Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin => Group buys => Topic started by: armedmilitia on September 05, 2015, 07:06:27 PM



Title: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 05, 2015, 07:06:27 PM
Thread is out of date.

Most hosting companies give pretty big discounts for bulk buyers, and you can get small bulk discounts from most hardware manufacturers. Why don't we take advantage of that in a simple, transparent way?

Updated game plan as of 2015.09.25:
  • Pool funds in a 4 of 6 multisig address with keys held by trusted members of the community.
  • Negotiate a purchase of hardware.
  • Buy the hardware and pay the hoster up front for a lengthy contract (6 months to a year).
  • Have the hardware shipped directly from the manufacturer to our hoster.
  • Mine at Kano's CKPool, enable reward splitting between addresses. Payouts go directly to participants--there's little risk here.
  • At the end of the term we can sell the hardware or renew the contract.

If we follow this plan step-by-step we only have to trust three entities: The manufacturer, the hoster, and a 4/6 vote of the "committee". After the miners have been deployed, we only have to trust the hoster (and they tend to be the most trustworthy of the three).
Feel free to discuss this below!

UPDATE: I've talked to a hoster that's given me a fee schedule as long as I keep their name a secret until we start the buy. I've dealt with them before, and you will know who they are before this kicks off, if this ever gets off the ground.
50KW @ $58/KW ($0.08/KWh)
100KW @ $55/KW ($0.076/KWh)

I've also been told by a hoster that if we can get a huge amount of hashrate, our rates can get as low as $45/KW--but that's only going to be an option in a few months. It seems like the SP50 is only going to be selling around then anyways, so the best time to buy is when that miner starts selling to the public.

Feel free to discuss this below!


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: zsmith on September 05, 2015, 11:12:36 PM
I suggest you set up hosting yourself and eliminate one less person you need to trust, as the hoster can also be the trusted third party.  Then you need only lease a facility and host yourself.  I suggest hosting in Eastern Washington.  They have the lowest electricity rates in the country and are among the lowest in the world at $.05 per KW/h for industrial rates.  Furthermore, there is no VAT in the US, unlike most of the rest of the world--this saves you 15%-25% right off the top.  Nowhere else will you find the sweet spot with low electric rates and no VAT.  Rents on facilities are reasonable in Eastern Washington on top of this.  I was actually considering setting up a hosting site in a warehouse there but thought it too much of a hassle to maintain miners if they go offline or whatnot.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 06, 2015, 02:48:19 AM
Well, I don't trust my skills in hosting many tens/hundreds of KW of hardware, I'd rather leave that to a good hosting company. After all, we wouldn't want a repeat of the cowboyminers fire in Thailand.

I think going with GND's hosting up in labrador would be best, considering how industrial power in that area is sub $0.025 per KW/h. Their hosting rate is $0.0833 per KW/h (including tax and all other fees), and that rate drops with big contracts. There is a 5% customs duty, though, in Canada.

Personally I've had equipment with 3 different hosting companies--and I've done a fair bit of research, and I think those guys are the best option for a big group-buy.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: sidehack on September 06, 2015, 07:10:44 AM
I'd offer to handle hosting and whatnot, but I could only hold about 25KW and GND has me beat for rate.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: philipma1957 on September 07, 2015, 02:07:59 AM
I'd offer to handle hosting and whatnot, but I could only hold about 25KW and GND has me beat for rate.

right now gnd is best if you are usa or canada.

But if we got 50- 100 s-7's  from people on forum  had a bigger account from GND would they drop price to 7 cents?



Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 07, 2015, 02:30:36 AM
I'd offer to handle hosting and whatnot, but I could only hold about 25KW and GND has me beat for rate.

right now gnd is best if you are usa or canada.

But if we got 50- 100 s-7's  from people on forum  had a bigger account from GND would they drop price to 7 cents?



That's the idea! The more people who are in, the lower our costs.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 08, 2015, 02:35:04 AM
Just heard from a hoster, bump.

UPDATE: I've talked to a hoster that's given me a fee schedule as long as I keep their name a secret until we start the buy. I've dealt with them before, and you will know who they are before this kicks off, if this ever gets off the ground.
50KW @ $58/KW ($0.08/KWh)
100KW @ $55/KW ($0.076/KWh)

As for time frame, I'm thinking we wait and see for new miners to enter market from avalon/SP-TECH, so prices can come down to something reasonable.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: bitterdog on September 08, 2015, 01:12:08 PM
Anyone remember DMZ Co-op?

learn from history


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: sidehack on September 08, 2015, 01:15:05 PM
Wasn't that in bed with minersource? They're not around to screw things up anymore.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: valkir on September 08, 2015, 10:56:46 PM
I could be interested with a group of investor. I will let you know. We are 20-25 person that are looking to invest into hardware together to reduce cost. We could maybe join your group.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 08, 2015, 11:21:18 PM
Great! The more the merrier.

I've heard that the 'mystery' hoster I'm talking to will have more space and lower rates ($50/KW or lower) come Jan 2016, which conveniently should be when miners from other manufacturers are hitting the market. Hopefully that will drive hardware prices down.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: philipma1957 on September 10, 2015, 04:07:41 AM
I would be willing to kick in a bit if kwatt price is decent.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on September 12, 2015, 01:07:47 PM
Just heard from a hoster, bump.

UPDATE: I've talked to a hoster that's given me a fee schedule as long as I keep their name a secret until we start the buy. I've dealt with them before, and you will know who they are before this kicks off, if this ever gets off the ground.
50KW @ $58/KW ($0.08/KWh)
100KW @ $55/KW ($0.076/KWh)

As for time frame, I'm thinking we wait and see for new miners to enter market from avalon/SP-TECH, so prices can come down to something reasonable.


What country is it being located in?  (I don't need specifics as I understand it's under wraps.

.76 is not if you get this in a decent timeframe.   i wish it was .05 that the magic number that would make me want to be investing for sure.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 12, 2015, 04:58:26 PM
What country is it being located in?  (I don't need specifics as I understand it's under wraps.

.76 is not if you get this in a decent timeframe.   i wish it was .05 that the magic number that would make me want to be investing for sure.

The country is Canada, and 0.076 is available right now, provided we have 100KW worth of hardware to give em.

Yep, 0.05 would be very nice! Although at that point I'd start thinking it's too good to be true...


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on September 12, 2015, 11:06:55 PM
What country is it being located in?  (I don't need specifics as I understand it's under wraps.

.76 is not if you get this in a decent timeframe.   i wish it was .05 that the magic number that would make me want to be investing for sure.

The country is Canada, and 0.076 is available right now, provided we have 100KW worth of hardware to give em.

Yep, 0.05 would be very nice! Although at that point I'd start thinking it's too good to be true...

It is out there... just I'm not sure it can be done without a huge investment.   So hobby miners kinda have to settle with higher then "the big guys"


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: MonetaCoin on September 16, 2015, 01:47:45 AM
Most hosting companies give pretty big discounts for bulk buyers, and you can get small bulk discounts from most hardware manufacturers. Why don't we take advantage of that in a simple, transparent way?

Here's what I'm thinking:
  • Pool funds in a btc address controlled by a trustworthy person.
  • Negotiate a purchase of hardware.
  • Buy the hardware and pay the hoster up front for a lengthy contract (6 months to a year).
  • Have the hardware shipped directly from the manufacturer to our hoster.
  • Mine at eligius (transparent and public stats) and have the payout go directly to a btc address controlled by our trustworthy person.
  • Divide the payouts proportionately every week/month.
  • At the end of the term we can sell the hardware or renew the contract.

If we follow this plan step-by-step we only have to trust three people: The manufacturer, the hoster, and the trusted third party.
Feel free to discuss this below!

UPDATE: I've talked to a hoster that's given me a fee schedule as long as I keep their name a secret until we start the buy. I've dealt with them before, and you will know who they are before this kicks off, if this ever gets off the ground.
50KW @ $58/KW ($0.08/KWh)
100KW @ $55/KW ($0.076/KWh)

As for time frame, I'm thinking we wait and see for new miners to enter market from avalon/SP-TECH, so prices can come down to something reasonable.

If any of my stock is something you are looking for we could work with you. www.cryptolayaway.com we are located in the USA.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 23, 2015, 02:49:29 PM
Hmm, SP50 just came out. I just sent them an email, lets see if we can get this ball rolling!


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: philipma1957 on September 23, 2015, 03:13:14 PM
Hmm, SP50 just came out. I just sent them an email, lets see if we can get this ball rolling!

if we can get 3 that is 50kwatts

6 are 100kwatts.

if the hoster is GND  I would trust him.

price and time are the question.

the gear needs to be in place fast.

330th = 50kwatt  at 8 cents = 96 a day for power.

660th =100kwatt at 7.6 cents = 182.40 a day for power


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Dr Charles on September 23, 2015, 06:22:51 PM
Ill be following this thread. Would definitely be considering partaking in this ventue if we can get our hands on some SP50's


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: carlosmnk on September 23, 2015, 06:34:31 PM
Ill be following this thread. Would definitely be considering partaking in this ventue if we can get our hands on some SP50's

Me too


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: philipma1957 on September 23, 2015, 06:46:00 PM
Hmm, SP50 just came out. I just sent them an email, lets see if we can get this ball rolling!

if we can get 3 that is 50kwatts

6 are 100kwatts.

if the hoster is GND  I would trust him.

price and time are the question.

the gear needs to be in place fast.

330th = 50kwatt  at 8 cents = 96 a day for power.

660th =100kwatt at 7.6 cents = 182.40 a day for power

GND is great northern data  I have had a talks via pm with him.  He has been doing an honest hosting job as far as I know. (ie never read any complaints about them)


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: sloopy on September 23, 2015, 10:49:39 PM
I may also be interested.
Please put me on the list and it is the SP50 which has brought me to this conclusion.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: toptek on September 24, 2015, 01:44:50 AM
Most hosting companies give pretty big discounts for bulk buyers, and you can get small bulk discounts from most hardware manufacturers. Why don't we take advantage of that in a simple, transparent way?

Here's what I'm thinking:
  • Pool funds in a btc address controlled by a trustworthy person.
  • Negotiate a purchase of hardware.
  • Buy the hardware and pay the hoster up front for a lengthy contract (6 months to a year).
  • Have the hardware shipped directly from the manufacturer to our hoster.
  • Mine at eligius (transparent and public stats) and have the payout go directly to a btc address controlled by our trustworthy person.
  • Divide the payouts proportionately every week/month.
  • At the end of the term we can sell the hardware or renew the contract.

If we follow this plan step-by-step we only have to trust three people: The manufacturer, the hoster, and the trusted third party.
Feel free to discuss this below!

UPDATE: I've talked to a hoster that's given me a fee schedule as long as I keep their name a secret until we start the buy. I've dealt with them before, and you will know who they are before this kicks off, if this ever gets off the ground.
50KW @ $58/KW ($0.08/KWh)
100KW @ $55/KW ($0.076/KWh)

As for time frame, I'm thinking we wait and see for new miners to enter market from avalon/SP-TECH, so prices can come down to something reasonable.


The one we have to trust the most is the one handling the btc and payout. The hoster and manufacturers in most cases are very trustworthy if you go with ones we know care about what they do and not some new startup out of no were . same for a the hoster .


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: mavericklm on September 24, 2015, 10:57:18 AM
First of all, we need to know price of the sp50...


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Dr Charles on September 24, 2015, 11:49:37 AM
First of all, we need to know price of the sp50...

Indeed... Would be one of the most important steps haha


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 24, 2015, 01:17:40 PM
I have a question for those who are interested, and it's probably the most important one!

Who should be responsible for holding funds and distributing payouts?

I'm a little paranoid. I certainly wouldn't trust myself with this much cash if I were you, and I don't think my security practices are good enough to be confident in storing that many coins. I use cold storage, but I would be very nervous as a single point of failure. No way can I cover it out of pocket if it gets hacked, and then you and me and a few dozen other people are royally screwed. Plus, I'll get doxxed by some (rightfully) pissed off people!

We need someone who:
  • Has experience storing large amounts of BTC, preferably someone who has run GBs/escrow services in the past.
  • Has a huge amount of rep--and I mean a lot, and an established presence.
  • We know the identity of (so we can have some form of recourse if shit hits the fan)

If you have any other requirements for this person, feel free to suggest them below!

We can do this in an even cooler way, too. We can create a multisig wallet under the control of multiple trusted members, deposit funds to that, and then do a big multisig transaction to the hoster & manufacturer (I can cc you guys in all my email communication). We should be able to get our hoster & manufacturer to sign their messages with PGP so you guys can verify I'm not talking to a sockpuppet!

Then we mine to a single address controlled by a trusted member. That way, there is only time a single person can run with the funds, and they can only take the current balance. We can have a failsafe to switch the mining payout address (set up beforehand) if this ends up happening. To those who have experience using multisig, do you think this plan makes sense?


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Dr Charles on September 24, 2015, 01:28:11 PM
I think a multi-sig wallet makes absolute sense but still finding people to trust with a presumably $50-$100k or more, lump sum of coins/cash will be difficult given the history of this industry.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 24, 2015, 01:38:55 PM
I think a multi-sig wallet makes absolute sense but still finding people to trust with a presumably $50-$100k or more, lump sum of coins/cash will be difficult given the history of this industry.

I agree with that completely.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: carlosmnk on September 24, 2015, 01:39:48 PM
I have a question for those who are interested, and it's probably the most important one!

Who should be responsible for holding funds and distributing payouts?

I'm a little paranoid. I certainly wouldn't trust myself with this much cash if I were you, and I don't think my security practices are good enough to be confident in storing that many coins. I use cold storage, but I would be very nervous as a single point of failure. No way can I cover it out of pocket if it gets hacked, and then you and me and a few dozen other people are royally screwed. Plus, I'll get doxxed by some (rightfully) pissed off people!

We need someone who:
  • Has experience storing large amounts of BTC, preferably someone who has run GBs/escrow services in the past.
  • Has a huge amount of rep--and I mean a lot, and an established presence.
  • We know the identity of (so we can have some form of recourse if shit hits the fan)

If you have any other requirements for this person, feel free to suggest them below!

We can do this in an even cooler way, too. We can create a multisig wallet under the control of multiple trusted members, deposit funds to that, and then do a big multisig transaction to the hoster & manufacturer (I can cc you guys in all my email communication). We should be able to get our hoster & manufacturer to sign their messages with PGP so you guys can verify I'm not talking to a sockpuppet!

