Bitcoin Forum

Inspired by this topic on Bitcoin and crowdfunding (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=76392.0), and somewhat related to my recent Kickstarter topic (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=105826), I wrote a proposal to the Bitcoin community (http://www.potentialgames.com/bitcoingame/) to crowd-fund a Bitcoin-centric game:

http://www.potentialgames.com/bitcoingame/

As I've stated in my proposal, I will take this quite seriously and professionally (all via Potential Games LLC), if there is serious interest from the community.

At this point, this is just a discussion. It might not lead to anything, but I think it will be an interesting topic.

Update: Revisited this today (Dec 27, 2012). Early 2013 would be an ideal time to bootstrap a new game project, so please let me know if there is interest.

Make me a Diablo 2 clone that accepts Bitcoin and I'll eat it up.

Yes, I totally agree... However, I should clarify.

I am not a AAA studio. I have a nice simple game design in mind. I'm not reinventing the wheel with the design or trying to shock the world with a never-before-seen game concept.

This is a very humble proposal. Sorry for the vagueness, but I'm just testing the waters here. If the community is behind me, then I'm all-in (and it's not poker/gambling). In fact, my ideas will probably change with community input, and I'm totally open to that.

Well, my second suggestion was poker related >_>

How would Bitcoins be distributed in the game?

Would players pay in Bitcoins when they join or on a regular basis?

If it's going to be an RPG-style game then it must be reasonably fair to all players. Otherwise you might get a situation where the high level PCs grab all the Bitcoins from the noobs.

I hadn't seen Regnum before, so thanks for the pointer. However, that's beyond what I could provide.


OK, anyone want to hire me to build a Bitcoin poker engine? This would be a separate contract-based arrangement, not part of this crowd-funding proposal, though. Like I said, I'm effectively looking for work hours!


RPG gameplay has a lot of overhead, and the currency would just become a subtext of the world. I'm planning more of an economic-based game. (I also have some designs for a military game, but I think economic might be the way to really embrace the Bitcoin aspect.)

Without getting into the setting, players would spend bitcoins to give themselves the means to earn more in the world. But, it's a balance: how much to put in for how much reward you think you can achieve (return on investment). A trouble with RPGs is that the richest player wins. In my (still speculative) game design, you could buy in with lots of BTC if you want, but if you over-spend, then you'll never actually make back what you put in.

In a very abstract sense, the world economy acts as a pool. By playing, you can get coin from the pool. One issue is that if the pool runs dry, then the economy fizzles out. I have a couple thoughts on this, which I think would actually make the game pretty interesting... sorry so vague.

If this proposal gets off the ground at all, the first thing I'll do is make a public game design document, so everyone can provide input. I'm sure there are lots of Bitcoin experts that will think of really interesting economic concepts for such a framework, and if this is crowd-funded, then I'm certainly open to public opinion!

how about a game like anno1777 ?
it looks sustainable, players get real money in and out,
I can't quite get the busyness model, but players are happy

The nice thing about an economic/finance game is that it dangles the tantalising idea of being self-funding.

Basically the funding of the game itself can be part of the game itself.

That is the main reason really why the whole "implement actual banks and stock exchanges for the cities using Open Transactions" focus came about really: hanging around bitcoin made me realise that speculating is a very popular game in and of itself thus just having the financial markets up and running might well go much farther toward financing the game than any amount of 3d graphics development, combat system implementation, client and server adaptation and so on and so on and so on that the overall Milieu (http://devtome.org/wiki/index.php?title=Galactic_Milieu) ultimately calls for.

-MarkM-

Wow, anno1777 sounds intriguing from the feature list. However, the site shows nothing of the game itself. From the description, it sounds like if that's what you want, just play anno1777! Sounds very hard-core though, in terms of the environment. My idea is rather more light.


Hi MarkM - as always, you have very good insights. Indeed, I want to stay away from too many game mechanics. I have in mind an improve-your-situation tycoon type of approach (in a world setting that I'm keeping shrouded in mystery for the moment, but which won't really surprise anyone once I disclose it). It needs to be accessible to end-users.

