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Other => Politics & Society => Topic started by: Beliathon on August 01, 2015, 03:41:30 PM



Title: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Beliathon on August 01, 2015, 03:41:30 PM
Thursday 30 July 2015 - Six revellers attacked by Yishai Schlissel, recently released from prison after serving 10 years for stabbing three people at gay pride parade in 2005

A religious protester armed with a knife has run amok during Jerusalem’s gay pride march, stabbing six people – one woman seriously – in the worst incident of homophobic violence in the city in a decade.

According to eyewitnesses, the attacker – named by a police spokesman as Yishai Schlissel – had hidden himself in a supermarket and waited for the march to arrive.

They described seeing Schlissel, an ultra-Orthodox Jew who had been released from prison three weeks earlier after serving a sentence for stabbing several people at a gay pride parade in 2005, run screaming through the crowd in a central Jerusalem street, stabbing people at random before being overpowered by police.

An Associated Press photographer pictured Schlissel, heavily bearded and dressed in religious clothes, shortly before he began his attack, walking through the crowd with his hand inside his jacket apparently hiding a knife from view. Another image, taken seconds later, showed him running through the crowd pursued closely by police, holding the weapon aloft.

A paramedic named Hanoch Zelinger, who treated the wounded at the scene, said the woman had been seriously injured, with stab wounds to the back, chest and neck.

The march, which attracts thousands of participants, has long been a focus of tension between Israel’s predominantly secular majority and the ultra-Orthodox Jewish minority, who object to homosexuality. While the event takes place annually without incident in the more gay-friendly business hub of Tel Aviv, in Jerusalem, where the religious population is more dominant, violence has erupted in the past.

Zoe Shoshei, aged 18, told the Guardian she was knocked over as the attacker stabbed a man she was talking to in the back. I saw him stab one man who was wearing heels and shorty shorts and the man I was talking to who was wearing ordinary clothes. He knocked me over. I saw he had a very big knife. He stabbed the man next to me in the back so hard it was, like, ‘I hate you!’” Noah Singer, 17, added: “He did it so hard. He was running and stabbing.”

Another eyewitness, Ayala Baker, 20, said: “We were walking and singing. Then I heard a girl screaming really loudly. I turned and saw people running. I saw a guy running and the cops chasing him. I was really scared. There were people hurt. I saw his eyes. They were just filled with hate.”

Images in the Israeli media showed the moment that Schlissel, held down by several police, was arrested.

The Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, condemned the attack “as a most serious incident”. “In the state of Israel, the individual’s freedom of choice is one of basic values. We must ensure that in Israel, every man and woman lives in security in any way they choose. That’s how we acted in the past and how we’ll continue to act. I wish the wounded a speedy recovery,” he said in a statement.

Israel’s president, Reuven Rivlin, also quickly condemned the attack. “We came together today for a festive event, but the joy was shattered when a terrible hate crime occurred here in Jerusalem, the capital of Israel. People celebrating their freedom and expressing their identity were viciously stabbed.

“We must not be deluded: a lack of tolerance will lead us to disaster. We cannot allow such crimes, and we must condemn those who commit and support them. I wish the injured a full and speedy recovery.”

Schlissel, who lives in Modiin Ilit, a settlement in the West Bank, stabbed three participants in the 2005 gay pride march and was recently released from prison after serving 10 years of a 12-year sentence for attempted murder. According to Israeli media, after his release he had distributed handwritten pamphlets calling on “all Jews faithful to God” to risk “beatings and imprisonment” for the sake of preventing the parade.

On Thursday, a Jerusalem police spokesman, Asi Ahroni, said there was a “massive presence” of police securing the parade but “unfortunately the man managed to pull out a knife and attack”.

The parade continued after the wounded were taken to a hospital, with protesters chanting, “End the violence.”

Oded Fried, the head of a leading gay rights group, said the attack would not deter the movement. “Our struggle for equality only intensifies in the face of such events,” he said.

Another attack on Israel’s homosexual community occurred in 2009 when a gunman attacked a centre for young gay people in Tel Aviv, killing two and wounding 15 others. The Jewish state repealed a ban on consensual same-sex sexual acts in 1988.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/30/up-to-six-stabbed-at-gay-pride-march-in-jerusalem


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: LFC_Bitcoin on August 01, 2015, 03:43:28 PM
Sounds pretty horrific but this hasn't got anything to do with bitcoin has it? Should probably be in a different section, sorry.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: cafucafucafu on August 01, 2015, 03:44:40 PM
I bet it's some islamic group doing it.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Falconer on August 01, 2015, 03:46:21 PM
Hi beliathon, nice to see you here. But seems your posting should be in politic & society section like usual, there is nothing about bitcoin in your posting  :) Well this article makes me wondering, why those gays made a parade in holy city like Jerussalem? Sometime they have crossed the line with their action since US have legalized same sex marriage.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Thekool1s on August 01, 2015, 03:49:45 PM
I bet it's some islamic group doing it.