Then we mine to a single address controlled by a trusted member. That way, there is only time a single person can run with the funds, and they can only take the current balance. We can have a failsafe to switch the mining payout address (set up beforehand) if this ends up happening. To those who have experience using multisig, do you think this plan makes sense?

Look at this  ;)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=789369.msg12509531#msg12509531

Another option is an escrow...


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 24, 2015, 01:45:02 PM
Look at this  ;)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=789369.msg12509531#msg12509531

That's great! Ckpool sounds like a great idea to distribute payouts, they allow % distributions to multiple addresses for big miners. Bam! There goes our distribution problems.

Another option is an escrow...

Yes, the subject of my above post is about using multisig/regular escrow (to handle initial fund collection) and finding the right person/people to do it. We can't just trust some random escrow provider!


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: valkir on September 24, 2015, 08:29:48 PM
I would for sure trust philipma with no problem. Depend of if he want to manage this.  ;D


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: torepia on September 25, 2015, 12:49:24 AM
Ill be following this thread. Would definitely be considering partaking in this ventue if we can get our hands on some SP50's

Me too

Same!


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 25, 2015, 01:09:19 PM
I just got a very personal (definitely not a form letter) response from Spondoolies.  ::)

Quote
Thank you for your email and your interest in the SP50. We are excited and proud to unveil our next generation machine as a breakthrough product for industrial mining.

With its extremely low power consumption and modular design the SP50 has been specifically designed for maximum power efficiency and ease of management.

Initially the SP50 will be offered in limited quantities only to a select group of customers. Due to the limited anticipated supply and overwhelming interest we initially intend to discuss purchases of the SP50 with certain significant shareholders, although this is not a requirement for purchase. If you have funding and are interested in a bulk purchase please reply to this email and let us know. If you are a BTCS shareholder please let us know that as well. Preference will be given to existing bulk customers and well-funded projects.

As we scale up production we hope to offer the SP50 to a wider market. At that time we will publish pricing and shipping terms as well as warranty information.

We thank you for your interest in the SP50 and look forward to working with you.

Since we aren't funded yet and ready to pull the trigger, it looks like we'll have to wait for wider availability. This might be a good thing, buying a little later would allow us to see whether or not the SP50 is a steaming turd (No offense Spondoolies, but you never know!)

Also:
I did some reading on stackoverflow on how to actually use multisig, it's a little nitty gritty (done on the command line) but well within my capabilities. I also may end up using armory as I've heard there is a good multisig implementation there. Of course, we'll do some test transactions before we start piling money into the address! The best part is that you can generate multisig addresses without needing to trust the person doing the generation--that means I can set it up without actually having full control over it! I think a 4/6 setup would work best, it minimizes risk of keys being lost (and freezing funds forever!) while also being fairly secure from members conspiring to run with the funds.

Phillip would be a great candidate to hold one of those keys. Personally, I think valkir would be good too. Maybe even me as well.  ;)


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: philipma1957 on September 25, 2015, 01:53:55 PM
I would be willing to hold a key.

If we get 3 to 6 of these.

It could be interesting.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: GreatNorthData on September 25, 2015, 06:19:51 PM
Just throwing it out there, size is efficiency, so if a collective run by Armedmilitia approached us with 1MW, and at least four months notice, we could get something online for $45/kW with taxes included.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 25, 2015, 06:55:40 PM
Well, that's quite the stretch goal!

61 SP50s (6.7PH/1MW) calls for quite a bit of cash. Some napkin math and price guesses probably puts the total upfront payment over 2M USD. I don't think our pockets go that deep, but who knows.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on September 25, 2015, 07:04:23 PM
If there is a miner Co-OP just throwing this in there I am interested.   I would need to know specifics.

But I would love even if we set up a Co-Op where we could bring gear to a very low cost electricity area.   And split the cost's to make it affordable to do.  I will keep a closer eye on this thread.  I would like it to be in US if at all possible as I would probley want to visit it and drive my gear there.

Also I do not have any problem with philipma1957 being key holder.   He has my trust.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: sidehack on September 25, 2015, 07:40:15 PM
I'll be legitimately surprised if the SP50 comes in under $50K each. Buying 22x S7 to get the same hashrate would cost you over $40K, plus PSUs, plus the premium of having about 40% lower power consumption and, if it's like everything else SP has ever released, undervoltability (but this is very questionable given the released specs). $50-60k seems about right, which puts the 1MW cost around $3M.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: valkir on September 25, 2015, 07:42:54 PM
I had a similar email from spondoolies. So Im looking to buy some BTCS stocks  ;D

Only 0,14$ We could than write to them that we are shareholder.

We could also buy some share together.

Let me know what you think about that.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Dr Charles on September 25, 2015, 07:57:04 PM
With an investment that, large 10+ Sp50's, I think it would be worth while to form an LLC or S-corp... for protections on both ends before and after the purchase but thats just my 2 cents :)

And personally, I wouldnt touch the BTCS stock, at least not yet. BTCS has been operating at a loss since day one. Although, year over year they have managed to diminish the total deficit/year operating loss... it is still far from a profitable holding.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 25, 2015, 08:05:50 PM
I'll be legitimately surprised if the SP50 comes in under $50K each. Buying 22x S7 to get the same hashrate would cost you over $40K, plus PSUs, plus the premium of having about 40% lower power consumption and, if it's like everything else SP has ever released, undervoltability (but this is very questionable given the released specs). $50-60k seems about right, which puts the 1MW cost around $3M.

Maybe, but from my chat with SP it looks like we'll only be buying them in a couple of months, there's no way we're a high priority customer. The difficulty will be higher, Avalon's new miners might be popping up, and bitmain will probably have lowered their prices by then, so the SP50 price could come down significantly.

I had a similar email from spondoolies. So Im looking to buy some BTCS stocks  ;D

Only 0,14$ We could than write to them that we are shareholder.

From the email I got:
Quote
...initially intend to discuss purchases of the SP50 with certain significant shareholders...
I don't think $0.14 worth of holdings makes us a "significant" shareholder, haha!


With an investment that, large 10+ Sp50's, I think it would be worth while to form an LLC or S-corp... for protections on both ends before and after the purchase but thats just my 2 cents :)
Yes, I agree there should be a legal framework at that point. I know only the basics about that stuff, I'll have to do some research if it gets to that.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: valkir on September 25, 2015, 08:20:47 PM
What I mean with 0.14$ is that the stock is 0.14$. We could bough way more than 1.  :P


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Dr Charles on September 25, 2015, 08:48:08 PM
Quote
With an investment that, large 10+ Sp50's, I think it would be worth while to form an LLC or S-corp... for protections on both ends before and after the purchase but thats just my 2 cents :)
Yes, I agree there should be a legal framework at that point. I know only the basics about that stuff, I'll have to do some research if it gets to that.

Well I would be happy to help if it gets to that point. Got a business degree and experience in multi-branch operations management. :)


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 25, 2015, 09:44:15 PM
What I mean with 0.14$ is that the stock is 0.14$. We could bough way more than 1.  :P

Personally I find it a bit risky to invest a large sum of cash in a company for the sole purpose of trying to jump ahead in line. I'm not sure how successful it would be either. If you think it's a good buy though, by all means go ahead.

Well I would be happy to help if it gets to that point. Got a business degree and experience in multi-branch operations management. :)

It would be great to have that expertise on board, thanks! I will be contacting you if/when this gets bigger.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Searing on September 26, 2015, 05:43:00 AM
I just got a very personal (definitely not a form letter) response from Spondoolies.  ::)

Quote
Thank you for your email and your interest in the SP50. We are excited and proud to unveil our next generation machine as a breakthrough product for industrial mining.

With its extremely low power consumption and modular design the SP50 has been specifically designed for maximum power efficiency and ease of management.

Initially the SP50 will be offered in limited quantities only to a select group of customers. Due to the limited anticipated supply and overwhelming interest we initially intend to discuss purchases of the SP50 with certain significant shareholders, although this is not a requirement for purchase. If you have funding and are interested in a bulk purchase please reply to this email and let us know. If you are a BTCS shareholder please let us know that as well. Preference will be given to existing bulk customers and well-funded projects.

As we scale up production we hope to offer the SP50 to a wider market. At that time we will publish pricing and shipping terms as well as warranty information.

We thank you for your interest in the SP50 and look forward to working with you.

Since we aren't funded yet and ready to pull the trigger, it looks like we'll have to wait for wider availability. This might be a good thing, buying a little later would allow us to see whether or not the SP50 is a steaming turd (No offense Spondoolies, but you never know!)

Also:
I did some reading on stackoverflow on how to actually use multisig, it's a little nitty gritty (done on the command line) but well within my capabilities. I also may end up using armory as I've heard there is a good multisig implementation there. Of course, we'll do some test transactions before we start piling money into the address! The best part is that you can generate multisig addresses without needing to trust the person doing the generation--that means I can set it up without actually having full control over it! I think a 4/6 setup would work best, it minimizes risk of keys being lost (and freezing funds forever!) while also being fairly secure from members conspiring to run with the funds.

Phillip would be a great candidate to hold one of those keys. Personally, I think valkir would be good too. Maybe even me as well.  ;)


I read this as ...we are gonna fill out our data hall first...then we MAY get to you on some units IF you buy a shitload of them to make it worth our while...assuming we have any left :)

(hey I'm just cynical since home mining btc is over for me at 13.5c kwh and 100 amp panel ...I feel soooooo small) :)


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: GreatNorthData on September 26, 2015, 07:25:19 PM
Well, that's quite the stretch goal!

61 SP50s (6.7PH/1MW) calls for quite a bit of cash. Some napkin math and price guesses probably puts the total upfront payment over 2M USD. I don't think our pockets go that deep, but who knows.

Regardless, the more you show up with the cheaper hosting will be.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 26, 2015, 09:57:02 PM
I read this as ...we are gonna fill out our data hall first...then we MAY get to you on some units IF you buy a shitload of them to make it worth our while...assuming we have any left :)

(hey I'm just cynical since home mining btc is over for me at 13.5c kwh and 100 amp panel ...I feel soooooo small) :)

Me too.
However, it also seems like they will end up selling to the general public in a few months--and from there we can negotiate a bulk buy. Luckily, there's no pressure to start collecting funds now, so we can afford to wait until the moment is right.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on September 27, 2015, 03:51:33 AM
With an investment that, large 10+ Sp50's, I think it would be worth while to form an LLC or S-corp... for protections on both ends before and after the purchase but thats just my 2 cents :)

And personally, I wouldnt touch the BTCS stock, at least not yet. BTCS has been operating at a loss since day one. Although, year over year they have managed to diminish the total deficit/year operating loss... it is still far from a profitable holding.


There are a few forms LLC or S-corp types.   Some require board meetings.  If we made a min investment to join, we could have a "board" and decide business through it.  With skype we would be able to do it online even.

I think the main thing is finding cheap electricity location.  If we can do our own location  I think we can get the lowest possible price, no middle man.  Just the CO-OP owning it.

I honestly hope something like this happens


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Dr Charles on September 27, 2015, 12:56:00 PM
With an investment that, large 10+ Sp50's, I think it would be worth while to form an LLC or S-corp... for protections on both ends before and after the purchase but thats just my 2 cents :)

And personally, I wouldnt touch the BTCS stock, at least not yet. BTCS has been operating at a loss since day one. Although, year over year they have managed to diminish the total deficit/year operating loss... it is still far from a profitable holding.


There are a few forms LLC or S-corp types.   Some require board meetings.  If we made a min investment to join, we could have a "board" and decide business through it.  With skype we would be able to do it online even.

I think the main thing is finding cheap electricity location.  If we can do our own location  I think we can get the lowest possible price, no middle man.  Just the CO-OP owning it.

I honestly hope something like this happens

I think it would be the best way to handle a venture like the proposed Co-op.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: varakunai on September 27, 2015, 01:30:15 PM
I would be in for an investment pending the setup and hw pricing.  Was looking at buy an SP50 for my farm, but would love to get lower than .075 electricity like I have now. 


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on September 27, 2015, 05:35:06 PM
I would be in for an investment pending the setup and hw pricing.  Was looking at buy an SP50 for my farm, but would love to get lower than .075 electricity like I have now. 

The thing with the CO-OP I think if we go out and find cheap electricity for it we could easily beat that.   I would hope .03-.04 would be my goal range for the mining CO-OP to be able to compete with the "big guys".

Finding the right place for electricity and setting that  up would be a big part of the initial setup period.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 27, 2015, 09:47:20 PM
The thing with the CO-OP I think if we go out and find cheap electricity for it we could easily beat that.   I would hope .03-.04 would be my goal range for the mining CO-OP to be able to compete with the "big guys".

Finding the right place for electricity and setting that  up would be a big part of the initial setup period.

A lot more risks come into play if we decide to build our own datacenter. We'd need to hire dedicated support staff and provide an absolutely massive upfront investment. It will take far longer to get from planning --> funding --> hashing. Remember, our quoted hosting rate includes not only electricity, but dedicated staff and space in the datacenter as well.

For that reason I think we should outsource our hosting--although we don't win on cost, it greatly lowers risk (its hard for someone to run with the funds), and greatly increases transparency.

I say we keep it as simple as possible.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: torepia on September 27, 2015, 10:38:41 PM
The thing with the CO-OP I think if we go out and find cheap electricity for it we could easily beat that.   I would hope .03-.04 would be my goal range for the mining CO-OP to be able to compete with the "big guys".

Finding the right place for electricity and setting that  up would be a big part of the initial setup period.

A lot more risks come into play if we decide to build our own datacenter. We'd need to hire dedicated support staff and provide an absolutely massive upfront investment. It will take far longer to get from planning --> funding --> hashing. Remember, our quoted hosting rate includes not only electricity, but dedicated staff and space in the datacenter as well.

For that reason I think we should outsource our hosting--although we don't win on cost, it greatly lowers risk (its hard for someone to run with the funds), and greatly increases transparency.

I say we keep it as simple as possible.

I agree, kinda. It's good that it includes rack space, management and cooling. Probably save a couple of watts on cooling that makes up for the "higher" kwh/$.

But, if we could get community members to host it at a better hosting price, I'm all for it!
Ex: Guys like dmwardjr got 36k W available for mining at home :P


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on September 28, 2015, 03:33:43 AM
The thing with the CO-OP I think if we go out and find cheap electricity for it we could easily beat that.   I would hope .03-.04 would be my goal range for the mining CO-OP to be able to compete with the "big guys".