I think the game needs to take place in one single world (not fractured amongst private servers), to support a single thriving economy. On the technical front, I'm considering that the server should provide an open protocol, allowing anyone to write clients to the API. Whether that makes sense to the gameplay will have to be considered. On one hand, you can't really stop folks from writing bots, so you might as well embrace it. On the other hand, the game design and user experience must not suffer from scripted players.

Sorry, thoughts on world structure and game framework is a bit preliminary. Just something that was on my mind, contemplating MarkM's comments.

A lesson that EVE Online seems to have taught is that, unfortunately, self-improving tycoons does not seem to be a good model from the point of view of investors. It is great for the tycoons themselves, running around ripping off people who are fool enough to invest in them, but not great for any stock markets that trade in the "securities" such tycoons offer. :)

Thus I have been examining the possibility that one might be able to relieve the tycoons of much of their ability to rip off investors at the same time as, and by the same mechanism(s) as, one might be able to simplify the system, at least initially. given that initially financing the game is important in order for there to be a game at all.

So I have been looking at ways to allow "tycoons" some sense of being at the tiller of a Corp while at the same time presenting to them only such choices as are not inconsistent with the best interests of stockholders...

-MarkM-

I am playing it, and it is not so heavy as it might seem,
player only has his 1 page with 20 buttons,
"buy food", "go to work", "rent a house", "attack" and status is printed in text,
there is no graphics at all, only a few places where timer is running

there is probably a lot of work on database in the background,
in coordination of all different aspects of the game.

if they only accepted bitcoin...

one nice idea from anno is that they pay dividend to shareholders of the game,
shares and dividends are handled directly within the game, player has a button to buy or sell shares at all times
dividends are paid after game fund reaches 10k eur, it happens at least once a month, and dividends pay 1 cent per share,
one share is 32 cents, so it is quite impressive,

it has been going on for a few years now, and seems sustainable

double post deleted

Thanks for explaining ano1777, bracek. Quite a radical concept. It's great that so many folks are into it. Still, I don't think it's very inviting to casual users, which is an aspect I feel is important to the goal we're trying to achieve here. I envision something a little more mainstream in its appeal and appearance.

Examples like this, and what MarkM said about EVE, are very useful in determining what the game should (and should not) be. I generally have a strong sense of direction (particularly for aspects that should be avoided), but specific economic/gameplay models are certainly open to discussion.

My concept is not about being a Wall Street broker or banker; too stuffy. I use the term tycoon in the most general sense, such as Rollercoaster Tycoon and Railroad Tycoon (except that it's not about building infrastructure).

I was anticipating someone suggesting a serverless p2p game. Very good points, stan.distortion.

I actually had a strong concept for such a framework a couple weeks ago. I wrote it down, but have not yet revisited the idea. I agree that this architecture would truly embrace Bitcoin (and I have a gameplay setting that could fit the environment), but I think maybe it's too radical for a first step.

But, that's what this topic is all about! What do folks want to see, a more traditional client-server game (with focus on more accessible gameplay), or a p2p architecture (which would take more technical crafting, and the gameplay would likely be a bit more experimental, because it would have to fit a rather non-traditional online gaming framework).

I have an academic background in distributed game protocols (part of my thesis work), but I think it's more difficult and risky... not that that's ever stopped me before.

yes, p2p for sure, to avoid problems with legality,

and u must have a concept that includes giving away bitcoin dust for free,
to a lot of players , so you can have player base,
base your economy on beggars and you won't go bust :)

something lik winning players could have helpers or whatever,
and they then leave some dust behind for followers/helpers to collect

like in sea, sharks have small fish trailing along for chunks that fall behind after feast

I have been playing a self developed hex strategy game with the family for years. I could license it cheap to you if you want.

I have some java code, icons and graphics you might be able to use too (free).

Its pretty simple, but you have terrain, area effects and different unit abilities... like pokemon on a hex board perhaps. I developed it from stratego, but made all units more unique and interactive.

My idea was to make people bet a little btc on winning or others winning.

While p2p is often touted as a way to circumvent laws, and some folks may wish to hide behind the pseudo-anonymity of Bitcoin, that is not an aspect of this proposal. That said, this is a very important point of discussion, as legal issues are some of the the most difficult and expensive aspects of running any business, more-so with Bitcoin because it doesn't have a lot of legal precedence.

Initial bootstrapping of the economy is important. I've considered gameplay elements to support followers/helpers, in fact. Your concept that "winning" leaves behind something for the small fish is a very interesting idea.


