Bitcoin Forum

I've been watching the charts and the increase in total computation speed seems a bit excessive even at current exchange prices.  Take a look. They're nuts!  It seems to have shot up significantly right around the time that Butterfly Labs would be mass testing some of their 7000+ pre-ordered ASIC chips.  Hmmmmm :P

They say vague things in their posts on purpose but given their anticipated ship dates, trust me, at this point they're definitely done manufacturing them and are working on testing and packaging them.  You don't finish a 1st release device and cross your fingers and hope it runs once it gets to the customer.  You run it for 24+ hours to make sure defective ones don't go out :D So I do wonder if they're running many, many GH/s worth of them at once to do a bit of a burn-in or mass reliability test.  And why crunch dummy data when you can make money mining? :D

If circumstantial evidence isn't enough, try simple business logic.  The price is set at $149 for a 3500MH/s chip. At current prices, they would make $149 after about 10.8 days of mining!  So why doesn't Butterfly Labs just run them for 10.8 days instead of selling them?  Then they'd have $149 and the chips lol.  I mean seriously, read those last 2 sentences again, people.  You think they're not mining with them?  I can't be the only one that realizes this.  From a business perspective, if you had an investment that would pay off 200% in a month and you sell it off instead, you're a crazy person.

So I think a huge portion of them are fully assembled and running right now.  The question is, under these circumstances, when would they stop mining?  Simple. Keep mining until one of 4 things happens:
1. someone notices the potential ability to do a >50% of total computational power attack as that would cause everyone to jump ship and crash the price like the Hindenberg.  By the way, they *potentially* have over 30,000GH/s worth of mining hardware in inventory at the moment and everyone else in the world cumulatively has 21,000.
2. "At current prices, they would make $149 after about 10.8 days of mining" <-- until this is no longer remotely true for any reason
3. someone posts #1 on a bitcoin forum :D
4. everyone gets super, mega, raging pissed off that the devices are taking too long to ship

So they're either waiting to get closer to the split (see #2 above) or for all their mining to drive the price down slightly in a roundabout way (also #2) or any of the other reasons.  All that pre-order money could easily fund the manufacture and hold of a TON of inventory for a month or two so I seriously think that gigantic spike in the charts is primarily them mining.  They have slightly over $1 million USD worth of preorders right now by the way.  That'd buy the chips, hubs, PCs, internet, electricity, and building for a gigantic mining operation :P

Of course, they'd never ever admit this.  Bitcoin mining is an arms race.  First it was CPUs then GPUs then FPGAs now ASICs and each were like 10x faster than the last, forcing everyone to buy them.  It's just like guns vs grenades vs nukes.  Since mining is competitive and you only get your share of a certain amount of coins, well back to the analogy in that deals tend to go sour when you find out that the arms dealers are also using the weapons TO SHOOT AT YOU BEFORE YOU BOUGHT THEM!!! ROFL.

So this is all kinda scary, bad news but the good news is, if I'm right that means when the Jalapenos and other ASIC models ship out, the total speed will drop for like a week then go back to a similar level to what it is now :P

I had the same thought yesterday and honestly i would not doubt it.  If you need to test the units anyways, why not make some $?

Or...

When bitcoin value goes up, the incentive to mine increases.

Just had a big bitcoin conference, with interest spreading.

But most clearly, if BFL's ASICs are anything remotely to spec, mining with even 500 would be far more noticeable than the current hashpower increase.

I thought I had read that they would take a bitcoin address (or pool credentials) from customers and use that for mining.

i would do it too.
this is where ethics will come in to play.
IF BFL truly wants BTC to succeed, they will never run enough units to take over 51% of the hashing power at any one point.
Also, they WOULD take the profits from the mining, no doubt. But considering the magnitude of profits, i believe they would donate a sizable chunk to various bitcoin related projects, ( that is IF they want bitcoin to succeed on a larger scale )

they would not run more than a certain limited number of units at a time.
they would not run them any longer than required to ensure that they are working fine and will not malfunction after shipping.

the question here is, how ethical is BFL?

The logic make sense, but the network hashrate is less than 100% up compared to july (and price fully 100% up).
I expected something quite spectacular from ASICS.

http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-small-lin-ever.png

Exactly.  Until you notice it on the following chart, this additional hashing could just as easily be coming from existing miners that are picking up the GPUs sold by other miners who are liquidating their GPUS to buy FPGAs (or to place orders for ASICs).


https://i.imgur.com/Z5ppr.png

 - http://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate?timespan=all&daysAverageString=7&scale=1

I asked Josh from BFL at the conference.
He said he was sure BFL isn't causing this sudden network capacity peak by testing there ASICs.
Who or what is causing it he doesnt know he said.

It could just very well be all the mini-rigs that have shipped up til now. There are plenty of them in the wild @ 25GH/s.

That's what doesn't make sense.  Now is the worst time to pick up GPUs.  Everyone knows about FPGAs and everyone should know about the 50 -> 25 split coming up and should know that ASICs are coming out that will put their GPUs to shame.  So a big July-August rush to add to their rigs seems extremely unlikely.  It's really the worst time to expand a rig and yet there's the graph.

Now I guess more people hearing about BTC who already own a radeon card and simply start mining is very reasonable but still, that's an awfully big increase!

On the other side of things, the jump in August was about 6000GH/s.  That's 1714 Jalapenos, which would be hard to realistically run.  I'd say a company like that could easily come up with 25 testing PCs in 1 room that 1 person could operate alone for testing/mining with sufficient air conditioning, etc.  Prices get nuts with bigger hubs but you can pick up 8-port powered USB hubs and some power strips pretty cheap.  Most boards don't start having issues until you plug in more than 4 USB connections.  Usually cheaper boards have issues using all 14 (H77 chipset has that many I think).  So at 4 each, that'd be 800 units at once.  Keep in mind, they make A LOT bigger devices than the Jalapenos but if they're all Jalapenos, that's 2800 GH/s.  That'd explain half the increase.  Now if you were to take away 2800GH/s from that graph, you get a steady increase at a more similar rate to the many months before it.

Btw, random thing: BFL said they will not sell enough units to 1 individual customer if they suspect they're attempting to >50% attack them.  It's not a 51% attack, as 50.00000001% would do it btw so everyone stop saying that, lol.  Anyway, given the distributed 7000+ pre-orders, they'd need to make about 1.2x more and sell them all to 1 person lol.  That's over 10,000 of their smallest units.  So yeah, no worries there.  The only people that really >50% it is themselves.  But it's stupid for anyone to try that because as soon as you submit bad data to transfer a million BTC to yourself then verify the data yourself with your epic hashing cluster, thousands of people wonder where their BTC just went, everyone panics sells off theirs since the whole system is broken, and they're holding BTC worth $0.01 lol.  Good luck selling it, lol.  Oh, and without the ability to determine ownership, they probably would steal MTGox's BTC bank in the first place which would instantly shut them down.  So double good luck selling their stolen BTC then, lol.  An attack like that would be really, really pointless unless someone simply wanted to shut down the system, not actually make money from the attack.  I have a feeling BFL would be very unhappy if BTC failed so no, I don't think they'll try that :P

That's what's so insane about that.  They're investing all this money to run a company and design chips and pay their programmers and test everything just to make a profit.  When they'd make $100/week running their wimpiest chip, they're running some of their wimpiest chips.  Just how many PCs and hubs and switches they wanted to throw at it is the limiting factor but I don't think they're running like 4 of them lol.

They just don't want anyone to know that they're competing with all their customers by mining alongside them for big big $$$.

I do know Josh also mines for him self on a big scale with the current BFL hardware.
I don't think it's up to me saying how much he has now. I do know though. :)

I would not say that it doesn't make sense until an ASIC is proven to exist.
Moreover the price increase in the same period probably attracted to mining many with suitable VGAs (gamers) and possibly even investors looking for a quick shot and low risk (since VGA won't lose much value fast whatever happens to BTC), not speaking of motivating marginal miners like me to get back to work, until the going is good.

They better!  They have $1 mil in pre-orders for them, lol.


:-O

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/wizzerd911/07c.jpg

There's already a post on reddit with this same concern (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1018ky/q_if_these_fpga_and_asic_miners_are_really_worth/)

The top comment by sgtspike brings up a very good point:

"Let's see... would you rather approach a venture capitalist (who knows nothing of Bitcoin), and say, "Hey, I need $2M, and I'll make $12M in sales in a year," or "Hey, I need $2M, and I'll make 1.2 million of this funny internet currency"?
Yeah...
Also, another factor you haven't taken in to account: If BFL was known to have more than half the hashing power of the Bitcoin network (which they undoubtedly would be able to achieve if they produced their own ASIC chips and mined on them before anyone else), all confidence in Bitcoin would immediately falter. And when confidence falters, the price drops, like a rock. And when the price drops like a rock, all those BTC that BFL is mining become worthless. Suddenly, they are out a $2M investment, and it was all for nothing.
They are helping to preserve the Bitcoin network by getting ASIC miners into as many people's hands as possible, increasing confidence, the price per BTC, and, logically, their sales (higher BTC price = more sales)."

I just said most of that :P although it reminds me of 1 more reason...maybe they're sick of everyone killing mother earth with millions of watts of GPU power so they they went all earth hippie on us and released something that uses like 100x less power to achieve the same results.  It's possible...are they from California?  ;D

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/wizzerd911/post.jpg

Probably a good way to offset the cost, if they're selling them at a loss...

It's also a good way to burn-in the units and see which ones suffer infant mortality.