Finding the right place for electricity and setting that  up would be a big part of the initial setup period.

A lot more risks come into play if we decide to build our own datacenter. We'd need to hire dedicated support staff and provide an absolutely massive upfront investment. It will take far longer to get from planning --> funding --> hashing. Remember, our quoted hosting rate includes not only electricity, but dedicated staff and space in the datacenter as well.

For that reason I think we should outsource our hosting--although we don't win on cost, it greatly lowers risk (its hard for someone to run with the funds), and greatly increases transparency.

I say we keep it as simple as possible.

I agree, kinda. It's good that it includes rack space, management and cooling. Probably save a couple of watts on cooling that makes up for the "higher" kwh/$.

But, if we could get community members to host it at a better hosting price, I'm all for it!
Ex: Guys like dmwardjr got 36k W available for mining at home :P

I think we could get most of the skills needed to set it up.  I think initial investment would not be horrible if we can find a place that rents in a area of low electricity.  I could be wrong but I think going with a data center we will pay twice the electricity price we could get.  I would hope we could find a place close to a member or two, but that could be wishful thinking.  But it would be a heck of a lot easier I agree with that.

I don't see it really being a CO-OP if we use a data center though.  That is something any of us could do now. CO-OP: a business or organization that is owned and operated by the people who work there or the people who use its services.

Are there any data centers in US you are looking at?  A lot of data centers are going to have a VAT in other countries.  Does the one your looking at have a vat to get miners sent there?



Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: GreatNorthData on September 28, 2015, 01:23:59 PM
I think we could get most of the skills needed to set it up.  I think initial investment would not be horrible if we can find a place that rents in a area of low electricity.  I could be wrong but I think going with a data center we will pay twice the electricity price we could get.  I would hope we could find a place close to a member or two, but that could be wishful thinking.  But it would be a heck of a lot easier I agree with that.

I don't see it really being a CO-OP if we use a data center though.  That is something any of us could do now. CO-OP: a business or organization that is owned and operated by the people who work there or the people who use its services.

Are there any data centers in US you are looking at?  A lot of data centers are going to have a VAT in other countries.  Does the one your looking at have a vat to get miners sent there?


Duty (VAT) entering Canada is 5%, otherwise taxes are included in our fees. And if you register as a business in Canada, you'll get the VAT back on your taxes as Canadian businesses get refunded any VAT they spend. (Offset by any you collect, which would be none as mining won't normally result in any HST collection.)

And its not just electricity you need. Each cent per kWh is $7.50, roughly, a month. You need a rental space, insurance, maintenance, gas etc. Say you do 100kW of demand. Rent is easily going to be $2000 or $3000 a month. Take the lower number, and that's almost 3 cents/kWh by itself, before electricity. If you could find a spot to rent for super cheap, go for it, but I don't think you're going to find a decent electrical hook up for cheap. (Especially with legalized marijuana, grow ops compete with bitcoin mines in some states for power.)

Whoever is going to service it is also going to expect to get paid and have their gas and expenses reimbursed. Throw in insurance and all the things that could go wrong, like leaks or building security issues.

You'll find electricity is actually less than all the other costs of running a data centre on the scale you're considering. Run your own numbers, but I doubt you'd be able to bring 100kW online for less than our prices, unless someone in the group buy has that kind of power and is willing to give you a sweetheart deal on rent.

That being said, don't let me stop you guys if that's the direction you want to go. It just appears you're all serious, so I thought I'd jump back in. Our hosting would come with maintenance and 24/7 staff onsite.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: HerbPean on September 28, 2015, 02:14:23 PM
Talked with Valkir during the weekend. (Very cool guy btw)

I might be interested to join you guys if you can settled a deal. (SP50 would be great)

I will be following the thread.

Herb


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: torepia on September 28, 2015, 02:52:17 PM
GND has a decent price. For comparison, I work at 2MW datacenter. The price for hosting a sp50 would be around 400$ a month just in rack-space, + electricity + inet + mgmt ++(And of course 25% VAT).

GND: Does the price include management of the miners?


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: GreatNorthData on September 28, 2015, 05:25:29 PM
GND: Does the price include management of the miners?


Yes


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 28, 2015, 05:39:56 PM
I might be interested to join you guys if you can settled a deal. (SP50 would be great)

Awesome. The more the merrier!


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: valkir on September 28, 2015, 08:28:35 PM
Armed, any update from spondoolie ?


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 28, 2015, 08:50:59 PM
Armed, any update from spondoolie ?

I've sent a follow-up email asking for details and expressing again our interest in buying their units. I mentioned this thread too, maybe they'll do it for the PR--supporting our community effort looks good. I'm hoping for a non-form letter response this time.

I haven't hear back yet, but my fingers are crossed.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Dr Charles on September 28, 2015, 09:18:45 PM
Would be nice to get a couple SP50's running in a beast like this:

http://www.grcooling.com/containerized-carnotjet-data-center/


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: torepia on September 28, 2015, 09:57:40 PM
Would be nice to get a couple SP50's running in a beast like this:

http://www.grcooling.com/containerized-carnotjet-data-center/

It would be nice, but we'll never ROI that investment!


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on September 28, 2015, 10:23:10 PM
Would be nice to get a couple SP50's running in a beast like this:

http://www.grcooling.com/containerized-carnotjet-data-center/

It would be nice, but we'll never ROI that investment!

There are at least two copanies on here that sell pre-done containers.  They seem very high to me and I don't think they will make sense for most.  If you are dragging the entire thing from place to place..... i guess so but chances are once you sit it you will not be moving it again.

GND seems to be watching which is actually nice to know a data center is looking at thread.   GND I know you have talked about prices likely to go down again sometime in future (I believe).   If there was a big group buy of hardware sent to you could you do as far as lowest price that is your next drop?  And when would you expect it to happen?


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: GreatNorthData on September 29, 2015, 12:57:44 AM
If there was a big group buy of hardware sent to you could you do as far as lowest price that is your next drop?  And when would you expect it to happen?

There are so many factors. I don't want to over promise and under deliver. Rates are going to continue to drop for the foreseeable future, but what I've posted in this thread is the best we can do right now. The answer could very well be different in a few months.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on September 30, 2015, 12:11:13 PM
Armed, any update from spondoolie ?

I've sent a follow-up email asking for details and expressing again our interest in buying their units. I mentioned this thread too, maybe they'll do it for the PR--supporting our community effort looks good. I'm hoping for a non-form letter response this time.

I haven't hear back yet, but my fingers are crossed.


Got a reply from SP!

Quote from: my_email
Thank you for your reply. We do understand and appreciate your need for more information.

Due to the nature of our limited initial product offering we are not able to publish pricing at this time. Since the order size is one of several factors in the decision the number is not set.

When we are able to make the machines available to a wider group of customers we will publish pricing, shipping information and other relevant details. There is not a time frame established just yet. Please check back with us for periodic updates.

Looks like we're going to have to play the waiting game, guys.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Biffa on October 01, 2015, 01:37:35 AM
I got a funny feeling the MOQ will not be 1 unit


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: klondike_bar on October 01, 2015, 01:53:27 AM
I'll be legitimately surprised if the SP50 comes in under $50K each. Buying 22x S7 to get the same hashrate would cost you over $40K, plus PSUs, plus the premium of having about 40% lower power consumption and, if it's like everything else SP has ever released, undervoltability (but this is very questionable given the released specs). $50-60k seems about right, which puts the 1MW cost around $3M.

don't forget that you are also paying for 22xcontrollers ($~40/ea?), about 38 extra fans (44 vs 6 IIRC)(~$10/ea), and other costs related to the case, pcie sockets, more heatsink weight, larger individual shipping boxes (probably costs $500 more to ship those S7 units then to ship a single SP50).

The Sp50 shaves around $2000 in costs by being a singular device with only one controller. Enough to make up for the 10x power supplies almost. Add in the "bulk" aspect, and i would assume $40-45k

also: i would put at least 10BTC towards a well-orchestrated GB with colocation at GND. I would risk more, but I believe holding BTC>$400 might be a better investment


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on October 01, 2015, 02:08:18 AM
I'll be legitimately surprised if the SP50 comes in under $50K each. Buying 22x S7 to get the same hashrate would cost you over $40K, plus PSUs, plus the premium of having about 40% lower power consumption and, if it's like everything else SP has ever released, undervoltability (but this is very questionable given the released specs). $50-60k seems about right, which puts the 1MW cost around $3M.

don't forget that you are also paying for 22xcontrollers ($~40/ea?), about 38 extra fans (44 vs 6 IIRC)(~$10/ea), and other costs related to the case, pcie sockets, more heatsink weight, larger individual shipping boxes (probably costs $500 more to ship those S7 units then to ship a single SP50).

The Sp50 shaves around $2000 in costs by being a singular device with only one controller. Enough to make up for the 10x power supplies almost. Add in the "bulk" aspect, and i would assume $40-45k

also: i would put at least 10BTC towards a well-orchestrated GB with colocation at GND. I would risk more, but I believe holding BTC>$400 might be a better investment

Were kinda guessing there is no way to know really what they want.  If just buying one it no doubt will be higher side as not bulk customer. 

I see this as kinda a hard sell on getting the money if it is 40-50k.   If the co-op uses a data center and get's same electricity price as I could go get myself from them there is not a huge upside.    I think with co-op you really need to be focused on finding low priced electrical data center if you are sure on pre-done one.   

I really wish we could find a way to use combined skills to truly make a low budget mining center.  If your talking about buying a few SP50's getting a center for probley around half the price of electricity really makes sense to me.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on October 01, 2015, 07:14:29 PM
I used to host some hardware with allinvain a while back, but I didn't consider him as an option for this group buy because he recently was undercut by the competition.

However, I checked his page out last night, and it looks like he's dropped his rates considerably--and they are very competitive!
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=500121.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=500121.0)
Converting that 6mo CAD figure to USD I get $49/KW, or $0.068/KW. I've contacted him for a bulk quote, I'll report back when I hear from him.

I think it might be wise to actually have a member visit these hosting locations if we get enough interest and if we're down to a few options. After all, price shouldn't be the only thing we're looking for in our hoster--and posting pics will help make this whole operation look more legitimate. As a canadian, it wouldn't be too expensive for me to go.

I'm fairly certain both GND and CryptoBoreas are both based out of the same town in labrador.

Thoughts?


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: HerbPean on October 01, 2015, 07:17:00 PM
I used to host some hardware with allinvain a while back, but I didn't consider him as an option for this group buy because he recently was undercut by the competition.

However, I checked his page out last night, and it looks like he's dropped his rates considerably--and they are very competitive!
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=500121.0
Converting that 6mo CAD figure to USD I get $49/KW, or $0.068/KW. I've contacted him for a bulk quote, I'll report back when I hear from him.

I think it might be wise to actually have a member visit these hosting locations if we get enough interest and if we're down to a few options. After all, price shouldn't be the only thing we're looking for in our hoster--and posting pics will help make this whole operation look more legitimate. As a canadian, it wouldn't be too expensive for me to go.

I'm fairly certain both GND and CryptoBoreas are both based out of the same town in labrador.

My S7 are going to be host by him ;-) He already host my S4.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on October 01, 2015, 07:19:17 PM
You quoted an old version of my post! I tried to do a ninja edit, but apparently was a few seconds too late. :)


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: HerbPean on October 01, 2015, 07:35:01 PM
You quoted an old version of my post! I tried to do a ninja edit, but apparently was a few seconds too late. :)

/fixed


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Dr Charles on October 01, 2015, 08:40:23 PM
I would be willing to visit any datacenters on the east coast US and provide pictures if they allow it. NC currently has decent electric rates because theyre trying to attract large industrial companies. They are providing larger electric rate discounts for the more power used. By simply using a meer 700kwh or more per month the rate can be around $.08-.09/kwh depending on your area. I am sure large datacenters can get even more aggressive.

I am paying between $.096-.11/kwh for residential service and my industrial power is even less for the BFTB mining project.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on October 01, 2015, 09:47:35 PM
I would be willing to visit any datacenters on the east coast US and provide pictures if they allow it. NC currently has decent electric rates because theyre trying to attract large industrial companies. They are providing larger electric rate discounts for the more power used. By simply using a meer 700kwh or more per month the rate can be around $.08-.09/kwh depending on your area. I am sure large datacenters can get even more aggressive.

I am paying between $.096-.11/kwh for residential service and my industrial power is even less for the BFTB mining project.

I think we would want to get a rate of around .05 or less.  That is my personal thoughts on a co-op is to go somewhere that is able to provide cheap electricity (I prefer US but not stuck on it).  I only problem I have outside of US is that I know much more about us LLC and small corp's and like the assets kept in country company is in.  But it seems there has been a decent amount of focus twords canada, I could be wrong but seems that way. 

The hard part seems to be the data centers do have overhead and they do  not go down to this rate yet at least.   But for me to want to spend a lot electricity would have to be right priced as I want machines to be able to run after having.   

We could get one that works perfectly fine now with  existing data centers.  But at having still a lot of unknowns.  So I would want to ROI before then if spending lots. 


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: allinvain on October 02, 2015, 03:54:19 PM
Sorry for the late reply, I just got back from a brief (well relatively brief for some) vacation. We can easily host 100kw worth of gear. Armedmilitia I replied to your PM. I'm going to discuss your offer with my partner and PM you a rate for 100 kw worth of consumption.

Did you guys decide yet on what miners you will purchase? (SP50 or S7s?)


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on October 02, 2015, 08:46:57 PM
Sorry for the late reply, I just got back from a brief (well relatively brief for some) vacation. We can easily host 100kw worth of gear. Armedmilitia I replied to your PM. I'm going to discuss your offer with my partner and PM you a rate for 100 kw worth of consumption.

Did you guys decide yet on what miners you will purchase? (SP50 or S7s?)

Right now it seems like we are leaning towards the SP50. That being said it really boils down to price and availability--SP50s are not available at the moment, and we don't know what Spondoolies is charging for them, so I think it is wise for us to wait and see.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: mavericklm on October 03, 2015, 03:16:22 AM
or go for s7 and don't waste the time! ::)


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on October 03, 2015, 03:28:11 AM
or go for s7 and don't waste the time! ::)

It might not be wise. Bitmain is the only game in town right now selling to the public. Their prices are jacked up because there is no competition.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on October 03, 2015, 04:33:20 AM
or go for s7 and don't waste the time! ::)

It might not be wise. Bitmain is the only game in town right now selling to the public. Their prices are jacked up because there is no competition.

