Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: Gareth Nelson on September 11, 2012, 12:36:12 PM



Title: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Gareth Nelson on September 11, 2012, 12:36:12 PM
I would run the other way looking at the media attention right now and the contents of this forum:
https://i.imgur.com/A69u2.png


Anyone else find this really sad? We've got an awesome piece of technology that's secure and reliable, and a huge pile of scammers and unreliable fools - what can be done to address this?

More and more, bitcoin is being viewed by the general public as insecure, that is bitcoin itself - the masses can't tell the difference, and there's various psychological reasons as to why this is.

If people hear a negative fact from some random source and forget the source, they assign a greater likelihood of that source being correct (this is known as source amnesia confabulation), and on top of that there's also a known bias in the media for bad news (good news doesn't sell well compared to bad news - bad news spreads further).

There's only 2 sane approaches here:
1 - Encourage the spread of bad news about other payment approaches and get bitcoin mentioned as an alternative
2 - Reduce the bad news in the first place - this one is going to be essentially impossible to do perfectly with something decentralised like bitcoin - anyone can setup a scam and they'll always have willing victims

What we could do on point 2 however is to try and work on ways to get education out to potential scam victims and to reduce the ease of scams.

One example that comes to mind for how to reduce the ease of scams is multisig transactions combined with a notification feature - if we could integrate a messaging protocol into bitcoin and have a "signature request" message sent to clients for multisig transactions then the following becomes possible:
1 - User has a pile of BTC on exchange
2 - User requests withdrawal of BTC
3 - Exchange sends a signature request to user's client - perhaps we could just handle this by broadcasting a transaction with a "half-signed" input, when the user's client picks it up, it prompts the user
4 - Regardless of the technical implementation, the user gets a prompt on their client asking to authorise sending X amount of BTC, they click yes and enter a password, the client signs it, coins move
5 - The prompt dialog should contain warnings telling newbies how to respond if they did NOT request the movement

It would also be sensible if the main bitcoin clients contained warning messages on how to spot a scam, the first time the user attempts to send funds somewhere a simple message in the send funds dialogue with bullet points asking the user to confirm their understanding (and a "do not bother me again" option) would work well.

Something must be done regardless, because otherwise the bad press is going to kill the market for our little currency, even if we can continue trading it amongst ourselves within the community.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: JackH on September 11, 2012, 12:43:27 PM
How about creating a forum for accusations, investigations and Bitcoin problems in general and let people blow off steam in there?

Keep the main forum problem free and let people take their problems in a forum that is only for registered Bitcointalk.org users? It seems our little tiny community is suffering more and more from "family" problems than as much outsider problems. Nobody as you said can really relate to Bitcoin if they havent gotten the slightest clue about it to begin with, thus removing these VERY LONG and tiresome debates to another forum is a great way to let the public approach to Bitcoin with a positive view, in its first instance.

EDIT: I myself have given up looking at the negative threads. The problems seem to be convoluted and reminds me of a board for teens accusing each other of being bad. Keep the main forum clean, professional and positive.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Gareth Nelson on September 11, 2012, 12:45:46 PM
How about creating a forum for accusations, investigations and Bitcoin problems in general and let people blow off steam in there?

Keep the main forum problem free and let people take their problems in a forum that is only for registered Bitcointalk.org users? It seems our little tiny community is suffering more and more from "family" problems than as much outsider problems. Nobody as you said can really relate to Bitcoin if they havent gotten the slightest clue about it to begin with, thus removing these VERY LONG and tiresome debates to another forum is a great way to let the public approach to Bitcoin with a positive view, in its first instance.

EDIT: I myself have given up looking at the negative threads. The problems seem to be convoluted and reminds me of a board for teens accusing each other of being bad. Keep the main forum clean, professional and positive.

That might help some, but we also need to handle the wider PR issues outside of the community and the underlying ease with which scams occur.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: JackH on September 11, 2012, 01:03:47 PM
That wont be possible. Scam have and will always occur. But we at least should not be the poster board for all scams on the main Bitcoin forum. Start by removing the negative (like any other big institution is doing) and let wounds heal themselves with time.

If scam occurs it wont be plastered all over the main focal point where new users arrive to check up on Bitcoin news and development.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 01:09:27 PM
I would run the other way looking at the media attention right now and the contents of this forum:

There's only 2 sane approaches here:
1 - Encourage the spread of bad news about other payment approaches and get bitcoin mentioned as an alternative
2 - Reduce the bad news in the first place - this one is going to be essentially impossible to do perfectly with something decentralised like bitcoin - anyone can setup a scam and they'll always have willing victims

WHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

So bitcoin has serious scamming problems because scamming is so easy and you deal with it as if its an image problem?
And your solution is propaganda?

LOL at fixing bitcoin like this.

FYI, the problem bitcoin is facing is that noone has a stick to hit with when their coins get scammed out of their pockets.
You'd need to go USSR on the media to propagandize that away...


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Monster Tent on September 11, 2012, 01:11:02 PM
The main reason bitcoin scams are happening is the lack of local bitcoin merchants. You cant just go to the local shopping centre and use bitcoin to trade. thats going to take awhile to change if we cant get out of the problem of trading over vast distances.

Its easier to rip someone off in another country. Not so if they live down the street.



Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 11, 2012, 01:13:15 PM
Perhaps if the staff of the board stopped promoting and engaging in scams it might help a little?

I'd like to see this board deleted, all posts removed and everyone start from zero again. Take the marketplace/scam-central out and make this board only for the discussion of bitcoin and its development as a currency. If there's no ability to make deals here, scammers will go elsewhere.

I'm new as a poster here but have been lurking for a long time and using bitcoin for about 18 months. I'd never tell anyone I know in RL to look at this board. I can go up the street and find all the scammers and beggars I want. I'm not sure why they're not encouraged but also cultivated here.

This place is a damn shame. If this is the future of bitcoin, we're all fucked.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 01:18:35 PM
The main reason bitcoin scams are happening is the lack of local bitcoin merchants. You cant just go to the local shopping centre and use bitcoin to trade. thats going to take awhile to change if we cant get out of the problem of trading over vast distances.

Its easier to rip someone off in another country. Not so if they live down the street.


True and all, but local shops won't accept a currency that is not stable and is overrun with scams.
Unfortunately there is nothing making bitcoin stable and there is nothing preventing scams from flourishing.
As long as bitcoin is not somehow regulated by a big party with a stick no local shop will trust it as a currency.
Well, there are exceptions, but there are allways exceptions.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Gareth Nelson on September 11, 2012, 01:19:00 PM
I would run the other way looking at the media attention right now and the contents of this forum:

There's only 2 sane approaches here:
1 - Encourage the spread of bad news about other payment approaches and get bitcoin mentioned as an alternative
2 - Reduce the bad news in the first place - this one is going to be essentially impossible to do perfectly with something decentralised like bitcoin - anyone can setup a scam and they'll always have willing victims

WHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

So bitcoin has serious scamming problems because scamming is so easy and you deal with it as if its an image problem?
And your solution is propaganda?

LOL at fixing bitcoin like this.

FYI, the problem bitcoin is facing is that noone has a stick to hit with when their coins get scammed out of their pockets.
You'd need to go USSR on the media to propagandize that away...


If you look at point 2 - we have an image problem DUE TO the amount of scams, I was saying we should focus on trying to make scams more difficult.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: da2ce7 on September 11, 2012, 01:21:54 PM
If you were a noobie, maybe all this negative stuff would help you not get scammed so easily... wait...

noobs still get scammed.


Overall I think that It will improve with time; we are in the wild west, it takes people time to adjust from the padded rooms that they are used to.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 01:23:26 PM
Perhaps if the staff of the board stopped promoting and engaging in scams it might help a little?

I'd like to see this board deleted, all posts removed and everyone start from zero again. Take the marketplace/scam-central out and make this board only for the discussion of bitcoin and its development as a currency. If there's no ability to make deals here, scammers will go elsewhere.

I'm new as a poster here but have been lurking for a long time and using bitcoin for about 18 months. I'd never tell anyone I know in RL to look at this board. I can go up the street and find all the scammers and beggars I want. I'm not sure why they're not encouraged but also cultivated here.

This place is a damn shame. If this is the future of bitcoin, we're all fucked.

I find it shocking (and frankly, quite stupid) that people are willing to engage with thousands of $ worth of bitcoin in enterprises that use a 500+ page thread as their main way of communication...


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 01:27:27 PM
If you were a noobie, maybe all this negative stuff would help you not get scammed so easily... wait...

noobs still get scammed.


Overall I think that It will improve with time; we are in the wild west, it takes people time to adjust from the padded rooms that they are used to.
Suuuure, because the wild west just magically settled itself by it's own without any external influence.
For now, things are getting worse, not better.
You should not think that it will just get better, you should think about WHAT will make it better.
How would you make sure people pay debts besides trusting their forum reputation?


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Gareth Nelson on September 11, 2012, 01:30:14 PM
True and all, but local shops won't accept a currency that is not stable and is overrun with scams.
Unfortunately there is nothing making bitcoin stable and there is nothing preventing scams from flourishing.
As long as bitcoin is not somehow regulated by a big party with a stick no local shop will trust it as a currency.
Well, there are exceptions, but there are allways exceptions.

Bitcoin is extraordinarily stable for a three year old floating decentralized currency.

This post makes no sense. Shop owners do not need to worry about scams. They exchange their goods or services for immediate payment. Once the Bitcoin are in their wallet, they are secure.

Doesn't matter, bitcoin is still perceived as something dodgy because of the bad press and people don't think logically.

My answer is to try and reduce future incidences of scams through 2 concrete ideas that could be implemented in the client, that's the real point of this thread.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 11, 2012, 01:30:51 PM
I find it shocking (and frankly, quite stupid) that people are willing to engage with thousands of $ worth of bitcoin in enterprises that use a 500+ page thread as their main way of communication..

I have a permanent palm mark on my forehead from observing how people conduct business here and then complain when they get ripped off. I thought it was all just kids being stupid at first but became a little dismayed when I realized it was adults also.

Greed makes smart people stupid.



Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: justusranvier on September 11, 2012, 01:31:41 PM
There is a type of person who desperately wants a path to easy wealth. This person doesn't want to start a business, invent something, or develop a marketable skill - they just want to "invest" in the right thing and have it explode in value so they can cash out. The kind of person I'm talking about is so desperate they have no problem suspending disbelief if somebody comes by telling them what they want to hear regardless of how warning signs are apparent.

Many of these kinds of people are attracted to alternative currencies and precious metals, and wherever they go they attract scammers like chum attracts sharks.
To solve the problem this thread is about it's necessary to appeal to a different group of people.

That's why I like to emphasize commerce over speculation.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: BadBear on September 11, 2012, 01:32:11 PM
That wont be possible. Scam have and will always occur. But we at least should not be the poster board for all scams on the main Bitcoin forum. Start by removing the negative (like any other big institution is doing) and let wounds heal themselves with time.

If scam occurs it wont be plastered all over the main focal point where new users arrive to check up on Bitcoin news and development.

