Bitcoin Forum

Just to make things clear... if you ever want to see +1000$/BTC.. and even moar!



It appears people seems not to grasp the complexity of the matter: it is mostly highly political. And of course politics have its way to cloud things up.

Mass adoption will not improve bitcoin's value, it is quite the opposite actually, it will likely flood and drown it.

But this mass thing is so not going to happen anyway, even if you "scale it" in advance. Sry but wake up, in its current form, bitcoin is out of the reach of regular sheeple.

People are too much anticipating, buying the fake dreams of them Antonopoulos, Gavin, Hearn et al., saving the planet with free insta-frappucinos.

But it's its scarcity both in cap and transactions that will allow it to surpass any regular investment.

I mean fuck look at the damned financial markets all around the world that are on the edge of a massive collapse!

We should be surfing that wave if it was not for the community tearing one another over technical things it does not even fully understand!

Stop worrying about scaling and all the technical fuss that you will never grasp anyway,

Patches, bug fix, or next gen 2nd/3rd/etc layers solutions, will come in due time and with fair testing.

For now, it is its robustness against human miscalculations, its decentralization, its permission-less-ness and its network's security that matters.

Why always this urge of Quantitative Easing everything?

That is so wrong on so many levels and in total opposition with bitcoin's fundamentals.

I do hope its antifragility would make bitcoin rise up from xt's hashes.

But for now, Gavin et al. had exactly what they wanted, that is dividing the community and induce the fear that it is not such a good investment.

The rules should be set in stone, and not subject to any major modification and by anyone, or that would create a precedent.

For example, just look at what them politicians are doing with the Euro and Greece! They rightfully fear to create that precedent of exiting that stinky zone!

But hopefully, not like the euro, bitcoin is an investment! not cash, not pocket money!

It is a Privilege, as in the privilege of securing your wealth from the banksters and bypass them!

So bitcoin is bound not to be free to transact with. The mining fee market should settle as the blocks gets filled.

That is what it takes for miners that will eventually see their block reward drop to zero to secure the system!

Anyway, nevermind, just HODL ffs!

Otherwise it will just be a pale copy of visa/mastercard/paypal and it will sink, because it simply cant compete.

Thats why its price is stalling now. You cant have both an investment and pocket money.

By definition it is not the same, and never will be: the investment you keep it.. the money you spend it.

So get your shit straight and tell them egomaniac forkers to gtfo of bitcoin! Starting with them two usg moles Gavin and Hearn.

It's time to be greedy and defend our safe-haven against these social attacks!




Hope i was clear, btw this is a self moderated thread, because i'm fed up arguing with the trolls and shills everywhere. It's your fault if bitcoin is loosing ground!

Scarce? 21,000,000 of them will eventually be minted.

By contrast, only 300k 1893-O Morgan Dollars were minted and in decent condition they trade for about the same as 1 BTC.

On pure scarcity, an argument could be made Bitcoin is incredible overvalued. Buying for appreciation relative to dollars is incredibly naive. Trust me you have been lucky so far. Long term - ask anyone who paid $1000 per coin - you'll get buried.

Alt coin horders have already figured this out.

I kinda agree with you on some point but what do you propose as alternative to fiat money for day to day spending? 

Most people say that the market is volatile because it is still small which is true to some extent but i also think what makes it volatile is that it is unclear if bitcoin is a store of value or a currency and as a result people speculate on this.

There's also another question that comes to mind : can something be scarce only without any useful properties and still be a good store of value? take gold for instance, what if gold wasn't useful for anything( ie jellewery,etc) would it still be a good store of value?