To get SP50 pricing this group would have to be pretty much set in stone with a lot of funding.  I have a feeling it might take a purchase of a few specifically at the first.

The hard part is at first I think it would take a NDA to a lot of the info with SP50.  But then you run into problem of how do you share info under NDA with co-op members who don't have one.   Unless you are really set on SP and got initial funding and got entire group to do NDA's.

For what it's worth I still think electricity is just as important as miner.   This group just needs a lot more set in stone I think before it will move to next stage.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: allinvain on October 03, 2015, 10:14:05 AM
Sorry for the late reply, I just got back from a brief (well relatively brief for some) vacation. We can easily host 100kw worth of gear. Armedmilitia I replied to your PM. I'm going to discuss your offer with my partner and PM you a rate for 100 kw worth of consumption.

Did you guys decide yet on what miners you will purchase? (SP50 or S7s?)

Right now it seems like we are leaning towards the SP50. That being said it really boils down to price and availability--SP50s are not available at the moment, and we don't know what Spondoolies is charging for them, so I think it is wise for us to wait and see.

It would be wise, or you could just buy S7s now and later on sell them and get SP50s. There would be a slight loss of hashing power and additional funds may be required to get the same equivalent hashing power but you are at least hashing sooner rather than later and thus could also benefit from a potential rise in the btc exchange rate (which likely is an important factor for some of the GB members).



Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on October 04, 2015, 12:04:37 AM
Sorry for the late reply, I just got back from a brief (well relatively brief for some) vacation. We can easily host 100kw worth of gear. Armedmilitia I replied to your PM. I'm going to discuss your offer with my partner and PM you a rate for 100 kw worth of consumption.

Did you guys decide yet on what miners you will purchase? (SP50 or S7s?)

Right now it seems like we are leaning towards the SP50. That being said it really boils down to price and availability--SP50s are not available at the moment, and we don't know what Spondoolies is charging for them, so I think it is wise for us to wait and see.

It would be wise, or you could just buy S7s now and later on sell them and get SP50s. There would be a slight loss of hashing power and additional funds may be required to get the same equivalent hashing power but you are at least hashing sooner rather than later and thus could also benefit from a potential rise in the btc exchange rate (which likely is an important factor for some of the GB members).



I think the money is currently not there.  I could be wrong but this seems like a lot of talk of good ideas but no money has been trade hands.  Is there an estimate of how much money will be behind this?

I know some don't think so but I think if find low priced electricity would have a lot more investors.  If you could show .05 or less electricity I think it would not matter S7 or SP50 people would be interested.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on October 04, 2015, 02:44:48 AM
The S7 is FAR less power efficient than the SP50. There is an enormous difference between 0.25 and 0.15 w/gh. Unless there is competition in the market (which at the moment, there isn't), it is really not a good idea to buy the S7, as bitmain has no incentive to lower their prices to realistic levels, and their miner has already been eclipsed.

Even at this very optimistic $0.05/kwh, we're looking at 365 days until breaking even on S7s, not factoring in:
  • The block reward halving.
  • Significant hardware lead time. (best case, they'll be hashing 3-4 weeks from today)
  • More efficient hardware being released over the next year which spikes difficulty.
  • Cost of PSUs.
  • Downtime from damaged miners (as they await RMA), power loss, and internet blackouts.

As for difficulty, the simulation assumes that the rate of difficulty increase stays the same (8.72% per month). That's a very optimistic difficulty estimate, since SP50s haven't even been deployed in large qtys yet.
Sim link: https://coinplorer.com/Hardware/Simulate/56108b61226bf41570cbce49?key=079d11b5-c797-4d29-8f91-61bd6fce8add (https://coinplorer.com/Hardware/Simulate/56108b61226bf41570cbce49?key=079d11b5-c797-4d29-8f91-61bd6fce8add)

Even in the best case, almost fairy-tale like scenario outlined above, our numbers are shit. I am not comfortable in organizing a hardware buy that is doomed by math.

Now, as for the strategy of selling the S7s early and buying SP50's: It's fairly complicated to do that. We'd need to find a buyer/multiple buyers for the s7s, pay escrow fees, hold the funds, negotiate with Spondoolies, and then purchase the SP50s. It exposes us to more risks: What if we can't find a buyer, or we can't negotiate a favourable deal with Spondoolies after selling the miners?

Plus, we still have the problem that we greatly overpaid for our miners, and we are counting on suckers to overpay for ours.

We are in no rush, absolutely no rush at all, to get this done. What we need is competition, price quotes from the competition, and the math to add up. Right now, we have none of those.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on October 04, 2015, 05:29:08 AM
The S7 is FAR less power efficient than the SP50. There is an enormous difference between 0.25 and 0.15 w/gh. Unless there is competition in the market (which at the moment, there isn't), it is really not a good idea to buy the S7, as bitmain has no incentive to lower their prices to realistic levels, and their miner has already been eclipsed.

Even at this very optimistic $0.05/kwh, we're looking at 365 days until breaking even on S7s, not factoring in:
  • The block reward halving.
  • Significant hardware lead time. (best case, they'll be hashing 3-4 weeks from today)
  • More efficient hardware being released over the next year which spikes difficulty.
  • Cost of PSUs.
  • Downtime from damaged miners (as they await RMA), power loss, and internet blackouts.

As for difficulty, the simulation assumes that the rate of difficulty increase stays the same (8.72% per month). That's a very optimistic difficulty estimate, since SP50s haven't even been deployed in large qtys yet.
Sim link: https://coinplorer.com/Hardware/Simulate/56108b61226bf41570cbce49?key=079d11b5-c797-4d29-8f91-61bd6fce8add (https://coinplorer.com/Hardware/Simulate/56108b61226bf41570cbce49?key=079d11b5-c797-4d29-8f91-61bd6fce8add)

Even in the best case, almost fairy-tale like scenario outlined above, our numbers are shit. I am not comfortable in organizing a hardware buy that is doomed by math.

Now, as for the strategy of selling the S7s early and buying SP50's: It's fairly complicated to do that. We'd need to find a buyer/multiple buyers for the s7s, pay escrow fees, hold the funds, negotiate with Spondoolies, and then purchase the SP50s. It exposes us to more risks: What if we can't find a buyer, or we can't negotiate a favourable deal with Spondoolies after selling the miners?

Plus, we still have the problem that we greatly overpaid for our miners, and we are counting on suckers to overpay for ours.

We are in no rush, absolutely no rush at all, to get this done. What we need is competition, price quotes from the competition, and the math to add up. Right now, we have none of those.

I am for finding that electricity price of .05 or less the very optimistic price, and not easy to get.   A S7 on .05 electricity costs less then a SP50 on .10 electricity.  This is why I think finding cheap electricity is so important.

On SP50 we really don't know much yet.  We have a picture and stats.  We really have no idea on the release date.  And even once it launches I think it will take multiple to get it at first at least.   So were talking a lot of money.  I could be wrong I just think S7 and SP50 are geared for different customers.   

And I could be wrong I'm just speculating.  I like this idea a lot just think it needs a little tweaking and some things decided eventually.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Biodom on October 04, 2015, 08:58:32 PM
1. I am not aware of any datacenter that will charge you only 5c/kwh.
2. We don't know the price of SP50. Without this piece of info, nothing can be calculated.
3. Someone has to show that an actual machine routinely reaches 110 Th and stays there.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: philipma1957 on October 05, 2015, 01:11:04 AM
1. I am not aware of any datacenter that will charge you only 5c/kwh.
2. We don't know the price of SP50. Without this piece of info, nothing can be calculated.
3. Someone has to show that an actual machine routinely reaches 110 Th and stays there.

Not to say I dislike sp-tech  ,    but If I recall  their claim on the sp20 doing 1700gh  would be like me saying my Kia Forte does 120mph.

Yes  my Kia  does  120 mph downhill on a straight dry road in the daylight.


So if you all recall the sp20 really ran well at 1300gh.  about .55watts a gh

And at 1700 more like 1650 gh it did about .75 watts a gh

So it is possible the the sp50 can do 110th  and it is possible it can do .15watts  but that it can not do both at the same time.

My guess is you will want to run the sp50 at  95th in order to see that .15watts


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on October 10, 2015, 05:58:54 PM
LK Group just posted renders and stats on their upcoming gear. Feast your eyes! We might just be getting the competition I asked for! The more hardware on the market, the better the chances competition will start driving prices down.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on October 10, 2015, 09:03:16 PM
LK Group just posted renders and stats on their upcoming gear. Feast your eyes! We might just be getting the competition I asked for! The more hardware on the market, the better the chances competition will start driving prices down.

LKETC has as long history with it's dragon's (or A1's by technical name).  They have been a big producer in the past.  They partner with Innosilicon on chips.  Only thing is they announced kinda early and now did a reminder.

As far as timeline it's more to do with Innosilicon.  Once they get chips going no doubt LKETC will be partners again.  But when that will be is the question.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: QuintLeo on October 12, 2015, 12:19:13 AM
Quote

I am for finding that electricity price of .05 or less the very optimistic price, and not easy to get.


 Trivial to get in the US - *IF* you live in one of 3 counties in Washington State. Pretty much impossible about anywhere else in the US AFIAK.


Quote

There is an enormous difference between 0.25 and 0.15 w/gh.


 But can the SP50 hit 110TH at 0.15 w/gh? Given Spondoolies record, I'd guess that the 2 figures are mutually exclusive - pick one or the other but not both.
 I'd guess closer to 80TH to hit that 0.15 figure, but 'till actuall hardware hits the field it's hard to tell.

 I suspect the 8.72%/month of the "simulation" might be a bit pessimistic - but I wouldn't bet on much less than 8% (4% per difficulty adjustment appx) for the rest of this year and well into next year. Too many announcements of "new hardware" yet current hardware is still profitable (SP20/30/possibly other Spondoolies and S5s should stay profitable 'till the halfing, though they might just be BARELY so by June 2016).



Quote

By simply using a meer 700kwh or more per month the rate can be around $.08-.09/kwh depending on your area.


 Standard residential rate around here *EXCEPT for 3 months in the summer*, I get appx. 0.67 (all charges and tax included) for every KWH past about 1200 per month. There is also a "Time of Day" rate that doesn't save much on that last "step" in the rate, but does cut a noticeable amount from the first 2 steps of the rate.

 A single S5 will go through about 430 KWH a month, so it's NOT hard to get to the top tier of the residential rates here.

 On the other hand, June 16 through September 15 at around 14.2c/KWH (with ALL adjustments AND ToD rate included and NO lower tiers with higher usage) is pretty bad.


 I've not looked at commercial rates around here at all, since I have more power than I can use at home.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on October 12, 2015, 12:59:18 AM
Lower rates are possible look over at Mr. Lees thread like one away from this:

we negotiate with a new electricity supplier those day, if we achieve agreement, the host fee will deduce to 0.07$ per kw.h on this new farm.
however, we want to do another host model in this farm, eg cloud mining mode.

we want to sell hash rate directly, the price should be 369$ each Th/s @ 0.3watt/gh/s , so the daily host fee will be 0.3*24*0.07=0.504$ for each Th/s,  we will calculate the mining earning according to 4%pps and pay the earning to customer each  day after deduce daily host fee(we will transfer daily host fee to bitcoin according to exchange ratio from bitfinex at 9:00AM(UMT+8)each day).

that is a similar model like hashnest, the only difference is that our host fee is better, and i also will not charge for expensive off-shelf fee when the project is end. i will try to sell the miner on used miner market and pay the money directly to customer.

He is most likely going to manage .07 well before hashing.  This is greater then any offer I think we have been given.    If we get our ducks in a row I still say electricity price is a huge factor we should focus on.

The big winners will have cheap electricity.   


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: GreatNorthData on October 12, 2015, 02:34:24 AM
Lower rates are possible look over at Mr. Lees thread like one away from this:

we negotiate with a new electricity supplier those day, if we achieve agreement, the host fee will deduce to 0.07$ per kw.h on this new farm.
however, we want to do another host model in this farm, eg cloud mining mode.

we want to sell hash rate directly, the price should be 369$ each Th/s @ 0.3watt/gh/s , so the daily host fee will be 0.3*24*0.07=0.504$ for each Th/s,  we will calculate the mining earning according to 4%pps and pay the earning to customer each  day after deduce daily host fee(we will transfer daily host fee to bitcoin according to exchange ratio from bitfinex at 9:00AM(UMT+8)each day).

that is a similar model like hashnest, the only difference is that our host fee is better, and i also will not charge for expensive off-shelf fee when the project is end. i will try to sell the miner on used miner market and pay the money directly to customer.

He is most likely going to manage .07 well before hashing.  This is greater then any offer I think we have been given.    If we get our ducks in a row I still say electricity price is a huge factor we should focus on.

The big winners will have cheap electricity.   

I think I offered 0.07 if you have at least 100kW


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on October 12, 2015, 03:56:00 AM
Lower rates are possible look over at Mr. Lees thread like one away from this:

we negotiate with a new electricity supplier those day, if we achieve agreement, the host fee will deduce to 0.07$ per kw.h on this new farm.
however, we want to do another host model in this farm, eg cloud mining mode.

we want to sell hash rate directly, the price should be 369$ each Th/s @ 0.3watt/gh/s , so the daily host fee will be 0.3*24*0.07=0.504$ for each Th/s,  we will calculate the mining earning according to 4%pps and pay the earning to customer each  day after deduce daily host fee(we will transfer daily host fee to bitcoin according to exchange ratio from bitfinex at 9:00AM(UMT+8)each day).

that is a similar model like hashnest, the only difference is that our host fee is better, and i also will not charge for expensive off-shelf fee when the project is end. i will try to sell the miner on used miner market and pay the money directly to customer.

He is most likely going to manage .07 well before hashing.  This is greater then any offer I think we have been given.    If we get our ducks in a row I still say electricity price is a huge factor we should focus on.

The big winners will have cheap electricity.   

I think I offered 0.07 if you have at least 100kW

I don't know that .07 was offered that is a little more promising then I though.  You were more like this:

If there was a big group buy of hardware sent to you could you do as far as lowest price that is your next drop?  And when would you expect it to happen?