If this is BFL testing their ASICs, where are they mining?

http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/chart.php (http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/chart.php)

If BFL was adding 6TH/s to the network testing ASICs, you would expect them to be solo mining. If they were running with a pool, EMC would be the natural choice. None of that is seen in the pool block stats; the ratios are pretty close to what they've been before. Slush is down, and 50BTC is 2TH/s up in the last 2 months, but nothing that would conclusively show BFL to be testing ASICs.

^This. You won the prize!

I can name (just from people who I know have them) ~19 Minirigs, so that's 475Gh/s right there - I doubt BFL manufactured less than 100...

I also think it's unethical for an employee of a hardware manufacturer to be mining on the same equipment.

Sorry folks, but in a market such as this, it would never be tolerated in other businesses. How do we know Josh doesn't have a competitive advantage ? Is he going to get a 1 TH unit first ?

I think the guy runs a great pool and has been a stand up guy, but once you go to work for a hardware manufacturer, it's kind of bullshit to be competing against your customers in something like mining where timing is everything.

Just my 2 cents. I am NOT saying Josh is doing this and as I understand he ordered his mini rigs before he worked for them.

I just continue to shake my head at how naive BFL seems to be in terms of building reputation. What are they going to sell once the network is saturated and there is no demand ? A more efficient ASIC isn't going to mean shit and if they make a 2 TH rig for the same price then they are screwing their preceding customers. This is really going to be an endless cycle I'm afraid.

On the other hand, building long term relationships built on trust and open information can go along way in a community full of people who are drawn toward decentralization.

there could be a testing phase in a real world situation going on here.
if they do make the money back on the hardware that means they
can order more parts to make more mining equipment.

self replenishment.

there are at least 2 other outfits racing BFL to bring ASIC to market, and BFL is still shipping FPGA hardware daily

the hash, it increases, we know not from where

its everywhere man

May I ask what increase you're talking about ? what graph you're looking at ? http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-2k.png ?

What is : "...the time that Butterfly Labs would be mass testing" ?

If there's nothing shadier than what's on the surface, I really don't have a problem with them mining with them.  It makes perfect sense.  If there's some sort of planned obsolescence going on, that I'd have a problem with but they're doing a trade in so it doesn't seem like their style.  If they're planning to outmine everyone after the orders are filled, that would be pretty bad lol.

Btw if there has indeed been no major shift between who solves which coins compared to each other, they could be multi-pooling to hide it or just not running as many as I think.  Who knows.  It's just too unbelievably stupid to not make a quick $100 off each card for a week before shipping them.

You know, the average laptop manufacturer gets $42 for preloading all the ebay links and norton demos and BS utilities and free trial crap.  Companies like Norton pay them big bucks to preload their software in hopes that full versions or demo extensions will be bought, and they are cuz people are lazy.  I think it's pretty shady but hey, $42 off a laptop lol.  So if the cards cost like $175 to manufacture and they mine with each for a week before shipping it and then sell for $149, that's fine with me :P Just lowered my price.  They do obviously have to stop mining when they turn off the card and ship it to you so they're not directly competing, except for X amount that they have mining at any given time.  Still, it's saving you money up front.

oh and to transisto, I mean the 6000 GH/s up from the end of July on that website.  And I based butterfly labs' timeline on gaming console release times since they're followed like hawks on Engadget and Slashdot.  When Microsoft makes a release date for the Xbox 360 for example, it means they're boxing for 4-5 weeks ahead of that date, shipping a few days before it, testing individual units for 2-3 weeks before both of those, testing initial demo units like 6 months even earlier, etc.  So with Butterfly labs' anticipated release date, they would have had quite a few assembled and in their hands in early to mid August.  The most money can be made while nobody but them as an ASIC obviously :D They do still have to beat their competition though, as someone pointed out.  The fact that other companies are making ASIC chips is awesome because without any competition, they'd be selling for $400 and be released 6 months from now :P

Many of us have sold bitcoin at 5-6$ to pre-order into the first batch, so yes there is something very wrong with them mining with our hardware.  They have specificaly stated they would not, I don't know why you are so happy with it and finding this "normal" business behavior.

They will most likely be selling ASICs at a huge profit once they've covered their fixed cost. There is nothing forcing them to accept trade-in or refund of past ASICs once they release much cheaper ASICs. They don't give any kind of price protection and I am very concerned by this.

What 400$ ?  Their 150$ jalapeno is a non-issue and their actual competitive SC miners start at 1200$ and 30k$

When the first FPGA I saw came out, it was 400MHs and around $600.  There was zero competition.  To a certain extent, making a chip is making a chip so the fact that these are $149 is amazing.  But with 2 more companies breathing down their necks with similar ASICs, tada, it's $149.  I'm just saying if those 2 competing companies weren't out there, charging $400 instead of $149 for something that runs at 3500MH/s would be perfectly acceptable to most people so they would.  In fact, they could probably get $800.

+1

If BFL truly wants BTC to succeed, running 51%+ hashing power is no problem.  In fact, the only way to guarantee against a 51% attack is to know who controls more than half the network.  If that entity is you, and you are honest (follow the standard rules), no attack is possible.

If BFL just sees BTC as an means to an end, then we may have a problem.

Botnets.  Once all the gaming computers in China have been pwned, the rate will stop increasing.

I have no idea why he concludes that this is due to BFL testing ASICs.

The graph closely relates to the price of bitcoins, which can be the reason more people are mining.

Bitcoin has also received large growth so it's not surprising actually to see the hash rate increase that much.  It's inevitable with so much profitability.

OMG I LOLed so hard haha! I'm am Potatorpheius

Though many are claiming "soon"

From the Bitcoin wiki:


 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison#ASICs

:O I...I...I just can't not post it!

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/soon

lol :P

SOOOOOON!

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/wizzerd911/soon_zpsdc4d8bac.jpg

Yeah, I loled mega hard at potato morpheus the first time I saw him.  I seriously had some kind of attack or something from laughing too hard so now I'm dead and totally ghost posting.  Anyway, Morpheus comes in quite handy :D Like for example:

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/wizzerd911/money_zpsbf3e0bd5.jpg

My business plan for butterfly labs would be somewhat simple
1. Plug in devices we made
2. hit go
3. $$$$$$$$

Seriously, the only question right now is how many they're actually running and thus how much of that gigantic mining power spike is them.

However you want to phrase it, BFL has always been at the forefront of disruptive product announcement.

You have your cause - effect on pricing backward.

I've read all of your posts here and it's baseless, wrong and speculative all the way.

Yeah, they managed to hugely disrupt the market of FPGA boards that could actually be built by announcing impossible specs for their Bitforce Singles and again by pre-announcing their ASIC line with equally impressive specifications. Now, disruptive products, that they haven't been so good at so far.

Josh told me that the owner of Butterflylabs has a buissness history of keeping stuff secret and silent.
And he certain doesnt have any experience with posting on a forum or maintaining websites.
Thats why (untill now) stuff has seem so shady and all I guess.

Did you even take economics in school?  With no competition, you can charge the moon.  That's cause and effect.  If they really get 3500MH/s and let's say a 5830 costs about $115 and typically reaches 320MH/s overclocked, they could charge $1000 and it would still pay off about 20% faster, not counting electricity which is also a huge difference.

But lets say the chips cost $75 to make.  Well, some other company comes in and says we don't need a $925 profit. We'll sell them for $700.  Then the 3rd company comes in and says we'll sell them for $500 because that's still $325 profit.  Suddenly everyone just has a bottom line contest and it ends up at $149.  Or one cheats and mines with them to drive the profits up so they can lower the cost and their products are the ones that take off instead of their competition.  But like I said, if all they had to compete with were GPUs and their ASICs were the only ones, they could and would charge A LOT of money.

And what exactly is wrong with my mysterious, giant leap of a connection that they made a product to sell to people to make money and mining with that product for a very short period of time would make a lot of money so they're probably doing it, as they do want to make money.

Also, 1 person close to them already confirmed that they're mining with an undisclosed about of hardware at the moment.

Then there's the fact that you really can't send out a product like this without running it for at least a couple hours to make sure it works.  Don't want to give your company a bad reputation for like 10% of their products failing in the first week when customers get them.  It's a 1st generation experimental product you know.

So where's my break in logic you're talking about?

Seriously? The president of BFL got extradited from Italy and sentenced to 26 months in federal prison for mail fraud stemming from a large internet Ponzi scheme. That's a little more than "keeping stuff secret and silent".

Except that BFL does have competition, from 3 other companies. And guess what?! They're all within ~ 10-20% of GHs/1kUSD, some better, some worse.

They've mentioned multiple times that they use their own algorithm for checking to make sure the miners are working.  They compute known hashes, and compare the results of the computations with the known numbers to be sure they match up.  They specifically stated they do not mine while testing because they do not want their units to attempt to send corrupt or otherwise bad information to the rest of the Bitcoin network.

Where's the source for that?  Haven't heard about that before...

Was that before or after they got busted mining with their FPGA's on EclipseMC?

Original post:

Inaba's confirmation:

Jesus, do people just sit around all day thinking up ways to complain about BFL? What is with this desire to put arbitrary restrictions on other people's actions?

I highly doubt BFL_Josh/Inaba is going to get hardware out of the order than BFL has promised and without some *actual proof* this post comes across as slander and extremely inappropriate to me.

If BFL_Josh/Inaba wants to mine, I don't see how there is a conflict of interest in him using BFL equipment. I'd be a hell of a lot more suspicious if he didn't have some equipment on order. That would be a bigger red flag than this.

Everybody calm down. You'll get your magic money boxes in due time.

Don't know, didn't hear about that either.  Source?

While I'm on the topic. The original post is nothing but slander. I opened it expecting to see some, I don't know, charts and ties to bitcoin reward addresses which are then linked to IP addresses under BFL control. You know; EVIDENCE. Instead, the premise is horribly flawed when it's well known that minirigs and fpga singles have been flying out the door and there is strong motivation for people to crank up their dusty GPU rigs.