I liked your post, your bring some serious points in that text. But I want to ask you something as you said that we need to defend bitcoin.
And how exactly single bitcoin user - not associated in any organisation, not miner, not techie, just nobody - can do to defend bitcoin?

scarcity implies value. as for every good thing in the world, good cars etc, the less generally implies the more expensive (ever seen a dish in gastronomical restaurant? friggin ridiculous XD).

but 21 million coin is not so much, anyway, and we'll have to deal with it.

gold is different as it has been around and globally used for the last 2 milleniums or even more.

remember bitcoin has only been here for the last 5 years so you imho you have to be very clear as to what bring some value to it.

obviously it is not physical, you cant touch it, wear it etc..

but if bitcoin's foundation is rock solid, you could build the next generation of financial tools and vehicules, just the same they tried to do with gold and Bretton Woods..

and we all know the story of how they ended up breaking this deal, because banksters wanted more.. more paper money, more control, more lies and deceit as to the dollar's *real* value.

even gold now is just mostly paper, with its price highly subject to manipulation, because its actually FED's printers n°1 ennemy. if they have most of it worldwide physically it is not for nothing.

but dont let that happen with bitcoin!

Price decline always brings a lot of fear with it.. Just proves once again that we are not in bed with investor type people but with get rich fast people that get out at the first hint of trouble..

They are about as 0.0000000001% useful as bitcoins. These 1893-O Morgan Dollars can't be used for micropayments, online trading, conducting international business, instant worldwide transactions, and is by no means a frictionless, independent, universal form of money.

Scarcity only means something relative to it's usefulness. Which is pretty much zero with 1893-O Morgan Dollars.

There is no literal price for Bitcoin ...any value that people predict is just a prediction dosent matter even if it is based on facts ,because who knows how the market will react in the near future.

Amen brother!
You're absolutely right.

Nothing gets valuable just because it is scarce. The good and scarce thing you can think of is valuable because is has some use and as a bonus it is scarce. Bitcoins value is fueled by some religious belife that it will change the economy and early adopters will get rich. Without that foundation bitcoin has nothing to offer.

Making a rock solid economy based on bitcoin is a fail. Just see the forum cry for sathoshi to come and save us. The belife in bitcoin crumble as soon as the messiah is gone.

I could not agree with you more on the fighting for scalability being fruitless, if this fight devide the community and affectively kill the coin. The scarsity alone should be the driving force behind the principle and not the

mainstream adaption for daily trade.

The only problem with this scenario is the utility factor of the currency gives it more value than the currency alone. You do not want to hodl something with value, if the demand for it will decline... if it cannot be used for

something other than a store of value.

Gold for instance cannot be used as a currency anymore due to it's rarity... demand for it did not decline, but it would have been more rare, if it was used as a currency... We would not have seen such a poor dollar value, if

it was still linked to gold.

You got me thinking right in here. Of course, people would still care about the money after all even if supporting a nice cause. You cannot expect people to just throw away money to "support" something which is highly unstable and can be easily shattered by dramas. They can buy and buy to support bitcoin but that alone wouldn't be enough to at least help bitcoin be stable.

no bitcoin is not real value.
i cannot use any where any time or any merchants bitcoin. All merchants not accept bitcoin so it is not real value

i dont know any currency which is usable with any merchant. so no currency has value?

IMHO bitcoin has much more real value than any other currency:
 - "be your own bank"
 - fast transfers anywhere you like

that kind of freedom and has more value to me than anything else

Bitcoin has value, it's just that there are not enough merchants to cater your needs that's why you deem it as worthless. Also, it is wrong to say that this technology is worthless or whatsoever because billions of dollars are poured into it.

Okay then, we'll go back to the original implementation of Bitcoin that had a 33.5MB blocksize.  Satoshi subjected the network to a pretty major modification to the rules when he introduced the 1MB limit. 

There was poured billions into worthless internet companies in the early days of internet. Had thos companies value?

Ponzi and pyramid schemes are based on people pouring in money. Do they have value?


The idea that bitcoin has a real value at the moment is absurd. Its just a "handfull" group of people who know about it and it is useless for the most part. If you dont search activly for places to use your bitcoins you are likely to never find a merchant who accepts them.

That is just wrong. I stumbled over merchants, who accept Bitcoin many times, even if it just a small percentage of all the merchants in the world.