Quote
They described seeing Schlissel, an ultra-Orthodox Jew who had been released from prison three weeks earlier....

This is the part you missed out ;)

BTW Wrong section it doesnot belong in bitcoin discussions should be moved.

Edit: BTW how much amount did I won exactly :D


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: cafucafucafu on August 01, 2015, 03:52:34 PM
I bet it's some islamic group doing it.

Quote
They described seeing Schlissel, an ultra-Orthodox Jew who had been released from prison three weeks earlier....

This is the part you missed out ;)

BTW Wrong section it doesnot belong in bitcoin discussions should be moved.

I think they lied. Since when does this happen in Israel? It's got to be muslims.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Beliathon on August 01, 2015, 03:55:22 PM
Sounds pretty horrific but this hasn't got anything to do with bitcoin has it? Should probably be in a different section, sorry.
Yes it should, I meant to put this in politics & society, just reported it to mods for move request.

I think they lied. Since when does this happen in Israel? It's got to be muslims.
He's an ultra-orthodox jew, there's a video

https://embed.theguardian.com/embed/video/world/video/2015/jul/30/ultra-orthodox-arrested-jerusalem-gay-pride-stabbing-video

Well this article makes me wondering, why those gays made a parade in holy city like Jerussalem?
It's only a Holy city if you're religious.

Israel is today majority secular jews (cultural only). These people, especially the younger generation, are totally fine with homosexuality.

41.5% of the Jewish population are secular jews. They identify as being Jewish because they serve in the Israel Defense Forces (army), they celebrate Jewish holidays (usually not in strict conformity with Jewish Law), and speak Hebrew.
38.5% of the Jewish population in Israel are Masorti/Traditional Jews
20% of the Jewish population identifies as Orthodox (dati) or or ultra-Orthodox

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_Israel

So this one asshole representing a dying 20% Orthodox jews decided he would stab some people because he didn't like the way they were sharing orgasms. Fuck religion, and fuck this dude.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Falconer on August 01, 2015, 04:45:37 PM
Well this article makes me wondering, why those gays made a parade in holy city like Jerussalem?
It's only a Holy city if you're religious.

Israel is today majority secular jews (cultural only). These people, especially the younger generation, are totally fine with homosexuality.

41.5% of the Jewish population are secular jews. They identify as being Jewish because they serve in the Israel Defense Forces (army), they celebrate Jewish holidays (usually not in strict conformity with Jewish Law), and speak Hebrew.
38.5% of the Jewish population in Israel are Masorti/Traditional Jews
20% of the Jewish population identifies as Orthodox (dati) or or ultra-Orthodox

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_Israel

So this one asshole representing a dying 20% Orthodox jews decided he would stab some people because he didn't like the way they were sharing orgasms. Fuck religion, and fuck this dude.
Yeah I'm a religion person, and I categorize Jerussalem as a holy city. I dont care with LGBT rights in whole Israel, but why they did parade in Jerussalem. LGBT activists have made many provocation acts to religion people since US recognized them. I think in short time they will do it again, in Vatican or Middle East country maybe.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Gronthaing on August 01, 2015, 08:54:38 PM
Well this article makes me wondering, why those gays made a parade in holy city like Jerussalem?
It's only a Holy city if you're religious.

Israel is today majority secular jews (cultural only). These people, especially the younger generation, are totally fine with homosexuality.

41.5% of the Jewish population are secular jews. They identify as being Jewish because they serve in the Israel Defense Forces (army), they celebrate Jewish holidays (usually not in strict conformity with Jewish Law), and speak Hebrew.
38.5% of the Jewish population in Israel are Masorti/Traditional Jews
20% of the Jewish population identifies as Orthodox (dati) or or ultra-Orthodox

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_Israel

So this one asshole representing a dying 20% Orthodox jews decided he would stab some people because he didn't like the way they were sharing orgasms. Fuck religion, and fuck this dude.
Yeah I'm a religion person, and I categorize Jerussalem as a holy city. I dont care with LGBT rights in whole Israel, but why they did parade in Jerussalem. LGBT activists have made many provocation acts to religion people since US recognized them. I think in short time they will do it again, in Vatican or Middle East country maybe.

And so it's understandable they were stabbed for having crossed the line? For being provocative and having the parade in the holy city? You're just making the case that religious people can't handle views they don't like and some will react violently when confronted with them.


I bet it's some islamic group doing it.

Quote
They described seeing Schlissel, an ultra-Orthodox Jew who had been released from prison three weeks earlier....

This is the part you missed out ;)

BTW Wrong section it doesnot belong in bitcoin discussions should be moved.

I think they lied. Since when does this happen in Israel? It's got to be muslims.

Don't think you know a lot about religious extremists if you think only muslisms could do this.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: koshgel on August 01, 2015, 09:15:23 PM
Can't believe he got out of prison and basically did the same thing to go back to prison. Takes a special kind of crazy to wait all that time and still be pissed off enough to go on another stabbing spree.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Karpeles on August 02, 2015, 12:26:56 AM
Meanwhile, people that throw rocks at armored vehicles can face up to 20 years in jail.

