Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Speculation => Topic started by: cafucafucafu on March 20, 2015, 07:22:19 PM



Title: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: cafucafucafu on March 20, 2015, 07:22:19 PM
For all of us holders and non-holders, an organic rise in the price would be beneficial. A steady rise will only bring in new holders and users. However these pumps and dumps really delay a slow rise and they put people off adoption.

Would is not benefit the whales more just to hold rather than keep putting people off with their dumps?


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: jbrnt on March 20, 2015, 07:33:13 PM
I think holding is a cost and a risk for them. They could invest in something else while holding and make more profits. It is in their best interest to hold for as little time as possible and reap in guaranteed profits.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: Amph on March 20, 2015, 08:06:03 PM
they are professional traders i believe, this mean that it's worth for them to trade, and to generate as many P&D as possibile, obviously there many whales, so some of them will end up losing money

the point here is to increase your bitcoin number, holding them can't do that

and they don't dump , but they make you dump, to buy cheap, at least this should be their strategy with all those walls


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: cafucafucafu on March 20, 2015, 08:53:42 PM
they are professional traders i believe, this mean that it's worth for them to trade, and to generate as many P&D as possibile, obviously there many whales, so some of them will end up losing money

the point here is to increase your bitcoin number, holding them can't do that

and they don't dump , but they make you dump, to buy cheap, at least this should be their strategy with all those walls

Do you this they may have gambler's type of of psychology? Some of these recent sharp dumps seem to be more downward than they amount they could have pumped. I get the impression that some are just gambling again and again and losing out.

I do think these dumps are pushing some guys away from btc and thus having a bad affect on the price. The whales would do better to just let things grow. After the recent dumps the growth rate has suffocated.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: NUFCrichard on March 20, 2015, 10:37:45 PM
Maybe these whales are in fact miners who need to realise some of their profits to pay the bills?
Or they are leveraged shorts that kick the market downwards purposely, remember peopl can make money in both directions now..

If it is just people with lots of bitcoins selling on a whim, then yes, it's stupid!


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: randy8777 on March 20, 2015, 11:16:06 PM
they are whale for a reason. they know exactly what to do without losing a single penny.
whales are not that different from us "normal traders" except that they have a huge load of funds.
they have a trading stash and a personal stash in cold storage. they will benefit anyway no matter if the price goes up or down.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: calme on March 20, 2015, 11:26:55 PM
It is true that many whales harm themselves. Many of them are cutters. I know a whale who cut himself and is currently serving a prison sentence for whaling.  :'(


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: Dilla on March 20, 2015, 11:34:02 PM
Dump coins, cause market drop, buy more back at lower price, repeat.
They hurt themselves if another whale makes a bigger buy just after they dump, and the price jumps higher than they sold.
Many whales work together to manipulate the market.
Everyone holding/trading a small amount of btc are just gambling on the moves of the whales.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: JimboToronto on March 20, 2015, 11:44:40 PM
Let's not overlook the possibility of people or groups sacrificing a bit by dumping a few thousand coins at a fairly small loss in order to lower the exchange price that determines the price they pay for tens of thousands of coins off-exchange, i.e. from a mining consortium.

Not everyone is a day trader.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: cafucafucafu on March 21, 2015, 12:13:26 AM
they are whale for a reason. they know exactly what to do without losing a single penny.


Not necessarily. Early miners with thousands of coins are not necessarily good traders.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: Q7 on March 21, 2015, 01:43:41 AM
I think the whales consist of people or organization which will see a huge benefit if bitcoin is dead. It's not that they will make money in every pump and dump and they actually have the unlimited funding. To them it's not about making money in bitcoin but rather seeing people losing confidence in the bitcoin system by making the price crash and look awful.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: Hfleer on March 21, 2015, 01:46:45 AM
Its amazing what people think that traders with bigger bankrolls do....

If someone has enough money to move a market, does he really need to be intelligent and superior to all other market participants?
I really doubt it...

Many whales beat the market because they can do off-exchange trades for huge amounts. Kind of a dark lquidity pool they can tap into, if they want.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: alani123 on March 21, 2015, 02:01:05 AM
http://orderbook.info/ is a great example of why bitcoin sell or buy walls don't really mean all that much.

Orders that would be normal if we were talking about another market are huge for bitcoin. Here's an example: The slaying of bearwhale. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uX_bB_4VJk) An investor puts a large order well below market rates and the market takes about six hours to chunk through it.

Now back to orderbook.info. Do you see how the orders on top rarely exceed the size of $1000? That still happens while we get a trade volume close to $20m each day. If you're looking to find support levels by looking at a bitcoin order book you're a fool. It's so easy to cancel an order in bitcoin exchanges that there's not even a point to base your predictions on order books.

Despite al that, some investors willing to diversify their assets and even take risks put money in bitcoin. They most likely look for quick returns but also don't mind to take loss since they have millions on their hands. Given that manipulating a market of this size and nature by creating fake demand is easy, the come in and out quickly.

Put simply, whales that deal with bitcoin don't care about hurting themselves (especially for the extremely short term), they care about manipulating the market.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: randy8777 on March 21, 2015, 02:06:24 PM
they are whale for a reason. they know exactly what to do without losing a single penny.