Hiding the bad won't help anything, if anything it'll make it worse.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 01:32:23 PM
True and all, but local shops won't accept a currency that is not stable and is overrun with scams.
Unfortunately there is nothing making bitcoin stable and there is nothing preventing scams from flourishing.
As long as bitcoin is not somehow regulated by a big party with a stick no local shop will trust it as a currency.
Well, there are exceptions, but there are allways exceptions.

Bitcoin is extraordinarily stable for a three year old floating decentralized currency.

This post makes no sense. Shop owners do not need to worry about scams. They exchange their goods or services for immediate payment. Once the Bitcoin are in their wallet, they are secure.
That would be nice in an all-bitcoin economy.
As long as shop owners need goods from the dollar economy they can see the price of those goods vary over a range of 100%+ seen from bitcoins perspective.

And the question is not whether bitcoin is stable for a floating decentralized currency.
The question is whether it is stable enough to operate on.
For most businesses the answer is 'No'.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 01:34:24 PM
True and all, but local shops won't accept a currency that is not stable and is overrun with scams.
Unfortunately there is nothing making bitcoin stable and there is nothing preventing scams from flourishing.
As long as bitcoin is not somehow regulated by a big party with a stick no local shop will trust it as a currency.
Well, there are exceptions, but there are allways exceptions.

Bitcoin is extraordinarily stable for a three year old floating decentralized currency.

This post makes no sense. Shop owners do not need to worry about scams. They exchange their goods or services for immediate payment. Once the Bitcoin are in their wallet, they are secure.

Doesn't matter, bitcoin is still perceived as something dodgy because of the bad press and people don't think logically.

My answer is to try and reduce future incidences of scams through 2 concrete ideas that could be implemented in the client, that's the real point of this thread.

No, your idea is to keep information about said scams from the publics eyes to make them think reality is different from reality.
It is propaganda and it is a scam to fix the ongoing scams.
Way to go...


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Gareth Nelson on September 11, 2012, 01:35:03 PM
True and all, but local shops won't accept a currency that is not stable and is overrun with scams.
Unfortunately there is nothing making bitcoin stable and there is nothing preventing scams from flourishing.
As long as bitcoin is not somehow regulated by a big party with a stick no local shop will trust it as a currency.
Well, there are exceptions, but there are allways exceptions.

Bitcoin is extraordinarily stable for a three year old floating decentralized currency.

This post makes no sense. Shop owners do not need to worry about scams. They exchange their goods or services for immediate payment. Once the Bitcoin are in their wallet, they are secure.
That would be nice in an all-bitcoin economy.
As long as shop owners need goods from the dollar economy they can see the price of those goods vary over a range of 100%+ seen from bitcoins perspective.

And the question is not whether bitcoin is stable for a floating decentralized currency.
The question is whether it is stable enough to operate on.
For most businesses the answer is 'No'.


We all know the answer there - bitpay are the most well-known, you price in USD and dynamically calculate BTC prices using an external entity.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Monster Tent on September 11, 2012, 01:35:23 PM
Perhaps if the staff of the board stopped promoting and engaging in scams it might help a little?

I'd like to see this board deleted, all posts removed and everyone start from zero again. Take the marketplace/scam-central out and make this board only for the discussion of bitcoin and its development as a currency. If there's no ability to make deals here, scammers will go elsewhere.

I'm new as a poster here but have been lurking for a long time and using bitcoin for about 18 months. I'd never tell anyone I know in RL to look at this board. I can go up the street and find all the scammers and beggars I want. I'm not sure why they're not encouraged but also cultivated here.

This place is a damn shame. If this is the future of bitcoin, we're all fucked.

They could start by implementing some form of bond paid in bitcoins before you can start trading.

Alternatively move all the technical discussions to bitcoin.org and the marketplace implement  id verification similar to glbse.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Monster Tent on September 11, 2012, 01:36:27 PM
True and all, but local shops won't accept a currency that is not stable and is overrun with scams.
Unfortunately there is nothing making bitcoin stable and there is nothing preventing scams from flourishing.
As long as bitcoin is not somehow regulated by a big party with a stick no local shop will trust it as a currency.
Well, there are exceptions, but there are allways exceptions.

Bitcoin is extraordinarily stable for a three year old floating decentralized currency.

This post makes no sense. Shop owners do not need to worry about scams. They exchange their goods or services for immediate payment. Once the Bitcoin are in their wallet, they are secure.
That would be nice in an all-bitcoin economy.
As long as shop owners need goods from the dollar economy they can see the price of those goods vary over a range of 100%+ seen from bitcoins perspective.

And the question is not whether bitcoin is stable for a floating decentralized currency.
The question is whether it is stable enough to operate on.
For most businesses the answer is 'No'.


We all know the answer there - bitpay are the most well-known, you price in USD and dynamically calculate BTC prices using an external entity.

And use updating epaper price tags  :)


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 11, 2012, 01:37:12 PM
They could start by implementing some form of bond paid in bitcoins before you can start trading.

That's a great idea. It would also go a long way to being able to develop such mechanisms in general.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Gareth Nelson on September 11, 2012, 01:40:16 PM
True and all, but local shops won't accept a currency that is not stable and is overrun with scams.
Unfortunately there is nothing making bitcoin stable and there is nothing preventing scams from flourishing.
As long as bitcoin is not somehow regulated by a big party with a stick no local shop will trust it as a currency.
Well, there are exceptions, but there are allways exceptions.

Bitcoin is extraordinarily stable for a three year old floating decentralized currency.

This post makes no sense. Shop owners do not need to worry about scams. They exchange their goods or services for immediate payment. Once the Bitcoin are in their wallet, they are secure.

Doesn't matter, bitcoin is still perceived as something dodgy because of the bad press and people don't think logically.

My answer is to try and reduce future incidences of scams through 2 concrete ideas that could be implemented in the client, that's the real point of this thread.

No, your idea is to keep information about said scams from the publics eyes to make them think reality is different from reality.
It is propaganda and it is a scam to fix the ongoing scams.
Way to go...


Re-read my posts - I mentioned 2 approaches, the first of which is to try and counteract the bad press, which I acknowledge is not the best approach.

The second is to try and reduce the incidence of problems in the first place - this is beneficial for more than just PR for obvious reasons.

To repeat, here's my actual concrete suggestions:

Use multisig transactions and have the client popup a notice when a "half-signed" input is used in a transaction asking the user to confirm they want to sign the transaction - exchange operators should then ONLY use multisig transactions.

When the user clicks to send money, have a list of bullet points asking the user to ensure they know how to protect themselves in the send funds dialog and have the user confirm understanding, at the same time add a "do not bother me again" checkbox - this should be in the mainstream bitcoin.org client but is also wise for other clients too.

We could also try things such as web of trust networks - for known services, they can publish addresses they own through a standard protocol or offer a means to confirm "yes we own this one" or "no we don't own this one" - the client can then tie this into a web of trust and give the user a feedback score on how trustworthy the service appears to be.

Basically we need to do a lot more to reduce the incidence of scams while acknowledging that due to human nature wiping them out completely is impossible.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Graet on September 11, 2012, 01:41:29 PM
Yes Gareth
I find this sad.
It also, even as a medium term user of Bitcoin has me wondering wth I'm doing here some days...
It wouldn't look so bad even if there was just one thread per scam but it seems everyone with a semi related thought has to open a new thread - making everything look much worse as well :/


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 01:42:39 PM
True and all, but local shops won't accept a currency that is not stable and is overrun with scams.
Unfortunately there is nothing making bitcoin stable and there is nothing preventing scams from flourishing.
As long as bitcoin is not somehow regulated by a big party with a stick no local shop will trust it as a currency.
Well, there are exceptions, but there are allways exceptions.

Bitcoin is extraordinarily stable for a three year old floating decentralized currency.

This post makes no sense. Shop owners do not need to worry about scams. They exchange their goods or services for immediate payment. Once the Bitcoin are in their wallet, they are secure.
That would be nice in an all-bitcoin economy.
As long as shop owners need goods from the dollar economy they can see the price of those goods vary over a range of 100%+ seen from bitcoins perspective.

And the question is not whether bitcoin is stable for a floating decentralized currency.
The question is whether it is stable enough to operate on.
For most businesses the answer is 'No'.


We all know the answer there - bitpay are the most well-known, you price in USD and dynamically calculate BTC prices using an external entity.

But then the customers get screwed.
Before they bought the good from the store when btc was $2 and after the transaction check btc price and its $5.
To them they just bought something at more than 200% the price.
So, then the customers must use these bitpay and whatnot services to minimize their risk.
In the end bitcoin would just be an extention of fiat all the way from supply chain to customer.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Monster Tent on September 11, 2012, 01:44:38 PM
They could start by implementing some form of bond paid in bitcoins before you can start trading.

That's a great idea. It would also go a long way to being able to develop such mechanisms in general.

It works on the silk road. It would dramatically reduce the incidence of scams.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 01:47:55 PM
Perhaps if the staff of the board stopped promoting and engaging in scams it might help a little?

I'd like to see this board deleted, all posts removed and everyone start from zero again. Take the marketplace/scam-central out and make this board only for the discussion of bitcoin and its development as a currency. If there's no ability to make deals here, scammers will go elsewhere.

I'm new as a poster here but have been lurking for a long time and using bitcoin for about 18 months. I'd never tell anyone I know in RL to look at this board. I can go up the street and find all the scammers and beggars I want. I'm not sure why they're not encouraged but also cultivated here.

This place is a damn shame. If this is the future of bitcoin, we're all fucked.

They could start by implementing some form of bond paid in bitcoins before you can start trading.

Alternatively move all the technical discussions to bitcoin.org and the marketplace implement  id verification similar to glbse.
Who's gonna trust that and why?
GLBSE terms of service is very explicit on how far you should trust them:
Quote
2. The Exchange assumes no responsibility or liability for any fraud committed on this exchange, but will do its best to prevent its occurrence.
3. The Exchange assumes no responsibility for the terms of assets that are traded or listed on the Exchange, or for the actions of any of the Users issuing assets that are traded or listed on the Exchange.
4. It is not the Exchange's responsibility to ensure that those trading, listing, or issuing assets on the Exchange are operating according to any kind of rules, regulations, laws, or standards those trading, listing, or issuing assets on the Exchange are subject to in any jurisdiction, beyond these terms of service.
5. The Users of the Exchange take full responsibility for their own actions, and any consequences resulting from those actions. It is the Users' own responsibility to determine the risks involved in depositing funds with the Exchange, creating assets, executing trades, or any other activity or action related to the use of the Exchange, or any of its current services.

Translation:
1. If you get screwed it's your own problem.
2. Also, if you get screwed: BWAHAHAHA


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 01:50:39 PM
True and all, but local shops won't accept a currency that is not stable and is overrun with scams.
Unfortunately there is nothing making bitcoin stable and there is nothing preventing scams from flourishing.
As long as bitcoin is not somehow regulated by a big party with a stick no local shop will trust it as a currency.
Well, there are exceptions, but there are allways exceptions.

Bitcoin is extraordinarily stable for a three year old floating decentralized currency.

