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Title: "Right to an attorney" Post by: grantbdev on October 07, 2012, 10:37:32 PM I was having a casual political conversation yesterday about health care, and on how I don't consider health care a universal right because I don't necessarily believe in a natural right to the labor of others (in this case doctors). Then I was asked, "What about the right to an attorney? Isn't that a right to someone else's labor?" I was effectively stumped by this, especially because it's in the 6th amendment of the United States Constitution. I know this forum has plenty of libertarians/voluntaryists, so I would like to know what you would have said in response to this question.
Title: Re: "Right to an attorney" Post by: FreeMoney on October 07, 2012, 10:52:54 PM The state is willing to pay other people's money to give you one of their men to defend you against them, how sweet (for everyone but you).
Title: Re: "Right to an attorney" Post by: Charlie Prime on October 08, 2012, 01:20:51 PM "What about the right to an attorney? Isn't that a right to someone else's labor?" Short answer, No. The Assistance of Counsel Clause of the Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution provides: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right . . . to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence" . This means, in the strictest sense, only that when the Government prosecutes someone for a crime, the Government will allow that person to employ the assistance of a Lawyer, not that it will be provided by the State. In some countries that is not the case. Courts jerk people off the street, pass sentence, and chunk the person in prison, sometimes without really even telling them what their crime was, much less providing them counsel. In other countries, all attorneys are direct Government employees, and everyone gets one every time, for "free". "Rights" is a hugely complex issue. Some say they don't really exist. I say they do as a concept. I say some "rights", such as Self-Ownership, are axiomatic and a priori. Title: Re: "Right to an attorney" Post by: Atlas on October 08, 2012, 01:25:03 PM If you have the ability to do something or have possession of something, it is your right and not before. Rights are very simple in that sense. When you start making a wishlist of things you don't have and say they are your rights, that's when you start being silly and religious.
Whether nature gives me a right, or whether God, the people's choice, etc., does so, all of that is the same foreign right, a right that I do not give or take to myself. Thus the Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. [...] No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right; if, on the contrary, you only pine for it without laying hands on it, it remains as before, a, ‘well-earned right’ of those who are privileged for enjoyment. It is their right, as by laying hands on it would become your right. Title: Re: "Right to an attorney" Post by: greyhawk on October 08, 2012, 01:34:26 PM If you have the ability to do something or have possession of something, it is your right and not before. Rights are very simple in that sense. When you start making a wishlist of things you don't have and say they are your rights, that's when you start being silly and religious. Whether nature gives me a right, or whether God, the people's choice, etc., does so, all of that is the same foreign right, a right that I do not give or take to myself. Thus the Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. [...] No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right; if, on the contrary, you only pine for it without laying hands on it, it remains as before, a, ‘well-earned right’ of those who are privileged for enjoyment. It is their right, as by laying hands on it would become your right. You are of course aware that this is Stirner dripping sarcasm all over the place as he does in most of that book? Title: Re: "Right to an attorney" Post by: Atlas on October 08, 2012, 01:37:01 PM If you have the ability to do something or have possession of something, it is your right and not before. Rights are very simple in that sense. When you start making a wishlist of things you don't have and say they are your rights, that's when you start being silly and religious. Whether nature gives me a right, or whether God, the people's choice, etc., does so, all of that is the same foreign right, a right that I do not give or take to myself. Thus the Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. [...] No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right; if, on the contrary, you only pine for it without laying hands on it, it remains as before, a, ‘well-earned right’ of those who are privileged for enjoyment. It is their right, as by laying hands on it would become your right. You are of course aware that this is Stirner dripping sarcasm all over the place as he does in most of that book? Title: Re: "Right to an attorney" Post by: greyhawk on October 08, 2012, 01:54:19 PM If you have the ability to do something or have possession of something, it is your right and not before. Rights are very simple in that sense. When you start making a wishlist of things you don't have and say they are your rights, that's when you start being silly and religious. Whether nature gives me a right, or whether God, the people's choice, etc., does so, all of that is the same foreign right, a right that I do not give or take to myself. Thus the Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. [...] No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right; if, on the contrary, you only pine for it without laying hands on it, it remains as before, a, ‘well-earned right’ of those who are privileged for enjoyment. It is their right, as by laying hands on it would become your right. You are of course aware that this is