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I want to leave Brazil, for somewhere else better.

But I have no idea of where to go...

My issue is not even paying taxes, I do not mind paying taxes when they are properly used, my issue is:

First, Brazil as republic is a failure (the best times in Brazil were during Monarchy, and during Dictatorships, all "republic" times had major cheating to get people in office)
Second, Brazil taxes go nowhere at all, and you have to pay your taxes AND pay your private services (ie: health, security, or even road construction is paid privately)
Third, Brazil government is kinda resilent, guns are de facto banned, any small protest is quickly quashed with police force (the last one was about marijuana legalization, it ended with cops attacking even bystanders and reporters), and the population is so individualistic that they actually do not care to revolt or protest in massive numbers.
Fourth, I dislike brazillian people (if you are in the internet for long, you will notice why).
Fifth, Brazil is too dangerous, when it is a dictatorship, people "disappear", and when not in dictatorship, crime rate skyrocket.




So, someone know a nice place to move in and become citizen? (thus, it must be a place where becoming a citizen is pratical...)

The moon.

The moon does not fall into the category "nice"

You know, it kinda lacks... air.

I too want to leave (from the USA though), I've been thinking about one of the northern European countries. Yes, it's socialized for the most part, but they are also nice places to live and seem to have weathered the recent economic shitstorm fairly well (I'm thinking Sweden in particular).

Some people kinda invited me to go to Finland.

But I am yet to figure how hard is to change citizenship, and how much they welcome mediterran caucasians (my predominant ethny)

air is overrated.

There is a common pattern with countries getting wealthier: They get tighter and tighter with immigration, xenophobia spreads in the culture, taxes and government spending are on the rise, its people stray away from politics and the meaning of liberty is gradually lost on them.

Finland has been going full xenophobic lately.

Uruguay and Chile both seem like nice places to live.

I think time is quickly approaching to finally chip in and buy an Island  ;D

Sometimes I wish I was born viking :/

Nordic culture is so much more nicer (except for maybe the excessive xenophobia bit). Or japanese culture, or some other cultures.


Brazil culture only matter short-term gains, and mostly material gains, people do not care about honor, justice, honesty... If they can screw you, it is 70% of chance that they will screw you.

If you compare folk music of Brazil and most european countries, you get:

Brazil most popular rock bands theme: Sex. Europe: Dragons, heroes, etc...
Brazil most popular folk music: Betrayed men, and sex. Europe: Virtues and past history
Brazil most popular dance hall music: Only drums, talk solely about sex, money and crime (praising it... and stuff like rape, murder, etc...). Europe: Bleeding edge music, always pushing instruments forward.
Brazil most popular erudite music: Clone of European erudite music.


:/

In fact, several of the best brazillian musical groups, are brazillian only in the sense that the members were born here, because most of them are popular in other countries (usually europe or japan, some in the US), and after a time they switch to sing in other languages than portuguese (usually english, sometimes german, swedish, japanese, french...) as their non-Brazil popularity rise.


But the worst part of being born in Brazil, is being a nationless individual (using the classical sense for the word nation), whites hate me because I have black nose, blacks hate me because I am white, and my culture is alien to everyone around me, leading to a sort of cultural isolation, yet everywhere else in the world I suspect I will be alien too, thus making the entire world alien, no place to call home.

...and get aced by Tonga.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Minerva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Minerva)

Italy blew up a island nation too.

But getting ass-kicked by Tonga is...

Like losing Eurovision to some unknown country, maybe, azerbaijan.

You mean the best times were when most of the population was enslaved (monarchy), or when government authoritarianism and central planning would make the current socialistic government look like a libertarian dream?

Geez man, not that things are nice now, but they were way worse on those times.

Now, about your question, I don't know if I can answer it, since I don't know you well enough. I don't think you really want to go to northern Europe... it's frozen!! But less cold parts of Europe may be interesting if you want to run away from the violence. I live on the south of France, and the winter here is not that harsh. Ordinary violence barely exists, and when something happens, is normally a theft done hidden, never a quick kidnapping as standard in Brazil.