This post makes no sense. Shop owners do not need to worry about scams. They exchange their goods or services for immediate payment. Once the Bitcoin are in their wallet, they are secure.

Doesn't matter, bitcoin is still perceived as something dodgy because of the bad press and people don't think logically.

My answer is to try and reduce future incidences of scams through 2 concrete ideas that could be implemented in the client, that's the real point of this thread.

No, your idea is to keep information about said scams from the publics eyes to make them think reality is different from reality.
It is propaganda and it is a scam to fix the ongoing scams.
Way to go...


Re-read my posts - I mentioned 2 approaches, the first of which is to try and counteract the bad press, which I acknowledge is not the best approach.

The second is to try and reduce the incidence of problems in the first place - this is beneficial for more than just PR for obvious reasons.

To repeat, here's my actual concrete suggestions:

Use multisig transactions and have the client popup a notice when a "half-signed" input is used in a transaction asking the user to confirm they want to sign the transaction - exchange operators should then ONLY use multisig transactions.

When the user clicks to send money, have a list of bullet points asking the user to ensure they know how to protect themselves in the send funds dialog and have the user confirm understanding, at the same time add a "do not bother me again" checkbox - this should be in the mainstream bitcoin.org client but is also wise for other clients too.

We could also try things such as web of trust networks - for known services, they can publish addresses they own through a standard protocol or offer a means to confirm "yes we own this one" or "no we don't own this one" - the client can then tie this into a web of trust and give the user a feedback score on how trustworthy the service appears to be.

Basically we need to do a lot more to reduce the incidence of scams while acknowledging that due to human nature wiping them out completely is impossible.

Ok, i may have misunderstood your number 2. point.
It reads as if you want to stop the bad press.
We should just focus on stopping the scams and bad press will decline accordingly. Bad press is the symptom here, not the cause.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: BCB on September 11, 2012, 01:51:29 PM
Gareth,

Great points.  Your post brings up a few issues.

1.  I think this forum is becoming a bit of a cesspool, with the the HYIP, Pirate, MNW threads.  There is even a very active thread calling for more civliity so it is obviously something that is greatly desired here.

2.  Drama makes great press so we are never going to prevent bad PR ever.  Look at the hazing big banks are getting today.

3.  The bad press is actually a great smoke screen for bitcoin.  Eventually some of this technology is going to emerge and solve some of these problems and that will be the big new news story. In the mean time, everyone (including govn't and regulators) will keep looking the other way and right now that's not a bad thing while bitcoin is trying to get its act together.  The recent price stablilty says to me that we are one our way.

4. Finally, what are the bitcoin business doing collectively to make this a better, safer community.  It's a shame what happened to bitfloor and yes mistakes were make but what if MT. GOX, and BitFloor and Bit Instant and Bitpay and the Dev team etc shared best security practices and encourage some type of collective collaboration in spite of being competitors (or is that already happening in the background).  I would think the success of everyone's business would mean a more robust economy for everyone.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: da2ce7 on September 11, 2012, 01:52:42 PM
People freak-out about all the scams that happen.  I think that this is mostly growing pains.

Over time the businesses and ventures that are well-run and reputable will grow larger, gain more loyal costumers, and extend their service.

Scammers take advantage of the fact that people are coming from a very different financial world, and are very trusting mainly because: in the traditional world people with guns prosecute you if you scam.

Having a higher power enforce laws is the simple solution to the problem.  However the problem with (the simple solution) is that it creates an environment that people want to escape (hence Bitcoin, and the turmoil of the traditional markets).


The best solution, also happens to be the hardest: Build decentralized secure infrastructure, that has so much utility that people _choose_ to use it voluntarily over the less-secure options.

This is why I said "Give It Time," in my previous post.  Secure Decentralized Networks are NP-Hard.  aka.  They are very difficult problems to tackle (hence why the violent simple solutions are so-often used).
But, I'm optimistic, the Bitcoin Community is full of extremely smart and motivated people that love Bitcoin, and love solving hard problems.  Maybe some of them will have the inspiration to design and implement the novel infrastructure that we require.

This is all growing pains.  If we continue to have the free-transfer of information. (speech and ideas, and in-essence Bitcoin itself).  I believe that the 'ZOMG Scammers' issue will start to fade away.


If all else fails.  At least I'm one of the people working on the infrastructure.  Checkout the Open Transactions project:  https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions (https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions)


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 01:56:14 PM
Use multisig transactions and have the client popup a notice when a "half-signed" input is used in a transaction asking the user to confirm they want to sign the transaction - exchange operators should then ONLY use multisig transactions.

Ok, this would be a good start.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 02:07:18 PM
People freak-out about all the scams that happen.  I think that this is mostly growing pains.

Over time the businesses and ventures that are well-run and reputable will grow larger, gain more loyal costumers, and extend their service.

Scammers take advantage of the fact that people are coming from a very different financial world, and are very trusting mainly because: in the traditional world people with guns prosecute you if you scam.

Having a higher power enforce laws is the simple solution to the problem.  However the problem with (the simple solution) is that it creates an environment that people want to escape (hence Bitcoin, and the turmoil of the traditional markets).


The best solution, also happens to be the hardest: Build decentralized secure infrastructure, that has so much utility that people _choose_ to use it voluntarily over the less-secure options.

This is why I said "Give It Time," in my previous post.  Secure Decentralized Networks are NP-Hard.  aka.  They are very difficult problems to tackle (hence why the violent simple solutions are so-often used).
But, I'm optimistic, the Bitcoin Community is full of extremely smart and motivated people that love Bitcoin, and love solving hard problems.  Maybe some of them will have the inspiration to design and impatient the novel infrastructure that we require.

This is all growing pains.  If we continue to have the free-transfer of information. (speech and ideas, and in-essence Bitcoin itself).  I believe that the 'ZOMG Scammers' issue will start to fade away.


If all else fails.  At least I'm one of the people working on the infrastructure.  Checkout the Open Transactions project:  https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions (https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions)

If secure decentralized networks are realy NP-hard then you cannot say how long it will take for them to be what you need them to be.
It means they are hard at some unknown magnitude.
Being optimistic doesnt change this.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 02:13:33 PM
Yes Gareth
I find this sad.
It also, even as a medium term user of Bitcoin has me wondering wth I'm doing here some days...
It wouldn't look so bad even if there was just one thread per scam but it seems everyone with a semi related thought has to open a new thread - making everything look much worse as well :/

Yes, let's all keep posting in 700+ post pages.
THAT will clear things up.
 :-\

A forum is inherently a dynamic happening.
People are social and stuff, you cannot prevent it without being a mod nazi.
What needs to happen is that businesses should get their OWN forum with subforums about all aspects of that business.
Businesses should not be run from this forum.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: BCB on September 11, 2012, 02:21:19 PM

Businesses should not be run from this forum.


We came to the same conclusion in another thread. This forum should specialize in discussion. It would probably do a better job without the marketplace.

If someone was to start a discussion in the meta sub forum, I would support it.

Interesting.  What is the other thread?


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: da2ce7 on September 11, 2012, 03:00:01 PM

If secure decentralized networks are realy NP-hard then you cannot say how long it will take for them to be what you need them to be.
It means they are hard at some unknown magnitude.
Being optimistic doesnt change this.


Maybe a little faith.

edit: if they are going to be solved, the bitcoin community is the environment where it is going to happen.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: BCB on September 11, 2012, 03:02:15 PM

If secure decentralized networks are realy NP-hard then you cannot say how long it will take for them to be what you need them to be.
It means they are hard at some unknown magnitude.
Being optimistic doesnt change this.


Maybe a little faith.

edit: if they are going to be solved, the bitcoin community is the environment where it is going to happen.

I think we all have faith that bitcoin can and will be something better or we wouldn't be here.  Keep up the good work!


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 03:09:43 PM

If secure decentralized networks are realy NP-hard then you cannot say how long it will take for them to be what you need them to be.
It means they are hard at some unknown magnitude.
Being optimistic doesnt change this.


Maybe a little faith.

edit: if they are going to be solved, the bitcoin community is the environment where it is going to happen.

I think you have no idea what NP-hard means.
Show me mathematical proof of how you solve NP-hard problems with faith.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: BCB on September 11, 2012, 03:12:21 PM
Einstein had faith.  The theory of relativity was pure inspiration.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 11, 2012, 03:15:27 PM
Einstein had faith.  The theory of relativity was pure inspiration.

And a little plagiarism. : )

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_einstein.htm


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: BCB on September 11, 2012, 03:17:23 PM
Einstein had faith.  The theory of relativity was pure inspiration.

And a little plagiarism. : )

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_einstein.htm

Never knew that! 


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 03:33:33 PM
Einstein had faith.  The theory of relativity was pure inspiration.
Deluded human!
Know that all scientists stand on the shoulders of giants.
And Isaac Newton less so then others.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: the_thing on September 11, 2012, 04:54:26 PM
I agree with mobodick and AbelsFire that Bitcoin needs more real commerce and less propaganda and bullshit. People seem to forget that price and value is not the same thing. If the price skyrockets solely due to media attention and "preaching" it will do no good. Healthy economy must stand on real values.

It worries me that Bitcoin business environment consist almost exclusively of scams, illegal shit (SR has a HUGE market share) and gambling. I'm fine with gambling (although it creates some bad publicity), because it is a very sustainable industry. But illegal things are highly unstable and scams are downright harmful.

I'd like to start something legit, but I have yet to find out what kind of service the community really needs. Preferably nothing illegal.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 05:06:46 PM
I agree with mobodick and AbelsFire that Bitcoin needs more real commerce and less propaganda and bullshit. People seem to forget that price and value is not the same thing. If the price skyrockets solely due to media attention and "preaching" it will do no good. Healthy economy must stand on real values.

It worries me that Bitcoin business environment consist almost exclusively of scams, illegal shit (SR has a HUGE market share) and gambling. I'm fine with gambling (although it creates some bad publicity), because it is a very sustainable industry. But illegal things are highly unstable and scams are downright harmful.

I'd like to start something legit, but I have yet to find out what kind of service the community really needs. Preferably nothing illegal.
And on slowly moving goods...
The slow movement acts as a low passed signal giving a more solid base to the jitters of the fast movement of speculation on value.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: ElectricMucus on September 11, 2012, 05:20:06 PM
You think that's bad?

The bad thing is: Once you come forward and suggest implementing a solution, (the third-party signed transactions for example) someone comes along screaming:
"Reversible transactions!!111 Do not want! BTC is no credit card!!"

People need to get the head out of their asses and look at theses issues from a systematic perspective instead of sticking to some fundamentalistic agenda.  ::)


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 05:24:01 PM
You think that's bad?

The bad thing is: Once you come forward and suggest implementing a solution, (the third-party signed transactions for example) someone comes along screaming:
"Reversible transactions!!111 Do not want! BTC is no credit card!!"

People need to get the head out of their asses and look at theses issues from a systematic perspective instead of sticking to some fundamentalistic agenda.  ::)
word.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: the_thing on September 11, 2012, 05:42:29 PM
You think that's bad?