Stirner dripping sarcasm all over the place as he does in most of that book? Stirner is describing a hypothetical Über-"Eigner" completely free of all moral, ethical, cultural and social constraints. Stirner is in effect parodying and criticizing egoism taken to it's absolute extreme. This archetype of course does not exist in real life (except for what you yourself seem to aspire to be) and if it did, well... it would be all kinds of horrible. Title: Re: "Right to an attorney" Post by: Atlas on October 08, 2012, 02:00:58 PM If you have the ability to do something or have possession of something, it is your right and not before. Rights are very simple in that sense. When you start making a wishlist of things you don't have and say they are your rights, that's when you start being silly and religious. Whether nature gives me a right, or whether God, the people's choice, etc., does so, all of that is the same foreign right, a right that I do not give or take to myself. Thus the Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. [...] No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right; if, on the contrary, you only pine for it without laying hands on it, it remains as before, a, ‘well-earned right’ of those who are privileged for enjoyment. It is their right, as by laying hands on it would become your right. You are of course aware that this is Stirner dripping sarcasm all over the place as he does in most of that book? Stirner is describing a hypothetical Über-"Eigner" completely free of all moral, ethical, cultural and social constraints. Stirner is in effect parodying and criticizing egoism taken to it's absolute extreme. This archetype of course does not exist in real life (except for what you yourself seem to aspire to be) and if it did, well... it would be all kinds of horrible. Tell me, have you read The Ego and Its Own completely? I am about to die of laughter right now. Title: Re: "Right to an attorney" Post by: Atlas on October 08, 2012, 02:05:26 PM May I also add that Stirner came before Nietzsche and is literally the original founder of egoism?
Title: Re: "Right to an attorney" Post by: freeAgent on October 08, 2012, 02:25:25 PM I was having a casual political conversation yesterday about health care, and on how I don't consider health care a universal right because I don't necessarily believe in a natural right to the labor of others (in this case doctors). Then I was asked, "What about the right to an attorney? Isn't that a right to someone else's labor?" I was effectively stumped by this, especially because it's in the 6th amendment of the United States Constitution. I know this forum has plenty of libertarians/voluntaryists, so I would like to know what you would have said in response to this question. The amendments to the Constitution enumerate the rights granted by the government. Those rights and natural rights are two different things, though there is a decent amount of overlap. The government has granted a "right" to an attorney because they also claim the authority to compel you to face trial in their courts. There is no natural rights-based right to an attorney; it's just a right granted by the Constitution. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights Title: Re: "Right to an attorney" Post by: Atlas on October 08, 2012, 02:28:02 PM I was having a casual political conversation yesterday about health care, and on how I don't consider health care a universal right because I don't necessarily believe in a natural right to the labor of others (in this case doctors). Then I was asked, "What about the right to an attorney? Isn't that a right to someone else's labor?" I was effectively stumped by this, especially because it's in the 6th amendment of the United States Constitution. I know this forum has plenty of libertarians/voluntaryists, so I would like to know what you would have said in response to this question. The amendments to the Constitution enumerate the rights granted by the government. Those rights and natural rights are two different things, though there is a decent amount of overlap. The government has granted a "right" to an attorney because they also claim the authority to compel you to face trial in their courts. There is no natural rights-based right to an attorney; it's just a right granted by the Constitution. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights The original intention was one of a negative right: The government cannot limit your ability to get an attorney. If anything, it's a limitation on the government. Title: Re: "Right to an attorney" Post by: benjamindees on October 08, 2012, 03:13:41 PM It doesn't say "attorney". It says "counsel," which could be anyone and which is not necessarily compensated.
Title: Re: "Right to an attorney" Post by: Richy_T on October 08, 2012, 05:27:12 PM Indeed, it is predicated on the right to a fair trial which has come to include the understanding that the accused should be able to have someone advocate for them. That the government provide that person is not required but it's probably one of the few things I don't mind them spending money on.
Title: Re: "Right to an attorney" Post by: hashman on October 09, 2012, 01:36:39 PM Note that the govt. pays for prosecution costs as well.
If they didn't use public funds for threatening you then this wouldn't be under discussion.. so the primary argument here should be about who pays for prosecution and defense and public defender issues are secondary. Title: Re: "Right to an attorney" Post by: Richy_T on October 09, 2012, 01:41:51 PM Note that the govt. pays for prosecution costs as well. If they didn't use public funds for threatening you then this wouldn't be under discussion.. so the primary argument here should be about who pays for prosecution and defense and public defender issues are secondary. That's an interesting discussion but on a slightly different level. |