There are so many factors. I don't want to over promise and under deliver. Rates are going to continue to drop for the foreseeable future, but what I've posted in this thread is the best we can do right now. The answer could very well be different in a few months.

I still think magic number to try to get is .05.   I feel data centers are finding better and better places and prices are shrinking.  So I'm hoping around there still.

But I can understand not giving exact numbers as this CO-OP has been pretty slow moving.  I still have hope it will speed up once a new product hits market.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Searing on October 12, 2015, 05:08:46 AM
LK Group just posted renders and stats on their upcoming gear. Feast your eyes! We might just be getting the competition I asked for! The more hardware on the market, the better the chances competition will start driving prices down.
Here are details :

Process Node: 14mm
Hashrate Model: 3TH/S , 5TH/S, 10TH/S.. ,
Power consuming : 260W/T
Cooling: heatsink + Dual 12cm Fan
Dimension: 349mm(L)*176mm(W)*148mm(H)
connection port : Ethernet RJ45
Working temperature : 0℃--40℃

http://www.itop-corp.com/asset/file/image/20151010/20151010211943_54447.jpg



Anyone on here have an educated guess on what say the 3TH above would go for? or the 5TH admitedly this would be I suppose by the time we
would see such a unit be Jan or Feb 2016 at my guess

Just curious I'm very bad at the above price guessing game. I'm always low.



Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on October 12, 2015, 06:28:31 AM
LK Group just posted renders and stats on their upcoming gear. Feast your eyes! We might just be getting the competition I asked for! The more hardware on the market, the better the chances competition will start driving prices down.
Here are details :

Process Node: 14mm
Hashrate Model: 3TH/S , 5TH/S, 10TH/S.. ,
Power consuming : 260W/T
Cooling: heatsink + Dual 12cm Fan
Dimension: 349mm(L)*176mm(W)*148mm(H)
connection port : Ethernet RJ45
Working temperature : 0℃--40℃

http://www.itop-corp.com/asset/file/image/20151010/20151010211943_54447.jpg



Anyone on here have an educated guess on what say the 3TH above would go for? or the 5TH admitedly this would be I suppose by the time we
would see such a unit be Jan or Feb 2016 at my guess

Just curious I'm very bad at the above price guessing game. I'm always low.



Honestly there is no way to know.  A1 dragons originally went for over 3k.  But dropped and dropped.... etc till they are in several hundreds today in many cases.

I don't think it will be near the first A1 dragons price.   But I don't see them playing a big game with bitmain on trying to be cheaper then them.  I suspect a tad cheaper then what ever bitmain is selling at the time.   But they will want profit so no drastic changes from bitmain prices I dont think.

Only company to really force bitmain to drop price in war almost was SP.  And they claimed on some of last sp20's they lost money not sure if true or not. 


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Searing on October 12, 2015, 07:39:28 AM
LK Group just posted renders and stats on their upcoming gear. Feast your eyes! We might just be getting the competition I asked for! The more hardware on the market, the better the chances competition will start driving prices down.
Here are details :

Process Node: 14mm
Hashrate Model: 3TH/S , 5TH/S, 10TH/S.. ,
Power consuming : 260W/T
Cooling: heatsink + Dual 12cm Fan
Dimension: 349mm(L)*176mm(W)*148mm(H)
connection port : Ethernet RJ45
Working temperature : 0℃--40℃

http://www.itop-corp.com/asset/file/image/20151010/20151010211943_54447.jpg



Anyone on here have an educated guess on what say the 3TH above would go for? or the 5TH admitedly this would be I suppose by the time we
would see such a unit be Jan or Feb 2016 at my guess

Just curious I'm very bad at the above price guessing game. I'm always low.



Honestly there is no way to know.  A1 dragons originally went for over 3k.  But dropped and dropped.... etc till they are in several hundreds today in many cases.

I don't think it will be near the first A1 dragons price.   But I don't see them playing a big game with bitmain on trying to be cheaper then them.  I suspect a tad cheaper then what ever bitmain is selling at the time.   But they will want profit so no drastic changes from bitmain prices I don't think.

Only company to really force bitmain to drop price in war almost was SP.  And they claimed on some of last sp20's they lost money not sure if true or not. 


Well I'm in the USA with a 13.5c usd kwh rate. So the whole question is likely MOOT. With bitfury announcing the 100 million data hall expansion and the sp50's 110TH
units and additional data hall by spondoolies and of course knc expanding its private chip data hall with IPO $$$

well hell them big boys could find themselves with a major diff war and the machines may only last 4-5 months before they supersize difficulty too the moon (if not price..it is btc by thw way it only loves 'sideways')

So best I'm out....too many toys ..too cheap elec around the world..used/new/data halls it is like "Go east young man" :)

Bitcoin always a drama queen!


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: QuintLeo on October 12, 2015, 09:45:21 AM
They might have a market for the 10TH unit at $3000 - no way they'll make any sales if the 5TH or 3Th units are even close to that.

Given the watts/TH are almost the same as the S7, they really need to at LEAST match S7 pricing pretty closely, and given they're comming to market later they really need to beat S7 pricing per TH by a bit.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Searing on October 12, 2015, 10:57:02 AM
They might have a market for the 10TH unit at $3000 - no way they'll make any sales if the 5TH or 3Th units are even close to that.

Given the watts/TH are almost the same as the S7, they really need to at LEAST match S7 pricing pretty closely, and given they're comming to market later they really need to beat S7 pricing per TH by a bit.



Yeah but after watching how this stuff works (equip/vs difficulty) by the time such units MAY come out it will be Jan/Feb imho and by then bitfury's 100 million buck data hall is up and so is the large sp50 farm with whatever they allow to go outside as bulk spondoolies that is

and of course it will prob be 6k for such rather then 3k for such and you'd be no better off then an S7 now

seems how that always shakes out (and don't forget most times equip is late by at least a month (spondoolies) or 4-5 months (knc) even their private 16nm chip was late 5 months from what i can tell (knc) for their ipo farm

yeah diff is gonna go way way up with all them toys sitting in data halls hitting the world imho :)

but yeah 3k I'd at least be tempted like the S7 but again in my situation at 13.5c kwh the S7 is pretty to look at but really ..and only a 90 day warranty? If a controller
board breaks you have to RMA all the way back to china? no pay up front and ship and swap the broken component back with rma for credit when it arrives (they'd kill if they did that)

naw too many risks for me even w/o the elec costs....ie again the stuff always seems to arrive months late or on time with issues and my friend this coming year difficulty will wait for NO man ..to pun a famous phrase:

(sits in bleachers eating peanuts watching this asic soap opera)

in that this is the mining co-op thread their MAY be some hope for group buy or such a setup working (to be fair) individually not so much imho.



Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: carlosmnk on October 12, 2015, 11:11:48 AM
I am surprised a 14nm have the same eficency than a 28nm... 0.26w/ghs? really? i ever thought a 14/16nm will be on 0.06w/ghs o 0.08w/ghs and above... up to 0.01w/ghs  :o
But it will help us to buy cheaper...  ::)


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on October 12, 2015, 07:49:02 PM
I am surprised a 14nm have the same eficency than a 28nm... 0.26w/ghs? really? i ever thought a 14/16nm will be on 0.06w/ghs o 0.08w/ghs and above... up to 0.01w/ghs  :o
But it will help us to buy cheaper...  ::)

The company's that kept 28 NM really did a great job getting more out of it.  Right now BM's S7 they pushed it pretty well.  And if SP50 comes like spec they got even better out of their chip.

I think the ones that kept current NM and perfected it got a head start and easier R/D.   Them going to 14  NM might be good for long term.  But the short term it left them with no miners to sell and a lot longer R/D


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: ATCkit on October 30, 2015, 01:11:36 PM
Count me in. I've done a ton of research on hosting in the past. GND is the best option I had seen the last time I checked.

As far as adding more "hashing power" to this group buy, i think you guys could team up with the Get Hashing group and be able to get larger numbers of people involved. Get Hashing has been doing what you guys are wanting to do for some time. They're on their 3rd batch now. Only difference is they have their data center in the US. Canada, GND or another CDN doing the same thing, will help to get the cost down further.

In a nutshell, it's all about rig efficiency and lowest cost for hosting. The clear choice at this point appears to be:

- the SP50  (Maybe an even more efficient rig will be available by Q1 2016.)

- hosted at GND.

- Get Hashing groups Proof of Everything and their trusted/known pay out model. (perhaps Armed or someone could talk to cyberdexter, keymaster, daffy or nemesio about this?)

Having said all that, none of us can tumble the numbers until we get a price for the SP50 or whatever may be competitive with it in Q1 2016. However, I like the way you guys are thinking.


EDIT: Here's the Get Hashing forum link: https://forum.gethashing.com/  and
how they're already handling dispersal of batch 1 units as they move into batch 3 can be found here: https://forum.gethashing.com/t/ann-ghx-batch-3-hardware-redemption-round-1/5485

Note: I'm not trying to hi jack this group buy idea. I think that like minded people can work together and make it a win win. Get Hashing already has a lot of trust built up with their Proof of Everything (POE) concept.

EDIT 2: Sorry if i missed this. Looks like allinvain has a new site -Cryptoboreas in Montreal. Great prices too. It simply makes sense that Quebec and NFLD/Labrabor have the lowest costs globally.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: blacklizard on October 30, 2015, 04:24:03 PM
Nice idea ATCkit, hope it works out.

Quick side note, SP50's start at 1PH min order. Probably better of aiming at S7's to get started.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 01, 2015, 08:48:13 PM
Count me in. I've done a ton of research on hosting in the past. GND is the best option I had seen the last time I checked.

As far as adding more "hashing power" to this group buy, i think you guys could team up with the Get Hashing group and be able to get larger numbers of people involved. Get Hashing has been doing what you guys are wanting to do for some time. They're on their 3rd batch now. Only difference is they have their data center in the US. Canada, GND or another CDN doing the same thing, will help to get the cost down further.

In a nutshell, it's all about rig efficiency and lowest cost for hosting. The clear choice at this point appears to be:

- the SP50  (Maybe an even more efficient rig will be available by Q1 2016.)

- hosted at GND.

- Get Hashing groups Proof of Everything and their trusted/known pay out model. (perhaps Armed or someone could talk to cyberdexter, keymaster, daffy or nemesio about this?)

Having said all that, none of us can tumble the numbers until we get a price for the SP50 or whatever may be competitive with it in Q1 2016. However, I like the way you guys are thinking.


EDIT: Here's the Get Hashing forum link: https://forum.gethashing.com/  and
how they're already handling dispersal of batch 1 units as they move into batch 3 can be found here: https://forum.gethashing.com/t/ann-ghx-batch-3-hardware-redemption-round-1/5485

Note: I'm not trying to hi jack this group buy idea. I think that like minded people can work together and make it a win win. Get Hashing already has a lot of trust built up with their Proof of Everything (POE) concept.

EDIT 2: Sorry if i missed this. Looks like allinvain has a new site -Cryptoboreas in Montreal. Great prices too. It simply makes sense that Quebec and NFLD/Labrabor have the lowest costs globally.

Interesting. I just ran some math on their hardware offers, it doesn't look too great. They charge a $0.00115/gh maintenance fee on their S7s, which works out to ~$5.60/day or $0.19/KWh. They seem more like a high-margin cloud mining company, which isn't exactly what I'm going for here.

Allinvain's Cryptoboreas site is actually located in Labrador AFAIK, although he does pick up hardware from Montreal and Toronto. I think he used to host in montreal for a while, though.

Right now this whole thread is pretty dead because of the lack of competition in the marketplace. The only company willing to sell hardware to the public is bitmain. Luckily, we've gotten news of upcoming units from Spondoolies (they've said they will open up public SP50 sales "soon"), LK-Group, and Avalon. Once those hit the market, prices should come down a bit, and we can seriously consider raising money to buy units.

Nice idea ATCkit, hope it works out.

Quick side note, SP50's start at 1PH min order. Probably better of aiming at S7's to get started.

Yikes, that's steep. Where did you hear that, by the way? I've gotten very little information from SP-Tech about the SP50.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: allinvain on November 02, 2015, 02:40:46 AM
Yes we are located in Labrador just like GND. We can have hardware delivered to Labrador too. For large scale hardware it's the only way to do it.



Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: philipma1957 on November 02, 2015, 02:06:45 PM
The sp50 is pretty much dead in the water.

I have an idea for s-7 owners we could send them as a group to gnd if the minimum is 30kwatts we need 25

S-7's

I could ship 2 s-7's


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: torepia on November 02, 2015, 04:49:44 PM
I feel we should wait for something that is more power efficient than the S7. The S7 is hard to ROI!
I would however be interested in buying 2 directly from bitmain in a group buy, and getting it hosted.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on November 02, 2015, 05:45:39 PM
I feel we should wait for something that is more power efficient than the S7. The S7 is hard to ROI!
I would however be interested in buying 2 directly from bitmain in a group buy, and getting it hosted.

The problem with this mentality is you are always waiting.  Thinking you will wait for next best, a lot tend to say that and never buy a new miner.

Best price will be if avalon and bitmain compete a little.  And once BW miner is out then it gets very interesting.   


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: torepia on November 04, 2015, 06:15:48 PM
So, get started with 25x S7? 30 kW. At least we got the structure up and running for future investments!


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 07, 2015, 05:00:12 PM
So, get started with 25x S7? 30 kW. At least we got the structure up and running for future investments!

That's an interesting point. We could start out with a small buy of hardware and ramp up from there. On the other hand, we likely won't get any volume discounts for a 30KW purchase, so there's probably going to be little interest in the small buy.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: carlosmnk on November 08, 2015, 09:04:35 PM
So, get started with 25x S7? 30 kW. At least we got the structure up and running for future investments!

I think the AVALON 6 is a better option if it can be underclocked... ;)

Something like 30 or 35 avalon6 to start?  ::)


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 09, 2015, 01:41:27 AM
I've contacted Avalon for a quote on 10, 30, 50 and 100 units. I guess we'll wait and see.  :)


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: mavericklm on November 09, 2015, 11:26:03 AM
avalon 6 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

better batch 6 of s7!


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on November 09, 2015, 03:24:04 PM
avalon 6 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

better batch 6 of s7!

All depends on the underclock which I'm hoping we will see anyday.  If the Avalon 6 has the underclock like 4.1 you will want these to be able to underclock.

