Bitcoin Forum

Hey all. Recent developments around the block size debate have sparked alot of discussion about several topics. I've seen many people arguing that BIP100 gives too much power to the miners. I'm not trying to provoke feelings one way or another, I'm just looking to see if people are willing to put their trust on miners about such decisions.

The whole thing could go horribly wrong if it isn't thought through fully.

Not really. Quite a few of the biggies who've been interviewed have stated they're purely in it for the dollars. They'll go with what'll load them up in the short term. Long term whatever they choose might be fatal.

Not really. I would like to have a BIP with an predictable blocksize increase and without votes.

I don't know that we ultimately have much choice but to trust the miners - or rather, trust the miners to do whatever is in their financial self-interest.

The real question is what kind timescale the mining community has in mind when it looks at the financial basis of mining. If they are eager to jack up fees in the short run they could drive people to altcoins and kill the golden goose. So hopefully they will take the route of foregoing the extra earnings from transactions (since block rewards are still substantial) and try to build up bitcoin adoption with minimal fees.

Now that Bitcoin is getting more popular and the demands increasing, the limitation of how many transactions can fit into a 1MB block threatens to slow everything down. You’d think the solution would be simple: make the blocks bigger. But any changes can make to Bitcoin Core only.

Anybody who trust miners is an idiot.

If you don't trust 51% of the miners then there is no way you can trust Bitcoin.  Trust in a majority of miners is the sole reason for anyone to trust the bitcoin network.

It's Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand" in action. It's not that we trust miners to be charitable and altruistic and to be nice to us out of perfect love. Bitcoin works because Satoshi created a system in which the economic self-interest of the miners acts to make bitcoin transactions and ownership secure for all of us.

So long as the design of bitcoin retains that function, we can trust the miners. The danger is that someone introduces changes to how bitcoin works that breaks this alignment between miner self-interest and the security of bitcoin for everyone. That's why we need to have copious amounts of debate to slowly - not quickly - build a concensus when changes need to be made.

they are purely for the profit, especially chinese, they even stated so, as long as there is profit to be made from something, you can't trust no one

but you can't do shit, because they are the backbone of bitcoin

I don't mind trusting miners so far... I trust they'll mine my transactions and not simply ignore/blacklist them for whatever reason. I trust them this far, as I don't have powerful mining equipment neither do I have ways to control a big percentage of hashpower.

That being said, nobody needs to trust miners... Let's just make blocks scale according to the current network status.

Exactly. We don't need a system that needs to trust someone in order to work. Aren't we called decentralized, trust less system? So we need a change that will not depend upon anybody, but work depending on the rules we set, clear rules, just like until now.

The more I read about BIP100, the more I don't like it. Giving miners such power would be wrong, and if we do it, there will be a betrayal of that trust sometimes in the future. We need a better solution than this.

The miner's goal is to mine bitcoin and sell it for profit. So I agree, they only are there to make profits and messing with the bitcoin protocol would mean 0 profit for them. So I don't think that miners will mess with the bitcoin network at all actually they would be the one that would benefit if everything went smooth for bitcoin.

I won't be happy until every client is a miner and there is no super hero group that have to be relied upon.

Agreed, but I don't think many are looking 10-20 years down the line. They're burning money and hardware now. If there's a move that secures bigger profit now at the expense of future strife then their bottom line is going to be drawn to that.

If you dont trust the miners theres no point in using bitcoin they are required

Most mining operations will focus temporarily profit, so they will focus to make as much and as fast  profit while they can. In 10 to 20 years the mining difficulty will be high and probably most mining operations will just shut down and the biggest and most advances mining operations will take their place.

I'm not sure I trust the miners to make decisions that will benefit the entire bitcoin community instead of just the miners right now.

Exactly, the miners only care about their profits. They don't actually care about bitcoin or the bitcoin community. The only thing they want is to mine bitcoin and sell them for a  profit, nothing else.