And we would not be able to fix bugs.
Anybody who says, we should set things in stone, has no idea how anything works. History shows that every culture, who did something like that, had their downfall.

Strange.... I do 90% of my shoping online and has never seen a merchant accepting bitcoins. Might be because i never search for merchants who accept them but search for those who give me the best deals.

Fact is that you are lucky to even hear about bitcoin if you dont search for it. It is almost never in the news and not talked about among people. Only once this year i have seen an news article about bitcoin and it was only about the blockchain and not the currency.

Bitcoin is kept alive by a small number of people who think bitcoin is much larger than it is. At the moment it is just a beta test of the blockchain tech. Nothing else.

And if you want things set in stone, its odd that you'd pick an open source project where anyone can alter the code.  Maybe all the people who see Bitcoin as some private little club for money-worshipping elites should think more carefully about their next investment.



What if not all of us are completely obsessed with the fiat value of our bitcoins?



What if the real "value" isn't how much you can sell it for in fiat, but the potential it holds to change the world for the better by including everyone?



And I'm sure you'd like to keep it that way.



Okay, we get it, you think the sole purpose of all this is an investment to make you rich.  Good for you.  Oddly enough, not everyone agrees.



Translation:  "GTFO my chain, peasant"



If it's permissionless, why are you trying to tell us what to do?  Makes about as much sense as using an open source project when you want things set in stone.  A permissionless system doesn't suit your goal.  Again, choose your next investment more carefully.



Show me in the whitepaper where it says we have to have a 1MB limit for the sole purpose of making you wealthy.



How about you stop putting words in the miners' mouths and let them decide?  I think they're good enough at math to know that more transactions potentially equals more fees and higher revenues.



Clearly we have very different views on what the fundamental purpose of Bitcoin is.  I personally find your views quite repugnant.  But ultimately it doesn't matter what you or I think.  This is a numbers game.  We'll see who has the greater numbers at the end of it all.  I suspect the answer is obvious, though.  If you want Bitcoin to benefit a small minority more than it benefits the majority, the problem with that is that the majority will be against you.

I agree, that they don't always have the best deals, but when I bought The Witcher 3, I was on one of this sites, that compare prices and , as far as I remember, 2 Shops, which accepted Bitcoin, where in the Top 5.
When I did buy things for my raspberry pi, there suddenly was the option to pay with Bitcoin(not mentioned on the main page). When I bought a VPN-connection, I also paid with Bitcoin.
Maybe, you don't see the option to pay with Bitcoin, because you mainly buy from Amazon?

you are correct in implying 99,99% merchants do not have any incentives as to accept bitcoin as it is now.

why? because it is still considered an investment. not money.

regular sheeples are just not ready to use their smartphones to pay for anything. they are highly and rightfully scared that it would be a tool for tracking them even more, tax them and all the horrible things tptb wants to inforce for the future.

anyhow, the question is would you give up bitcoin's potential to overtake any quoted regular investment in terms of pricing, just for merchants to deal with a dollar/euro/yuan like *stable*currency? how could it reach new ath if people just keep spending them?

this is nonsens, i repeat, you can think of bitcoin as either an investment, that you hold for its trustles-ness, its term-deflation-ness, it's safe-haven-ness from all the banksters and their financial pile of shit, or something that you want to transact with on a daily basis.. but then it will never have a great valuation,  and chances are it would not even stabilize, because i'd argue it will just sink as a vulgar internet token. ~altcoin like.

Why?

^ sry not on purpose i wanted to quote..

it will never benefit the majority.

stop buying this socialist bullshit propaganda. it's time to be more pragmatic.

you just dont get it man, you've been lied to all your life probably and cant take the shit out of your eyes.

next thing you are going to do is vote obama, clinton or whatever creepy tyrant you think of as your saver...


ps: sry for the bad words.

this is exactly what is going on, hegel dialectic:



so they create a precedent and pull the control over bitcoin.

bitcoin cannot and should not be under the control of anyone, regardless of our good intention of saving the little babies in africa or whatever.

if you dont see bitcoin as an investment, but rather as just some internet pocket money, there is no point buying and speculating on bitcoin!

and the sheeple/mass never will because visa/paypal/mastercard work just fine and are likely to never disappear.