Looks fair and proportional


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: CEG5952 on August 02, 2015, 01:08:04 AM
I bet it's some islamic group doing it.

I'm not a member of any islamic group nor in the islam religion but blaming them for this kind of event isn't right.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: bryant.coleman on August 02, 2015, 06:34:33 AM
Jerusalem is regarded as a holy city by all the major religious groups in Israel (Jews, Muslims, and Christians). Also, a vast majority of the population in Jerusalem are Conservative or Orthodox (both Jews and Arabs). Among the Jerusalem Jews, some one-fifth are secular or liberal, while one-third are Haredi (ultra-Orthodox).

The point is that, these LGBT people are frequently taking out their pervert marches in Tel Aviv. No one opposes them there. They should have spared Jerusalem from their obscenities. First go to Mecca or Medina, and conduct a LGBT rally there. Then we can think about Jerusalem.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Falconer on August 02, 2015, 01:50:59 PM
Yeah I'm a religion person, and I categorize Jerussalem as a holy city. I dont care with LGBT rights in whole Israel, but why they did parade in Jerussalem. LGBT activists have made many provocation acts to religion people since US recognized them. I think in short time they will do it again, in Vatican or Middle East country maybe.

And so it's understandable they were stabbed for having crossed the line? For being provocative and having the parade in the holy city? You're just making the case that religious people can't handle views they don't like and some will react violently when confronted with them.
Well dont you think there are more other cities around there beside Jerusalem right? Why did they choose this city then? I assume it as a provocation, and imo sometime religion people cant hold their anger about it. Let me explain you, if religion people dont like LGBT doesnt mean we hate them. Actually we are trying to respect them, but why they crossed the line? There are other millions of city for them in this world to do parade!


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: MakingMoneyHoney on August 02, 2015, 02:49:00 PM
Yeah I'm a religion person, and I categorize Jerussalem as a holy city. I dont care with LGBT rights in whole Israel, but why they did parade in Jerussalem. LGBT activists have made many provocation acts to religion people since US recognized them. I think in short time they will do it again, in Vatican or Middle East country maybe.

And so it's understandable they were stabbed for having crossed the line? For being provocative and having the parade in the holy city? You're just making the case that religious people can't handle views they don't like and some will react violently when confronted with them.
Well dont you think there are more other cities around there beside Jerusalem right? Why did they choose this city then? I assume it as a provocation, and imo sometime religion people cant hold their anger about it. Let me explain you, if religion people dont like LGBT doesnt mean we hate them. Actually we are trying to respect them, but why they crossed the line? There are other millions of city for them in this world to do parade!

That's one thing I have noticed over time too. Many of the LGBT, AKA LGBTIQ, acts of "freedom" and pride are done to provoke Christians, to goad them, into being frustrated. It's also hypocritical, because they want to be free from those types of actions, yet continue to do them in Christian specific ways, such as choosing the city of Jerusalem.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Beliathon on August 02, 2015, 02:56:41 PM
Yeah I'm a religion person
Than what the fuck are you doing on the internet? Don't you realize this is the place where religion comes to die? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fhvmg9oiWU)

Go hide in a church while we liberate the minds of your children and grandchildren from your dogmatic superstition.

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130911222028/nickfanon/images/b/b2/Tumblr_m935jbUGkB1qhd1lzo1_400.gif

This is the beginning of the Age of Truth. Your time is over, theist. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQgI4bHpAlA)


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: MakingMoneyHoney on August 02, 2015, 03:19:32 PM
Yeah I'm a religion person
Than what the fuck are you doing on the internet? Don't you realize this is the place where religion comes to die? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fhvmg9oiWU)

Go hide in a church while we liberate the minds of your children and grandchildren from your dogmatic superstition.

Internet is the new church. There are sermons galore available to be watched at any time, night or day.

What was used for evil, will also be used for good.

Genesis 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it all for good. He brought me to this position so I could save the lives of many people.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Falconer on August 02, 2015, 04:06:03 PM
Yeah I'm a religion person
Than what the fuck are you doing on the internet? Don't you realize this is the place where religion comes to die? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fhvmg9oiWU)

Go hide in a church while we liberate the minds of your children and grandchildren from your dogmatic superstition.

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130911222028/nickfanon/images/b/b2/Tumblr_m935jbUGkB1qhd1lzo1_400.gif

This is the beginning of the Age of Truth. Your time is over, theist. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQgI4bHpAlA)
Let me tell you something Beliathon. I know you are a gay, which you are struggling to get your right :-\ No? Then why do you care? You are a bullshit LGBT activist then, which you are addicted by only human rights logic!
You know what, YOU DIDNT CREATE THIS INTERNET, then you dont have any right to forbid other people using it.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: MakingMoneyHoney on August 02, 2015, 04:11:40 PM
Yeah I'm a religion person
Than what the fuck are you doing on the internet? Don't you realize this is the place where religion comes to die? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fhvmg9oiWU)

Go hide in a church while we liberate the minds of your children and grandchildren from your dogmatic superstition.