Miners caring for profit doesn't mean they'd want bitcoin failing. To say the least, I think they have at least some common interest with the rest. I'm not saying that they should be 100% trusted about taking important decisions.

Exactly, they don't want bitcoin to die because that means most of them would never see a return on their investment of hardware. They also want to make as much of a profit as possible though.

Well theoretically, I tend to think a miner will protect Bitcoin as their interest is in it. But if we think deeper, it would be interested only in Bitcoin price, not in Bitcoin gaining adoption or being more fast or secure. Normally all these things go hand in hand, but perhaps there might be a scenario in which they weren't

yes im trust

You need to make sure that the system is designed in such a way that miners' interests are aligned with the interests of most users'. This means that they should be able to compete with one another to confirm as many transactions as practically possible and they should be adequately rewarded for their efforts. If you try to change the rules to force miners to do more work for less then you might jeopardize this alignment.

Unless the PoW mining changes, the miners are always what secures the network, and more than 50% of hash power could always harm the network, that is a fact, trust them or not

I will trust Bitcoin but not the Miner  :)

If I had to decide between entities, when it comes to trust... I would choose the miners. You know their primary motive to mine, is to make a profit. They will push hard for changes to increase their profits.. so they

are predictable. The developers have many different factors : Ego / Money / Pride / Self interest ....You never know what their real motives are, when they submit changes.

The other services are also profit driven, but they might support changes or be against it for their own hidden agenda... So I will go with the predictable option. Miners will never do something to kill the cow.

Without the cow, there is no milk....  ;) 

Can you blame them?
They have invested a large amount of money in a platform that generates money.
Do you see where I am getting at?

Not really, miners only cares about their profits.

it all depends on the nature of the miners, if she did very well, maybe she can trust

I can just about grasp the outer edges of it.

Short term profit often does not align with long term health. That's why I don't think miners can be trusted to decide its future.

I actually do not believe in miners, usually they offer advantages that make no sense and leads fraud

Nah i don't trust anyone other than myself. On the other hand, miners do exactly what they need to do. They work for profits. Nobody can blame them for that.

The miners should never have much "power". They should never be able to hold the network to ransom. They should be opportunistic scavengers in a very competitive field.

tuff question...

But in my understanding we need to trust miners since they are the ones protecting the network and the one who actively maintain decentalization on the network.

yes it is true but in the end there is no guarentee for them not to escape too.

I actually was not too sure, but there are some miners who I trust and I've been friends with them for a long time

Some of them do believe in Bitcoin.
There's a Vice documentary named "Life Inside a Secret Chinese Bitcoin Mine". The guy they interview sells some of the Bitcoin to pay for electricity/maintenance, but he's holding onto the rest of it because he thinks Bitcoin is going to go to the Moon.

yes of course, I am also one of the miners too  :)

How much do you trust the pool you mine on?

That's probably the more important question at this point. It's not just the centralization of miners, but the potential power of the pool operators of which there are only a handful. In principle miners could switch off to other pools or create new ones if a pool operator went rogue, but it still makes me uncomfortable that we've traded the board of the Federal Reserve for a similarly sized body of mining pool operators. Is that really an improvement?

There is no other way at the moment to trust the miners and the miners have become big corporations that hold a lot of power(and consume it too). The same way we trust our ISP's, without trust we are nowhere. Bitcoin is too big to change the way the miners work, if even possible. As long as the mining operations are stil decentralised there is not much to worry about.

Are there ways to make it possible to mine without the big hardware investments? Corporate thinking in mining corporations is what might kill the blockchain and bitcoin. The basement operated miners at the rise of bitcoin were morre reliable than the big rigs now set up in China. But still, as long as they can only churn and earn, their power is limited. Grinding the operation to a halt will only cost them too..

Yes. To make bitcoin the next big thing. We need to be unite and trust each other.