Where's the instantaneous 1TH/s jump in hashrate? Not a sloped line, a complete discontiguous jump.

If you're going to make an extrodinary claim, then fucking back it up. Otherwise, don't waste this forum's time.

There is zero risk of this happening - either a hash is correct or it is not.  Any node can instantly determine this with certainty and refuse to acknowledge a bad one.

It's because the hashrate is only an estimate based on the number of blocks solved in a given time period.  There is a LOT of variance in those shorter time periods.

I was waiting for someone to confirm my suspicions on that.  Thanks.

IIRC, it came up months ago that BFL does to an offline burn-in test to their FPGA Singles, to verify that their units are creating proper hashes (comparing to known results). Then, they would sometime fire up the Singles on a pool, to verify that they also work in a live environment, but it was never more than a few minutes or so. BFL posted a screenshot of their account, and had only mined ~100,000 shares over several months of testing.

Now that was months ago, before they shipped this many MiniRigs, and before the ASICs, but I don't see why they would change this, esp when it says in their FAQ that they won't.

All of our equipment is burn tested after final assembly/testing for ~24 hours on a live pool (In this case, EMC).  After the burn-in, it's taken off the rack, packed and shipped the same day.  We do this for both the singles and the mini rig and the singles PSU's (we've had a few of those go bad, so now we burn those in as well). 

We are not mining with any ASIC equipment at the present time.  You can be sure there would be a big announcement if we had turned up the ASICs on a live pool.

Well apparently if the extradited from Italy for fraud part is true, I don't think BFL would have any problem faking a screenshot.  I could turn 1 million shares into 100k in about 15 seconds in photoshop :P Or just mine with like 10 computers, each on a different pool. That's basically 100% undetectable.  It'd look like an even rise across the whole bitcoin system.

Btw I see someone posted a picture of butterfly labs in the general forum :D

EDIT: O, hai Josh! *waves*

"You can be sure there would be a big announcement if we had turned up the ASICs on a live pool."

Kinda no way to "be sure" but how do you have real world pool-based bitcoin mining hash numbers posted if you're using artifical hases only?  There has to be a heck of a variance with no offsite server to contact.  Certainly with 7000 pre-orders, you did make sure they function using live bitcoin protocol data at some point? lol.

Also, new butterfly labs logo, perhaps? what do you think?:

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/wizzerd911/butterfly-labs_zps5027bc4e.jpg

Thanks for the information.

I know of at least another 10.

When paired with ASIC technology BFL testing practices are disturbing.

For an initial batch production and shipment of BFL SC equipment how much will the "live pool" ASIC mining affect difficulty prior to ASICs being in the wild?

Let's say a conservative estimate of 20 TH total capacity for the first batch run.  Let's say one month of production where units are coming off the line assembled and being stored for batch shipment.  Of course, not before the essential live pool testing.   ???


Would it then be reasonable to assume that the equivalent of approx. 666 GH per day in units would be in "live pool" burn-in testing? 

Difficulty adjusted that's still well over 200 BTC, or 2500 USD, per day skimmed off the top.


You know this looks bad, right?

I have to agree that it looks bad.  At least they're being upfront about it (finally).  I still won't be cancelling my order over this though.

Did it ever occur to people that self ASIC mining could have always been part of the plan?

BFL promised tentative dates of Oct or Nov for ASIC deliveries. As long as they met that, then no one has any right to complain or state BFL is acting inappropriately. If BFL planned for ASIC completion in September and to self mine for 2 months, and only then deliver en mass to purchasers, that would be completely consistent with what people bought and paid for.

People bought an ASIC to be delivered by end-of-November and for those parts to function for 1 year. Whatever BFL does with the hardware before end-of-November is their business....

just my 2 cents.

So what do you want them to do? You want them to NOT run thru a QC test and ship a product that has never been verified to be able to bitmine?! I'm sorry, but a 24-hour burn-in to test that my product actually works is well within their rights, and I'd prefer it that way!

I worked at a card dealership when I was younger. We would get BRAND NEW cars off the truck, straight from the manufacturer, but the odometer would read anywhere from 10-300 miles. Some of our customers wanted a car that read 0 on the odometer. We had to explain: these cars get tested and used at the manufacturing facility, and will not have zero milage. That's just the way it is. How'd you like it if you get a car from the manufacturer, with 0 miles, and it didn't start?! You'd complain that their Quality Control was poor! Same thing here.

BFL, Inaba, hugs  and kisses to both of you.


But Please.


Do not you dare test a difficulty changing amount of hashing power on mainnet.

THIS IS WHAT TEST NET IS FOR.

USE IT.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Testnet (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Testnet)

More like testnet-in-a-box.

If we tested on testnet, it would make testnet useless, since it would spike the difficulty to unmanagable levels. 

Regardless, we aren't testing any ASIC equipment on the live network either now or in the past, so it's pretty immaterial.  We already have a plan, which I explained to several people at the Bitcoin conference on how we are going to handle the live testing when that time comes.

Crazy.  Respectfully.  The analogy is unnecessary in this case.  Also, Bitcoin has main-net and then test-net.  Test-net is for testing and is protocol compatible enough to test hashers.


The more people that don't know about test-net the more this "Quality Control" issue can be passed off as a prudent, professional activity.  In reality it's a QC measure and a way to skim off the top of mining profits.

Effectively, raising difficulty prematurely before the ASICS are in the hands of customers.  It's slimey.

Disagree.  Explain your point.  Rendering Testnet useless for non BFL testing activities is what I assume you mean?  Provide a supporting argument for this.



Immaterial?  Maybe immaterial to the OP's point, but it's quite material to what BFL will introduce in terms of difficulty prior to customer delivery of your product.
As the PR person for BFL are you really going to shrug off this very valid point? 

You, BFL rather, have a plan?  And it was discussed with select individuals at the conference.

How is this any sort of representation of the company to your customers.  I could care less about the conversations you had at the conference.


This is such a condescending and weak argument.  Unless you have some amazing point about why test-net would be rendered a hulking piece of junk by unleashing your ASIC's on it this sounds like misinformation.

You'll have to talk to Gavin and the others than maintain test net if you want answers to that.  They have repeatedly requested that people not mine on test net because it raises the difficulty, making it impossible to test with.  If we unleashed 20 TH onto test net for even 24 hours, it would make it unusable for everyone else.  Feel free to disagree, but this has been an issue for a couple years now, please go research it.

Yes, I am going to shrug off this invalid point because we are not now and have not been testing ASICs on the live network, so it's an immaterial argument. 

But you WILL test ASICs on the live network?  Why has the information surrounding this testing only been disclosed to select persons at the Bitcoin conference?  Why will you not disclose that information to everyone else?

It's not an immaterial argument just because you haven't done it in the past, when you are obviously going to do it in the future.  And the fact that you refuse to give out the details of this to the community as a whole has me concerned now.  What can be so bad that you cannot reveal it until it happens?

Yes, Josh.  You aren't treating your customers very well on this specific point in raising visibility to the issue of QC mining on main-net.

You know what kind of response this was likely to get.  And that response might have very well affected sales volume unless BFL convinced the majority why it was unavoidable to use main-net for testing.

Shrugging it off and acting like it's a non-issue and not treating the matter with the seriousness and disclosure it deserves - while there might not be an easy answer to avoiding main-net - really reflects poorly on your skills in dealing with important PR issues.


Well, at least there's competition now.


edit:
Even if the test-net dev's request that you not mine there does not preclude BFL's ability to have an isolated testing environment with a few nodes and a pool.  I do not see the justification for broadcasting blocks to the production network - for every single device - just to satisfy QC concerns.

It's not bad, I just don't want to make a commitment and then have to break it due to unforeseen difficulties. As to "why" those details were told to certain individuals at the conference, it was simply because they asked. I don't even know who the various individuals were that I explained our plan to.  If the community did not react so violently to changes in statements made here, we would be more open about our plans, but as it is, if we make a statement and then later have to change that, it turns into a giant mess.

Nedbert9:  We have the best interests of Bitcoin as a whole at heart.  Since you disagree that keeping the security of the network is of paramount importance, please let me know what your order number(s) are and I will get your refund issued immediately so that you may pre-order elsewhere.

You know, even if they eventually ran the cards for absolute profit/testing purposes, yeah they're driving up the difficulty but every single chip they make is going out into the field eventually and it's obviously going to be mining.  So if they make 1000 and run them themselves for a bit, those 1000 are going to drive up the difficulty no matter what.  So what if BFL makes it happen a week earlier?  That's not that big of a deal, especially if it lowers the price for you.

In fact, if it costs $200 to make and they want a $50 profit then they mine $100 worth of BTC with it before it's released then send it to you for $149, not only is it tested to work to save you headaches with an RMA but basically most of that money they just made went into your pocket because it would have cost $250 if they had not mined with it.  That why I keep saying I wouldn't have a huge problem with it.  I'd have even less of a problem with it if they donated all BTC mined to a bitcoin charity or this forum or the development team or something.

Btw so you don't break the test net, maybe someone should develop a temporary.....butterfly net! lol. It writes itself, people.

To be honest, I don't really care much that they are going to do this, but they could mine against a p2pool that is modified to not submit the winning block, and simply log the success. This would mine on mainnet and still be verifiable.

Alternatively they could mine the coins PPS into individual wallets and sent a printout of the private key import details. I get the feeling that this isn't the same as the cars because those cars weren't driven to the financial benefit of anyone. If you found out that the reason the odometer was 300 was because Ford was renting the cars out on a daily basis and pocketing the money, then you might be less happy about it.

But ultimately I don't really care. I just want my ASIC to arrive working.

Please gentlemen can we please cut the bullshit?