This is the beginning of the Age of Truth. Your time is over, theist. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQgI4bHpAlA)
Let me tell you something Beliathon. I know you are a gay, which you are struggling to get your right :-\ No? Then why do you care? You are a bullshit LGBT activist then, which you are addicted by only human rights logic!
You know what, YOU DIDNT CREATE THIS INTERNET, then you dont have any right to forbid other people using it.

I've already shown him to be a hypocrite. He acts like he is totally tolerant, and wants everyone to be happy, and yet is totally intolerant of Christians, in particular, theists in general, to the point of calling people who disagree with him theists, before he even knows if they are or not. Just like he blamed Christianity for the boy shooting a transgender, with no indication of the boy's religion, the boy may have even been an atheist.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Falconer on August 02, 2015, 04:21:13 PM
Yeah I'm a religion person
Than what the fuck are you doing on the internet? Don't you realize this is the place where religion comes to die? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fhvmg9oiWU)

Go hide in a church while we liberate the minds of your children and grandchildren from your dogmatic superstition.

This is the beginning of the Age of Truth. Your time is over, theist. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQgI4bHpAlA)
Let me tell you something Beliathon. I know you are a gay, which you are struggling to get your right :-\ No? Then why do you care? You are a bullshit LGBT activist then, which you are addicted by only human rights logic!
You know what, YOU DIDNT CREATE THIS INTERNET, then you dont have any right to forbid other people using it.

I've already shown him to be a hypocrite. He acts like he is totally tolerant, and wants everyone to be happy, and yet is totally intolerant of Christians, in particular, theists in general, to the point of calling people who disagree with him theists, before he even knows if they are or not. Just like he blamed Christianity for the boy shooting a transgender, with no indication of the boy's religion, the boy may have even been an atheist.

Yeah, I think he was a boy that prayed for God to fulfill his wishes, but God didnt do it, and now he act like know all about religion. He will always be an opposite for all religion thing, dont matter what side he is supporting. God bless him.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Gronthaing on August 02, 2015, 07:47:48 PM
@Falconer, MakingMoneyHoney

Maybe it was a provocation. Maybe they were trying to goad religious people and trying to frustrate them. Maybe they had other reasons to choose Jerusalem. But you missed the point. None of those things give anyone the right to use violence against them. Depending on where you live religious people can be so very annoying and get away with a lot of stuff they shouldn't. But I wouldn't support killing or attacking them no matter how annoying they are. There is no justification for this attack.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: MakingMoneyHoney on August 02, 2015, 08:05:29 PM
@Falconer, MakingMoneyHoney

Maybe it was a provocation. Maybe they were trying to goad religious people and trying to frustrate them. Maybe they had other reasons to choose Jerusalem. But you missed the point. None of those things give anyone the right to use violence against them. Depending on where you live religious people can be so very annoying and get away with a lot of stuff they shouldn't. But I wouldn't support killing or attacking them no matter how annoying they are. There is no justification for this attack.

No, you missed the point. I was agreeing that sometimes the LGBT try to frustrate others, and that's hypocritical. I'm against violence and for tolerance. But that doesn't stop others from being hypocritical. That was the point my post was about.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Beliathon on August 02, 2015, 08:40:49 PM
Depending on where you live religious people can be so very annoying and get away with a lot of stuff they shouldn't. But I wouldn't support killing or attacking them no matter how annoying they are. There is no justification for this attack.
Wise words. Violence can never be justified by reason. Only religion/superstition attempts to justify violence.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: MakingMoneyHoney on August 02, 2015, 08:44:42 PM
Depending on where you live religious people can be so very annoying and get away with a lot of stuff they shouldn't. But I wouldn't support killing or attacking them no matter how annoying they are. There is no justification for this attack.
Wise words. Violence can never be justified by reason. Only religion/superstition attempts to justify violence.

And yet you tell people to kill themselves.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: bojan92 on August 02, 2015, 11:03:30 PM
I think that every body has its own rights. No matter are you gay, lesbian, transsexual or heterosexual we are all people. But the gay people should press their luck with pride marches like this.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: roadbits on August 02, 2015, 11:28:18 PM
I'll never understand folks who think being gay is wrong yet stabbing someone to death is okay. If you don't like gay people, just leave them the hell alone and mind your business.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Beliathon on August 03, 2015, 01:45:50 AM
And yet you tell people to kill themselves.
A: Typing some potentially offensive words on an internet forum
B: Stabbing or shooting someone

See if you can spot the difference.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: MakingMoneyHoney on August 03, 2015, 03:29:35 AM
Depending on where you live religious people can be so very annoying and get away with a lot of stuff they shouldn't. But I wouldn't support killing or attacking them no matter how annoying they are. There is no justification for this attack.
Wise words. Violence can never be justified by reason. Only religion/superstition attempts to justify violence.