Now, if you want to make money, probably Europe is not the best shot. How far are you willing to go? Have you looked Singapore? Their government is somehow authoritarian on behavior standards, but not as much as Dubai for instance, and in Singapore the economy is impressive. I read somewhere that 16% of its population are dollar-millionaires.

You sound like a liberal.

You should realize that your urge to flee your country is likely caused by a genetic defect that predisposes you to novelty-seeking behavior (http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/10/28/researchers-liberal-gene-genetics-politics/).

Monarquists (I know some) would cringe at that.

Brazil late monarchy was actually one of the most interesting governments ever, the emperor was so much for freedom, that he willingly let the republicans take power, being the only monarch ever to get deposed with more than 70% of population approval.


But what I mean was: During those times, the government were usually more efficient, and actually did good things (unfortunately, specially during the recent dictatorships, lots of crap things too... I know lots of people that still miss friends and family that "dissapeared" during the last dictatorship, just because they knew russian or were bystanders near a protest...)

The first republic (that was obviously fake, with several presidents of the same party in a row getting voted in with 99% of the votes) was problematic, to the point that a dictator was needed to fix it. And that dictator did a so good job, that after getting deposed, people willingly elected him again.

And the current republic plainly suck, most of the power is concentrated in the hands of PMDB, and the only president that went against them, got impeached (I am not defending that guy, he IS a crook, but other presidents did much worst shit and PMDB protected them, as they handed named offices to PMDB members and do not insisted in strong anti-corruption laws).



To the guy that says I am seeking for novelty: I am seeking actually for security, peace and (somewhat) honest people. In Brazil you have to constantly watch your back, it just suck.

Why not Spain or Italy ?
Serbia, Horvatia, Bolgaria are not bad, for you ethnos type. They are not ask many questions too.

hardly there any place/country where you can "become" citizen :/
except those, where problems, you listed, even worser, such as African coutnries and some Pacific countries, where corrupted officials can make you "citizen" for nominal cash.

Time to seastead.

If you have the funds, then travel and see for yourself.  No one is going to be able to tell you where you would rather live.  Every region has its pros and cons, and every group of neighbors has their idiosyncrasies.

There are assholes everywhere.  The only thing left to do is figure out which group of assholes you can stand to be around.  Personally, I find the idiots I've grown up with to be much less tolerable than idiots abroad.  There's something relaxing about seeing the same old bullshit from a new perspective. 

Yeah, he was so much for freedom he kept the majority of the population as slaves... Brazil was one of the last countries to abolish slavery, and the monarchy has its fault on it.


No, it was not. Take the military dictatorship for ex. They were control freaks, central planning at its ultimate level. Most of Brazil huge inefficient state companies were created during their time. The "economic miracle" was nothing more than lots of government spending fueled by debt - which Brazilians have to carry until today - and money printing, which basically destroyed the country economy during the 80s with the hyperinflation it caused. Brazil income discrepancies are a fruit of the hyperinflation: http://www.mises.org.br/Article.aspx?id=313


Do you mean Vargas, that fascist criminal who cursed Brazil with... the CLT!?


Yeah, they suck... but at least those corrupt parasites kind of protected the country from PT. Imagine if PT had absolute majority...


I agree with that. Actually most of the late 20 years economic improvements the country has lived are due to the changes promoted during the period of that crook, plus the end of hyperinflation of course.


You'll find this in France, I can say for experience. But there may be places that suit you better. The guy that answered that you have to see for yourself is correct.

From personal experience, before you move, i would suggest you search within yourself, and make sure that you are not trying to move away from yourself. It's impossible to run away from yourself, of course...

In my experience, a change in one's personal life can make a big difference in the way one perceives the surrounding environment and people...

Imho, another thing that makes a difference is the urbanization of the place where one lives. Obviously, urban environments, especially in developing countries, stress people, and make them act like rats in an overcrowded cage. The most troublesome members of society also tend to gravitate there.