I trust decentralised miners and not big companies pulling the strings

We do not need to trust in the miners. We should trust in the design that aligns incentives towards good, because of game theory and human nature. This is what allows Bitcoin to function the way it does. Miners can always choose to switch pools and new pools can be created, therefore it is much better then a board at the federal reserve. This level playing field and free market ensures Bitcoins freedom, it has so far at least.

we're kinda forced to trust the miners.they keep the blockchain in place.

Yeah, without them there really is nothing to be had here. You either choose to trust them or choose to move on from BTC all together

Yes I trust them, but not 100%.

Why wouldn't you trust the miners? they are the ones who secure the network and maintain decentralization. There is an incentive to every and each miner to avoid the 51% attack.

Around the time I posted this, there was talk about BIP100 giving too much control to the miners. The argument of some was that while miners benefit and are rewarded from bitcoin by nature, their goal is very short term or instant profit, they don't care about bitcoin succeeding, so although the power they have over bitcoin right now is much, users accept that, but trusting them with the block size limit choice seemed to be too much for some. I myself don't think that trusting miners with the block size limit vote would be an issue and hence why I asked this question.

I don't trust the miners to make decisions that benefit the whole comunity and not just themselves.

If they piss off the community, the coin that they are mining will be worth less and so they will be making less profit.
It is in their interest to keep people (mostly) happy.

Please give examples of what decisions miners might make that would just benefit themselves but be detrimental to the rest of the community? Miners generally have a lot vested in hardware and Bitcoin in general and are keen to see Bitcoin succeed. I certainly trust miners more that a small-time Bitcoin gambler or sig-campaigner who has very little vested in Bitcoin.

if i dont trust the miners my coins wont be here tho

Right now I think it's generally accepted that the power miners have isn't something to be taken away from them as bitcoin has been functioning under those rules for so long. But BIP100 would put the decision on the future of the block size entirely on miners.

If we don't trust them, who else we can trust.

everybody who trust miners is rich,on past time, not nowdays..

There are several big BTC ventures that have no good reason to put their full trust on miners when it comes to the block size debate however.

Do you think that the halving and future halvings will play a big role in bringing "basement mining" back into the limelight?

I don't trust anyone with my coin specially miners, Im sure they'll use it for their own good. Of course who wouldn't but I don't trust them. 

How do you plan to send those coins of yours?

yeah, me too  :(
in fact very difficult to believe in them
they always promise-ha good things, but ultimately deceptive

Cant really trust miners, there a lot of promises that they have given but in so many reasons I wont be able to trust those miners, I'm sure they are just doing their thing but cant trust my coins to somebody else.

There is no pint in trusting miners. Bitcoin network itself decides and chooses the best miner for the block reward. Some cloud mining services was run as a ponzi scheme. But miners are just part of the bitcoin system. In a decentralized environment, we do not need to reply or trust anybody.

To be fair, miners are the ones confirming transactions. They deserve to have a say on what the block size is going to be. But bitcoin users are also contributing in one way or another. If transactions were to happen through the blockchain, users would contribute fees for the miners. A median solution would be nice, maybe trusting miners with every future change of the block size cap isn't ideal for everyone but I don't know if there could be a better way for voting for such matters.

previous point

with the price the way it is...the difficulty likely to skyrocket like 2013 again for btc due to knc data halls at 16nm probably responsible imho for the latest rise in difficulty..bitbury's announcement of 100 million miner data hall

http://www.coindesk.com/bitfury-details-100-million-georgia-data-center/ (http://www.coindesk.com/bitfury-details-100-million-georgia-data-center/)

spondoolies latest data hall announcement and merger and 110 TH SP 50 miner as well as the sale (after their data hall is full) in bulk (likely 35-50k a unit)

http://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/sp50 (http://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/sp50)

so the centralization of all mining (home miners are dead for btc) with all the above ..and if most like knc convert btc to usd to cash directly imho that drives price down
for btc (hey again my view likely wrong)

anyway if you have say 9 major miners that have centralized the network for btc ...low prices ......and low adoption yet..how long before they start to try to 'tweak' the
bitcoin development universe into saying that they as network providers are 'overextended' due to low prices of BTC and we need 'mandatory transaction fees'

imho that is the most obvious first step in centralization of mining ...ie ......flat difficulty rise because no one else can make the asic's at this level (nor investment $$$$) by
this point in time just the above 9 or so big miners so as long as the difficulty is not rising nor price whats a 'cartel' to do? ie hey we need transaction fees at such and such
a rate to feed the 9 network beasts :)