I mean seriously, this argument is pointless.

If BFL Is mining with ASICs on main-net its for one reason and one reason only.

To make an incredible profit.

It would be very simple for someone to make an alternate "testnet"

that way BFL could test their asics without disrupting the difficulty of main-net or test-net.


However it would be INCREDIBLY profitable for someone like BFL to "test" ASICs on main-net and this is the reason they would do so.

+1 or if you must.... the 1T units consider contacting the recipient of those units and use their credentials for that 24hr period

However...

+1


Then again their may be others that will put their systems on main-net with out us ever knowing.

However if you were one of the first to purchase your SC's using BTC valued at 4.6 - 6.4 USD then this could be a slap in the face...

To repeat, for the cheap seats:
     testnet-in-a-box
     http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/testnet-in-a-box/

testnet-in-a-box is a simple setup that provides a two-node network suitable for fully validated, off-network testing.  testnet-in-a-box testing is fully private, and will not disrupt mainnet and or testnet.

Further, note that testnet has special rules just in case a miner blasts the difficulty through the roof, then disappears:

For BFL, testnet-in-a-box would provide validity testing without disrupting any public network.

for some reason I was under impression that BFL would not disrupt network difficulty with customer's hardware (testing), I think someone from BFL mentioned it in one of threads few month ago.

For burn-in testing please consider setting up alternative test environment. 

I still find it surprising that even if BFL would in the future run every customer's card for 24 hours and that makes like $15 or something so it knocks some price off the card since BFL would be making money and then you receive a fully tested and much more likely to work product and use it to mine for the other 364 days of the year and you still have a problem with that?  That's just dumb.

What I'd have a problem with is a "buy one get one me" deal where they actually cost $75 to produce so for every one BFL sells you, they buy themselves one and run it and basically mine against you forever with your own money :P I have a feeling they wouldn't do that, lol.

I don't think it's legal to throw those in the garbage in any of the 50 states lol.

Seems to be back to normal.

next dif 2796746.67390 13 days. Yesterday it said next dif 38*****.**.

Testing on the main net is bullshit and everyone knows it.

It has been clearly stated many times that testing could be done easily on a variety of testing platforms which would not effect the main net or increase difficulty.

You don't compete against your customers in ANY business, period. It is illegal and unethical.

Under NO circumstances should any hardware vendor be mining bitcoins for profit with customer hardware. There is NO excuse for this period.

It is also unethical for someone who works for said company to be competing against the customers of that company.

Testing on the main net only reduces customer profits for a MAXIMUM of 14 days, and in reality it's much lower than that. After 2 weeks of mining, the difficulty gets recalculated, and the BFL testing from 2 weeks before will have no further affect on your profits.

Stop justifying their actions. This "no big deal" attitude is what has fostered the majority of the scams on here.

The owner of the company is a convicted felon on counts of FRAUD.

It matters to everyone who buys their product, period.

Difficulty rising for two weeks is bullshit and that's not the point. You have bought their products, in effect they are competing against YOU.

You and everyone else who pre-funded their product with limited or no recourse should at least expect to get your stuff quickly and without competition from your supplier.

How about the fact that there will only ever be 21 million coins ? You don't think it matters that they will have mined thousands of those with your hardware ?

Screw difficulty, the fact is you and everyone else can NEVER mine those coins.

Just so we're clear on this: cablepair and ngzhang should not mine bitcoins at all.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79637.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110090.0

I specifically stated "customer hardware". I also think they need to disclose if they will be mining also.

Cablepair and Nzhang have been upfront about this.

Here's a thought: Just use a mining client which allows you to filter the difficulty of blocks as you generate them. Just artificially mine at a higher difficulty (e.g. 100 fold) than the main network. That means that you throw blocks away which meet the network target, but not your own target.
Simple yet efficient. Also works on the test net.

That would be a comprise solution. You forfeit some of the profits, but you get to mine on the main network...

This is a glossing over of the matters at hand.

So, it's ok for BFL to lack transparency, so that it's easier to perpetrate activities that the mining community would frown upon?  Interesting.  So very ethical of you.  That's exactly the kind of community focused company policy I enjoy.  Do you realize that every BFL customer made a purchase decision under the false pretense that BFL would not be participating in the mining of bitcoins?



That is an amazing mis-characterization of my concerns.  A politically crafty statement to redirect attention from BFL misleading the community early on and falsely suggesting that it is technically, or practically, impossible to QC BFL units without impacting main-net.


Protecting Bitcoin means you need to QC - every unit for 24 hours - on main-net....  really?


Sinking pretty low eh?


Re:  Returns.  I wouldn't be so stupid to reveal my orders to you and not auction them off.  I'm def considering it.
Not for this, but since your glorious leader likes to scam old people in the mail.




 

Your questions and concerns would be an excellent addition to scary-eyed-batman's "town hall" list.

So let me get this straight, just so we are clear:

1. You disagree with our non-existent policy to mine on main net with the ASICs we are not currently mining on main net with.
2. You hate BFL and everything we do because we are somehow "shady and dishonest"
3. I offer you a refund, but you don't want one because you
4. Want to sell your place in line to someone else, so you can profit on the loss of someone else buying your place in a supposedly shady company that you hate.

Riiighhhhtt... I guess that morality of yours just goes right out the window when it comes to your profit motive, huh? 

So which is it, are you greedy and only looking out for yourself or are you altruistic and really believe what you say?  If the latter, cancel your orders, vote with your dollars!  If the former, sell your place in line or keep them.  Either you believe what you say and you'll cancel or you are trolling, which is it?  I'm going to guess you aren't going to cancel your orders, your greed will win in the end.

You can't win in a flame war Inaba. Please take a more measured response and work on the "town hall" thing that has been setup.

Thanks, you're right, vote with your BTC! 

1) That wasn't a straw man, I was condensing and restating his desires so far.  If they are incorrect, I wait for him to correct me and describe how what I've said is incorrect.
2) It's not, however, when there's an irate, irrational customer, it's best to fire them.  It costs more to deal with problem customers than the profit you make, so it makes more economic sense to part ways from a business perspective.  If people are unhappy, we will gladly issue a refund, because it takes far more time and effort to deal with the constant stream of complaints, most being imaginary or blown out of proportion, than it does to just refund the money and move on.  When the rare instance comes along with the complaint is legitimate and scaled properly, we are glad to deal with that.

So unfortunately, in cases like these, all the "money we'll be making" is less than all the money we'll be losing trying to satisfy people who just can't be satisfied, and believe me, there are a lot of them on this forum.

Huh, I never considered the fact that even if everyone canceled, we would still have the hashing power, but you're right.  That thought does not sit well with me though, I definitely do not want BFL or any single entity to have that much hashing power under one roof, jeez.  That would be a nightmare.

Inaba.  I have valid concerns and others have the same take as I do.  (think about the PM traffic going around taking about both BFL developments)

Are we all 'bad customers' and we all need a refund since what customers think really can be a PITA sometimes?  Do we all "hate BFL" since we voice our concerns?


I really can't dignify your response any further.  It's just silly - every single point. 

So which is it, are you canceling your orders are selling your place in line?  Greed or Morality, choose!  :)

One problem of being a big mining entity is that you suddenly have to spend a lot of money on cyber security and you become a target for authorities.

@Inaba: if you're reading this what about the proposal of reduced profits I stated earlier. Can you comment on that?

BTW I find it justified if a company decides to use their products to make profit. And I don't see the company as competing with miners, because it just engages in OWNERSHIP transfer when it takes the unit and sends it out to the customer. Big difference!

Many here have provided excellent advice about good PR and customer service.

Josh/Inaba in the past you have done some good things for bitcoin. You have run a great pool, written guides, etc. but you are currently failing as a spokesman for a company which is in need of someone to improve its image.

Your takes on business and customer service are laughable. You have clearly never run your own business nor do you have the proper training/demeanor to run one.

I don't mean have a single employee(yourself) as running your own business.

"Pain in the ass" customers tell far more people about you and your company then completely satisfied customers.

PR is about tact and consistency. You lack both.

I'm sure you don't appreciate my criticism, but if you want to succeed in your current position I would suggest you take a deep think and rework your personal strategy on this.

Also, kill your dual persona, it means nothing to people anymore. You ARE JoshBFL, period.

You can cancel/refund my order, I've never had one because I don't loan people my money for free to develop their product lines.

A) If you need customer service, shoot them an email. Their email support is very helpful, and can be done in privacy. Arguing on forums is hardly a way to work out any issues you have.

B) Wait, you've never ordered anything from BFL? Then why do you care?!

You know what was meant by customer service, it is the totality of the service. Not simply an email request or phone call, but ALL avenues of customer interaction, including this forum.

I care because I actually give a shet about bitcoin as part of a social movement.

I know most here subscribe to the kill or be killed philosophy, I don't.

Yes I have run a business for almost ten years. I have a degree in political science and I am half way through an MBA program.

All sorts of people love to give armchair advice to the people doing actual work.  It's easy to make pronouncements on how to do something when you don't actually have to do it... unfortunately 99.9% of the time, those pronouncements are miserable failures; I suspect deep down they know they would fail if they tried the "suggestions" in the real world.  

You see it in sports all the time.  The fat dude on the couch yelling at the TV about what a player should have done.  Really?  If it's so easy, why aren't you out there doing it?  

Same goes for business advice - if you know exactly how to do things, why aren't you a rich and successful business person, instead of some dude sitting behind a computer screen trying to convince people you know exactly how things should be done?  

Okay, I understand now.

Thankfully I get paid more sitting in my armchair than you do pouring gas on shit storms.

That's what happens when you start and run a successful business on your own for nearly ten years.