But if it's underclock is not like 4.1 then it's not as big of deal.  So we should see pretty soon hopefully on underclock.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: torepia on November 09, 2015, 04:25:14 PM
I've contacted Avalon for a quote on 10, 30, 50 and 100 units. I guess we'll wait and see.  :)

Awesome!

But, how should we do this exactly? I guess we need to make some kind of corp/org?


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 09, 2015, 05:25:16 PM
Updates:
  • Ehash doesn't seem to be selling the Avalon6, and they redirected me to BlockC. Those guys got back to me with a quote! I'm not going to post it in the thread (yet!) but it wasn't a bad offer.
  • I've sent bitmain a very similar email, and have yet to hear back from them.
  • SP-Tech got back to my second email. No change in status since last time: No additional orders, no pricing, no MOQ, and no schedule for future production. The SP50 won't be an option for a while.

I've contacted Avalon for a quote on 10, 30, 50 and 100 units. I guess we'll wait and see.  :)

Awesome!

But, how should we do this exactly? I guess we need to make some kind of corp/org?

I have no experience with incorporation and all my knowledge comes from a few hours of research. I remember a user called Dr Charles earlier in this thread recommended incorporating as well, and he said he had a ton of experience: I've sent him a PM about it. Hopefully he gets back to me!

As for PSUs, I think we should go for Finksy's 2880W units: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=966135.0


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: valkir on November 09, 2015, 06:13:47 PM
I do agree with the choice of the PSU.

Incorporation could also be a good idea.  ;D


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 09, 2015, 06:40:11 PM
WOOOHOO! I just got off the phone with blockC, and I can post something very, very rare to this thread: ACTUAL NUMBERS!
I made sure they were OK with me sharing this information, so put your lawsuits/pitchforks away.  :)

Unit Cost:
For a group buy of moderate size they can do $1350/unit, raspberry pis included. We may get a small additional discount if we get a buttload of them (50+).

Shipping Cost:
If we get less than 50 units it will cost $50/unit (via UPS, ew),
If we get over 50 units they can ship via air freight. That's ~$20 a unit, and can get lower if we buy more. If we got 100 units (I know, it's a big ask), I've been told it goes down to $10 per unit.

This beats the S7 price per TH, arrives earlier, and has practically the same efficiency (0.28J/GH for the S7, 0.29J/GH for the Avalon6). I've been told you can get the Avalon6 down to 0.28 if you use very efficient PSUs, which we are planning on getting with them.

Timeframe:
These are batch 2 avalon6 miners. They are scheduled to arrive at BlockC November 20th, and should arrive at GND/CryptoBoreas about a week after that. If we don't raise funds in time, no big deal. There will be a batch 3, 4, etc. Of course, I'd prefer sooner rather than later.

Undervolting:
The Avalon6 has a string design, so it will be hard to undervolt. Much like the S5/S7, you'll need to actually adjust the input voltage into the miner. It's not very practical, although blockC is planning on making a DC/DC converter in the future that will do the trick.

Note that the S7 does not have a 0.25J/GH efficiency as many people believe. If you look at the specs page for batch 6, it says 0.25J/GH + 10%.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: carlosmnk on November 09, 2015, 07:04:16 PM
WOOOHOO! I just got off the phone with blockC, and I can post something very, very rare to this thread: ACTUAL NUMBERS!
I made sure they were OK with me sharing this information, so put your lawsuits/pitchforks away.  :)

Unit Cost:
For a group buy of moderate size they can do $1350/unit, raspberry pis included. We may get a small additional discount if we get a buttload of them (50+).

Shipping Cost:
If we get less than 50 units it will cost $50/unit (via UPS, ew),
If we get over 50 units they can ship via air freight. That's ~$20 a unit, and can get lower if we buy more. If we got 100 units (I know, it's a big ask), I've been told it goes down to $10 per unit.

This beats the S7 price per TH, arrives earlier, and has practically the same efficiency (0.28J/GH for the S7, 0.29J/GH for the Avalon6). I've been told you can get the Avalon6 down to 0.28 if you use very efficient PSUs, which we are planning on getting with them.

Timeframe:
These are batch 2 avalon6 miners. They are scheduled to arrive at BlockC November 20th, and should arrive at GND/CryptoBoreas about a week after that. If we don't raise funds in time, no big deal. There will be a batch 3, 4, etc. Of course, I'd prefer sooner rather than later.

Undervolting:
The Avalon6 has a string design, so it will be hard to undervolt. Much like the S5/S7, you'll need to actually adjust the input voltage into the miner. It's not very practical, although blockC is planning on making a DC/DC converter in the future that will do the trick.

Note that the S7 does not have a 0.25J/GH efficiency as many people believe. If you look at the specs page for batch 6, it says 0.25J/GH + 10%.

Hi, my vote is for Cryptoboreas, i have with them one S7, one SP20 and two S5 (they are setting up last two units now).  ;D


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 09, 2015, 07:12:01 PM
I agree that right now cryptoboreas is the best option pricewise right now. I'm pretty sure GND hasn't finished their datacenter expansion yet, which means their rates are still going to be quite a bit higher than CB.

On the other hand, great north data has a 24/7 onsite tech, something cryptoboreas doesn't have. If there's a problem, its likely that we will get our miners back up and running faster if we go with GND.

It really depends if you guys think its worth it or not.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: philipma1957 on November 09, 2015, 07:19:02 PM
WOOOHOO! I just got off the phone with blockC, and I can post something very, very rare to this thread: ACTUAL NUMBERS!
I made sure they were OK with me sharing this information, so put your lawsuits/pitchforks away.  :)

Unit Cost:
For a group buy of moderate size they can do $1350/unit, raspberry pis included. We may get a small additional discount if we get a buttload of them (50+).

Shipping Cost:
If we get less than 50 units it will cost $50/unit (via UPS, ew),
If we get over 50 units they can ship via air freight. That's ~$20 a unit, and can get lower if we buy more. If we got 100 units (I know, it's a big ask), I've been told it goes down to $10 per unit.

This beats the S7 price per TH, arrives earlier, and has practically the same efficiency (0.28J/GH for the S7, 0.29J/GH for the Avalon6). I've been told you can get the Avalon6 down to 0.28 if you use very efficient PSUs, which we are planning on getting with them.

Timeframe:
These are batch 2 avalon6 miners. They are scheduled to arrive at BlockC November 20th, and should arrive at GND/CryptoBoreas about a week after that. If we don't raise funds in time, no big deal. There will be a batch 3, 4, etc. Of course, I'd prefer sooner rather than later.

Undervolting:
The Avalon6 has a string design, so it will be hard to undervolt. Much like the S5/S7, you'll need to actually adjust the input voltage into the miner. It's not very practical, although blockC is planning on making a DC/DC converter in the future that will do the trick.

Note that the S7 does not have a 0.25J/GH efficiency as many people believe. If you look at the specs page for batch 6, it says 0.25J/GH + 10%.

I know a little about GND  I know nothing about CryptoBoreas

So what is the link for CB?

What are power costs for GND vs CB?

GND is in Canada where is CB?

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The theory of undervolting an avalon 6 is yet to be proven or tested. 

In a 5, 6 ,7, 8  cent a kwatt  location it is not much of an issue.

That is more for someone like me my winter in house rate = 10 cents my summer in house rate = 17 cents.

Running 1 avalon 6 at 10 volts for the summer is something I may do.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 09, 2015, 07:52:29 PM
I know a little about GND  I know nothing about CryptoBoreas

So what is the link for CB?

What are power costs for GND vs CB?

GND is in Canada where is CB?
CryptoBoreas is the rebranded name of Allinvain's hosting service. Link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1170850.0

CB advertised $65 CAD/KW ($49 USD) for a 6 month term, great north data advertises $60/KW (USD), but can go a bit lower on a 6mo term and a large amount of hardware. Great North Data will have much lower rates in a few months, but right now CB wins.

The datacenter for CryptoBoreas is in Labrador, Canada, and although they don't specify what city they are in it's safe to assume they are based out of Goose Bay. No other city in the province has the right combination of power costs and reliable internet access.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: torepia on November 09, 2015, 08:29:24 PM
ROI for 1 unit:
https://i.imgur.com/4NOkgqOh.png (http://imgur.com/4NOkgqO)

ROI for 30 units:
https://i.imgur.com/XfD2gI1h.png (http://imgur.com/XfD2gI1)

What do you think about these numbers? Ofc there is some hidden costs.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 09, 2015, 08:54:38 PM
Those figures don't include the halving, shipping ($20-50), import duties($67.5), or PSUs. For PSU cost, bulk buying the "royale with cheese" package from finksy could probably get down to $200/unit shipped (maybe lower), and that package can power exactly 2.5 Avalon6 units. Call that 80 for the PSU.

Our total cost per miner and PSU @ 50 units purchased would be $1542.5 USD a unit.

I'm going to write a quick python script to crunch these numbers.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: philipma1957 on November 09, 2015, 09:01:09 PM
I don't see the diff number you used  did you punch in 2 % per jump 3% per jump

I see the monthly diff goes up but how did you get it?

Never mind I found the number 5% per month.  you kept coins flat at 380.

and you have break even around the ½ ing in July

I think that could all happen.
 I actually think price will do better then 380 from now to July.

ROI for 1 unit:
https://i.imgur.com/4NOkgqOh.png (http://imgur.com/4NOkgqO)

ROI for 30 units:
https://i.imgur.com/XfD2gI1h.png (http://imgur.com/XfD2gI1)

What do you think about these numbers? Ofc there is some hidden costs.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: torepia on November 09, 2015, 09:21:16 PM
Those figures don't include the halving, shipping ($20-50), import duties($67.5), or PSUs. For PSU cost, bulk buying the "royale with cheese" package from finksy could probably get down to $200/unit shipped (maybe lower), and that package can power exactly 2.5 Avalon6 units. Call that 80 for the PSU.

Our total cost per miner and PSU @ 50 units purchased would be $1542.5 USD a unit.

I'm going to write a quick python script to crunch these numbers.

Knew I missed something ^^. Get back to us asap with your script :D

How do you guys want to do this reward wise? Do you want to build a "company" of sorts, pool all resources and rewards to buy more hardware etc?
Or do you want to split all costs and rewards according to how many miners you "own"?

Personally I want to grow this thing into something big, by pooling resources. I'm a firm believer in bitcoin. I'm not saying you can't combine the two tho, just want to know what you guys think.

Phil: I also believe the price would be higher at July, and much higher in the future.

I'm ready right now to contribute with 5 Avalon's at that price.



Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 09, 2015, 10:23:26 PM
Okay, I finished my little script.

Here's the source if anyone is interested in taking a look.

Code:
# This is written in python 3
# Feel free to use this in your own projects

def truncate(f, n):
    '''Truncates/pads a float f to n decimal places without rounding'''
    s = '{}'.format(f)
    if 'e' in s or 'E' in s:
        return '{0:.{1}f}'.format(f, n)
    i, p, d = s.partition('.')
    return '.'.join([i, (d+'0'*n)[:n]])

###################
# HARCODED VALUES #
###################
#Cost in USD of miner (grand total)
minerCost = 1542.5

#Revenue of miner $/day
minerRevenue = 10.21

#Power cost of miner $/day
minerPowerCost = 1.67

#this block should be mined on November 27th
startBlock = 385389

#this is my projected difficulty on the 27th
startDiff = 66500000000
 
#this is the starting % increase every two weeks
expectedDiffIncrease = 4.0

#this is the % change in difficulty increase every two weeks
diffIncreaseDelta = -3.0

breakeven = False
revenue = 0
daysElapsed = 0 #in days
currentBlock = startBlock
currentDiff = startDiff
print("Simulation start: \nDifficulty is {}. \nProfit is ${} per day.\nExpected difficulty increase is {}%, with future increases changing by {}%.".format(truncate(currentDiff, 2), truncate(minerRevenue - minerPowerCost, 2), truncate(expectedDiffIncrease, 2), truncate(diffIncreaseDelta, 2)))
while True:
#1 loop = 1 block
if (currentBlock % 2016 == 0):
currentDiff *= (100 + expectedDiffIncrease)/100
minerRevenue *= (100 - expectedDiffIncrease)/100
print("Difficulty is now {} (+{}%). Profit is now ${} per day".format(truncate(currentDiff, 2), truncate(expectedDiffIncrease, 2), truncate(minerRevenue - minerPowerCost, 2)))
expectedDiffIncrease *= (100 + diffIncreaseDelta)/100

if (currentBlock == 420000):
minerRevenue /= 2
print("The block reward has halved. Profit is now ${} per day".format(truncate(minerRevenue - minerPowerCost, 2)))

if (minerRevenue - minerPowerCost <= 0):
print("Miner is no longer profitable. Ending simulation\n")
break

if (currentBlock - startBlock) % int((144*(100+expectedDiffIncrease)/100)//1) == 0: #calculates real time, note that this accounts for less time between blocks when diff spikes
daysElapsed += 1

if currentBlock == 450000:
print("End of simulation reached.\n")
break

if (revenue > minerCost and breakeven == False):
print("BREAK EVEN REACHED ON DAY {}!".format(daysElapsed))
breakeven = True #hell yes


revenue += minerRevenue/24/6 - minerPowerCost/24/6
currentBlock += 1

print("{} days have elapsed.".format(daysElapsed))
print("Your total revenue after hosting costs: {}".format(truncate(revenue,2)))
print("Your net gain/loss: ${}".format(truncate(revenue-minerCost,2)))

Here's the results, guessing an initial 4.0% increase every 2016 blocks. This assumes that the difficulty increase changes by -3% every adjustment.
Code:
Simulation start: 
Difficulty is 66500000000.00.
Profit is $8.54 per day.
Expected difficulty increase is 4.00%, with future increases changing by -3.00%.
Difficulty is now 69160000000.00 (+4.00%). Profit is now $8.13 per day
Difficulty is now 71843408000.00 (+3.88%). Profit is now $7.75 per day
Difficulty is now 74547306503.50 (+3.76%). Profit is now $7.39 per day
Difficulty is now 77268799058.20 (+3.65%). Profit is now $7.06 per day
Difficulty is now 80005019548.00 (+3.54%). Profit is now $6.75 per day
Difficulty is now 82753140848.50 (+3.43%). Profit is now $6.46 per day
Difficulty is now 85510382834.30 (+3.33%). Profit is now $6.19 per day
Difficulty is now 88274019729.60 (+3.23%). Profit is now $5.94 per day
Difficulty is now 91041386800.50 (+3.13%). Profit is now $5.70 per day
Difficulty is now 93809886395.30 (+3.04%). Profit is now $5.47 per day
Difficulty is now 96576993338.10 (+2.94%). Profit is now $5.26 per day
Difficulty is now 99340259691.70 (+2.86%). Profit is now $5.06 per day
Difficulty is now 102097318904.73 (+2.77%). Profit is now $4.88 per day
Difficulty is now 104845889362.98 (+2.69%). Profit is now $4.70 per day
Difficulty is now 107583777367.73 (+2.61%). Profit is now $4.53 per day
Difficulty is now 110308879565.73 (+2.53%). Profit is now $4.38 per day
Difficulty is now 113019184857.03 (+2.45%). Profit is now $4.23 per day
The block reward has halved. Profit is now $1.28 per day
Difficulty is now 115712775808.78 (+2.38%). Profit is now $1.21 per day
Difficulty is now 118387829603.62 (+2.31%). Profit is now $1.14 per day
Difficulty is now 121042618552.48 (+2.24%). Profit is now $1.08 per day
Difficulty is now 123675510201.35 (+2.17%). Profit is now $1.02 per day
Difficulty is now 126284967062.23 (+2.10%). Profit is now $0.96 per day
BREAK EVEN REACHED ON DAY 307!
Difficulty is now 128869545997.81 (+2.04%). Profit is now $0.91 per day
Difficulty is now 131427897289.49 (+1.98%). Profit is now $0.85 per day
Difficulty is now 133958763417.29 (+1.92%). Profit is now $0.81 per day
Difficulty is now 136460977579.81 (+1.86%). Profit is now $0.76 per day
Difficulty is now 138933461981.43 (+1.81%). Profit is now $0.72 per day
Difficulty is now 141375225912.73 (+1.75%). Profit is now $0.67 per day
Difficulty is now 143785363649.27 (+1.70%). Profit is now $0.63 per day
Difficulty is now 146163052192.63 (+1.65%). Profit is now $0.60 per day
Difficulty is now 148507548876.19 (+1.60%). Profit is now $0.56 per day
Difficulty is now 150818188857.25 (+1.55%). Profit is now $0.52 per day
End of simulation reached.