The bad thing is: Once you come forward and suggest implementing a solution, (the third-party signed transactions for example) someone comes along screaming:
"Reversible transactions!!111 Do not want! BTC is no credit card!!"

People need to get the head out of their asses and look at theses issues from a systematic perspective instead of sticking to some fundamentalistic agenda.  ::)
I don't understand how third-party signed transactions protect people from scams.
In fact, I can't imagine other effective protection from scams than personal responsibility. People on this forum have been searching for other solutions, mainly moving their responsibility on others. You wanted a free, decentralized, deregulated currency. Well, this requires a great deal of responsibility. If you can't bear it, you best stop using Bitcoin.

And even though I don't to make ad hominem attacks and feed silly nationalism, I have to say that this seems to me as mainly a problem of "westerners". You guys should man up a little bit.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: FLHippy on September 11, 2012, 06:16:39 PM
If you were a noobie, maybe all this negative stuff would help you not get scammed so easily... wait...

noobs still get scammed.


Early adopters still get scammed.

Dun Dun Dun!!!

Greed is the problem. Greed makes it so easy to rob everyone.





Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: ElectricMucus on September 11, 2012, 06:38:49 PM
You think that's bad?

The bad thing is: Once you come forward and suggest implementing a solution, (the third-party signed transactions for example) someone comes along screaming:
"Reversible transactions!!111 Do not want! BTC is no credit card!!"

People need to get the head out of their asses and look at theses issues from a systematic perspective instead of sticking to some fundamentalistic agenda.  ::)
I don't understand how third-party signed transactions protect people from scams.

Certain kinds, for example the kind of exchange "hacking" we've seen on a regular basis couldn't been pulled off if an exchange wouldn't have direct access to the funds.

I'm not saying that this is the silver bullet, and you are right people need to act responsibly. But it's not the only thing that has to be done either.
How I see it people run around spreading the word that bitcoin it "perfect", part out of greed to give it more userbase part out of fear that innovation could harm their speculative investment if it goes wrong. I am not saying we should hard-fork the existing mechanisms but provide improvements where it is necessary. In this example the possibility to do third-party signed transaction wouldn't hurt anybody, everybody who doesn't like the feature or has no use for it can use regular transactions all they want.

Again: The main thing hindering innovation is this irrational fear that any improvement might backfire and make the investment worthless. This has no basis in reality, nobody will think of bitcoin to be worth less because of some added feature... to the contrary it will probably boost it.


You want reversible transactions via the protocol?  ::)

What's wrong with being a Bitcoin supporter because of the current properties of Bitcoin? This is why I'm here. I don't want protection. I want strong money. Bitcoin is strong money. I'd guess that's why Bitcoin has grown as fast as it has. People value it's properties.

The protocol doesn't need changed. If you are so certain you know how to run things, build a layer on top of Bitcoin and make bank catering to all of the people who want protection.
See this is exactly the kind of fear I am talking about.
Again adding to it, you could still do regular transactions all you want. Don't like to get paid by someone else using it? Just don't accept it. (You can tell)


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: the_thing on September 11, 2012, 06:45:16 PM
Certain kinds, for example the kind of exchange "hacking" we've seen on a regular basis couldn't been pulled off if an exchange wouldn't have direct access to the funds.

I'm not saying that this is the silver bullet, and you are right people need to act responsibly. But it's not the only thing that has to be done either.
How I see it people run around spreading the word that bitcoin it "perfect", part out of greed to give it more userbase part out of fear that innovation could harm their speculative investment if it goes wrong. I am not saying we should hard-fork the existing mechanisms but provide improvements where it is necessary. In this example the possibility to do third-party signed transaction wouldn't hurt anybody, everybody who doesn't like the feature or has no use for it can use regular transactions all they want.

Again: The main thing hindering innovation is this irrational fear that any improvement might backfire and make the investment worthless. This has no basis in reality, nobody will think of bitcoin to be worth less because of some added feature... to the contrary it will probably boost it.
If it is voluntary, I have no problem with it. I think majority of bitcoin users feel the same way.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: blueadept on September 11, 2012, 07:09:22 PM
Multisig-based escrow already allows for reversible transactions. There's no UI for it yet, but the infrastructure exists and requires no or minimal trust. Once popular clients have this ability in their UIs, it will become more popular for all sorts of transactions. When transaction versioning is re-enabled, escrow transactions will be even safer


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: ElectricMucus on September 11, 2012, 07:24:53 PM
Multisig-based escrow already allows for reversible transactions. There's no UI for it yet, but the infrastructure exists and requires no or minimal trust. Once popular clients have this ability in their UIs, it will become more popular for all sorts of transactions. When transaction versioning is re-enabled, escrow transactions will be even safer

thanks


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: moni3z on September 11, 2012, 07:25:56 PM
Type paypal scams into google. There's like a dozen forums solely dedicated to paypal scamming merchants, or various scams people fell for.

Nobody cares about forum drama like pirate ponzi investment or trolls making bets and reneging. That shit goes on everywhere else too. They care about major exchanges getting "hacked" and running away with all their money due to either operator theft or gross security incompetence and no way to get it back. They care about gox freezing their funds like paypal, they care about being paid for something in bitcoins and the value dropping before they can cash out. They care about the security of holding coins on a desktop without being robbed through malware. They care about privacy leaks from the big exchangers to either a random hacker, advertisers or the government.

Trolls + ponzi fallout, not so much




Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 07:45:00 PM
You think that's bad?

The bad thing is: Once you come forward and suggest implementing a solution, (the third-party signed transactions for example) someone comes along screaming:
"Reversible transactions!!111 Do not want! BTC is no credit card!!"

People need to get the head out of their asses and look at theses issues from a systematic perspective instead of sticking to some fundamentalistic agenda.  ::)
I don't understand how third-party signed transactions protect people from scams.
In fact, I can't imagine other effective protection from scams than personal responsibility. People on this forum have been searching for other solutions, mainly moving their responsibility on others. You wanted a free, decentralized, deregulated currency. Well, this requires a great deal of responsibility. If you can't bear it, you best stop using Bitcoin.

And even though I don't to make ad hominem attacks and feed silly nationalism, I have to say that this seems to me as mainly a problem of "westerners". You guys should man up a little bit.
What, a tool to make transactions safer for everyone is not man enough for you?
You also drive without belts, right?
And walk in the sun witout sunscreen etc?
Do you also live in a tent on you lawn and cook your food over a camp fire?
And why would the community care about a guy in a tent on his lawn anyway?
They don't have to. They've got nice comfy third party signed transactions.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 11, 2012, 07:47:37 PM
Multisig-based escrow already allows for reversible transactions. There's no UI for it yet, but the infrastructure exists and requires no or minimal trust. Once popular clients have this ability in their UIs, it will become more popular for all sorts of transactions. When transaction versioning is re-enabled, escrow transactions will be even safer

This is great to know. Thanks.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: the_thing on September 11, 2012, 07:53:08 PM
What, a tool to make transactions safer for everyone is not man enough for you?
You also drive without belts, right?
And walk in the sun witout sunscreen etc?
Do you also live in a tent on you lawn and cook your food over a camp fire?
And why would the community care about a guy in a tent on his lawn anyway?
They don't have to. They've got nice comfy third party signed transactions.
No need to get mad. It was just a friendly advice.

As I said before, volunatary safety features are good.
What I meant by manning up is not crying like a little bitch when you lose money because of your naivety. (case in point : iCEBREAKER took it like a man). Also I meant that people shouldn't rely on third parties to take responsibility for them. You are not children anymore. There is no big goverment to protect your ass.
I don't do any of the things you mentioned.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Tyrion on September 11, 2012, 07:56:59 PM
As a new user, it is certainly demoralizaing to see so many threads about scams all the time. Why don't the mods just ban the discussion of these problems from the  forums? Obviously, it is still important for these issues to be dealt with in private, but it is overall bad for bitcoin for this site to be filled with so many topics that talk about negative things all the time.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: blueadept on September 11, 2012, 08:08:20 PM
This is great to know. Thanks.

Blockchain.info wallet supports multisig escrow transactions now:

https://blockchain.info/wallet/escrow

To be clear, this still won't help if you "invest" your money in a Ponzi scheme. It only helps in actual commerce.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 08:12:31 PM
What, a tool to make transactions safer for everyone is not man enough for you?
You also drive without belts, right?
And walk in the sun witout sunscreen etc?
Do you also live in a tent on you lawn and cook your food over a camp fire?
And why would the community care about a guy in a tent on his lawn anyway?
They don't have to. They've got nice comfy third party signed transactions.
No need to get mad. It was just a friendly advice.
I should have added  :P ...
Quote

As I said before, volunatary safety features are good.
What I meant by manning up is not crying like a little bitch when you lose money because of your naivety. (case in point : iCEBREAKER took it like a man). Also I meant that people shouldn't rely on third parties to take responsibility for them. You are not children anymore. There is no big goverment to protect your ass.
I don't do any of the things you mentioned.
While i completely agree on banning crying like a little bitch when you lose money because of your naivety you'll have to admit that bitcoin can be a bit of a minefield, certainly for newcomers.
Features like built in escrow will be very much appreciated by most of the community i think.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 08:15:17 PM
As a new user, it is certainly demoralizaing to see so many threads about scams all the time. Why don't the mods just ban the discussion of these problems from the  forums? Obviously, it is still important for these issues to be dealt with in private, but it is overall bad for bitcoin for this site to be filled with so many topics that talk about negative things all the time.
Get out. While you still can.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: the_thing on September 11, 2012, 08:16:58 PM
While i completely agree on banning crying like a little bitch when you lose money because of your naivety you'll have to admit that bitcoin can be a bit of a minefield, certainly for newcomers.
Features like built in escrow will be very much appreciated by most of the community i think.
I support your idea. I do not support any centralized regulations.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 11, 2012, 08:18:27 PM
Blockchain.info wallet supports multisig escrow transactions now:

Even better to know. Thanks.

Quote
To be clear, this still won't help if you "invest" your money in a Ponzi scheme.

No worries there.

Even with multisig, it can still lead to the unwary, the unwitting and the greedy being taken in. I know this is obvious to some but it might not be to others.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Tyrion on September 11, 2012, 08:38:11 PM
As a new user, it is certainly demoralizaing to see so many threads about scams all the time. Why don't the mods just ban the discussion of these problems from the  forums? Obviously, it is still important for these issues to be dealt with in private, but it is overall bad for bitcoin for this site to be filled with so many topics that talk about negative things all the time.
Get out. While you still can.

Don't listen to him. I've been using Bitcoin for over a year and a half and haven't lost a single satoshi. If you treat it like real cash money, better yet, gold, you will be fine.

Think to yourself before sending someone Bitcoins, "Would I send a gold coin to this person?"

Yes, see this is good advice and good advice should be encouraged . But all of these threads where people are complaining and talking about how everything is a scam all the time is very upsetting. Perhaps the mods should think of bitcoin as a brand and this forum as a sort of company website. Yes, it is important to address the negative things, but after they have been dealt with with a statement from the forum staff or something maybe it would be best to say that there will be no more discussion of the matter. The goal here is, after all, to make bitcoin a mainstream currency and spreading FUD is counterproductive to that.

edit: or maybe make it so that such talk is restricted to an area visible for forum users above a certain post count?