Just keep in mind, BFL, this isn't a normal business.  In the bitcoin world, especially this forum, there's 2 types of people:

1. paranoid
2. careless and stupid for not being paranoid

People could think the cards aren't coming and you're a made up Russian syndicate government communist scam sting operation if they so much as don't like your grammatical structure :P But blindly trusting ANYONE with btc operations is incredibly stupid regardless of the circumstances.  I could go find that guy on the forums with 6000+ posts, hero status, now marked as as scammer.  Reputation doesn't mean a whole lot to me.  So just put up with the haters and flamers until the units ship, then they can probably simmer down and relax.  Until then, be prepared to be suspected of everything and anything :P

But the legal history and secrecy isn't helping though, lol.

P.S. who the hell deleted my hilarious roll post with the cute little lab puppies?  Fuck it, I'm reposting lol.

Welcome to...BUTTERFLY LABS!

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/wizzerd911/butterfly-labs_zps5027bc4e.jpg

Josh, why do you keep skirting this question?  You know you WILL mine on the main net with the ASICs (if you weren't, you would have denied it by now).  We all know it too, which is why it is being brought up.  No one thinks you are mining on main net now with ASICs, but that's not the question that is presented.  We just want to hear you say it.

Will you be testing the ASIC miners for 24 hours each on main net?

I'm not skirting the question, I simply do not have an answer at this time.  I have *never* had a definitive answer to that, since it's not really high on the priority list of things going on around here.  We're more concerned with actually getting a finished product prepped and shipped at this point. 

....as his sig says he's mining at 480 GH/s lol.  Let me just tell everyone, if I invented a device that mines really fast, fuck y'all, I'm mining with it.  So anything short of that is quite a bit better lol.  I mean have like a room full at least.  What company doesn't use their own product?  Ford, McDonalds, Dyson, everyone!  Even investment bankers invest in their own funds.  If it works, use it.

And once again, if BFL wants to make $XXX amount of money period, then they either make 100% from your purchases of hardware or they go like 90% hardware 10% small mining operation.  Plus, if they're paying big bucks to have a Taiwanese develop custom chips to make BTC mining quicker, cheaper, easier, and better for the environment, not funding it with bitcoin mining almost seems stupid.  So like I said, if they don't buy themselves 1 rig for every rig they sell, I'm fine with most other things than that, lol.

544...

FTFY

No. EMC is ~ 2TH/s, IIRC.

Edit: When I checked earlier, they were reporting 1.9TH/s on their website. His sig has dropped to 5GH/s, and their pool has dropped to 1.5TH/s. These are all estimates, and can quite easily be way off, but it's interesting nonetheless.

I'm curious, what's "interesting" about it, exactly?  My hashrate hops off, the pool drops by the same amount and that's interesting?

I'm guessing that he's implying you're testing ASICs and that's causing the large swings.

Inaba, can you link to the presentation you gave it the Bitcoin conference? Some forum members have described a demonstration of a working SC prototype, but no one here seems to have any information on it.
Similarly, could you describe where you are in your production process? Specifically, have you actually received prototype silicon and have tested it functionally to ensure that a respin isn't needed?

I fully believe you when you say you are not testing ASICs. I just I just never realized you have > 500GH/s. Out of curiosity, why does it come and go?

Alright, thanks for the response.

I agree - I don't really care if BFL mines with them on main net, I just want them to be open and admit it if they are.

It's clear you are proud of it  ;D

I didn't realize that Inaba had 400-500GH/s. This triggers one question: with that much hashing power what kind of work does Inaba do?

I mean... last time I checked this kind of power should net him around $60k/month. Wouldn't it make sense to make mining a full time job? I'm not sure what is the deal between BFL and Inaba in his employee contract, but it better be worth it to Inaba.

I just find it interesting that he passed gigavps without batting an eye. He is pretty much double giga now. I wonder how that happened so fast.........or is it a function of your coloco deals?

Everyone concerned about BFL testing on main-net for their own profit should take a look at the last paragraph of this post:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.msg1209517#msg1209517

To quote what he was referring to:

WTF!  I go to the next page to post about your sig changing to 250-ish GH/s and then I go back to get the number accurately and it's in the 400's again.  You just turned off and back on like 200GH/s worth of equipment.  WTF? lol.  But besides variances, I think everyone who replied buried the lead here...you have 400GH/s worth of equipment mining?!?!  WTF IS IT?! lol.  See below for why I want to know WTF it is :P

Like I've said 100 times, it would be stupid for a company not to use their own products and if I worked there, I'd have a couple rigs going.  Nothing disruptive but come on people, hedge your bets a little with 2 sources of income (chip sales and mining).

But anyway, your current sig (which just dropped to 250 and back up to the 400s yet again while writing this) would be about 1,467 average GPUs so...it's not that, lol.
It would be 528 current generation singles, so it's not that
It would be 17.4 current generations rigs so it's maybe that but that's 21,825 watts so it's actually probably not that unless you're in an industrial zoned area :P
Or it's 11 bitforce singles or a downclocked bitforce mini-rig, neither of which exist yet allegedly.  Btw I heard that BFL doesn't have a working, completed ASIC in their hands yet but they managed to go to some sort of conference and show one off then auction it off...DAFUQ?!  Hmmm...
May I refer you to my post title, lol

P.S. crazyates, what exactly is going on with your sig? lol

Switching back and forth from EMC != turning on and off equipment.

okay, besides "why?" what equipment can do that? :P

btw, screenshot or cuz it did happen! lol

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/wizzerd911/inaba-2_zpsf741c52d.gif

+1

It also creates a viable 51% attack possibility. *womp womp womp*

I'm less concerned with this, frankly.  The 51% attack is limited in damage and will be bloody obvious if it comes from a single source.

They could get their hands on enough mega rigs to do it but why would they steal like $500k-1mil US and then BTC is basically destroyed and they have no more customers? :P I'm concerned about someone else doing it.  I outlined how impossible it would be to get money for the BTC you steal (in another post) so it'd have to be someone just attempting to destroy BTC and that's that.  BFL is taking significant steps to ensure that it doesn't sell too much GH/s to 1 person though.

Just in case you were wondering.  Apologies for the mess.  It's iPhone 5 day. :-)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3476375/pepperboxes.png

It is better to read more threads of the forum and cry less here.
For many months Inaba operates a pool of FPGA Singles in which he has 20% GLBSE shares (or less, I don't know). It was advertised here at the beginning of April.
From that time the pool has grown quite a bit because of people who had given their fresh new equipment to temporary hosting by Inaba (as he operates a data center) to save on shipment when upgrading. An offer of temporary hosting (because of popular request) was here at the beginning of July.
So now a group of minirigs and a bunch of singles belonging to different people works together at Inaba datacenter. Directing this group to different mining pools causes a performance hops. The sig shows only the hashing made at EMC. When all mine at EMC the sig shows 480 GH/s, when only a half - 240, when all mine elsewhere - 0 GH/s (you could see the last value in past weeks).

I just talked to someone who went, and he confirmed that there were NO ASIC's at the conference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viKPHKQJ9Q4

They are just long testing, Wich requires them to do Real hashwork

Four points.  TL;DR.  Credibility and community/customer respect.  

BFL unilaterally decided to mine main-net while all prior community communications stated they would not.

BFL did not openly disclose QC activities on main-net at the point they decided that's what they were going to do.  This goes for both FPGA and ASIC.

BFL has attempted to defend their position of QC with main-net using false technical arguments and convenient omission of well known facts.  "We've been asked by dev's not to use test-net."  read:  we cannot use test-net at all - in any form - due to technical challenges.  False.

BFL has attempted to discredit customers who voice their displeasure on these issues.  Terms used like 'bad customer' 'bfl hater' 'irate/irrational' 'if you don't like please go elsewhere with your business.'


The market has been captured by BFL.  Once significant competitive market pressure exists BFL will have to compete not only on technology, but on customer relationships.

Please stop spreading false information nedbert.  I believe *you* believe what you're writing, but it's demonstrably false to anyone that is capable of searching the forums beyond the one post you quote over and over from a year ago.  Additionally, I never said "we cannot use test-net at all - in any form - due to technical challenges." - that is you making false statements and attempting to attribute them to me.


False.


False.


False.


Also false, but only because it's ludicrous to conflate "discredit" with "We will be happy to refund your money if you want a refund."

If you believe any of your above falsehoods to be true, please back them up with more than just a single post from a year ago by somebody else (not me).  

*EDIT*

I guess that morality flew right out the window (I knew your bitching about morality was all talk and no substance):  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110917.msg1210649#msg1210649

Maybe Inaba's sig just updated after a fast block change?  I know I could go on Deepbit or any other pool and show that I have 2GH/sec or almost 6GH/sec depending on how fast they update their data to show a disproportinately solved series of blocks, thus making it look faster than you really are.  2xx > 4xx is quite a jump but it's possible.

Lol, it is saying 480Ghash/s right now

Inaba wtf do you have half a terahash of mining equipment?? GPU, FPGA?

http://sadpanda.us/images/1214992-HPGF440.png

Read a post seven posts earlier.

I guess if you equate selling something on the open market to deceiving customers I suppose that works.

warped logic is warped.

Probably time for you to take a forum timeout, as this is just going to hose your weekend.  As it stands, you aren't doing your company any favors by posting this stuff while angry.

Who's angry?

THIS IS BITCOINTALK.ORG.  WE'RE ALL ANGRY ALL THE TIME! RAWR! lol.

Anyway, since people keep being lazy about reading, perhaps you should put underneath your sig pic "mining with other people's FPGA products for them pending an upgrade to ASIC" or something.  That would explain that they're not ASICs and it's not your personally owned hardware.

