" without a single shot being fired? Because the commanders of those bases asked to be "taken" so as to surrender with a clean judicial base. Later 90% of the personnel of those bases sworn allegiance to Russia, effectively switching side. The remaining 10% (mainly from West Ukraine) were let go and given time for them and their families to pack and conclude their business in Crimea. Does that sound like a forced take over?