I've found that moving to a provincial city can be helpful in avoiding such stressed environments, and high concentrations of unpleasant people. As in any other large country, i suspect that people in Brazil act differently toward each other in places distant from the overpopulated centers.

Perhaps, you may find it useful to investigate life in countries where wealthy people from developed countries often go to retire. On your side of the globe, Panama and Costa Rica come to mind... If you want a peaceful, cordial place, i would follow the international retirees. As the recent Tenerife incident shows, it still doesn't prevent one from getting her head cut off, but chances seem favorable there...

In my experience though, the main question to answer first is still, "Am i trying to move away from myself?" It's difficult to answer, and what you wish to find is difficult...

As a lifetime mover that i have also been, i wish you luck! :)

I would surely stay on the southern hemisphere as all most of the nuclear weapons are located on and pointing at locations on the northern hemisphere. The nice thing about the southern hemisphere (apart from the fact that there is that beautiful country Brazil! Que saudades!) is that northern and southern hemisphere are separated by the equator, which acts as a screen between northern and southern air currents.
You must have gotten the point already: in case of a nuclear war (and the USA has no more money for a conventional one, so nuclear is the cheapest next option) you should be much safer on the southern, than on the northern hemisphere.

As soon as you see all kinds of royalty and Goldman Sachs CEOs going on 'holiday' somewhere far south, then you'll know it's the time :)

Anyway, if I were you (or any Brazilian citizen) I wouldn't leave Brazil if I had a decent income there...

Brazil is good if you are absurdly rich, the level of corruption makes life way easier to rich people...

But I am not absurdly rich...




Also, to @caveden blaming slavery on the Brazillian imperial family is rather naive, the reasons Brazil was the last one to abolish slavery is more related to the ruralists (that are the current MDB, by the way...). If you read texts written by the imperial family, they wanted a end to slavery, but every time they attempted it, they had problems with the ruralists, in the end they just decided to "screw it" and declared end of slavery anyway. That triggered the ruralists to support the republicans, leading to the emperor resignation (yes, the emperor resigned... he was republican himself... he even felt betrayed after he got exiled, he believed he would be able to live a normal retired civilian life in Brazil).

I am not saying monarchy was perfect, far from it, but we do have a significant propaganda against monarchy, without people taking their time to actually study it.

The same applies to Vargas... I dislike many things that he did, including the CLT, but you have to think about why he did the things he did, the CLT itself solved many problems when it was made, the reason CLT is now a curse, is because the left (PT and leftwards from that I mean...) refuses to let it to be modernized, with the problems that CLT was intended to fix do not existing anymore, it became problematic (for example, the huge fine for firing someone, was invented because Vargas foreseen that the CLT would trigger mass firings... indeed, the fine worked, and made people retain the workers, but now the huge fine is only another reason to avoid hiring people, causing unemployment).



Also I do not think the military government was the best one ever, some democratically elected presidents did much better, but in many aspects they are better than the current government (that is soon going to be more strict than the military... already noticed how the gun laws keep being tightened and how the cops this month beat-up some protesters, and that to make a protest now you need judicial permission? It makes no sense that you have to ask judicial permission to protest...)



@imanikin

I do not want to move away from myself, I want to move closer to like-minded people.

@speeder : I thought the 'fine' was some kind of contribution to the retirement of the workers, as in my (very limited) knowledge participation in a retirement fund is not obligatory and seldom practiced. So instead of the employer constantly (i.e. monthly) putting money in a retirement fund, the employee gets it with his dismissal.

And re slavery, it even continued after the so called abolishment, and with happy participation of the Dutch who kept sending ships full of 'galinhas' to Bahia (or was is Ceara?), as I have understood it. The Dutch were the last to stop trading slaves. So much for christian mentality... ;)

I have the same problem.

All the big countries involve different kinds of insanity, but there is none that got rid of all of them.

I'm currently in Germany, but it appears the country has decided to "embrace" the future in turtle mode. I've thought about many others, but each has some problems. Currently, I consider:

Liechtenstein
Japan
USA
Canada
Switzerland

But that's because I can speak German and am learning Japanese -- someone limited to English might find some choices less suitable.