+1

which reminds me of the point I was making earlier about transfer of ownership:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110290.msg1207708#msg1207708

I don't envy for BFL having to establish policies as they go. It's a very dynamic business right now. The whole premine thing is a PR disaster, because customers have the wrong expectations and BFL was not clear about it from the start (as opposed to at least one competitor).

The fact is: With selling the units as "pre-orders" the units technically belong to the customer at all times (?, needs to be confirmed by a lawyer). BFL is offering a quality control before the unit ships. The problem is that the unit creates profit during that time: Who is the rightful owner of this profit? The owner of the hardware (customer) or the person who operates it (BFL)?

@Inaba: You really have to clarify this point, otherwise expect someone to sue BFL about this point.

ADDENDUM: Maybe if BFL pools the profits from the quality control and does a payback to the customers (after substracting e.g. 20% management fee & electricity) they won't be as mad about it (you using the units to generate profits...)

Colocation.  Easily enough stated.


Law around pre-orders is a real pain in the ass in the USA.  It varies by state, can easily cross the line into fraud (dun dun DUNNNN), and is illegal under certain circumstances.

Generally, you don't "own" the product in a pre-order.  You can ask for a refund under the terms of the agreement (i.e., you might be hosed if you pre-ordered a 2014 Ferrari "Enzo+" in Hello Kitty trim and they just finished the paint and stitch work) but you are not automatically entitled to interest or other consideration.

When the product exists, is not configured to order, and you are placing an order for that product, then the FTC is much more specific.  We have to deal with a 30-day rule (you may see this when pre-ordering or ordering items from Amazon that have become delayed) where you are asked if you still want the product.  We are then required to make contact and update the expected shipping date, again giving you the opportunity to cancel your order and receive a refund.

The FTC has decent pages on this now.  In general, the FTC sites are good to peruse from time to time if you engage in any commerce, especially on-line.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule (http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule)

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/credit/cre28.shtm (http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/credit/cre28.shtm)

Wow you guy like to make drama out of nothing.   "BFL to be sued over profiting from QC ?" OMG !

The thing is ; No-matter how many good advices you give them on how to QC their products fairly you'd have no way of enforcing said policy.

• If enough customer pledge on canceling their orders based of this uncertainty and BFL think they would make more money by allowing an independent 3rd party inspector to survey their operations. Then chance are they might do so and as a customer we might even want to finance it.
  (Remember how Inaba was sent to report on our collective behalf ?)
  
  
• Another scenario is that out of 22 employee we could offer a collective bounty for any of them to anonymously release proof of private mining with customer's hardware.  (I herein pledge 10 btc)
  
  
• It's also possible that BFL wouldn't risk bad PR if they foresaw creating next generation products. (the world doesn't end at ~100nm process)
  
  
• Or we might as well show some trust in their good faith.

I showed them my trust by pre-ordering and I expect to be respected in return.  
Unfortunately, I think not spreading FUD is the cheapest thing I can afford to protect my investment.

@OP/Desolator,  I think it's definitely time you edit this FUDdy title. !!!

The company is located in the US. People sue for less. If there are a few $100k on the table someone may jump at the opportunity. I just spelled it out.

This is a friendly reminder to BFL to update the terms and pacify their customer base. Otherwise the PR disaster may develop into a financial one...

They have pics of the units and I don't think they're empty chassis.  If the title wasn't true when I posted it, it is now or will be soon, lol.  I mean come on, they're at least going to run 1!  The original premise probably was inaccurate though, lol, so I altered it.  Btw nobody ever was able to truly explain the giant jump in mining activity during a time period when everyone knows ASICs are coming out so nobody in investing in new mining hardware.  It simply does not make sense and that seemed like the most logical conclusion (that BFL was testing some ASICs).

Where? All I've seen are renders.

It's so buried on giant threads, I should just make it my sig, lol.  For the record, this is from BFL's own Facebook page, lol.  But I assume most of you are as smart as me and don't use Facebook.

Jalapeno
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/wizzerd911/jalapeno_zps24159a66.jpg

And for the record, a fake that some dumbass posted:
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/wizzerd911/fake_zps3bd51a9a.jpg

And to get you 100% caught up, this is a pic of butterfly labs :P (the made up animals, not the company, lol)
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/wizzerd911/butterfly-labs_zps5027bc4e.jpg

I like how they double as hoverboards.

Why does EVERYONE say it's hovering?! rofl.  I threw it into photoshop and enhanced all shadows and gradients in the background and under the object.  It's 2 sources of lighting, at seemingly standard angles for a shot like this in a studio.  The backdrop suggests a somewhat professional material in a somewhat not so professional arrangement.  It swoops up in an arc from the ground so there's no background crease visible but the right side shadowing suggests it was either hastily made or was of insufficient size.  In other words...

http://www.justhungry.com/files/images/studio_in_a_box.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2459/3948479048_db827e4091.jpg

But one that's actually good would have been more like:
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/107/0/d/Studio_Backdrop_good_version_by_Mr_Lobo.png

and had zero shadowing whatsoever in the background other than shadows cast by the object itself.

Who are you calling a dumbass????

Oh, wait.

Ermm... it's a computer rendering, not a real picture.

Well wtf is wrong with their software's light settings then? lol.  Also, I guess 1 dumbass (now that I remember, I think it was reeses aka some trolltard who posted it originally).  For the record, I do believe someone else posted that claiming it was a real pic before I did and since it doesn't look obviously 3d, I assumed it was.  Kinda hard to tell when the item is all 1 color and the background is all 1 color :P

its a good business model...here preorder my product and basically fund ME so that i can use to gain much of the bitcoin market share and profit more than you until I then sell you the product where you wont' be able to profit as much as I just did

It's not LOGICAL to just keep the project and mine and not sell it. First off you needed the funding to build, and people want the product and a good experience to gain reputation (future profit) for the company

Second, other organizations are building simliar products and could do the same thing; if these organizations kept to themself why would us making less and less money stay on bitcoin? It would be just a big war between big money and implode on itself when the average (computer intelligent right now) person drops out of the bitcoin market

I'm not sure I follow that one.  Spending less on electricity and honestly less on hardware too wouldn't make us make less money.  It makes us make more money!  Yeah, it'll even out again most likely but not for a while.

For the record, BFL says they're not using preorder money to fund their research and development or whatever and that it's all investor money.  It is kinda a "sure thing" in the bitcoin world that the product will come on and a working prototype would convince anyone to invest heavily in it.  But, quite a lot of investors heard only negative things about bitcoins and won't touch anything related to it.  I'm not sure I necessarily believe them.  Also, anyone background checking their CEO would back off pretty quickly, lol.

oh if i worked at BFL.. i would happily "working" overtime and nights to get the jobe done ;D ;D

BFL has stated they test against a "testnet in a box" meaning it's not the normal test-net, it's completely isolated and inhouse.

How is BFL mining with their own ASICs the developed any different then some well heeled hobbyist (read: ASIC engineer) rolling their own ASICs and the mass producing them for their own use? BFL is at least nice enough to offer us ASICs too.

Their money is in selling ASICs if they make a few bucks between now and then, who cares. There are enough competitors who wouldn't mind mining on their own ASICS that it seems like a moot point to stress over.

A company's goal is to maximize profits, if mining asics while selling asics achieves this goal, then they should do it. it is not immoral at all.

True.  Still, this is a one dimensional statement. 

Taken in context we are all in competition for the same revenue source - mining subsidy.  It is every participants responsibility to

1)  Understand their business/market.
2)  Make informed decisions.
3)  Protect their interests.


So, we shouldn't be surprised if miners challenge Bitcoin mining hardware vendors in order to understand/criticize vendor's business plan/practices.  Ultimately, "hobby" or "pro" miners should always be vigilant to monitor any potential market competition and take whatever action available to them to ensure their survival. 

It's surprising and sad that the "mining community" lacks sufficient cohesion to form a semi-formal mining association to represent interests and provide leverage in cases where vendors might threaten their existence.

 

It is when you've already sold the product. If BFL had inventory on the shelf and they disclosed that units that hadn't been sold were mining prior to your purchase, that would be one thing. Keeping units that customers have already paid for months in advance in order to mine with them for profit before shipping them out is another thing entirely.

If you bought a new truck from a dealership and it arrived on Wednesday but you can't pick it up until the following week because the salesman wants to haul a couple loads of lumber up to his cabin on the weekend, you'd be pretty pissed off too.

They said they wouldn't do it. I'll believe until proven otherwise.

Mining with them does ruin future revenue. If they want to continue to sell hardware, then they need to be taken seriously and be honest and open.

Where did they say this?

Do some searching you will find it. :P

The search feature sucks.  I'd prefer that someone else who knows where it is simply link to it here.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/52-ASIC-Pre-Shipment-Testing-Policy

Thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to post the link.

It's odd that Josh says they will use test-net-in-a-box to test the units, then says that test-net-in-a-box is unsuitable, and he will develop a proprietary solution.  Either way though, it doesn't sound like they are planning to mine on the main net anymore, judging by the wording of that post.

By that, I mean I'll have to write a mini-pool to use the testnet in a box bitcoind basically.

Fortunately, I have a little bit of experience in that area from somewhere...

I thought it might.  Thanks for the clarification.  ;)

Or you can just pretend to accept all shares from miners at your current pool but actually ignore them then match their GH/s exactly with ASICs and target your own pool with those ASICs :D  So if there's 450GH/s, start pretending to accept their shares instead of actually accepting them then fire up 450GH/s worth of ASICs and they'll never know the difference :P

Can anyone prove that an ASIC miner capable of +25ghps actually exists at this moment in time?

Only if one exists

good news for you !!!