I do have a separate military-based game idea in mind (mentioned above), so your comments are certainly open for discussion. However, I have a more gameplay-integrated concept than just placing bets.

I'm going to step away from this discussion for a bit, and see if the community has a consensus on:

• Economic vs. Military gameplay
• Single world vs. Session-based
• Client-server vs. p2p

My vote is for the bold elements. I've basically ruled out RPG and gambling games, but compelling concepts are still welcome.

hihi, want me advice? Forget about doing things like Eve Online clone or anything MMO, or too involved strategy wise, we ain't no Sid Meier. That stuf is all pie in the sky. Want you want is a simple mobile app along the lines of Temple Run or Draw Something. Android and iPhone. Doesn't have to be too original, copy ideas liberally from other top games on the leader board. Maybe connect to other bitcoin apps on the device. The fact that it uses bitcoin itself will give it a good initial marketing boost and sustain its momentum in the early days. Any more info, let me know.

You can do anything you want with my material.

• Military gameplay

Single world
Client-server
[/list]

Sounds to me like you already made a decision, maybe share your idea, no one will steal it.

You could probably use mine quite effectively in a persistent metagame with lots of economics though.

I said I'd step back, but I just can't. Too many good comments.

@stan, I know exactly where you're coming from, but digital objects are definitely beyond the scope here. Exciting to think about, though!

@SuperHakka: Yep, see my initial comments; I agree entirely. That's precisely in line with my thoughts. Simplicity is my mantra.

@Realpra: You're right. It's too open-ended for committee-style direction. What I wanted to learn is whether there is interest. Clearly there is.

I will take the helm and steer the ship: I propose an Economic, Single-world, Client-server, Bitcoin-centric world. More about the setting later.

Crowd-funding was my initial motivation/context for this topic, but honestly, I'm not convinced it's very realistic. By all means, prove me wrong! If the community were to throw hundreds of BTC donations at me, OK, then I'm on board! Donations would be the easiest way for me to get underway, because there would be no legal strings attached, and I already have a business structure (Potential Games LLC) through which I could do all the development, keeping everything on the up-and-up.

Investors and other funding options are much too complicated/risky for me to get into at this stage.  It is my professional aspiration to make a name for myself in the field of Bitcoin software development, and I'd love to make a living developing Bitcoin applications (games or otherwise), but I must choose a path that brings in a reliable income, which probably doesn't leave time for other endeavors.

Funding suggestions welcome.

Make a porn rpg.
Sex sells.

I apologize in advance for the troll, but I can't help this one:

Nyhm: What do you guys want to see in a Bitcoin-centric game?
People: This.
Nyhm: No, this is not what this is focused on.  But srsly guys, what do you want to see in the game?
People: That.
Nyhm: No, that is not what I want to build.  For real though, what do you want to see in the game?
People: The other thing.
Nyhm: Sorry, I don't think the other thing will fit well into this project.
Nyhm: Ok fine, I'll tell you what I intend to make since you can't read my mind!

:D

But seriously, I applaud you for your efforts, and hope you are able to create something epic.  I myself very much enjoy the economic/tycoon type games, so I am looking forward to what you come up with.

No need to apologize, SgtSpike. I didn't mean it, but that's very much how it went down! I'm still no good at public relations, but I'm trying.

When it comes time to discuss gameplay, I am open to public opinion, but starting out by just saying "a game" was way to open-ended. Later, if this takes off at all, I will define a much more solid concept, which can then be shaped and molded.

The first hurdle is funding. Crowd-funding is brilliant in concept, but would the Bitcoin community really get behind such an endeavor? Are there other ways to get Bitcoin funding for such a venture?

That's what I need to focus on, rather than the gameplay specifics. Hopefully, I can keep this ship on course.

I only participate in crowd-funding if I have a reward for it (in this case, a free copy of the completed game), and when I see a project already partway to completion, with "something to show for it".  So, if I were to help crowd-fund your endeavor, I'd want to see you complete it partially in your own spare time, then ask for further funding to focus on it full-time and bring it to completion.  Have some screenshots, a basic demo of it, a really detailed design doc, or something of that nature.