Liechtenstein is epic, but SO SMALL. No matter how great the setup, it's totally endangered by anything big making a move. Japan has the most awesome feeling to live at, but also has a huge debt and people who love rules, no matter how silly. And so on. There's just no obvious choice.

OK, I grant you that, you may be right. I've never read such texts from the imperial family.


But not this. Labor laws do no good, and the stronger they are, the more damage they do. Labor is a contract between parties, nobody else has anything to do with how these parties do it, pretty much like marriage actually.
The CLT was always a problem, it's a quite authoritarian set of labor laws.


That's a pessimist view, but you might be right. I just hope it doesn't get to that point.... if it gets, well, I am screwed! :P I've already criticized government so much out on the open of the internet, that I would probably go to jail the day I step in a Brazil "more strict than the military [dictatorship]".

The CLT was some emergencial laws to fix the economy, they DID fixed the economy at that time, but now broke everything :(


CLT for example with the 13 salary, increased spending in the end of the year (when everyone hoarded, because of the taxes that the government asks payment on january), and several of other CLT measures was to make people risk more, the problem at that time was massive hoarding, the CLT made people stop hoarding, and the fine for firing someone, intended to make all the employed people remain employed. It worked, at that time, it really fixed the economy... Unfortunately, Vargas planned to revoke the laws after some years, but he got removed from government first, and the laws stuck.


Maybe it was not the best solution possible for the problems, but it was a clever one anyway.


But I am anti-CLT myself too, I work selling products actually (I am software architect... I sell the architecture, not my services... although I work within my client building, he pays for my product, instead of renting my work, even if the end result is still a stable monthly payment).

i've lived on four continents, and learned a very valuable thing about doing so.

it doesn't matter where you are - you make your own life.

from a security standpoint, the best place to live is the place where you have the best and most instinctive grasp of "the rules".  (i.e.; the confluence of those legal, social and ethical constraints which make up any large entity like a country)

as a matter of pure practicality, this almost always means the country of your birth.  you will do better and stay safer.

of course there are exceptions.  north korea comes to mind.

but for the most part...

Jaime I really doubt that I would stay safe where I live...

In my neighborhood people being killed is so common we do not even care anymore. Here, the lastest news told by the daily women gossip over walls is:

"Hey, do you know the lastest person that died?"

And even where I work, inside a fortified city with guards and cameras everywhere, two coworkers still got kidnapped and taken to a slum, where his kidnappers almost entered in a firefight with the drug lords (the coworkers, that survived the incident, told us that the drug lords got pissed with people making robberies on their turf, and threatened to shoot down the kidnappers and their victims)







Anyway, I returned to the topic, because I`ve heard of Singapore, seemly very low taxes, easy entry, declared as the freest economy of the world... the only thing that bother people is their fake republic government (in the last elections for example, the candidates of the opposition parties got declared "invalid" and the ruling party won again, by default, and that same party is winning since the 50s...)

So, what you people think of Singapore?

Not being a democracy by itself is not a problem. It seems things in Singapore work better than most places in the world.
The only bad thing I heard is that they have some draconian laws regarding behaviors... like, throwing garbage on the street may put you in jail. Drugs, prostitution etc are severely punished and so on.

As long they do not intrude into personal private lives (ie: what you do at home with your family), I am quite fine with that, I dislike all those things anyway...

it sounds like yes - it's probably a good place to leave.  i hate violent places.

what do i think of singapore?  in a way, i hate places like that even worse.  i've been there, and i've never been able to erase the impression that it's like living in a large ant-colony.  it's basically a pure oligarchy.  people are whipped ('caned') for littering, and a hundred other infractions.  if your car breaks down on certain highways, a helicopter comes and lifts it away, then drops it destructively away from traffic: you are charged heavily for the favor.

and of course, one is very heavily surveilled.  that twisted wreck of a car was required (as are all vehicles) to have a tracking chip in it - and if it isn't picked up and taken to a junk yard within a very few hours, you will be charged further.

singapore is a very... efficient... place.  or - from a different point of view - disneyland for the rich, with about zero social mobility.

if you have the money and don't mind living behind walls, without intercourse with that part of humanity which may be even slightly different, or less wealthy that you are, then perhaps it is for you.  i could never live like that.