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/IMG_3155.jpg

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/IMG_3122.jpg

you can see here how many users they are on eclipse
https://eclipsemc.com/ (https://eclipsemc.com/)

Active Miners    1497
Current Speed:    1.73 TH/s

of course they are asic miner who mining !!!!

here the production line
http://www.butterflylabs.com/mini-rig-production-line/ (http://www.butterflylabs.com/mini-rig-production-line/)

Thats from june

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87987

yeah, they named it the same exact thing even though it's a different as can be.  Both the relatively slow FPGA products are yet to be released ASICs are called "bitforce" and their rigs look practically identical in all shots and mock ups I've seen.  So good luck telling photos apart :P

but WTF does 1,500MH/s?  That's no ASIC or FPGA rig.  Their rigs do 2,520 MH/s.  Did they upgrade them?

No, that's a MR. That one looks like it has 14 units, but I've heard of some MRs that have upwards of 20. They are FPGAs, and come in 2 speeds, 1.3GH/s and 1.46GH/s, as you can see above.

1500MH/s is what the individual cards in their FPGA Mini Rig do. Each Mini Rig does roughly 25000MH/s. There are several of these cards (1500MH/s apiece) in a Mini Rig, and when mining with cgminer a Mini Rig appears as many individual cards as in the screenshot.

IF they mine on main net wouldn't it be cool if they gave the purchaser the profits  8)

/joke, rainbows and puppies dream world

Hahhahaha.

I don't know who, but I can see that someone is already capable of turning 6 Thash/s on and off.
Probably one of the asics manufacturers doing burnin test

This myth has been busted lol
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=120536.0

What myth would that be?  On another note, you said you had more than one pre-order.  Please give me the pre-order numbers so that I can get you refunded.  As I said in other threads, you have *NEVER* requested a refund.  Not once. 

Inaba it is nothing personal man, Just wish you guys would be honest with your customers. Tell them there is no ASIC yet that works... or one that has ever worked yet.

Dude, if you have proof, then post it.  Just stop filling up these threads with trolling...

I did you missed it, people wanted to attack me for my post so I took it down. You can not pressure me to do nothing. Inaba knows what i'm talking about. Let see if he will admit it.

Ah, too bad I missed it.  Honestly, IMO, I don't see what the big deal is even if they did use the capital to build out their business without a working prototype at first.  I mean, that's pretty much the entire business plan of just about every project on Kickstarter and people don't seem to have a problem with throwing money at every new shiny thing that pops up there even when a lot of them are sure to fail.

If anyone pre-orders an ASIC device, from any company, with money they can't afford to lose, they're stupid in the first place.  Just about everything about BTC is loaded with risk, so if people are willing to pony up and risk their own money, that's their prerogative.

That's a really good point about risk. As much as it has already been said ad nauseum, the bitcoin economy is still the wild west.

You know I agree, but the difference is people on kick starter do not lie about it. At the bottom of the letter I got sent to me from the attorney general one of the last lines Jody Drake GM, of BFL wrote was " I hope it "talking about the statement he wrote" will not be made as part of public records to be used against us." Why would anything truthful and honest be used against you and if it is so what?
I Know 1 Fact
As of Oct 19th 2012 there has been no working ASIC produced by Butterflylabs.
Inaba say that is not a fact.

A)I first read about Asics end of July, read expected performance was based on simulation and studies, decided to buy some through pre-order KNOWING  they had to be produced yet. Who did not know then, or today, wasn't paying attention.
B)Moral or not is subjective. No point there, at least, not for me. Spent 50x as much on a Mercedes pre-order, wasn't interested in their place in the market too.
C)Every info given other than the presentation/delivery of the actual product, is pearls for swine, for a lot here. Smokescreens, what other than the presentation/delivery would not be a smokescreen for you?

Yes, I know what you're talking about.  I know that you have lied to government officials in a signed document.  It'll probably never come back to haunt you, but dang man... risk vs. reward is pretty crazy on your false statements to the AG, and for what?

People attacked you because it's clear you are lying and it's clear that everything you post is essentially crazy talk.  Ya can't argue with crazy!

Inaba, can you answer a question? Does BFL have a working (hashing) prototype ASIC miner?

Yes answer the question Inaba stop with the song and dance.

I'd like to know as well, actually.

If he does not answer by 9pm est I will Repost the letter in a Locked thread to stop the personal attacks. Silence speaks volumes he can call me a liar all he wants the DOJ is not the one sending me letters about felons in my employ and products not delivered.

Here you go https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=120536.msg1297168#msg1297168
I know I am a liar... lmfao

I don't get it. What does that letter show exactly?

Could you also post your complaint letter to give the full picture? As in, I don't see your point.

Read it and answer the question to the posts smart guy's "Are they mining with those ASIC?"

Answer is: no, they are not mining with those asics.

Could you also post your complaint letter to give the full picture?

Read.... every question you have asked has been answered.

No, they've not. So once again: could you also post your complaint letter to give the full picture? Or a link to it if it's already floating around here somewhere?

edit: Is it common practice in the US (and thus legally sound) that correspondence, between in this case BFL and the DA (I assume) is sent through to the initial complainer?

ya I don't get it either.....

It was sent verbally with the whole S.E.C crap read that post it will tell you more about it.

BitcoinINV, You seem to want to say something with this letter.

Why don't you just say it right here (or in the letter thread) instead of beating around the proverbial bush with vague hints, expecting ppl to trawl through random other threads looking for wtfever you're referring to.

I have said it read.....

The worst part all of you fail to see, is I gave BFL a chance to admit they were not even close to where they are supposed to be. You paid to expand a company and are going to get 0% return on it. You let your money in the form of pre-order so BFL could by all this crap and sell you your golden dreams. If you wanted to do that there is a guy on the forum who is doing that and will even pay you interest. This is all I have to say about this, If you want more info ask BFL, they are the ones who should be telling these things, its  shame it takes pressure from the GOV, to get any info out of them. What company does that?

You should post on topic its the rules these post are all about BFL having working ASICS the answer is NO and they never have.
If you want to attack me or ask me questions start a new thread or message me in private or even give me a email.
Have a great day! I know I will getting ready for this Hurricane lol

0% return on it?  Are you taking bets?  Or at the very least, are you willing to take the scammer tag once your "facts" turn out to be lies?

Really they are paying you Interest on the pre-order money you sent them? If you get your product then your just getting what you paid for with no interest from the loan. Explain to me how I am a scammer please lol this has got to be good.

No, why would they send me interest on pre-order money I sent them?  Neither I nor they made any sort of agreement along those lines.  I've never heard of any company giving their customers interest on money sent in from a preorder.  And returns WILL be greater than 0%, unless they never send out a product.

Compulsive liar = scammer in my book.  So, when all the garbage you keep spewing out as facts comes to light as being untrue, you become a scammer.

Ok you think that way lol. Next time I need a loan from the community, I will tell them I am selling Pre-order bitcoins  and I will give them to you when I they are ready. When I collect all the pre-order money I am going to buy a giant amount of mining equipment, but I am not going to tell you that. When I do give you the coin, I will now have free mining equipment paid for by you. Thanks for the capital I needed to buy the equipment SUCKERS! But "shhh" I will not tell you that. Now pay you the coins I have mined from the equipment you bought for me with your pre-order money.


Anyone see that....... 

I have stated YOU WILL get you ASIC, It's just facked the way BFL goes about business. If you think they handle business in a proper manner you sir deserve a scammer tag.

Everything I have stated as a Fact can be backed up.... My opinion is that BFL took users funds and used it as a capital investment.
Or do you really think they are holding on to all those funds?

Then do it or shut up.


Wait, I thought it was fact, not opinion?  Which is it?

Inaba, I guess you didn't see my question yesterday. Does BFL have a working (hashing) prototype ASIC miner?

No, we are waiting on our ASIC chips right now, as I've stated in a number of other places, though it's understandable if you have missed the posts, since they are spread out everywhere.

Womp womp wahahahhahahah lol But I'm a dick cause I called it lol

But wait so this means you have not got the test batch? Lmfao GOD FORBID if there is a problem right?

Still waiting for the proof of the "facts."

Listen, if BFL is going to be testing on the main-net, it's going to be AFTER the initial shipments go out. Otherwise, the rising difficulty is too easily traceable.

I posted the letter from GOV what more facts do you want, the fact that your company asked it not to be "Made Public" makes it even worse.

Inaba You mad bro?

Here's my prediction for BitcoinINV's "proof"

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/29058008.jpg

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=120536.0

Ok how many singles and mini's has BFL sold?
Single price times 33%
Mini Price times 33%
This will equal around what the  from other sales, and this is a VERY VERY nice estimate. Common retail is 15% profit but this is BFL lol
Would that cover all those fancy machines and research? 2000+ units sold mostly singles I am sure maybe 100 mini's?

And we're still waiting on the proof...

You have not heard bitcointalk is "you are guilty till proven innocent"... where is your proof.
I have released more information for you company of value then you have.

Inaba you mad bro? :o

Aw screw it, I see how this is going to play out, so let me just take care of it now:

while ($bitcoinINV['proof'] == "") post("Still waiting on proof...");

Ok, that should cover the rest of your posts in this thread.

Look dude, I preordered knowing FULL WELL that BFL had nothing to show for it at the time.  It's a risk (albeit I think a slight one) that they don't deliver.  I was willing to take that risk.

So, what exactly is your problem with BFL conducting business this way?  They aren't lying about it, and everyone who pre-orders willingly accepts the risks that they don't deliver, and the length of time that could potentially go by before they receive the products they pre-ordered.

Is it any different from, say, a project on kickstarter?  Why?