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: the_thing on September 11, 2012, 08:48:51 PM
As a new user, it is certainly demoralizaing to see so many threads about scams all the time. Why don't the mods just ban the discussion of these problems from the  forums? Obviously, it is still important for these issues to be dealt with in private, but it is overall bad for bitcoin for this site to be filled with so many topics that talk about negative things all the time.
Get out. While you still can.

Don't listen to him. I've been using Bitcoin for over a year and a half and haven't lost a single satoshi. If you treat it like real cash money, better yet, gold, you will be fine.

Think to yourself before sending someone Bitcoins, "Would I send a gold coin to this person?"

Yes, see this is good advice and good advice should be encouraged . But all of these threads where people are complaining and talking about how everything is a scam all the time is very upsetting. Perhaps the mods should think of bitcoin as a brand and this forum as a sort of company website. Yes, it is important to address the negative things, but after they have been dealt with with a statement from the forum staff or something maybe it would be best to say that there will be no more discussion of the matter. The goal here is, after all, to make bitcoin a mainstream currency and spreading FUD is counterproductive to that.

edit: or maybe make it so that such talk is restricted to an area visible for forum users above a certain post count?
As far as I know, the community is very concerned about creating a positive public image, but the problems are real and need to get solved. However, I agree that this has gone too far and the victims are annoying and contraproductive.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 09:07:03 PM
As a new user, it is certainly demoralizaing to see so many threads about scams all the time. Why don't the mods just ban the discussion of these problems from the  forums? Obviously, it is still important for these issues to be dealt with in private, but it is overall bad for bitcoin for this site to be filled with so many topics that talk about negative things all the time.
Get out. While you still can.

Don't listen to him. I've been using Bitcoin for over a year and a half and haven't lost a single satoshi. If you treat it like real cash money, better yet, gold, you will be fine.

Think to yourself before sending someone Bitcoins, "Would I send a gold coin to this person?"

Yes, see this is good advice and good advice should be encouraged . But all of these threads where people are complaining and talking about how everything is a scam all the time is very upsetting. Perhaps the mods should think of bitcoin as a brand and this forum as a sort of company website. Yes, it is important to address the negative things, but after they have been dealt with with a statement from the forum staff or something maybe it would be best to say that there will be no more discussion of the matter. The goal here is, after all, to make bitcoin a mainstream currency and spreading FUD is counterproductive to that.

edit: or maybe make it so that such talk is restricted to an area visible for forum users above a certain post count?
But would you want bitcoin to become mainstream in its current state?
I think that bitcoin is not mature enough to hit mainstream for several reasons.
Just one of those reasons is the increasing scams and robberies.
At the moment a large part of the bitcoin community consists of immature gamblers and that is also why you read so many negative things. There are a lot of negative things going on and everyone seems to want to make a quick buck.
And it needs to be discussed and it needs to be fixed for bitcoin to grow further.
I just don't see bitcoin being used by the mainstream with exchanges being hacked left and right and 7% per week schemes rising from the ground without being dealt with.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 09:17:23 PM
As a new user, it is certainly demoralizaing to see so many threads about scams all the time. Why don't the mods just ban the discussion of these problems from the  forums? Obviously, it is still important for these issues to be dealt with in private, but it is overall bad for bitcoin for this site to be filled with so many topics that talk about negative things all the time.
Get out. While you still can.

Don't listen to him. I've been using Bitcoin for over a year and a half and haven't lost a single satoshi. If you treat it like real cash money, better yet, gold, you will be fine.

Think to yourself before sending someone Bitcoins, "Would I send a gold coin to this person?"

Yes, see this is good advice and good advice should be encouraged . But all of these threads where people are complaining and talking about how everything is a scam all the time is very upsetting. Perhaps the mods should think of bitcoin as a brand and this forum as a sort of company website. Yes, it is important to address the negative things, but after they have been dealt with with a statement from the forum staff or something maybe it would be best to say that there will be no more discussion of the matter. The goal here is, after all, to make bitcoin a mainstream currency and spreading FUD is counterproductive to that.

edit: or maybe make it so that such talk is restricted to an area visible for forum users above a certain post count?
As far as I know, the community is very concerned about creating a positive public image, but the problems are real and need to get solved. However, I agree that this has gone too far and the victims are annoying and contraproductive.

True, but this is also in part a problem of running the whole community, including a lot of businesses, off of one website.
That's another problem with bitcoin at the moment.
New users want to see a happy face but they get to see the raw thing.
I understand this, but i think bitcoin is still not good enough to put up a happy face and be truthfull about it.



Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Tyrion on September 11, 2012, 09:18:42 PM
As a new user, it is certainly demoralizaing to see so many threads about scams all the time. Why don't the mods just ban the discussion of these problems from the  forums? Obviously, it is still important for these issues to be dealt with in private, but it is overall bad for bitcoin for this site to be filled with so many topics that talk about negative things all the time.
Get out. While you still can.

Don't listen to him. I've been using Bitcoin for over a year and a half and haven't lost a single satoshi. If you treat it like real cash money, better yet, gold, you will be fine.

Think to yourself before sending someone Bitcoins, "Would I send a gold coin to this person?"

Yes, see this is good advice and good advice should be encouraged . But all of these threads where people are complaining and talking about how everything is a scam all the time is very upsetting. Perhaps the mods should think of bitcoin as a brand and this forum as a sort of company website. Yes, it is important to address the negative things, but after they have been dealt with with a statement from the forum staff or something maybe it would be best to say that there will be no more discussion of the matter. The goal here is, after all, to make bitcoin a mainstream currency and spreading FUD is counterproductive to that.

edit: or maybe make it so that such talk is restricted to an area visible for forum users above a certain post count?
But would you want bitcoin to become mainstream in its current state?
I think that bitcoin is not mature enough to hit mainstream for several reasons.
Just one of those reasons is the increasing scams and robberies.
At the moment a large part of the bitcoin community consists of immature gamblers and that is also why you read so many negative things. There are a lot of negative things going on and everyone seems to want to make a quick buck.
And it needs to be discussed and it needs to be fixed for bitcoin to grow further.
I just don't see bitcoin being used by the mainstream with exchanges being hacked left and right and 7% per week schemes rising from the ground without being dealt with.

But if we can help bitcoin become bigger, the freemarket will act to suppress the scams. People will learn to avoid them and become more responsible.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: defxor on September 11, 2012, 09:28:39 PM
Einstein had faith.  The theory of relativity was pure inspiration.
Deluded human!
Know that all scientists stand on the shoulders of giants.
And Isaac Newton less so then others.

Except when he quoted Bernard of Chartres on that very subject, of course ;)



Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: ElectricMucus on September 11, 2012, 09:29:50 PM
Scams are best prevented by systematic security, anything else is just icing on the cake.

As long as there are bitcoin "banks" where lots of people store their coins where other people have access to them thefts will happen. There is no "free market" mechanism which can prevent that, everybody is prone to immoral behavior it's just a matter of chance.

What we now need is an exchange where people can use the multisig transaction mechanisms to trade bitcoin for fiat money. That may not be straight forward to do convenient, that's why we have to think how to make bitcoin better not try to debate the issue away.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 09:30:50 PM
But would you want bitcoin to become mainstream in its current state?

Yes.

I think that bitcoin is not mature enough to hit mainstream for several reasons.
Just one of those reasons is the increasing scams and robberies.
At the moment a large part of the bitcoin community consists of immature gamblers and that is also why you read so many negative things. There are a lot of negative things going on and everyone seems to want to make a quick buck.
And it needs to be discussed and it needs to be fixed for bitcoin to grow further.
I just don't see bitcoin being used by the mainstream with exchanges being hacked left and right and 7% per week schemes rising from the ground without being dealt with.

Bitcoin isn't responsible for scams and robberies. Users are. If you know how to fix human nature, by all means share with the rest of us!

If Bitcoins can be used to buy and sell goods and services locally, it would "fix" most of the problems you are discussing. The legitimate trade would far outweigh the occasional scam. People could use Bitcoin at places they've been customers with for decades.

We cannot fix that and you know it.
So the only known solution is to make the system as good as possible at preventing scams and robberies.

I don't think that legitimate trade will grow much faster than scams.
I also think that local use of bitcoin is pretty limited.
If you trust the person then the currency becomes irrelevant.
You could, for instance, use tokens or poker chips.
This is not the strong part of bitcoin altho in this role it functions just as well as anything.
So in my opinion there is not much drive for it to be used in that way.

The realy realy COOL thing about bitcoin is that it can operate over distance.
It acts, effectively, as a currency for the internet community.
That is what is special about it.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: commonancestor on September 11, 2012, 09:31:43 PM
Bitcoin should stick to what it's good at - providing secure and efficient currency through cryptography and distributed networking.
That is fast, cheap, irreversible payments, light-weight wallets which can be used in your local shop, multisign escrow, ...

The community should get more mature and civilised.
Am I right here there were some 50 pages in MNW thread? About a guy who bet, lost, refused to pay, thinking how cool he is? Imo anyone posting beyond the 5th page should be labeled a troll.
Also apparently there exist some people who invested into Pirate's magic funds and now come weeping. There is no way they were not warned before. As Pirate is labeled a scammer, those folks should be labeled dorks.
Also Bitcoin is not another wild west as people are unlikely to build a new virtual justice system. If the existing justice system doesn't protect your schemes, then you should just think of some additional means of security (or give up the schemes). For example, at the moment any public lending should be discouraged because the lenders have got only minimal legal protection. And surely people shouldn't try to make justice by paying a detective and then taking a vote about lynching.
Also the community should make clear their negative stance on matters that are illegal: arms trade, illegal substances trade, money laundering, last but not least scamming and ponzis.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 09:35:11 PM
Scams are best prevented by systematic security, anything else is just icing on the cake.
This, altho i do think that we need to apply the icing generously nevertheless...


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: ElectricMucus on September 11, 2012, 09:44:38 PM
Scams are best prevented by systematic security, anything else is just icing on the cake.
This, altho i do think that we need to apply the icing generously nevertheless...


Yeah it's always good to make it as tasty as possible :)


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 09:48:28 PM
The realy realy COOL thing about bitcoin is that it can operate over distance.
It acts, effectively, as a currency for the internet community.
That is what is special about it.

See, I feel differently. The really COOL thing about Bitcoin is that it's decentralized, that there is a known number of total coins, and that no "authority" can ever confiscate or "freeze" my coins.

That I can send it over a distance is just icing on the cake.

Yeah, but that has no mainstream po-ten-tial.
Bender said it.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 10:12:17 PM
The realy realy COOL thing about bitcoin is that it can operate over distance.
It acts, effectively, as a currency for the internet community.
That is what is special about it.

See, I feel differently. The really COOL thing about Bitcoin is that it's decentralized, that there is a known number of total coins, and that no "authority" can ever confiscate or "freeze" my coins.

That I can send it over a distance is just icing on the cake.