It would be nice if everyone had an agreement of what bitcoin is supposed to be.... ;)

Is it a safe haven for investers in crisis like gold? Then it must have a use outside of crisis so it keep value when the investers need it.

Is it a payment system like paypal? Then the exchange rate must be stable so it is safe to have your funds there without risk.

Is it a currency? Then it must be simple and safe to use for everyone. No more paperwallets and securing of private keys because idiots cant handle it.

Is it a investment object? Then go ahead and use it as it is because it is perfect for that right now.

To me it is useless as currency and i am not rich enough to do heavy investments so i am left with the paypal killer, but that is just me....

yea well thats more honest for a start. ;)

i know im in it for the money. not saving the world. because nothing can. sry.

OK. Any chance for a reply then?

What gives the investment a value if there are no other usage than investment itself? What do you actually invest in in such case? How would that be different than i.e. beanie babies?

Isn't it like starting a dormant company and hoping its shares will skyrocket?

first there is no proof or data regarding that alleged "huge %" of demand. its a smoke screen.

what should make bitcoin attractive to new "users" (i'd rather refer to them as "investors") is that they would see in it kind of a parallel way (if not the only way!) of securing their wealth, bypassing the banksters' bails-in and their sand castle of degenerated financial vehicles. (or even avoid/reducing taxation for that matter. :-X)

why do you think people around here were all exited because of the greek crisis?

with all respect and compassion for them greek peopel, i dont think because of some average screwed greek could buy some bread pitas with bitcoin.

sadly enough most of them are left with nothing anyway.

hence, the only way bitcoin could reach new ATHs, in my view, is because of relatively "rich" people injecting actual money in it, because they would consider it a privilege, a decentralized-anthropo-resilient-cryptographically-secured-safe-haven..

it is purely mechanical and is so not because of the "regular dude" wanting to buy some pizza or some usb chip on the internet.


edit: plus, just look at how horrible it is to buy your first bitcoin? its so much worst than to enter your credit card numbers! and all the "atms" in the world wont change anything.

Let's try to stay pragmatic here. Two simple questions:

1- How would that be different than beanie babies or investing in shares of dormant company? You basically invest in hope that some other 'investor' will be happy to pay more for your 'investment' and nothing more. What would you need blockchain for then at all? If there's no practical use, why not replacing it with limited edition, hologram protected paper 'certificates of nothing'. Seems much better, as there will be no mining costs etc.

2- If you take away everything and are left with 'investment' use only, that means BTC practically don't exist outside BTC/fiat exchanges (regulated, with KYC/AML). So where's that protection from banks/governments you're talking about? If you kill all the other infrastructure (or give it away to altcoins), what will you do with your bitcoins if exchanges start/are forced to restrict your funds?

hum, you cant seriously compare bitcoin with beanie babies. ???

as i said:  the one and only incentive for serious investors to buy bitcoin, and hence 'speculating' in a healthy manner is because of considering it as a decentralized-anthropo-resilient-cryptographically-secured-safe-haven.. not because it allows coffee tipping et al. (which it will never on a global scale anyway).


but for the more common use, i am confident new layers, new on-top innovations, new companies etc, or even altcoins will emerge to catch up with the new needs as they come, and allow solutions that are more practical for the average user.

and they surely will benefit from bitcoin as well, as it wont be that same debased over printed paper that the FED is feeding the rest of the world.
bitcoin's mass and core capacity has to be rock solid and not subject to any human consideration to prevent all the abuses we are currently witnessing in the financial world.

of course there would always be scams, etc.. but this you just cant fight it.
just look at all the passed drama in bitcoin's relatively young history.