And yet you tell people to kill themselves.
A: Typing some potentially offensive words on an internet forum
B: Stabbing or shooting someone

See if you can spot the difference.

I'm sorry you didn't get the point, as you erased the quote where I showed you to be a hypocrite. I've added it back in.

You think you typed "some potentially offensive words on an internet forum" when in fact in the past you tried to justify violence.

Only religion/superstition attempts to justify violence.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: TECSHARE on August 03, 2015, 03:30:17 AM
And yet you tell people to kill themselves.
A: Typing some potentially offensive words on an internet forum
B: Stabbing or shooting someone

See if you can spot the difference.

Words kill too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth

I guess words only kill when they support your bias...


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Beliathon on August 03, 2015, 01:27:57 PM
I guess words only kill when they support your bias...
My words are truth, and kill only superstition, while theist lies kill innocent teenagers.

If only my words were a tenth as powerful as the hatred levied at LGBTQ youth from Christians...


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: MakingMoneyHoney on August 03, 2015, 01:34:12 PM
I guess words only kill when they support your bias...
My words are truth, and kill only superstition, while theist lies kill innocent teenagers.

If only my words were a tenth as powerful as the hatred levied at LGBTQ youth from Christians...

You tell people to kill themselves. You are against violence.

You are a hypocrite.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Beliathon on August 03, 2015, 01:40:52 PM
You tell people to kill themselves. You are against violence. You are a hypocrite.
No, ending one's own life is not an act of violence. Suicide is an inalienable natural right of all sentient beings.

I do not intend to sway the beliefs of many of you, nor even budge them - I know this to be an impossibility, for if the religious mind is well-trained at anything, it is circumventing rational argument.

I only intend to sew seeds of doubt, in the hopes that perhaps some of you will nurture them and let them grow.

P.S.
Shira Banki, a 16-year old girl stabbed at the Pride Parade, has succumbed to her injuries and died (http://www.timesofisrael.com/16-year-old-girl-stabbed-at-pride-parade-succumbs-to-wounds/). The parents have decided to donate her organs.

Thanks, religion!


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: MakingMoneyHoney on August 03, 2015, 01:53:00 PM
You tell people to kill themselves. You are against violence. You are a hypocrite.
No, ending one's own life is not an act of violence. Suicide is an inalienable natural right of all sentient beings.

I do not intend to sway the beliefs of many of you, nor even budge them - I know this to be an impossibility, for if the religious mind is well-trained at anything, it is circumventing rational argument.

I only intend to sew seeds of doubt, in the hopes that perhaps some of you will nurture them and let them grow. Here goes.

P.S.
Shira Banki, a 16-year old girl stabbed at the Pride Parade, has succumbed to her injuries and died (http://www.timesofisrael.com/16-year-old-girl-stabbed-at-pride-parade-succumbs-to-wounds/).

Thanks, religion!

Violence:
Quote

1. swift and intense force:
the violence of a storm.

2. rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment

Injurious:

Quote
harmful, hurtful, or detrimental, as in effect

I think a detrimental or hurtful force to oneself is required to make oneself dead.

You are a hypocrite, and you generalize everyone you don't like as believing in God whether they do or do not. How can anyone take anything you say seriously?


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Beliathon on August 03, 2015, 01:54:25 PM
I think a detrimental or hurtful force to oneself is required to make oneself dead.
That's simply not true. One can commit suicide without any pain at all, by drinking or injecting certain combinations of fluids one can die peacefully by falling asleep.

This painless scientific method is how I would hope to die, one day.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: MakingMoneyHoney on August 03, 2015, 01:56:26 PM

Violence:
Quote

1. swift and intense force:
the violence of a storm.

2. rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment

Injurious:

Quote
harmful, hurtful, or detrimental, as in effect

I think a detrimental or hurtful force to oneself is required to make oneself dead.

You are a hypocrite, and you generalize everyone you don't like as believing in God whether they do or do not. How can anyone take anything you say seriously?


That's simply not true. One can commit suicide without any pain at all, by drinking or injecting the right combinations of fluids one can die peacefully by falling asleep.

I'm sorry I have to give you more definitions. The fact that you don't know what these words mean, is pretty sad.

Detrimental

Quote
causing detriment, as loss or injury; damaging; harmful.

To kill oneself you need to do something detrimental, which is harmful to the body, damaging to the body.

For your example of using pills to sleep forever, use Violence defintion number 2: a detrimental treatment.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Beliathon on August 03, 2015, 02:05:19 PM
To kill oneself you need to do something detrimental, which is harmful to the body, damaging to the body.

For your example of using pills to sleep forever, use Violence defintion number 2: a detrimental treatment.
The mind/body separation is a false dichotomy. I am my body. You are your body.