440 days have elapsed.
Your total revenue after hosting costs: 1641.04
Your net gain/loss: $98.54

My difficulty estimate is not very optimistic, although it's far from a worst case. We could do far better, or we could stand to lose money overall. And remember, this assumes a static BTC price, it could go anywhere.

Quote
How do you guys want to do this reward wise? Do you want to build a "company" of sorts, pool all resources and rewards to buy more hardware etc?
Or do you want to split all costs and rewards according to how many miners you "own"?

I want this project to have as little risk of scam as possible. That's why I've proposed multisig to collect funds, and after purchasing the miners never holding funds again. Using Kano's CKPool we can pay out mining revenue directly to multiple recipients.

Essentially, all we're doing is a group buy and group hosting. Simple!


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: carlosmnk on November 09, 2015, 11:14:37 PM

Quote
How do you guys want to do this reward wise? Do you want to build a "company" of sorts, pool all resources and rewards to buy more hardware etc?
Or do you want to split all costs and rewards according to how many miners you "own"?

I want this project to have as little risk of scam as possible. That's why I've proposed multisig to collect funds, and after purchasing the miners never holding funds again. Using Kano's CKPool we can pay out mining revenue directly to multiple recipients.

Essentially, all we're doing is a group buy and group hosting. Simple!


Well, i think there is not the same buy a % of an SP-50 than 30 avalon-6. In the first case, we need to make a system to do multiple recipients. Buying 30 avalon-6 we can do it simple:

1.- We must buy entire miners (1, 2, 3, 5). With that we can hash with it where we want (and change it every time we want). And at the end, we can assign 1 miner to every one. And the miners configuration could be individually.
2.- We pay the miners as a group, so every one pay an escrow (the same) to make the deal with de seller. This escrow pay the seller the entire purchuase.
3.- We can buy the PSU as a group, and pay for them as a service. At the end, we can sell them as a group. As before we can pay an escrow to make the PSU deal.
4.- We pay the hosting as a group, so we do the same with the hosting fees. If we pay month by month, we can make the payments to the escrow, who make the last pay to the host.
5.- And finally, we can do more things if every one is happy...  ;D

What do you think?


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: torepia on November 09, 2015, 11:33:28 PM


I want this project to have as little risk of scam as possible. That's why I've proposed multisig to collect funds, and after purchasing the miners never holding funds again. Using Kano's CKPool we can pay out mining revenue directly to multiple recipients.

Essentially, all we're doing is a group buy and group hosting. Simple!

Sign me up, asap. :P GND sounds good tbh, but we should get the future electricity price decrease in writing. Or some kind og guarantee :D


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: dogie on November 10, 2015, 12:03:39 AM
What do you think about these numbers? Ofc there is some hidden costs.

[For newbies remember these are speculative simulations, they could turn out to be entirely wrong].


You've left 2.5% fee in, you could take that out and will actually make a sizeable difference.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 10, 2015, 02:36:00 AM
Well, i think there is not the same buy a % of an SP-50 than 30 avalon-6. In the first case, we need to make a system to do multiple recipients. Buying 30 avalon-6 we can do it simple:

1.- We must buy entire miners (1, 2, 3, 5). With that we can hash with it where we want (and change it every time we want). And at the end, we can assign 1 miner to every one. And the miners configuration could be individually.
2.- We pay the miners as a group, so every one pay an escrow (the same) to make the deal with de seller. This escrow pay the seller the entire purchuase.
3.- We can buy the PSU as a group, and pay for them as a service. At the end, we can sell them as a group. As before we can pay an escrow to make the PSU deal.
4.- We pay the hosting as a group, so we do the same with the hosting fees. If we pay month by month, we can make the payments to the escrow, who make the last pay to the host.
5.- And finally, we can do more things if every one is happy...  ;D

What do you think?

I like that way. Then we aren't even selling shares in some sort of entity, you will have control (and ownership) of your own miner. However, we shouldn't pay month to month for hosting, as that will drive our hosting rate pretty far up by a huge margin! I was thinking we all go in for a 6 month term, then we can see whoever wants to stick around or sell their hardware.

Instead of using an escrow agent like ognasty we could do 5/6 or 3/4 multisig with the largest reputable participants in the group buy holding the keys. We save the escrow fee that way.

Well, that's that then. I think we have this whole thing planned out. It looks like we have considerable interest in the plan as it stands now.

We still have a little bit of ground to cover before we make this thing happen:
  • Negotiate an actual cost for the PSUs.
  • Figure out who will hold keys. So far, I believe phillip and notlist have shown interest (correct me if I'm wrong), plus there's me. We'll all need to use the latest version of armory on a secure PC. Dogie, if you're interested, I'm sure we'd all like you to hold on to one. Anyone else feel free to step up and nominate yourself.
  • Do a test transaction or two with multisig just to get the hang of it (so we dont screw up and lose your money)
  • Confirm hosting rates with cryptoboreas.

And as for dogie's comment on projections: yes, we have very little idea of what's coming. Take it all with a grain of salt.

Note that actual mining revenue, even on 0% fee pplns, will only give you 98% of what you expect because of orphan blocks.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: allinvain on November 10, 2015, 03:01:28 AM
I agree that right now cryptoboreas is the best option pricewise right now. I'm pretty sure GND hasn't finished their datacenter expansion yet, which means their rates are still going to be quite a bit higher than CB.

On the other hand, great north data has a 24/7 onsite tech, something cryptoboreas doesn't have. If there's a problem, its likely that we will get our miners back up and running faster if we go with GND.

It really depends if you guys think its worth it or not.

That is definitely true, but it is something that we plan to have in the future. However, all our miners go on switched PDUs so if remote reboot is necessary that is an option. You guys can designate one guy to keep an eye on the gear and who will reboot gear when/if necessary. I do hope these Avalon6 miners are stable.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Searing on November 10, 2015, 06:58:05 AM

 So just to be clear on your proposal at least equip wise about say 1.5k to get a unit in this endeavor? I realize you are just trying to figure this out..but at least for this
amount I'm somewhere in the ballpark (if not at home base) :)

thanks just watching to see if I too want to play :)


edit: duh caught up on the thread have above answered...so say about 1600 usd and we get control of 1 miner ..paid out as a group per whatever schedule.....(some miners go bad ..but paid as a group?). So the total ball park coast for 6 months with hosting?

got the rest from the screens posted here etc

am I caught up now? and such? so...just sit on hands and wait for the announcement of go/no go more or less at this point in time?

(off to run numbers)






Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: torepia on November 10, 2015, 09:34:59 AM
What do you think about these numbers? Ofc there is some hidden costs.

[For newbies remember these are speculative simulations, they could turn out to be entirely wrong].


You've left 2.5% fee in, you could take that out and will actually make a sizeable difference.

I actually put it in, the default is 1%. I like to calc with Antpool's PPS fee as I feel this number is quite realistic. Don't have to deal with PPLNS luck variables in this calculation!


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Searing on November 10, 2015, 10:58:10 AM
Well my rough figures at approx 1600 USD a unit (1 unit) and the info from other screens on speed/watts/etc

Also assuming the 0.06 elec and the 5% difficulty and such on previous screens I get something like the below as a very rough idea ...

(prob wrong but here it is) NINE month ROI if this is anywhere close to correct...

https://i.imgur.com/Ln72K23.png


p.s. posted this to my Imgur page. Here is the link to my setup if interested. lostgonzo.imgur.com (http://lostgonzo.imgur.com) The KNC Jupiter 550gh unit on the
bottom shelf is off and used as a gravity assist device to keep my miner bench down :) The others are 2 Titan Miners running at 350mh Scrypt for LTC to BTC. Alas the last
of Home Mining for me when the Titans go to "Door Stop Status"

well I'm sure someone will find something off on the above for me to fix on this chart..again just rough and out there :)


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: torepia on November 10, 2015, 11:05:25 AM
Well, i think there is not the same buy a % of an SP-50 than 30 avalon-6. In the first case, we need to make a system to do multiple recipients. Buying 30 avalon-6 we can do it simple:

1.- We must buy entire miners (1, 2, 3, 5). With that we can hash with it where we want (and change it every time we want). And at the end, we can assign 1 miner to every one. And the miners configuration could be individually.
2.- We pay the miners as a group, so every one pay an escrow (the same) to make the deal with de seller. This escrow pay the seller the entire purchuase.
3.- We can buy the PSU as a group, and pay for them as a service. At the end, we can sell them as a group. As before we can pay an escrow to make the PSU deal.
4.- We pay the hosting as a group, so we do the same with the hosting fees. If we pay month by month, we can make the payments to the escrow, who make the last pay to the host.
5.- And finally, we can do more things if every one is happy...  ;D

What do you think?

I like that way. Then we aren't even selling shares in some sort of entity, you will have control (and ownership) of your own miner. However, we shouldn't pay month to month for hosting, as that will drive our hosting rate pretty far up by a huge margin! I was thinking we all go in for a 6 month term, then we can see whoever wants to stick around or sell their hardware.

Instead of using an escrow agent like ognasty we could do 5/6 or 3/4 multisig with the largest reputable participants in the group buy holding the keys. We save the escrow fee that way.

Well, that's that then. I think we have this whole thing planned out. It looks like we have considerable interest in the plan as it stands now.

We still have a little bit of ground to cover before we make this thing happen:
  • Negotiate an actual cost for the PSUs.
  • Figure out who will hold keys. So far, I believe phillip and notlist have shown interest (correct me if I'm wrong), plus there's me. We'll all need to use the latest version of armory on a secure PC. Dogie, if you're interested, I'm sure we'd all like you to hold on to one. Anyone else feel free to step up and nominate yourself.
  • Do a test transaction or two with multisig just to get the hang of it (so we dont screw up and lose your money)
  • Confirm hosting rates with cryptoboreas.

And as for dogie's comment on projections: yes, we have very little idea of what's coming. Take it all with a grain of salt.

Note that actual mining revenue, even on 0% fee pplns, will only give you 98% of what you expect because of orphan blocks.

I'm not quite sure what multi-sig is, but I guess it's transactions that requiers mutiple signatures to be considered signed?
If so, what happens when you get hit by a bus? Is the money gone? Or does it only need 5/6 or 3/4 signatures to be verified?
I wouldn't mind Phillip, notlisted, dogie and you to hold keys, but I would like to know who they are, so that I can find the key-holders if needed. (So I know where to send the SR hitman.) :P

I could also hold a key if needed, but it's not a big deal for me.

Lets get this ball rolling!

Edit:
Searing, sweet setup! :D
I'd say 9 months ROI is pretty 'accurate' with the numbers we have available today. But, who knows if we will see 10-15% diff increases or 5%. Or what the BTC price will be.
We should all be prepared to lose our money!


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: schwab on November 10, 2015, 11:30:51 AM
I'm just going to pop in since there is all the talk of ROI and individual payouts. I'm nobody, a lurker, a miner. So these are just thoughts from a semi outside perspective.

The idea that was behind this thread and the thread title are outstanding concepts. The idea of multi-sig fund management is an amazing concept, it starts to diverge when it becomes a group buy scenario. Group buying mining units, group buying hosting, escrow for purchase, a different escrow for hosting. It holds a lot of trust in certain individuals, unless this is all part of the OP post 4-6 multi-sig account as the escrow holders, but I see no mention of that specifically, perhaps it is just assumed.

The idea of a true mining co-op is astonishing. Incorporated as a mining firm, with eyes set on the future. Elected board members from across the world using multi-sig funds to conduct business on behalf of the co-op, with individual hash power as voters in the incorporated co-op business. Elected members donating time to the duties of the co-op to better every share holder, think secretary, treasurer, business manager.

Moving beyond individual ROI to the betterment and growth of the Co-Op and reinvestment of funds to expand, both in mining capacity and revenue streams. Building out or implementing blockchain related services (driveshare storj, micropayment systems, own datacenter/hosting).

Shares can be bought and sold, and include the voting rights, with additional expansions adding shares. Share holders would receive small profits from the additional sales and revenue on agreed upon time segments.

Voted upon bylaws and directives. A miniature bitcoin system with consensus, share holders deciding what is best to move the Co-Op further along, or flat out end and split revenue.

This is somewhat how my electric company operates, they have a semi monopoly on the area of course, but every user is a voting member of the co-op and extra profits are sent out every few years (it amounts to nothing $23 since 2006), but the larger users get a larger portion, and we all have voting rights at share holder meetings, and each have a vote on our board members.