Yeah, but that has no mainstream po-ten-tial.
Bender said it.

Oh? I think it does.

So when normal (mainstream) people go to their local community shop all they think about is "Damnit, now the central government will fuck my monies up and how many fuking monies are there anyway and shit, what if the mothafuckers come and freeze my monies omg" ?



Realy?..


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 11, 2012, 10:15:26 PM
So when normal (mainstream) people go to their local community shop all you think about is "Damnit, now the central government will fuck my monies up and how many fuking monies are there anyway and shit, what if the mothafuckers come and freeze my monies omg" ?

Bitcoin means never having PayPal freeze your account again. That would be a plus for the mainstream user.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 10:18:26 PM
So when normal (mainstream) people go to their local community shop all you think about is "Damnit, now the central government will fuck my monies up and how many fuking monies are there anyway and shit, what if the mothafuckers come and freeze my monies omg" ?

Bitcoin means never having PayPal freeze your account again. That would be a plus for the mainstream user.
That's true enough and paypal should just go away.
And so bitcoin is usefull internet money but not per se usefull pay-yer-local-shop money.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 11, 2012, 10:21:22 PM
And so bitcoin is usefull internet money but not per se usefull pay-yer-local-shop money.

Not now, but that could change if it rises in perceived value to the rapidly crapping out fiat.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 10:33:40 PM
And so bitcoin is usefull internet money but not per se usefull pay-yer-local-shop money.

Not now, but that could change if it rises in perceived value to the rapidly crapping out fiat.
The world runs on fiat.
If fiat craps out the western world will go off like a row of dominoes.
Society as we know it would collapse and large parts of the world would become dysfunctional.
For one, you will have no electricity to use bitcoin.
The network companies that sell you a network connection will have no electricity to run the network that you need to use bitcoin.
If you do have the electricity to run your client (maybe solar) you would have to rely on ad-hoc networks to distribute the chain.
In such a situation, why the hell would you want to know about transactions happening on the other side of the network?

It would be a huge waste of energy while achieving very little.
Bitcoin would be the least of your worries.



Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Tyrion on September 11, 2012, 10:34:53 PM
The realy realy COOL thing about bitcoin is that it can operate over distance.
It acts, effectively, as a currency for the internet community.
That is what is special about it.

See, I feel differently. The really COOL thing about Bitcoin is that it's decentralized, that there is a known number of total coins, and that no "authority" can ever confiscate or "freeze" my coins.

That I can send it over a distance is just icing on the cake.

Yeah, but that has no mainstream po-ten-tial.
Bender said it.

Oh? I think it does.

So when normal (mainstream) people go to their local community shop all they think about is "Damnit, now the central government will fuck my monies up and how many fuking monies are there anyway and shit, what if the mothafuckers come and freeze my monies omg" ?



Realy?..


Most people don't think that now, but with the government printing more and more money whenever they want to "save the economy LOL" its only a matter of time before fiat money is so worthless that people will look for an alternative.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Tyrion on September 11, 2012, 10:35:52 PM
And so bitcoin is usefull internet money but not per se usefull pay-yer-local-shop money.

Not now, but that could change if it rises in perceived value to the rapidly crapping out fiat.
The world runs on fiat.
If fiat craps out the western world will go off like a row of dominoes.
Society as we know it would collapse and large parts of the world would become dysfunctional.
For one, you will have no electricity to use bitcoin.
The network companies that sell you a network connection will have no electricity to run the network that you need to use bitcoin.
If you do have the electricity to run your client (maybe solar) you would have to rely on ad-hoc networks to distribute the chain.
In such a situation, why the hell would you want to know about transactions happening on the other side of the network?

It would be a huge waste of energy while achieving very little.
Bitcoin would be the least of your worries.



Yeah, see , I thought so. You don't really believe in bitcoin do you? Youre just here to troll


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 11, 2012, 10:37:39 PM
The world runs on fiat.

When the FRN loses even more buying power after the next round of debasement, people will start looking for others places to try to keep from sinking. Traditionally, it's been metal. Bitcoin will just add another option. That will add to its mainstream appeal.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 10:42:51 PM
And so bitcoin is usefull internet money but not per se usefull pay-yer-local-shop money.

Not now, but that could change if it rises in perceived value to the rapidly crapping out fiat.
The world runs on fiat.
If fiat craps out the western world will go off like a row of dominoes.
Society as we know it would collapse and large parts of the world would become dysfunctional.
For one, you will have no electricity to use bitcoin.
The network companies that sell you a network connection will have no electricity to run the network that you need to use bitcoin.
If you do have the electricity to run your client (maybe solar) you would have to rely on ad-hoc networks to distribute the chain.
In such a situation, why the hell would you want to know about transactions happening on the other side of the network?

It would be a huge waste of energy while achieving very little.
Bitcoin would be the least of your worries.



Yeah, see , I thought so. You don't really believe in bitcoin do you? Youre just here to troll

Oh wait, because i point out a fact i'm a troll.  ::)

I dont think bitcoin will function in an extremely dysfunctional world as bitcoin is dependent on both energy and products from a functioning world.
That doesn't make me a troll.
I'd rather know for sure than believe anyway.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 10:44:31 PM
The world runs on fiat.

When the FRN loses even more buying power after the next round of debasement, people will start looking for others places to try to keep from sinking. Traditionally, it's been metal. Bitcoin will just add another option. That will add to its mainstream appeal.
Sure, with the added disadvantage of bitcoin disapearing the moment society goes broken.
Metals don't do that.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 11, 2012, 10:48:30 PM

Sure, with the added disadvantage of bitcoin disapearing the moment society goes broken.
Metals don't do that.


Which is why I hold metals, bitcoins and other commodities. Diversify, son!

I invest in bitcoin because I'm making a bet that there'll be a functioning network in two or three years. To agree with your earlier point, if there's no TCP/IP packets flying around the globe, we'll have much bigger things to worry about than bitcoin.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 10:53:46 PM
And so bitcoin is usefull internet money but not per se usefull pay-yer-local-shop money.

Not now, but that could change if it rises in perceived value to the rapidly crapping out fiat.
The world runs on fiat.
If fiat craps out the western world will go off like a row of dominoes.
Society as we know it would collapse and large parts of the world would become dysfunctional.
For one, you will have no electricity to use bitcoin.
The network companies that sell you a network connection will have no electricity to run the network that you need to use bitcoin.
If you do have the electricity to run your client (maybe solar) you would have to rely on ad-hoc networks to distribute the chain.
In such a situation, why the hell would you want to know about transactions happening on the other side of the network?

It would be a huge waste of energy while achieving very little.
Bitcoin would be the least of your worries.



Yeah, see , I thought so. You don't really believe in bitcoin do you? Youre just here to troll

Tyler, welcome to bitcoin wonderland.  ;D


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 11, 2012, 11:02:57 PM
The world runs on fiat.

When the FRN loses even more buying power after the next round of debasement, people will start looking for others places to try to keep from sinking. Traditionally, it's been metal. Bitcoin will just add another option. That will add to its mainstream appeal.
Sure, with the added disadvantage of bitcoin disapearing the moment society goes broken.
Metals don't do that.

Just because there are electricity and internet outages in one country does not mean the entire world is suffering a similar fate. Traveling from a broken country to a non-broken country with your assets in tow may prove quite dangerous. However, my Bitcoins will be waiting patiently on the block chain wherever in the world I may end up.

Guess again.
If the bills are not payed a country goes down.
If that country carries some essential infrastructure or commerce component of the world economy it can affect the rest of the world heavily.
If, for instance, the USA would go down the euro will go down, china will go down, etc, etc, etc.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Tyrion on September 11, 2012, 11:38:44 PM
The world runs on fiat.

When the FRN loses even more buying power after the next round of debasement, people will start looking for others places to try to keep from sinking. Traditionally, it's been metal. Bitcoin will just add another option. That will add to its mainstream appeal.
Sure, with the added disadvantage of bitcoin disapearing the moment society goes broken.
Metals don't do that.

Just because there are electricity and internet outages in one country does not mean the entire world is suffering a similar fate. Traveling from a broken country to a non-broken country with your assets in tow may prove quite dangerous. However, my Bitcoins will be waiting patiently on the block chain wherever in the world I may end up.

Guess again.
If the bills are not payed a country goes down.
If that country carries some essential infrastructure or commerce component of the world economy it can affect the rest of the world heavily.
If, for instance, the USA would go down the euro will go down, china will go down, etc, etc, etc.


It would be more likely that the destruction of the governments would allow anarchocapitalist communities to flourish. there would be a period of instability, but it seems to me that theres enough nowhow for people to start generating their own electricity again and networking their computers relatively quickly, and having seen how vulnerable fiat "wealth" is to inflationary manipulation, people would be ready to turn to a truly stable deflationary currency.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 12, 2012, 12:08:10 AM
The world runs on fiat.

When the FRN loses even more buying power after the next round of debasement, people will start looking for others places to try to keep from sinking. Traditionally, it's been metal. Bitcoin will just add another option. That will add to its mainstream appeal.
Sure, with the added disadvantage of bitcoin disapearing the moment society goes broken.
Metals don't do that.

Just because there are electricity and internet outages in one country does not mean the entire world is suffering a similar fate. Traveling from a broken country to a non-broken country with your assets in tow may prove quite dangerous. However, my Bitcoins will be waiting patiently on the block chain wherever in the world I may end up.

Guess again.
If the bills are not payed a country goes down.
If that country carries some essential infrastructure or commerce component of the world economy it can affect the rest of the world heavily.
If, for instance, the USA would go down the euro will go down, china will go down, etc, etc, etc.


It would be more likely that the destruction of the governments would allow anarchocapitalist communities to flourish. there would be a period of instability, but it seems to me that theres enough nowhow for people to start generating their own electricity again and networking their computers relatively quickly, and having seen how vulnerable fiat "wealth" is to inflationary manipulation, people would be ready to turn to a truly stable deflationary currency.
LOL ok, how will the people of new york make their own electricity and enough of it to run the computers that are needed for bitcoin? Or even better, how will they do it before starving?
Where will they grow their food?
Who will grow their food and for what service in return?
The problem is that a city like new york cannot survive without sitting firmly in the current economy.
If the current economy collapses and goes away they are mostly screwed. I mean, people are going to die, people are going to starve, people will be mostly out of work, people are going to raid etc etc etc.
That's the kind of 'instability' we're talking about.
After such an event it is questionable wether something like a pc, or even bitcoin, will meant the same thing it means now.
But is suspect we would reboot the current system long before it comes to this.




Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Tyrion on September 12, 2012, 12:59:09 AM
The world runs on fiat.

When the FRN loses even more buying power after the next round of debasement, people will start looking for others places to try to keep from sinking. Traditionally, it's been metal. Bitcoin will just add another option. That will add to its mainstream appeal.
Sure, with the added disadvantage of bitcoin disapearing the moment society goes broken.
Metals don't do that.

Just because there are electricity and internet outages in one country does not mean the entire world is suffering a similar fate. Traveling from a broken country to a non-broken country with your assets in tow may prove quite dangerous. However, my Bitcoins will be waiting patiently on the block chain wherever in the world I may end up.