Not necessarily. Early miners with thousands of coins are not necessarily good traders.

instead of quoting a small fraction of my post you can also read that i am talking about whale traders and not early miners.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: gargantuar on March 21, 2015, 02:37:14 PM
Usually they just harm others:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/diver-encased-whale-feces-swim-article-1.2091056



Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: Hfleer on March 21, 2015, 04:41:41 PM
Its a free market anyway, so you don't "harm" anyone, because entering those markets was risky to begin with. It's not like you suddenly cheated someone.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: Morecoin Freeman on March 21, 2015, 05:20:01 PM
It is more profitable for traders to have volatility. In this market you can make money every day.

I see holding bitcoin, and waiting for everyone else to push the price up for you, as way more of a gamble. You're not in control of this situation at all which is too risky for me. You let the whales play with your balls. If they decide to dump you are rekt.

Thus, if you know how to trade, multiplying your investment by trading is more likely than by playing the holding and waiting game.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: Hfleer on March 21, 2015, 05:22:37 PM
It is more profitable for traders to have volatility. In this market you can make money every day.

I see holding bitcoin, and waiting for everyone else to push the price up for you, as way more of a gamble. You're not in control of this situation at all which is too risky for me. You let the whales play with your balls. If they decide to dump you are rekt.

Thus, if you know how to trade, multiplying your investment by trading is more likely than by playing the holding and waiting game.

But moving the market can be very bad for you too.

Google slippage.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: Morecoin Freeman on March 21, 2015, 05:28:31 PM
Oh and to answer OP more specifically:
Most big players in bitcoin trading do not care about the bitcoin technology, which saddens me being a bitcoin enthusiast myself.
They will just keep pumping and dumping, leeching more and more money out of the market. That is also one of the many reasons we keep seeing lower prices.

How will this end? No one knows...


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: Hfleer on March 21, 2015, 05:32:52 PM
Oh and to answer OP more specifically:
Most big players in bitcoin trading do not care about the bitcoin technology, which saddens me being a bitcoin enthusiast myself.
They will just keep pumping and dumping, leeching more and more money out of the market. That is also one of the many reasons we keep seeing lower prices.

How will this end? No one knows...

Trading has nothing to do with the technologie anyways. One is a financial decision, the other is a technical innovation.

Please show me how your argument is relevant.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: Morecoin Freeman on March 21, 2015, 05:35:10 PM
Oh and to answer OP more specifically:
Most big players in bitcoin trading do not care about the bitcoin technology, which saddens me being a bitcoin enthusiast myself.
They will just keep pumping and dumping, leeching more and more money out of the market. That is also one of the many reasons we keep seeing lower prices.

How will this end? No one knows...

Trading has nothing to do with the technologie anyways. One is a financial decision, the other is a technical innovation.

Please show me how your argument is relevant.
Well OP asked how the big players in trading are not concerned with hurting bitcoin by pumping and dumping. That's why I addressed these big players, for the most part, do not care about bitcoin at all. And I believe the pump and dumps indeed hurt bitcoins image and the likelihood of this technology going mainstream.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: Hfleer on March 21, 2015, 05:44:03 PM
Oh and to answer OP more specifically:
Most big players in bitcoin trading do not care about the bitcoin technology, which saddens me being a bitcoin enthusiast myself.
They will just keep pumping and dumping, leeching more and more money out of the market. That is also one of the many reasons we keep seeing lower prices.

How will this end? No one knows...

Trading has nothing to do with the technologie anyways. One is a financial decision, the other is a technical innovation.

Please show me how your argument is relevant.
Well OP asked how the big players in trading are not concerned with hurting bitcoin by pumping and dumping. That's why I addressed these big players, for the most part, do not care about bitcoin at all. And I believe the pump and dumps indeed hurt bitcoins image and the likelihood of this technology going mainstream.

The thing is, that Bitcoin has nothing to do with the price. The technologie doesn't care if it trades at 1000$ or 10$. Maybe you and OP confuse that aspect of it.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: Morecoin Freeman on March 21, 2015, 05:45:21 PM
I think it does. The technology is already developed what it needs now is adoption.

Just my opinion. What do I know.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: btc4lifer on March 21, 2015, 05:46:37 PM
Whales want to increase their stash/cash just as much as everyone else hence the pump/dump fleeces those who think they can trade but are really gambling.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: Hfleer on March 21, 2015, 05:46:49 PM
I think it does. The technology is already developed what it needs now is adoption.

Just my opinion. What do I know.

Bitcoin code is evolving every day. Just check the Github for commits for example. Also the services aroudn bitcoin is what will make it successful or not. the price is just a function of the adoption. Not vice-versa.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: AtheistAKASaneBrain on March 21, 2015, 07:17:38 PM
For all of us holders and non-holders, an organic rise in the price would be beneficial. A steady rise will only bring in new holders and users. However these pumps and dumps really delay a slow rise and they put people off adoption.

Would is not benefit the whales more just to hold rather than keep putting people off with their dumps?
They usually know what they are doing, otherwise they all would end up broke. They buy tons of BTC slowly when the price seems dead and dump later.
To stop this there is only one way: mass adoption.


Title: Re: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?
Post by: alani123 on March 21, 2015, 07:28:31 PM
For all of us holders and non-holders, an organic rise in the price would be beneficial. A steady rise will only bring in new holders and users. However these pumps and dumps really delay a slow rise and they put people off adoption.

Would is not benefit the whales more just to hold rather than keep putting people off with their dumps?
They usually know what they are doing, otherwise they all would end up broke. They buy tons of BTC slowly when the price seems dead and dump later.
To stop this there is only one way: mass adoption.
All big investors prefer to diversify their assets in order to hedge some of the risk. Big Bitcoin traders are most likely keeping a small portion of their funds with Bitcoin. Yet that's enough for the to manipulate the market.