OP is right, many people buying bitcoin because they are investing in a promise: A promise of never increased money supply and decentralized censorship resistance

Most of the people are used to listen to authorities and do not realize that in bitcoin there is no authorities, you are the authority to decide what you use regardless what anyone else think

For example, imagine that Chinese government took over most of the mining farms in china and controlled 70% of network hash power, made their fork and created client bitcoin BJ (BJ stands for BeiJing), with their party leader deciding the future coin generation scheme. What will happen?

No one will use their fork, no merchant will accpet that client, coins on that chain would worth nothing, those hash power working on that chain would just be wasted electricity. This is simply because it broke those 2 most important promise of bitcoin: limited money supply and decentralized censorship resistance. I believe, without these 2 promise, 99% of the user will leave bitcoin

So, this censorship resistance is not achieved through physical hashpower(In this case you can't fight against BJ coin since it has majority of hash power), but through a consensus. Anything that brake this consensus is automatically excluded out of the current bitcoin ecosystem. Of course those hash power could harm the network if they attack, but the damage is limited: Anyone who hold his coin will not be affected by attack

And this has been discussed hundreds of times, even bitcoin can process millions of transactions per second, people would still spend inflative fiat money and save deflative bitcoin, this is a no-brainer: you always first spend something that drops in value long term wise.

There might be a day that fiat money totally disappeared and only bitcoin is used for transaction, but that is highly unlikely because majority of human are getting used to trusting authorities, the existence of authorities makes them feel safe

The smart things for Governments to do would be to buy large numbers of them, so they have "control."  If the US Government bought 20 million of them, then they would be able to dictate the value of the other 1million.  Wouldn't that essentially turn it into fiat?

There is little value in bitcoin, as there is similar and (even better, as in confirmation times, etc) in other altcoins.  BUT, there is value in a brand, and bitcoin is a brand.  so it score points there.  Also a lot of btc people are really greedy and ambitious human beings, so theres that too.

So value = demand and offer, as everything.  buy low sell high.  what is low ?  a period of calm, low prices relative to previous highs...and then wait for the next pump :)

Real value is utility.

Scarcity only matters if there is demand.

More utility leads to more demand, by more users. This idea that just tucking away some private keys, using Bitcoin once a year... and thinking noobs will just continue to pay more for your bags is delusional.

The people that really cared about digital, uncensorable wealth storage are already "in". Those who aren't "in" see a distinct road block to further adoption and use in the 3 TPS artificial limit.

Censorship resistance and decentralization are very important, but it doesn't mean we should just become complacent about the competition. Open source software does not hold an esteemed position on the periodic table. Here's to hoping we buy some time for layer 2 scaling solutions with some modest scaling of the max tx capacity of the network.

price is equal proportion of trade and loss,one cannot get profit if there is no loss. go keep rolling btc

Definitely, there is some social engineering at work: FUD, coordinated hackings, sabotage, opinion manipulation, etc...

Bitcoin is under siege, but not the network itself, but the user's minds that use it. The network security doesnt matter if the user's can be manipulated.

Most bitcoin users are hardcore sheeple too! :D

BTC is basically a virtual currency. It has no definate value, but can be exchanged for online payments and paypal.

same for gold and silver and other things. they too has no value. it is because of supply and demand that makes them valueable. so right now, bitcoin is limited but becuz of no much demand for it, it is still largely unknown to the world. so if btc can be made as another mode of payment commonly throughout, there will be huge demand for it.

what you said is correct but till what time we will be waiting for the shop or traders to accept bitcoin as payment instead of that we can  go and encorage the trader about bitcoin payment and tell them the potential about bitcoin , which will help more for their business. and you wanted to buy through bitcoin and like you their are more users who are ready to buy things through bitcoins. then only they will seek and get details about bitcoin. gold and silver also got their value after the user started asking for gold and silver to the traders. like this when we initiate then they will also initiate and go for bitcoin.