Guess again.
If the bills are not payed a country goes down.
If that country carries some essential infrastructure or commerce component of the world economy it can affect the rest of the world heavily.
If, for instance, the USA would go down the euro will go down, china will go down, etc, etc, etc.


It would be more likely that the destruction of the governments would allow anarchocapitalist communities to flourish. there would be a period of instability, but it seems to me that theres enough nowhow for people to start generating their own electricity again and networking their computers relatively quickly, and having seen how vulnerable fiat "wealth" is to inflationary manipulation, people would be ready to turn to a truly stable deflationary currency.
LOL ok, how will the people of new york make their own electricity and enough of it to run the computers that are needed for bitcoin? Or even better, how will they do it before starving?
Where will they grow their food?
Who will grow their food and for what service in return?
The problem is that a city like new york cannot survive without sitting firmly in the current economy.
If the current economy collapses and goes away they are mostly screwed. I mean, people are going to die, people are going to starve, people will be mostly out of work, people are going to raid etc etc etc.
That's the kind of 'instability' we're talking about.
After such an event it is questionable wether something like a pc, or even bitcoin, will meant the same thing it means now.
But is suspect we would reboot the current system long before it comes to this.




Simple: there would be considerable demand for a way to survive and succeed in this environment, the smart and industrious would find a way to meet that demand. Without a parasitic government actively working against them, I bet you would be surprised how much driven, intelligent individuals would be able to achieve


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 12, 2012, 01:42:43 AM
The world runs on fiat.

When the FRN loses even more buying power after the next round of debasement, people will start looking for others places to try to keep from sinking. Traditionally, it's been metal. Bitcoin will just add another option. That will add to its mainstream appeal.
Sure, with the added disadvantage of bitcoin disapearing the moment society goes broken.
Metals don't do that.

Just because there are electricity and internet outages in one country does not mean the entire world is suffering a similar fate. Traveling from a broken country to a non-broken country with your assets in tow may prove quite dangerous. However, my Bitcoins will be waiting patiently on the block chain wherever in the world I may end up.

Guess again.
If the bills are not payed a country goes down.
If that country carries some essential infrastructure or commerce component of the world economy it can affect the rest of the world heavily.
If, for instance, the USA would go down the euro will go down, china will go down, etc, etc, etc.


It would be more likely that the destruction of the governments would allow anarchocapitalist communities to flourish. there would be a period of instability, but it seems to me that theres enough nowhow for people to start generating their own electricity again and networking their computers relatively quickly, and having seen how vulnerable fiat "wealth" is to inflationary manipulation, people would be ready to turn to a truly stable deflationary currency.
LOL ok, how will the people of new york make their own electricity and enough of it to run the computers that are needed for bitcoin? Or even better, how will they do it before starving?
Where will they grow their food?
Who will grow their food and for what service in return?
The problem is that a city like new york cannot survive without sitting firmly in the current economy.
If the current economy collapses and goes away they are mostly screwed. I mean, people are going to die, people are going to starve, people will be mostly out of work, people are going to raid etc etc etc.
That's the kind of 'instability' we're talking about.
After such an event it is questionable wether something like a pc, or even bitcoin, will meant the same thing it means now.
But is suspect we would reboot the current system long before it comes to this.




Simple: there would be considerable demand for a way to survive and succeed in this environment, the smart and industrious would find a way to meet that demand. Without a parasitic government actively working against them, I bet you would be surprised how much driven, intelligent individuals would be able to achieve
Yeah, there would be a sudden opportunity for guns and knives.
In reality, no single person, not even an smart industrious one, can do the job of organising the enormous supply chain that will keep them fed. These things hinge on international treaties and supply chains.
There is no way for an industrious person or group to step up and replace it. It is a fantasy.

Anyway, i'm getting tired of explaining this stuff.
Live your fantasy, you're completely right.
Some smart people will come to the rescue, you better believe it...


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: commonancestor on September 12, 2012, 08:16:07 AM
I think the debate has gotten bit off-topic with the apocalyptic vision of world without governments :D Well, ok, maybe some newbies are concerned with that too but I think it is not the main decisive factor here. As it was initially suggested, what a newbie often sees here is a mix of scandals (hacked exchanges, scammed investors, ...), mindless talking (trolling, ...), strange folks (get rich quick, ...), and as such may decide to stay away. So what could be done to improve this?

Bitcoin should stick to what it's good at - providing secure and efficient currency through cryptography and distributed networking.
That is fast, cheap, irreversible payments, light-weight wallets which can be used in your local shop, multisign escrow, ...

The community should get more mature and civilised.
Am I right here there were some 50 pages in MNW thread? About a guy who bet, lost, refused to pay, thinking how cool he is? Imo anyone posting beyond the 5th page should be labeled a troll.
Also apparently there exist some people who invested into Pirate's magic funds and now come weeping. There is no way they were not warned before. As Pirate is labeled a scammer, those folks should be labeled dorks.
Also Bitcoin is not another wild west as people are unlikely to build a new virtual justice system. If the existing justice system doesn't protect your schemes, then you should just think of some additional means of security (or give up the schemes). For example, at the moment any public lending should be discouraged because the lenders have got only minimal legal protection. And surely people shouldn't try to make justice by paying a detective and then taking a vote about lynching.
Also the community should make clear their negative stance on matters that are illegal: arms trade, illegal substances trade, money laundering, last but not least scamming and ponzis.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: MysteryMiner on September 12, 2012, 11:19:47 PM
Bitcoins are perfectly suited for criminal activity. Even more than cash or probably gold. If you want safe kindergarten then use PayPal.

First in year 2010 Bitcoins were used by crypto geeks and drug smugglers. In year 2021 it is used by people resisting new world order. If You don't like hyper-inflating paper dollar, nigger as president and don't think fake democracy enforced with army is best form of government, you are just as "criminal" like botnet owner, pedolover or druggie.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 12, 2012, 11:31:07 PM
Bitcoins are perfectly suited for criminal activity. Even more than cash or probably gold. If you want safe kindergarten then use PayPal.

First in year 2010 Bitcoins were used by crypto geeks and drug smugglers. In year 2021 it is used by people resisting new world order. If You don't like hyper-inflating paper dollar, nigger as president and don't think fake democracy enforced with army is best form of government, you are just as "criminal" like botnet owner, pedolover or druggie.

Wait, what??..

You're not even trying...


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: MysteryMiner on September 12, 2012, 11:34:18 PM
Trying what? Trying to pretend that bitcoins are pink and fluffy? Not trying hard enough to ignore that there are such things in a world like black markets, terrorism, osama and obama?


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 12, 2012, 11:43:46 PM
Trying what? Trying to pretend that bitcoins are pink and fluffy? Not trying to ignore that there are such things in a world like black markets, terrorism and obama?

You're not trying to make a clear point. You're rambling.

btw.
black markets have always existed
terrorism has always existed
you're apparently racist

Why is this an interesting addition to this conversation?


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: JMAHH on September 12, 2012, 11:53:52 PM
How about creating a forum for accusations, investigations and Bitcoin problems in general and let people blow off steam in there?

Keep the main forum problem free and let people take their problems in a forum that is only for registered Bitcointalk.org users? It seems our little tiny community is suffering more and more from "family" problems than as much outsider problems. Nobody as you said can really relate to Bitcoin if they havent gotten the slightest clue about it to begin with, thus removing these VERY LONG and tiresome debates to another forum is a great way to let the public approach to Bitcoin with a positive view, in its first instance.

EDIT: I myself have given up looking at the negative threads. The problems seem to be convoluted and reminds me of a board for teens accusing each other of being bad. Keep the main forum clean, professional and positive.

Yeah, and what will people think when they find out we have a separate forum dedicated solely to scams and the like? Sounds like a bad piece of PR to me...


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: MysteryMiner on September 12, 2012, 11:58:41 PM
Trying what? Trying to pretend that bitcoins are pink and fluffy? Not trying to ignore that there are such things in a world like black markets, terrorism and obama?

You're not trying to make a clear point. You're rambling.

btw.
black markets have always existed
terrorism has always existed
you're apparently racist

Why is this an interesting addition to this conversation?

My point is why people care that Bitcoins are used for such things? It is easier to buy pound of marijuana than gallon of milk using bitcoins. Of course I also have nothing against using bitcoins to buy food other than space cookies, but bitcoins are not mainstream currency for now. I still use dollars and euros and love them. Then more then better!

Black markets exist because some things are banned.
Terrorism exists because there are oppressors and oppressed people who better blow themselves and enemies to pieces than being oppressed and humiliated.
I am racist. Problem?


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 13, 2012, 12:02:49 AM
Trying what? Trying to pretend that bitcoins are pink and fluffy? Not trying to ignore that there are such things in a world like black markets, terrorism and obama?

You're not trying to make a clear point. You're rambling.

btw.
black markets have always existed
terrorism has always existed
you're apparently racist

Why is this an interesting addition to this conversation?

My point is why people care that Bitcoins are used for such things? It is easier to buy pound of marijuana than gallon of milk using bitcoins. Of course I also have nothing against using bitcoins to buy food other than space cookies, but bitcoins are not mainstream currency for now. I still use dollars and euros and love them. Then more then better!

Black markets exist because some things are banned.
and when was this not the case?
Quote
Terrorism exists because there are oppressors and oppressed people who better blow themselves and enemies to pieces than being oppressed and humiliated.
and when was this not the case?
Quote
I am racist. Problem?
yes.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 13, 2012, 05:16:53 AM
black markets, terrorism, osama and obama

All of them are creatures of State or government "rule", oddly.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 13, 2012, 05:19:20 AM

The only redeeming feature of ignorance is that is announces itself so clearly.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 13, 2012, 09:18:32 AM
black markets, terrorism, osama and obama

All of them are creatures of State or government "rule", oddly.
Yeah, and states form when large ammounts of people organise into a society.... oddly enough.
Fix overpopulation and you can all live in tents in communities of 10 and make yer own food and all.
But don't expect there to be food in shops, houses with central heating, and cars, and computers, and bitcoin (along with black markets and terrorism and presidents).


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 13, 2012, 09:19:38 AM

The only redeeming feature of ignorance is that is announces itself so clearly.
too true.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: FlipPro on September 13, 2012, 09:19:53 AM
This thread should be moved. To a "soulful" discussion in Meta.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: commonancestor on September 13, 2012, 12:50:24 PM
My point is why people care that Bitcoins are used for such things? It is easier to buy pound of marijuana than gallon of milk using bitcoins. Of course I also have nothing against using bitcoins to buy food other than space cookies, but bitcoins are not mainstream currency for now. I still use dollars and euros and love them. Then more then better!

Black markets exist because some things are banned.
Terrorism exists because there are oppressors and oppressed people who better blow themselves and enemies to pieces than being oppressed and humiliated.
I am racist. Problem?

Maybe we agree that bitcoin is neutral.

:)


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 13, 2012, 04:07:03 PM

Yeah, and states form when large ammounts of people organise into a society.... oddly enough.