Also, now you're going from saying "you will get 0% return" to "you will get you ASIC"?  Huh?  If I have my ASIC, and it works, then by definition, I will have a return greater than 0% from the moment I turn that miner on.  You must have your business terminology confused.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=109349.msg1204701#msg1204701
This guy invested 180k and is totally calm.
I have read so much garbage in this thread, because of what?
Because a looser can't miss a lousy 163 dollar for 1 Jalapeno.
No direct answer, only ask you to read this and read that.

I am not wasting my time anymore on this shit.

I am as far along as BFL in my asic production and can provide just as much proof. But I am going to use Virtex 7's as a base instead they are way better then startix III. Ignore the lx150 marks in the new .bng they have been changed.
http://imageshack.us/a/img690/547/designfb.png

If you want the .bng file let me know Ill give it away for free for the lx150 models

from the letter:
"Dear Ms Little,
I am writing in response to your letter of October 5, 2012 concerning Sonny Vleisides,"
etcetera.

The whole complaint was about one thing only, Sonny Vleisides, wasn't it?
You just tried to rake up the old shit that went on here for months, spreading fud, and a company asking to not make this fud public, is hiding something?

It looks to me that you are hiding something, by not giving details about what your complete complaint at the DA (or whatever it's called) in regards to BFL was. You got your whopping order cancelled, jeez, 1 jalapeno is a to scary investment risk, really?
+1

You need more LEDs. They make the hashing go faster. You'll never reach BetterFlyLight-speed if you use less than 14 LEDs.

Lets get back to the thread ignore the rest you guys are right.
BFL is not mining with ASIC's and never have to this point.
They have not got a test batch of ASIC'S So they are more then 1-2 months out from ever producing a working model for the customers. If they have no problems with the test batch.

These are all facts about the thread lets stay on topic here :D

I got 27 LED's thank you they are hidden under my new seceret octolayer PCB built on tooth pick sticks and can reach 10 t/h easy

Metal Gear?

Gold Gear! I forgot I am selling pre-orders for 10T/h units give me the money and I will build you the machine. It worked once it can work again right? No proto-type just a dream and a pocket full of other peoples money.

I like how you use that as an excuse to ignore my questions you cannot answer.  ;)

If buy (a) at price X
You get (a) 5 years down the road it still valued at price X.
In 5 years I used you X to make XXXX and then sell you your X back.
You made no return off the money you LENT to me.
If I loaned you money for (b) and you payed me (b) with interest then you made a return.
If you think BFL did not use some of the money for Capital Investments you are slow.
You gave them money for a product, not to buy machines to make the product or pay someone to invent it.
If thats what they wanted you should have Invested with them.

You're still COMPLETELY missing the point.

I KNOW FULL WELL that this is a PREORDER.  I DO NOT expect to receive interest on the money used for my PREORDER.  If I am ok with this, WHY DO YOU CARE?

I really think he's so dedicated to his rambling troll role that he bought a jalapeño just to give his troll-fu more merit.

Read the other posts it will tell you why I care, Why do you care that I car? Why do you keep responding? Why are you on this forum? what are you motives?

See how those types of questions go....

I am a consumer I have rights I used my rights and the koolaid drinkers are pissed.

what did I tell you about your opinion before?  squeet keep repeating it in your head.

I WANT MORE ATTENTION!!!

So tell me then, when was the last time you preordered an item?  Did the vendor paid you interest on the funds you paid to them?  Or did they cancel your order after you made such an absurd demand?

Look you might not understand how the law is in this manor.
A merchant can use the Funds to purchase Materials to produce the product.
They can not use the funds to create, or buy equipment to make the product.
Like I said that would be called a Investment. I will list my demands like I do for any company.
1) what is the product. Check BFL stated that
2) what does it do? They got that too
3) will we be updated with progress. X on that one
4) will I have my question answered with honest answers. X on that one too.
5) Shipping range. If you miss it tell me why. X they will not do that either.

I do not care about the Die sizes or the actual size of the product. I care about how they treat me and the community as a whole, which is like shit. I have never seen a rep from any company that sells things come on to a forum and chastise customers for asking questions. You all follow this company like they are innocent and their behavior is justified. I think the fear is something will go wrong and they will split with your funds, and yet again the koolaid drinkers will then be pissed. Now what if Avalon comes to market first, BFL has now caused you to lose out on a chance to buy a working model of a product.... how would that make you feel? I am sure they will get you your Asic's but the question is when, and how long are you going to let them draw you out?

I could only expect this from the people that advertise for them.....

You are talking about YOUR demands and what YOU care about.  I don't care about what you care about - I care about what I care about.  So why are you still spouting on about this?  We get it - you don't like BFL, and you won't order from them.  So what?

If Avalon comes to market first?  Well, then I made the wrong bet.  I would blame no one but myself for putting my money into the wrong company.  It is not your responsibility, the government's responsibility, or anyone else's responsibility to "protect" me from what I do with my funds and whom I choose to trust with it.  If I want to put money into a pre-order with a months-long wait, that is my choice.

Then stop reading......

Fair enough, I shall.

So basically for the bitcoin magazine post (here: http://bitcoinmagazine.net/butterfly-labs-releases-more-asic-photos/) you guys soldered some random QFN components to the board to you would have something to show....?

Inaba, please explain.

As someone already noticed, most likely.
The chip near the unsoldered ARM seems to be a DDR RAM chip, or maybe even SRAM,  I would say they will try to mine LTC. But I'll also say it will work like crap if they will.. ;)

No offense, but that doesn't make any sense. A QFN package is a standard, as long as the pin count is the same the packages are [nearly] identical, even with varying functions and manufacturers. The only difference would be markings on the top of the case of the chip (which do seem to be missing).

That would be like me saying because you got an Amazon box in the mail is [it] must be a copy of The Avengers, because that's what came in my identical Amazon box.

The chip beside the ARM one is a BGA. If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably a small FPGA.

I don't want to start argue over this, just note my words if you like or put me on ignore.

Oh I see. I thought you guys were talking about the "ASICs." Interesting guess, I'm curious what they would be doing with an FPGA on board. Seems a little pricey to just be used for controlling the ASICs. I'm guessing the Atmel chip is probably something like an atmega 2560 micro or something they're using for control or comms (especially since it's near the FTDI chip).

IMO, they dont have any working asic at the moment.. still dev in progress, finalizing, but not at the point to have unit to mine with yet !

perhaps they Are mining with them, And the reason your not seeing a mh spike is because they are capping thier own amount of units used over time, Intentionally, so that its harder to see if they use them or not

they certainly are not on the network in any quantity yet

we will know

This is childish! I guess next we are all going to have MAC addresses to these mining units so we can verify these on the system?

haha

Indeed, just what are the chips shown here that are called ASICs if you have no ASICs yet?

what exactly do you mean?

the total hashrate went above 30TH for the first time in history!
i wonder....  8)

There is no proto-type or ever has been, per the letter from the attorney general and Inaba.

So something that had plan to ship by now doesn't even exist in a prototype...


you guys really think you're getting anything from them this year? I think not!

Stop, how dare you question BFL the koolaid drinkers will get you! JK

Joking asking BFL questions is like asking a brick wall the only way to get shit out of them is to use your rights anyone who wants questions I highly suggest you ask http://ago.mo.gov/Consumer-Protection.htm they will be sure you get your answers or try your own attorney generals office.

I dont have one of them Attorney General......


We have no one...... Members of parliament?.. But if I go cry to them that I gave my money to some international company and I am here to complain.. I would get laughed out of the place.

What if, just a blind guess, but what if they are in a respin?

?

I did ask this on bfl forum too with no answer, I was questioning, what if they had a run trough fab but what they got was underperforming or not performing at all and now they were forced to do a second run with extra costs to get them faster?

Those who don't want to 'invest' in BFL via a preorder until they show they have something, see my thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=120925.0

Testing the ASIC miners ... what happened to the idea of creating a new coin... BFLCoin ... which can be redeemable in the BFL store for mugs, T-shirts etc.. the ASICs could then come preloaded with some coins that people would start trading in etc... and it not damage any other networks??

 I read somewhere that BFL weren't going to mine but make money just from selling their hardware, this seems to prove otherwise:

      http://www.weusecoins.com/globe-bitcoin/

I believe you might be mistaken.

This has already been explained away as an operation to heat Jody's chicken coop during the winter.  ;D Seriously, this is a moot issue.

The truly sad part is that this has been proven correct despite the denials, distractions, and outright attacks. Many of the people that paid with BTC last year have now paid multiples of the original purchase price due to this deception and the strength of BTC vs USDs. BFL clearly had little to nothing done when they began taking what was deceptively termed "pre-orders".

And if bitcoin had gone down vs USD, we would have paid merely a fraction. This line of reasoning is not sound. Those who preordered with BTC (including myself) could have mitigated their risk by immediately going out and purchasing BTC to cover the amount at market rate.

But therein lies the rub, for if the rate did decline, the purchaser would have been out on two counts. Some actually did do this, albeit indirectly, via purchasing from Pastor Tom, too, to hedge their bit, but the gods weren't so kind to them.

This is just a quaint distracting issue and doesn't change the fact that had BFL shipped anywhere near when they were supposed to then those people still would have done well even had BTC declined in value because they'd have been hashing before the block reward halving instead of after the halving AND after another vendor shipped. What they did was both unethical and illegal. This poor behavior was then made worse when BFL company officers repeatedly lied about the cause of these delays...always leading investors to believe that BFL could ship anytime now were it not for that darn dark cloud that seems to hover over BFL product launches.

Yes yes they were.

http://ia802308.us.archive.org/32/items/gov.uscourts.mowd.117531/

*hugs and kisses*

2 years later his own words prove he was instrumental in burn in mining with customer rigs, covering up the fact and hiding tapeout dates for the chips... oh the lies, fraud and theft. What a piece of work.

We would like to see the EMC logs at that time... quite probable they were the cause.

So we have the evidence.