If one's life has consisted of more suffering than pleasure, suicide is NOT detrimental to oneself, but a mercy.

Death is also a mercy when you're absolutely certain your future will consist of more suffering than pleasure, as was the case with Aaron Swartz, the brilliant young computer scientist who hung himself to avoid decades in federal prison. See my signature for links.



Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: MakingMoneyHoney on August 03, 2015, 02:56:05 PM
To kill oneself you need to do something detrimental, which is harmful to the body, damaging to the body.

For your example of using pills to sleep forever, use Violence defintion number 2: a detrimental treatment.
The mind/body separation is a false dichotomy. I am my body. You are your body.

If one's life has consisted of more suffering than pleasure, suicide is NOT detrimental to oneself, but a mercy.

Death is also a mercy when you're absolutely certain your future will consist of more suffering than pleasure, as in the case of Aaron Swartz.

You're still causing harm to the body. Whether or not it's worse than suffering (in the mind), doesn't matter. It's still violence.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Beliathon on August 03, 2015, 03:00:48 PM
You're still causing harm to the body.
Again, there is no "the body", there is only self. This is vital to understanding the reality of self without superstition - without soul.  

It only makes sense to refer to oneself as "the body" if you're a head in a jar looking across the room at your headless body.

You are fetishizing life and demonizing death, this is an immature perspective. Life and death are yin and yang.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4149/1661/1600/Nixon_head.jpg


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: TECSHARE on August 03, 2015, 03:07:20 PM
You're still causing harm to the body.
Again, there is no "the body", there is only self. This is vital to understanding the reality of self without superstition - without soul.  

It only makes sense to refer to oneself as "the body" if you're a head in a jar looking across the room at your headless body.

What you're doing is fetishizing life and demonizing death, this is an infantile perspective. They are two sides of the same coin, yin and yang.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4149/1661/1600/Nixon_head.jpg

I am my body. You are your body.

You can't even wait 3 posts before contradicting yourself again. You just say whatever sounds like it supports your argument then get into a semantic deconstruction whenever your contradictions are pointed out. Its really sad to see your complete lack of argumentative skills and your complete reliance on semantic gymnastics and bullshit.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: bryant.coleman on August 03, 2015, 03:33:13 PM
A 16-year old girl (Shira Banki), who was earlier injured in the attack has died. My question is why is 16-year old kids taking part in gay pride parades? 16-year olds should be in school studying, rather than marching around naked, doing all sort of perversities. The LGBT lobby will be happy. They have achieved their objective, by provoking the ultra-Orthodox guy.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Holliday on August 03, 2015, 03:36:28 PM
Violence can never be justified by reason.

Don't be ridiculous. When dealing with other human beings, the lowest form of communication should set the tone for all further forms of communication. Ignore this at your own peril.

When faced with aggression (initial violence), the only reasonable response is self-defense (which can, and in some cases must, include reactionary violence).

If someone breaks into your home (aggression) and is in the process of raping your wife (aggression), the only reasonable response is to extinguish the threat (self-defense). By ignoring your rights (social construct), the aggressor has no room for complaint when you ignore his. In fact, you are doing society a favor by removing someone who is incapable of respecting the rights of others. What would be unreasonable would be trying to employ higher forms of communication (bargaining for example) in an attempt to resolve this unfortunate situation. Not only would it be quite likely that your entire family ends up dead, but other families may suffer the same fate in the future. In some cases, violence is the only reasonable response to a prior act of violence (aggression).

None of the above has anything to do with this thread (or the religion discussion). I simply saw a ridiculous statement (which is not a surprise considering the source) and felt the need to opine on it. I'm not sure whether he is confusing violence with aggression or is such a pacifist that he is unwilling to use the tools (including violence as a last resort) necessary to protect himself and others.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Falconer on August 03, 2015, 05:00:16 PM
@Falconer, MakingMoneyHoney

Maybe it was a provocation. Maybe they were trying to goad religious people and trying to frustrate them. Maybe they had other reasons to choose Jerusalem. But you missed the point. None of those things give anyone the right to use violence against them. Depending on where you live religious people can be so very annoying and get away with a lot of stuff they shouldn't. But I wouldn't support killing or attacking them no matter how annoying they are. There is no justification for this attack.
I like your wise words, but sometime people have limited patience for themselves. We as religion people respect them, but why they cant do like us. Atleast they should know how to make a parade properly in the appropriate place for them.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: MakingMoneyHoney on August 03, 2015, 05:26:46 PM
You're still causing harm to the body.
Again, there is no "the body", there is only self. This is vital to understanding the reality of self without superstition - without soul.  

It only makes sense to refer to oneself as "the body" if you're a head in a jar looking across the room at your headless body.

You are fetishizing life and demonizing death, this is an immature perspective. Life and death are yin and yang.

You are so sad that a transgender or homosexual may kill themselves, yet you advise people to kill themselves if they are hurting enough that they feel they can't take it anymore. You believe they should kill themselves because they're hurting, that it would be helpful to them.