(the exception for the above is if INTEL or AMD decided they wanted to get into this chip making area ..they are huge enough to crush anyone imho ..but likely they won't) :)

just saying tis what i'd squeak about should I be such a mega miner whale corp :)

Personally, I trust them.               

I do not trust the miners  ;) You never know what is behind the miner companies  ;D

I'm not so sure if I really trust the miners.

Yup. Most of them are thinking of quickly making their investment back and then some. They will be one of the first to dump if there is a price crash. I don't blame them since cryptocurrencies is a volatile market.

Not true... I mine it but not just because I'm out to make money but simply because I honestly love and support bitcoin and I know that the network only exists because the miners make it happen.

If you do not trust other miners, you can join a mining company and monitor it to make it do right thing.

I not truly trust them, but I support them.
Because they're one of the important thing on Blockchain

Yes, I trust miners. I don't find any reason for not trusting miners. Minor's main role is to mine bitcoin and sell it for profit and they are there to make profits and messing with the bitcoin protocol would mean 0 profit for them. So I don't think that miners will take a chance with the bitcoin network as said before. So I think we should trust miners as they are the one who generates bitcoins.

maybe hahaha ;D tno

Why not to trust miners? At least we should trust to 51% of them...if no why we should trust Bitcoin network at all? Of course there should be some limitations for them, not give them full control of network...

Miners are good for bitcoin itself; they are the ones who creates new bitcoins in circulation and help process transactions all over the network. What's bad is when miners use their mining power into something fishy, like a 51% attack.

Then make sure miners do not unite against the network. These miners are the back bone of bitcoin network. Without them, there will be no bitcoin.

I trust in Bitcoin and essential part of Bitcoin are Miners. There is no question for me if I trust Miners, but if I trust some arguments they are using. But this the same for rest of community.

Network, you probably mean Blockchain will not work without Miners. There will be no single transaction confirmed. Of course there were situations in the past when one of major Pools come close to the 51%. I would wonder what do you suggest to do against it.  ;)

ofcourse i trust the miners  ;), i mean we are forced to trust them lol without them bitcoin would just fall apart. thank you miners :)

Yes, we are forced to trust them as they got the mining power. Miners control the transaction network. We need to work with miners closely.

Many people here worry on bitcoin miner like comparing them to meaningless government rules or central banks. More over, the halving also may get post pond if the miner unite against the halving. But we need to stick with Satoshi's plan. We need to bleive miners as a part of bitcoin eco system.

I don't think we should look at it from such a fixed point. As bitcoin is "changable", there just may come a point in time when miners could get even replaced by changing pow to pos.
I know it sounds unreal now, but when the reward falls down to dust, and if the price doesn't pick up by then (and transaction fee's with it) there will be no "miner incentive", so the
most logical thing to do would be to change it to pos. I don't really like where mining has gone, ever since asic's came out, it somehow feels wrong that the mining process is taken from
individual users and changed to industrial (corporative) area..

I have no control over the miners so my trust means nothing either way.

also it's not like being a miners is exclusive for only a few, you cn be a miners also, just don't assume that you would rich roi so fast, if you join any legit cloud you're automatically part of the miners club

i'm sure that you would trust them more if you were a miners yourself...

This is the thing. We shouldn't be forced to do anything. Bitcoin was designed to be trustless meaning that Bitcoin system isn't supposed to allow to be cheated.

And this works very well so far. The only problem we had was with the mining pools, when one of the mining pools has reached dangerously closely 50% of the hashrate, but even this was solved by the good miners that switched pool right away.

So yes, I trust the miners but before all I trust the system.