That's open to argument. Society doesn't depend on the State but the State always depends on society.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 13, 2012, 04:27:28 PM

Yeah, and states form when large ammounts of people organise into a society.... oddly enough.

That's open to argument. Society doesn't depend on the State but the State always depends on society.

Let's see how open this argument is.
Name one fairly large and successfull society without any form of state or central governance.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 13, 2012, 04:36:26 PM
Name one fairly large and successfull society without any form of state or central governance.

Why does a society have to be large to be considered successful?

The Amish are one example. Until the formation of Israel, Jews are another.

Societies are based around the meeting of wants and needs. States are based on coercing societies.

Another example: Anyone who uses bitcoin is a member of a society. Where's the State?


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 13, 2012, 04:49:00 PM
The state will soon (50 years or so) be a nice history lesson.

I'm hoping. Glad to know there are others out there.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 13, 2012, 05:18:17 PM
Name one fairly large and successfull society without any form of state or central governance.

Why does a society have to be large to be considered successful?

The Amish are one example. Until the formation of Israel, Jews are another.


Both amish and jews use their religion as a central autority and even justice system so no go here.
Religion in general is one of the biggest players on the central governance market.

And any society that is successfull will grow. Grown up and large societies have somehow been successfull.
Even vikings had laws and courts and other centralized institutions.



Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 13, 2012, 05:24:50 PM

Yeah, and states form when large ammounts of people organise into a society.... oddly enough.

That's open to argument. Society doesn't depend on the State but the State always depends on society.

Let's see how open this argument is.
Name one fairly large and successfull society without any form of state or central governance.

The U.S.A. became the world power it is because of the freedoms it's citizens were allowed. Over time though, government does as it always does and becomes thoroughly corrupt.
But were these freedoms devoid of central governance at the time when the USA became this power?
And yes, corruption will happen.
And decentralisation will not eradicate that.

Quote

We have technologies today that would help facilitate a stateless society. These technologies are all relatively new. Freedom of information is a vital part.
What technology replaces law and law enforcement?
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The state will soon (50 years or so) be a nice history lesson. Just because something hasn't been accomplished yet, does not mean it's a bad idea or impossible.
Not as long as humans can accumulate wealth and power.
You cannot have wealth and power without some way of preventing abuse of it.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 13, 2012, 05:53:01 PM
Both amish and jews use their religion as a central autority and even justice system so no go here.
Religion in general is one of the biggest players on the central governance market.

And any society that is successfull will grow. Grown up and large societies have somehow been successfull.
Even vikings had laws and courts and other centralized institutions.

Religion was the center of their society. All societies are societies because the individuals in them share a set of assumptions and beliefs. Those assumptions and beliefs could be spread over hundreds or thousands of people in any geographical configuration. Centralization of society, government, doesn't make a state. The assumption of tribute to a minority sector of the society does. This tribute is always extracted through force and fraud, hence the non-aggression principle of any self-respecting libertarian, anarchist, or other foe of predation as a means of making a living.

I think the real confusion, larger than the one that confuses society and government, is the one that confuses government and the State.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 13, 2012, 06:07:43 PM
Both amish and jews use their religion as a central autority and even justice system so no go here.
Religion in general is one of the biggest players on the central governance market.

And any society that is successfull will grow. Grown up and large societies have somehow been successfull.
Even vikings had laws and courts and other centralized institutions.

Religion was the center of their society. All societies are societies because the individuals in them share a set of assumptions and beliefs. Those assumptions and beliefs could be spread over hundreds or thousands of people in any geographical configuration. Centralization of society, government, doesn't make a state. The assumption of tribute to a minority sector of the society does. This tribute is always extracted through force and fraud, hence the non-aggression principle of any self-respecting libertarian, anarchist, or other foe of predation as a means of making a living.

I think the real confusion, larger than the one that confuses society and government, is the one that confuses government and the State.
I'm sory, but that is plain wrong.
The very definition of a state is the organisation and centralisation of government.
By not acknowledging this you deny the specific problems of large populations.
If you want  to consider bitcoin on a larger scale you would have to, though..


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 13, 2012, 06:12:50 PM
Both amish and jews use their religion as a central autority and even justice system so no go here.
Religion in general is one of the biggest players on the central governance market.

And any society that is successfull will grow. Grown up and large societies have somehow been successfull.
Even vikings had laws and courts and other centralized institutions.

Religion was the center of their society. All societies are societies because the individuals in them share a set of assumptions and beliefs. Those assumptions and beliefs could be spread over hundreds or thousands of people in any geographical configuration. Centralization of society, government, doesn't make a state. The assumption of tribute to a minority sector of the society does. This tribute is always extracted through force and fraud, hence the non-aggression principle of any self-respecting libertarian, anarchist, or other foe of predation as a means of making a living.

I think the real confusion, larger than the one that confuses society and government, is the one that confuses government and the State.
By this definition a casino is a state...
Any business that takes more than it gives would also fall under this category.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 13, 2012, 09:00:28 PM
The very definition of a state is the organisation and centralisation of government.

No, a State demands and enforces tribute.

Quote
By this definition a casino is a state...

A casino can't throw the law at you if you choose not to associate with them.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 13, 2012, 10:08:57 PM

Yeah, and states form when large ammounts of people organise into a society.... oddly enough.

That's open to argument. Society doesn't depend on the State but the State always depends on society.

Let's see how open this argument is.
Name one fairly large and successfull society without any form of state or central governance.

The U.S.A. became the world power it is because of the freedoms it's citizens were allowed. Over time though, government does as it always does and becomes thoroughly corrupt.
But were these freedoms devoid of central governance at the time when the USA became this power?
And yes, corruption will happen.
And decentralisation will not eradicate that.

Quote

We have technologies today that would help facilitate a stateless society. These technologies are all relatively new. Freedom of information is a vital part.
What technology replaces law and law enforcement?
Quote
The state will soon (50 years or so) be a nice history lesson. Just because something hasn't been accomplished yet, does not mean it's a bad idea or impossible.
Not as long as humans can accumulate wealth and power.
You cannot have wealth and power without some way of preventing abuse of it.

The federal government was designed to be weak with specific limited duties. It seemed to work, as the US grew into a world power. Now it's an empire, and the strong, corrupt federal government will be it's downfall. 

Decentralized money eradicates corruption of a central bank. Decentralized information eradicates corruption of the media. Imagine what decentralized energy, transportation and food will eradicate.
Decentralisation does not work well on goods that are bound to some region. Energy productio, transportation and food all fall in this category.
They al depend on location and how that land can be used. You cannot farm all land, you cannot put roads everywere and you cannot win energy efficiently everywere. The land dictates the distribution.

Money in the form of bitcoin and media are information which is much easier to decentralize.


Quote

Law enforcement is reactionary.
Not at all, there is the effect of it being present which has a permanent preventinve action.
Imagine how the streets would look if there was no law enforcement at all.
Quote

 Education replaces law and law enforcement.
Not at all, usually both are needed.
Not everyone is capable of enough education and not everyone cares enough.
I would also add religion as a 3rd way to steer and control humanity.
Each of these three covers some part of society.
You have education, if that fails you can scare them and bind them with religion and if that fails there is actual force.
These are the classical tools with which societies are kept stable enough to grow.
Quote
Do you need a law telling you not to kill? Steal? Rape? I don't.
Me neither, but the general population couldn't prosper without it.
A law against killing is useless if noone kills but that is not how reality works out.
I mean WTF, you realy think that if there is no law against killing noone will kill?
If you have a free market there will be no scams?
Quote

Don't confine yourself to outdated failing systems simply because you can not conceive of a better way of doing things.
Give me something more solid than what you suggest otherwise i'd take the old system any time of the day.
As you can see from my answers above you do not have a very realistic look on humanity. You speak in unatainable ideals.
It seems blatantly obvious to me that you don't have a clue about why we got to this point or how the world works now and would just as easy throw it away for some flimsy fantasy of how you THINK it should work. The fact that i can easily attack these ideas from all sides means they are leaky as hell and totaly not wel thought through.
And noone can give me any straight answers to the hard questions i ask.
Problem with real life is there is not debugging time... It has to work and that is why it is wise to learn from history and adjust accordingly. That means you need to change this system from within and do it gradually. You cannot overlay your ideas and expect them to work. They won't because they would be completely out of context.
First you'd have to think realy realy hard if your new system of "who the hell needs laws" and decentralisation will be able to feed nearly 7 billion people when this depends on so many established trades.
Quote

As long as humans can accumulate wealth and power without production. This is the true problem. Government produces nothing, yet being a part of it can lead to both wealth and power. Which path will the corrupt choose? Will they gain wealth and power by producing goods and/or services that people want/need, or will they gain wealth and power by greasing the wheels of a corrupt system? The government isn't preventing abuse, it is the abuse!
No, it is not the true problem. Even if there is production, power and wealth corrupts.
You can see this in how corporations and lately business in general work.
Even if they produce someting usefull they can still act as powerfull assholes.
This is a symptom of power and it is indiscriminate of position in society.

BTW, government produces lots, just not goods.
But there is more to society than goods.
And you cannot just compare all governments.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 13, 2012, 10:10:36 PM
The very definition of a state is the organisation and centralisation of government.

No, a State demands and enforces tribute.



Quote
By this definition a casino is a state...

A casino can't throw the law at you if you choose not to associate with them.


If a casino couldn't use the law they would make their own laws and enforce them.
And, yes, casinos have their house rules and you can be thrown out if you don't obey.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 13, 2012, 10:13:41 PM
The very definition of a state is the organisation and centralisation of government.

No, a State demands and enforces tribute.

Quote
By this definition a casino is a state...

A casino can't throw the law at you if you choose not to associate with them.
They can if you insist on staying on their premise.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: Severian on September 13, 2012, 11:34:01 PM
They can if you insist on staying on their premise.

A government using force to exact tribute is a little different from voluntarily walking into a place to gamble and getting belligerent with the management.


Title: Re: If I was a newbie....
Post by: mobodick on September 14, 2012, 12:22:58 AM
You can see this in how corporations and lately business in general work.
Even if they produce someting usefull they can still act as powerfull assholes.
This is a symptom of power and it is indiscriminate of position in society.

For starters, a corporation is a government construct. Without the government to legitimize things such as limited liability, these entities wouldn't wield the power that they do today. The infiltration of government by large businesses has resulted in a conglomerate that is free to create laws to strengthen itself. The very thing which, in your mind, is supposed to reduce the power of something has increased it, drastically.
I can agree to the fact that they can get laws pushed through but not freely.
Still a worrysome development and i think this kind of power should be reduced.
Quote
As for the rest of the post, perhaps another time. Some of your interpretations of what I've said are so far from what I've actually said that I consider it borderline trolling.

For example:

I mean WTF, you realy think that if there is no law against killing noone will kill?

I never said anything of the sort and the fact that you think I did shows that communication with you is probably futile.

You said : Do you need a law telling you not to kill? Steal? Rape? I don't.
Which to me says: "Hey, we don't need laws".
So that remark was relevant and i still think WTF.
Otherwise please explain what you mean by that.