I understand what you are saying.

And it resembles the city where I work... (although the city is not wealthy yet to lift cars with helicopers, they probably would if possible).

It is not much different from my current life (my house is walled and I do not talk with neighbors... the single time I walked on the street to buy coca-cola on a nearby bar, some people asked if I was foreigner...), except safer (And with no crackheads on my backyard... yes, that happened to me once, people hiding on my backyard to use heavy drugs).

Only, that I am not wealthy :/ (and if I remain here I will never be... although my salary is very high for the standards here, it is half of what it is paid in other countries for the same job).

Heres a plan:

1. Acquire island (anyone selling an island for bitcoin? I hear greece is hard up for some money these days)
2. Set up a technate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_Incorporated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_Incorporated)
3. Make bitcoin legal tender of formed technate (bitcoin is in many ways an ideal currency for a technocracy, atleast ideologically)
4. Invite bitcoiners/techie/hacker types to live on said island. Create the first technology oriented society.

I'll quit rambling now.

then get Hari Seldon to create psychohistory.

PROFIT!!!

You are sharing here only negative things about your country.
I'm sure there are also a lot of positive things about your country, people, nature etc.
The problems you talk about exist in other countries, not just Brazil.
So, do you really think that anything will change if you leave from Brazil?
I advise you to think again and to focus instead of complaining and regret on positive things and what you can do for yourself and others.
 

First , this is very old topic.
Second, telling the truth is not equivalent to spreading the negativity. I think Brazil economic climate make any honest individual depressed.

A proud citizen and you are now thinking of leaving your country? I suggest you have to develop the passion for your country and just love where you are now.

You think that's bad? Come here, cross the border to the north (preferably when OUR police/guards are not shooting people bringing humanitarian aid)...

I do know a place in the Caribbean where you can buy citizenship, even with bitcoin, for a mere 200k USD or ₿ equivalent: Antigua and Barbuda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigua_and_Barbuda), that citizenship would net you Caricom access and you could live work in any of the member countries, some of which also get extra benefits from the UK... You would live in the tropics, and there is a lot of reconstruction work to do when the seasonal hurricanes destroy everything again...

Other than that, there is a very cold winter place in northern Europe that will let you enter to live and work without the working visa, but unless you are already hired, have a place to stay and can demonstrate enough income for living expenses, you can't stay: Svalbard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard), Norway. Some people even became Norwegian citizens after living a decade or so there... And your Viking dream would actually come true, if you can survive those harsh polar winters (mostly indoor life).

Where to go? Well I want to go to canada or paris.the reason is to work.why I want there it is because some of my relatives are there and they saying its good to work in canada.not too much population.and also they say you can earn such money as long as you are a hard working person.

I didn't even noticed this was from 2011 but I sincerely hoped things has gotten better for OP. It's not easy to migrate AND gain citizenship or at least residency.


Well, I don't blame them. After all those things flooded into Europe, they probably realized they really don't make enough to support an Achmed with 4 wives that each have 3 spawnlings. Or you know, maybe they heard of Captain Sweden.

Excellant comment!

Look at the difference between Rome and the countryside, Los Angeles and Montana, London and the Irish countryside.

If you asking me where I want to go? Iwant to go to the Philippines because I love Island.Philippines known as many Island around the country. Island give me well feelings that makes me feel so happy and feel so whelm. Love to swim and love to see a beautiful places such as like beach.thats the only place where I want to go.

Oxygen, to be accurate. Every country has its own problems and if you can't adapt to yours, how about other countries that you did not even live in for a long period of time? There are a lot of nice countries out there, but I don't think you will be comfortable with any of them since they are also dealing with other situations that might be the same as yours.