I've already shown this. You think that if they are hurting this bad they should kill themselves. You hate that I'm writing this, because you don't want them to kill themselves. You got a case of cognitive dissonance. That's because you're a hypocrite.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Beliathon on August 03, 2015, 08:43:37 PM
You got a case of cognitive dissonance.
Wrong, I was raised Christian. Resolving one's own cognitive dissonance is how one goes from being a theist to an atheist. In essence this is the first trick every former-theist learns.

If someone breaks into your home (aggression) and is in the process of raping your wife (aggression), the only reasonable response is to extinguish the threat (self-defense).
"Extinguish the threat" sounds a lot like a sociopath's euphemism for murder. I sure hope I'm wrong, but here you have revealed the waiting violence all capitalists hide in their hearts. So two wrongs make a right (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmsKGhLdZuQ)?

or is such a pacifist that he is unwilling to use the tools (including violence as a last resort) necessary to protect himself and others.
On the contrary (http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/derrick-jensen-pacifism-as-pathology-introduction) my friend. I loathe violence but I wouldn't hesitate to use it to protect myself or my loved ones. But when the revolution comes I'll do everything in my power to prevent the senseless massacre of the elite capitalists I hate so much.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: MakingMoneyHoney on August 03, 2015, 11:55:08 PM
You got a case of cognitive dissonance.
Wrong, I was raised Christian. Resolving one's own cognitive dissonance is how one goes from being a theist to an atheist. In essence this is the first trick every former-theist learns.

Oh, so you do think transgenders and homosexuals who are troubled by teasing too much should kill themselves?

Edit: You completely ignored this question.... guess that proves it. You have some cognitive dissonance, because you don't want them to kill themselves, and you do think they should, and have intellectualized to somehow believe that it's not harmful (violence) to them when they do it.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Holliday on August 04, 2015, 02:33:20 AM
If someone breaks into your home (aggression) and is in the process of raping your wife (aggression), the only reasonable response is to extinguish the threat (self-defense).
"Extinguish the threat" sounds a lot like a sociopath's euphemism for murder. I sure hope I'm wrong, but here you have revealed the waiting violence all capitalists hide in their hearts. So two wrongs make a right (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmsKGhLdZuQ)?

I wouldn't know what a sociopath's euphemism for murder is, but I'm pretty sure that the example I provided is about as far from murder as you can get while still ending a life. I don't really know what private ownership of the means of production has to do with our conversation about violence, and I find it pretty hilarious that you've tried to fit it in here. I don't visit youtube, sorry. Two wrongs do not make a right. There is nothing wrong with self-defense. As I said, as soon as someone has shown that they refuse to acknowledge the rights of others, they have no room for complaint when others ignore their rights. That's only reasonable.

I loathe violence but I wouldn't hesitate to use it to protect myself or my loved ones.

Violence is simply the result of using extreme force. It's kind of concerning that you have such strong feelings about it. Do you loathe how a chainsaw rips apart a tree or how an internal combustion engine produces power because both are extremely violent.

But when the revolution comes I'll do everything in my power to prevent the senseless massacre of the elite capitalists I hate so much.

I'm laughing my ass off at you for bringing capitalism into this conversation a second time. Also, why so much hate? Which elite capitalists were you talking about, by the way. I hope you aren't talking about the US, because I don't think there are any functioning capitalists there (it's almost impossible to actually own anything in the US).


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: ridery99 on August 04, 2015, 01:20:55 PM
Clear false flag attack by the sodomite community


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: TECSHARE on August 04, 2015, 01:41:43 PM
I exploit no one as I have no employees. My survival instinct does not overwhelm my sense of ethical decency.

You are the biggest hypocrite I have ever seen. The simple fact that you own products mean people were exploited for you to have them. Thousands of Chinese probably labored for months in sweatshops within their Communist nation in order for you to have what you have, but Capitalism is bad, Socialism is good, you are above it all and don't exploit anyone right?

Be true to your ideals. Move to a truly socialist nation like Venezuela where people clearly aren't exploited.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Beliathon on August 04, 2015, 01:57:56 PM
The simple fact that you own products mean people were exploited for you to have them.
You're right, I should stop eating and drinking water so I can be totally certain I'm not indirectly exploiting anyone.  ::)
You're a real class act, using my personal disclosure as an avenue for an ad hominem attack.

Quote from: Beliathon
Although I directly exploit no one as I have no employees, I'm well-aware of the indirect exploitation happening constantly on my (and your) behalf.
Part 1 - Conversations with Great Minds - Dr. Richard Wolff - America's taboo subject (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fn6UJ2QcR7I)

Part 2 - Alternatives to Capitalism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DW1ONyrPhQ)

Move to a truly socialist nation like Venezuela where people clearly aren't exploited.
This is you (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fZZqDJXOVg). I'm not going anywhere pal. But capitalism is going to Asia and leaving our sorry american asses behind to rot. I'm sure you'll feel differently about it eventually, as our cities continue tearing themselves apart in poverty and renewed racial tension.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: TECSHARE on August 04, 2015, 02:45:27 PM
The simple fact that you own products mean people were exploited for you to have them.
You're right, I should stop eating and drinking water so I can be totally certain I'm not indirectly exploiting anyone.  ::)

Quote from: Beliathon
Although I directly exploit no one as I have no employees, I'm well-aware of the indirect exploitation happening constantly on my (and your) behalf.