So here's my idea:
Multi-player sim city with satoshi's as the base currency, you have to pay to start your city (i.e., fund it with 0.01 BTC or something to get 1,000,000 credits to start building with).  Cities are placed on a world map.  People can view each others cities.  Cities are constantly in motion - in other words, the gameplay doesn't pause just because you exit the game.

Here's where the money-maker for you comes in, and the challenge/reward for the players comes in:
- A base tax is levied over real-world time.  This is a fixed credit tax.  500 credits/day or something.
- A land tax is levied over real-world time.  This is a variable credit tax, dependent upon how much land you use.  5000 credits/sq mile or something.
- The experienced player must attempt to build a city large enough to sustain itself while paying the taxes.  Anything beyond that is icing on the cake, monies that they can actually withdraw if they like.

It should be difficult to successfully create a large, thriving city, but this is the only way that a person would actually be able to "make money" in the game.  Those monies would come from taxes on cities who don't turn a profit.  The difficulty should automatically adjust according to how much money is brought in from failed cities vs how much money is given out from successful cities.

Hmmm, this actually turned into an intriguing idea as I wrote it.  I kind of like it.

How about a colony/wild-west type of game where people can have roles/shops (farmer, rancher, miner, blacksmith, shopkeeper, etc.)?
The idea is that each player can produce only a limited subset of goods and needs to trade with other players to get everything they need.

I imagine you start as a "worker" and can help an advanced player produce goods in his business (e.g. farm, mine) in exchange for pay.
As you accumulate money/goods/experience you can eventually run your own business.

The key is you can't do everything yourself because have limited time/manpower/opportunities.

When each "role" is filled in a town, then a new town is founded. Towns can also trade with each other, and that is another kind of business.

Aye, and there's the rub. I've already done that (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1391235405/island-forge-establishing-a-creative-player-commun), and I'm proud of everything I've accomplished, but I can't afford to do it again. I need a more reliable income. So maybe a change of tack: Anyone want to hire me to develop such a game? Then I can focus on the parts I'm best at (software development) and leave the business/marketing to those professionals!

Both of the above suggestions are really solid ideas. The SimCity approach really makes a lot of sense, and is a very clever balancing act of growing your city (which consumes more credits for maintenance/upkeep/population), but can generate more taxes if you can maintain it. Funds for the successful players come from a pool, filled by failed cities.

The colony/wild-west game is a very good setting. I'm not sure what the human player does to play, but probably like a sim world in which you direct your character to perform tasks. Or maybe manage your homestead to produce things. I envision it like SimFarm and whatnot; definitely a popular and well-established genre.

(I started writing my game design here, but I need to go back to my notes and do it properly. I've dropped some hints at the setting. I'll publish something as soon as I can.)

I have started a projects section thread responding to two suggestions/posters above in the context of the Galactic Milieu (http://devtome.org/wiki/index.php?title=Galactic_Milieu) project:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108812.0

-MarkM-

Regarding my call for employment... I owe the crowd at least a chance to show support. I'm still looking for work, but I'll keep this game concept to myself until at least the end of September. That is, if you're a company that would like to hire/contract me to develop such a game for you, I am interested, but not until October. (If you want to hire/contract me for anything else, games or otherwise, please let me know!)

What if I set up a donation address, where the crowd can fund this endeavor? Does that sound at all reasonable/realistic? Yes, it's entirely vaporware at this point, but I'll at least document my concept. Please don't use my sig address. If folks want this, I will set up a dedicated address with specific wording on how the funds will be handled. I want this to be as open as possible. What do you think?

With respect to your statement "As much as I'd like to light this wildfire immediately, I must ask you not to contribute to this idea yet, until I can define how the funds will be handled.", it seems like there might be a need for a bitcoin Kickstarter / Indiegogo...

Thanks for reading it! Yes, that's my thought exactly. There is bitcoinstarter.com (http://bitcoinstarter.com) and bitcoinfunding.com (http://bitcoinfunding.com), but I don't really know the details of how those services work yet. It would be much easier to just put up a BitcoinChipIn.com (http://BitcoinChipIn.com) widget and ask for general donations. However, I understand that folks might not be comfortable just putting in donations, no matter what I claim I'm going to do.

The point of that sentence is that I want to make sure everything is clear before I would take anyone's hard-earned bitcoins.