Part 1 - Conversations with Great Minds - Dr. Richard Wolff - America's taboo subject (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fn6UJ2QcR7I)

Part 2 - Alternatives to Capitalism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DW1ONyrPhQ)

Move to a truly socialist nation like Venezuela where people clearly aren't exploited.
This is you (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fZZqDJXOVg). I'm not going anywhere pal. But capitalism is going to Asia and leaving your sorry american ass behind.

There you go again, going right to the most extremist position you can think of and attributing it to your opponent. Where did I say stop eating and drinking? Do you NEED that computer you are jibbering away on right now? Do you need that smartphone you have? Do you own a car? A lot of people had to suffer for you to enjoy the capitalist right of ownership of those items you clearly don't NEED in a survivalist sense (like food and water).

Just because you don't have employees doesn't mean you don't exploit people. In fact I am sure some people in the local area would LOVE a job, but you would rather keep it all for yourself rather than observe the socialist tenets of sharing your property with everyone wouldn't you?

BTW, I suggested you move to Venezuela so you can be with your socialist brethren and live a lifestyle true to your socialist dogmas so you don't have to suffer living along side the dirty exploitative capitalists of America. You feel free to be a hypocrite right where you are though. Asia is turning capitalist, very fast. Could it be because socialism is a failed ideology? Nah... couldn't be...


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Holliday on August 04, 2015, 04:34:05 PM
Capitalism is a system of resource distribution which actively prevents equilibrium. All systems approach equilibrium unless prevented from doing so by a constantly applied external force. In capitalism, that force is systematic hierarchical violence.

Civilization is based on a clearly defined and widely accepted yet often unarticulated hierarchy. Violence done by those higher on the hierarchy to those lower is nearly always invisible, that is, unnoticed. When it is noticed, it is fully rationalized.
Violence done by those lower on the hierarchy to those higher is unthinkable, and when it does occur is regarded with shock, horror, and the fetishization of the victims. Our way of living—industrial civilization—is based on, requires, and would collapse very quickly without persistent and widespread violence.

The property of those higher on the hierarchy is more valuable than the lives of those below. It is acceptable for those above to increase the amount of property they control—in everyday language, to make money—by destroying or taking the lives of those below. This is called production.
If those below damage the property of those above, those above may kill or otherwise destroy the lives of those below. This is called justice.

Within this culture, economics—not community well-being, not morals, not ethics, not justice, not life itself—drives social decisions. Social decisions are determined primarily (and often exclusively) on the basis of whether these decisions will increase the monetary fortunes of the decision-makers and those they serve.
Stated another way -  Social decisions are founded primarily (and often exclusively) on the almost entirely unexamined belief that the decision-makers and those they serve are entitled to magnify their power and/or financial fortunes at the expense of all those beneath them in the hierarchy.

What you've described here is most certainly not capitalism (which I've been trying to explain to you for a long time now). It looks like corporatism (fascism) to me.

Also, since you clearly talk about a form of government in the above (even if you don't directly say it), I'm going to let you in on a little secret. The people get the government they deserve.

When I was younger, I hated a lot of things. It took me a long time to realize that hate is not only a waste of time, there is no reason for it. I think you and I are more like-minded that I care to admit, but I think you let your anger blind you about certain thing and this prevents you from coming to certain realizations.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Beliathon on August 04, 2015, 06:09:45 PM
What you've described here is most certainly not capitalism (which I've been trying to explain to you for a long time now). It looks like corporatism (fascism) to me.
Apparently I need to make explicit the distinction between actually-existing capitalism, which you feel the need to call "corporatism", and the utopian fantasy capitalism which exists only in your imagination.

http://worldofwebb.net/webblog/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Cognitive-Dissonance.jpg


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Holliday on August 04, 2015, 06:29:26 PM
What you've described here is most certainly not capitalism (which I've been trying to explain to you for a long time now). It looks like corporatism (fascism) to me.
Apparently I need to make explicit the distinction between actually-existing capitalism, which you feel the need to call "corporatism", and the utopian fantasy capitalism which exists only in your imagination.

I feel the need to call it corporatism because that's what it is. You are telling me you hate horses and showing me pictures of a cow. How are we supposed to have a discussion if we don't distinguish the things we are talking about? Semantics matter.


Title: Re: Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Post by: Beliathon on August 05, 2015, 01:18:00 PM
This has gotten off-topic, @Holliday if you want to continue the conversation about capitalism's concealed violence, PM me.