I just think, if you are going to go for, go for. If you are putting your money into something just to get a few dollars off, that's thinking of the short game. If you are investing in yourselves, this technology, and the future there are many paths to choose. Starting a co-op that could become a payment processor for the future, a data center for the next generation, and at the same time increase revenue while cutting costs is a titillating idea.

It's late, I'm red-bulled up, I apologize.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Searing on November 10, 2015, 11:31:10 AM
Well, i think there is not the same buy a % of an SP-50 than 30 avalon-6. In the first case, we need to make a system to do multiple recipients. Buying 30 avalon-6 we can do it simple:

1.- We must buy entire miners (1, 2, 3, 5). With that we can hash with it where we want (and change it every time we want). And at the end, we can assign 1 miner to every one. And the miners configuration could be individually.
2.- We pay the miners as a group, so every one pay an escrow (the same) to make the deal with de seller. This escrow pay the seller the entire purchuase.
3.- We can buy the PSU as a group, and pay for them as a service. At the end, we can sell them as a group. As before we can pay an escrow to make the PSU deal.
4.- We pay the hosting as a group, so we do the same with the hosting fees. If we pay month by month, we can make the payments to the escrow, who make the last pay to the host.
5.- And finally, we can do more things if every one is happy...  ;D

What do you think?

I like that way. Then we aren't even selling shares in some sort of entity, you will have control (and ownership) of your own miner. However, we shouldn't pay month to month for hosting, as that will drive our hosting rate pretty far up by a huge margin! I was thinking we all go in for a 6 month term, then we can see whoever wants to stick around or sell their hardware.

Instead of using an escrow agent like ognasty we could do 5/6 or 3/4 multisig with the largest reputable participants in the group buy holding the keys. We save the escrow fee that way.

Well, that's that then. I think we have this whole thing planned out. It looks like we have considerable interest in the plan as it stands now.

We still have a little bit of ground to cover before we make this thing happen:
  • Negotiate an actual cost for the PSUs.
  • Figure out who will hold keys. So far, I believe phillip and notlist have shown interest (correct me if I'm wrong), plus there's me. We'll all need to use the latest version of armory on a secure PC. Dogie, if you're interested, I'm sure we'd all like you to hold on to one. Anyone else feel free to step up and nominate yourself.
  • Do a test transaction or two with multisig just to get the hang of it (so we dont screw up and lose your money)
  • Confirm hosting rates with cryptoboreas.

And as for dogie's comment on projections: yes, we have very little idea of what's coming. Take it all with a grain of salt.

Note that actual mining revenue, even on 0% fee pplns, will only give you 98% of what you expect because of orphan blocks.

I'm not quite sure what multi-sig is, but I guess it's transactions that requiers mutiple signatures to be considered signed?
If so, what happens when you get hit by a bus? Is the money gone? Or does it only need 5/6 or 3/4 signatures to be verified?
I wouldn't mind Phillip, notlisted, dogie and you to hold keys, but I would like to know who they are, so that I can find the key-holders if needed. (So I know where to send the SR hitman.) :P

I could also hold a key if needed, but it's not a big deal for me.

Lets get this ball rolling!

Edit:
Searing, sweet setup! :D
I'd say 9 months ROI is pretty 'accurate' with the numbers we have available today. But, who knows if we will see 10-15% diff increases or 5%. Or what the BTC price will be.
We should all be prepared to lose our money!


Yeah all I know is ..if I want any access to a MINER virtual only via GUI or /ssh or whatever it will have to be hosted. At 13c kwh where I'm at that boat don't float for sha-256 and BTC. It does float for Scrypt yet. Truth be told a person (I'm talking blasphemy here ....turn away from reading if you think BTC is beyond reproach from and only thing worth mining) ..anyway ....truth be told this COULD (don't know) work better with scrypt miners...but the only LEGIT ones I've heard about ..the price point don't work and they are 6 months away....although I hope they are correct..because IF such scrypt miners did work 6 months from now ..it would be Quite! the btc price pop imho (over $500) so the only 'legit' game in town would probably be this project...

But again 1600 usd with everything hosting etc at 0.06c kwh added Jan 2016 timeline....and what 9 month ROI..well ..doing so you'd kinda HAVE to be counting on BTC price above say $450 by that point imho....so the odds are still long on this ..but hey ...good to do the figures to know for sure......

anyway how i see it at this mangled no info of any reliability at this time :)




Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: MrBitcoinMiner on November 10, 2015, 11:35:22 AM
That is definitely true, but it is something that we plan to have in the future. However, all our miners go on switched PDUs so if remote reboot is necessary that is an option. You guys can designate one guy to keep an eye on the gear and who will reboot gear when/if necessary. I do hope these Avalon6 miners are stable.


In general I am all for us securing the best hosting rate but there are other considerations as well.

I am very concerned that this cryptoboreas company has come out of nowhere and appears to have no customers except this carlos guy. Assuming their operation is legit, the fact that they are doing this all with nobody on site makes me worry. Switched PDUs are a great idea if a machine needs to be rebooted. What if a fan burns out or a machine stops responding to reboots? Do we just suffer 100% downtime until allinvain has enough time to make the trek to his facility?

What's also concerning is that although he claims to run the place remotely he apparently doesn't even have that part of the mine operating yet and is looking for someone who knows how to program to build him a system to run a mine remotely.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1171705.120

So from what I can see, GND is an established hoster who have been around for a while with good prices and no customer complaints. Cryptoboreas is only a month or two old and also offers good prices but potentially at a massive service cost.

The CB price is good but requires 6 months of prepayment. I bet if we approached GND with CB's price they would match it or come pretty close so we can take advantage of the best price AND the best service. If we can get some assurances CB is actually legit I would really consider going with them if their price is significantly better than GNDs but I don't think the CB risk is worth taking if it's only saving us a buck or two a kw.

I also think torepia has a good idea about getting everything in writing.

I am fine with philipma and dogie having the keys since they are long-established members with good reputations. Thank you also to armedmilitia for doing all the legwork to put this deal together and I look forward to seeing final pricing.




Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Searing on November 10, 2015, 11:52:03 AM
I'm just going to pop in since there is all the talk of ROI and individual payouts. I'm nobody, a lurker, a miner. So these are just thoughts from a semi outside perspective.

The idea that was behind this thread and the thread title are outstanding concepts. The idea of multi-sig fund management is an amazing concept, it starts to diverge when it becomes a group buy scenario. Group buying mining units, group buying hosting, escrow for purchase, a different escrow for hosting. It holds a lot of trust in certain individuals, unless this is all part of the OP post 4-6 multi-sig account as the escrow holders, but I see no mention of that specifically, perhaps it is just assumed.

The idea of a true mining co-op is astonishing. Incorporated as a mining firm, with eyes set on the future. Elected board members from across the world using multi-sig funds to conduct business on behalf of the co-op, with individual hash power as voters in the incorporated co-op business. Elected members donating time to the duties of the co-op to better every share holder, think secretary, treasurer, business manager.

Moving beyond individual ROI to the betterment and growth of the Co-Op and reinvestment of funds to expand, both in mining capacity and revenue streams. Building out or implementing blockchain related services (driveshare storj, micropayment systems, own datacenter/hosting).

Shares can be bought and sold, and include the voting rights, with additional expansions adding shares. Share holders would receive small profits from the additional sales and revenue on agreed upon time segments.

Voted upon bylaws and directives. A miniature bitcoin system with consensus, share holders deciding what is best to move the Co-Op further along, or flat out end and split revenue.

This is somewhat how my electric company operates, they have a semi monopoly on the area of course, but every user is a voting member of the co-op and extra profits are sent out every few years (it amounts to nothing $23 since 2006), but the larger users get a larger portion, and we all have voting rights at share holder meetings, and each have a vote on our board members.

I just think, if you are going to go for, go for. If you are putting your money into something just to get a few dollars off, that's thinking of the short game. If you are investing in yourselves, this technology, and the future there are many paths to choose. Starting a co-op that could become a payment processor for the future, a data center for the next generation, and at the same time increase revenue while cutting costs is a titillating idea.

It's late, I'm red-bulled up, I apologize.

Yeah I can deal with your concepts above also. My calcs were just 'napkin jottings'. But yeah there is more to such a notion then 'just' ROI. So yes I agree. Then again I always thought that my home miner operation would have been a hell of a lot more fun with 4 or more folk locally. It could be bigger (better toys)...less risk (better toys)....and someone to shoot the shit with about this crypto stuff...(did I mention better toys) ....I ran a big bbs game server Lost Gonzo BBS with 4 sysops..was a lot of fun..(dos etc) when one of the Sysops cracked in frustration and tried to toss the server off the roof we could talk him down...heh a lot of fun. Alas only 'foo...' er I mean 'enlightened type' to do this in my area. I know my friends have planned an 'intervention' when they know bitcoin will go all 'ponzi' and have to 'de-program me as a dang btc moonie" ...alas I keep making money and they are confused (their heart is in the right place .but still lonely in crypto land around here)

So yeah your scenario works if for no other reason at least it is a group effort even if 'virtual' in nature....and hell I can still drink beer on my couch with you all via Skype..so wtf it probably will work if BTC price and difficulty let the kite get off the ground :)

I've done everything WRONG since being a newbie in 2013 and still as of now am $11.5k usd ahead of last month with the price pop and still mining (setup: lostgonzo.imgur.com) so wtf newbie stupid and clueless seems to have worked so far. I'm ripe for a 'virtual' endeavor. Assuming we can get all the ducks in a row that is.

Side note: I'm a legal miner in the USA (don't ask it is a long story) but I probably can get whatever eguip I am responsible for at 25% equip deduction...assuming you run the biz at a profit for 5 years (I'll be at 4 in 2016) ...with (last I looked) 1/2 the equip depreciation off taxes the first year..so folk MAY want to look at how legit they want to run this.me I have NO choice...but mining ..even virtually these last 2 years would help me lots ..from the last 3 years...so may be worth the risk in my case just for the bona fides of such with the IRS showing I'm in it for the long haul all 5 years etc..anyway for those who may also be in a similar boat.caught in the 2013 IRS Guidelines (my bank had an error said i sent $99k (i sent $10k) overseas....to KNC....got all up in the air ..(btc was evil in 2013) i filed just in case...pointed out bank error....the bank tried to screw me saying i was not a legit biz...had the CPA biz modified tax forms to shut them down...figured they do that to save face ..was correct..so far have paid NO taxes due to 2014 lag and equip i got (kinda went overboard on equip) :)

anyway..thus WHY I'm a legal miner the rest of you run for the hills thou..I got caught (again seems to all gonna work out even steven thru luck thou...so can't complain...knock wood...er I mean $$$ to tax man wise a wash)..but the rest of you head for the hills (unless this mining co-op may also work for you legal in my manner)

anyway tangled webs ..but this co-op may serve my needs better then most anything else for miners etc and showing IRS I still be legit into 2017.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: MrBitcoinMiner on November 10, 2015, 12:08:35 PM
Sorry I made a mistake in my earlier post. I accidentally linked back to this very thread when I was trying to link to the thread in which allinvain is looking for someone to write software to allow him to run CB remotely.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1239603



Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: allinvain on November 10, 2015, 01:27:47 PM
In general I am all for us securing the best hosting rate but there are other considerations as well.

I am very concerned that this cryptoboreas company has come out of nowhere and appears to have no customers except this carlos guy. Assuming their operation is legit, the fact that they are doing this all with nobody on site makes me worry. Switched PDUs are a great idea if a machine needs to be rebooted. What if a fan burns out or a machine stops responding to reboots? Do we just suffer 100% downtime until allinvain has enough time to make the trek to his facility?

What's also concerning is that although he claims to run the place remotely he apparently doesn't even have that part of the mine operating yet and is looking for someone who knows how to program to build him a system to run a mine remotely.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1171705.120

So from what I can see, GND is an established hoster who have been around for a while with good prices and no customer complaints. Cryptoboreas is only a month or two old and also offers good prices but potentially at a massive service cost.

The CB price is good but requires 6 months of prepayment. I bet if we approached GND with CB's price they would match it or come pretty close so we can take advantage of the best price AND the best service. If we can get some assurances CB is actually legit I would really consider going with them if their price is significantly better than GNDs but I don't think the CB risk is worth taking if it's only saving us a buck or two a kw.

I also think torepia has a good idea about getting everything in writing.

I am fine with philipma and dogie having the keys since they are long-established members with good reputations. Thank you also to armedmilitia for doing all the legwork to put this deal together and I look forward to seeing final pricing.

We have been around for a while - far more than a month or two. We have customers other than "this carlos guy" but most of them are not active on this forum. 

The system which we're seeking is to automate the management process not to "run a mine remotely." The less we have to do manually the more time we have to sip margaritas on a sandy beach! :)

The 6 month price does require pre-payment, but I'm sure we can offer that on a shorter 3 month pre-paid term if you're really nice to us :) If you're super nice and bring in a lot of killowatts we may even do more! We like to build long mutually beneficial and stable relationships with serious miners and we will do everything possible to keep said miners happy.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: allinvain on November 10, 2015, 01:29:45 PM
Sorry I made a mistake in my earlier post. I accidentally linked back to this very thread when I was trying to link to the thread in which allinvain is looking for someone to write software to allow him to run CB remotely.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1239603



Btw, I hope you do realize that it's not just me doing this. It's not like I put this facility together via remote control. You linking to that thread is irrelevant to the scope of this thread.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 10, 2015, 01:56:16 PM
(massive dump of responses inbound)

edit: duh caught up on the thread have above answered...so say about 1600 usd and we get control of 1 miner ..paid out as a group per whatever schedule.....(some miners go bad ..but paid as a group?). So the total ball park coast for 6 months with hosting?

1.059KW @ 65 CAD/KW works out to $68.84 CAD/MO ($51.89 USD), or $311.34 for the 6 month term. We might be able to do better on that hosting rate depending on qty. It also seems like we can do a 3 month term at the same rate, so $155.67.

I'm not quite sure what multi-sig is, but I guess it's transactions that requiers mutiple signatures to be considered signed?
If so, what happens when you get hit by a bus? Is the money gone? Or does it only need 5/6 or 3/4 signatures to be verified?
I wouldn't mind Phillip, notlisted, dogie and you to hold keys, but I would like to know who they are, so that I can find the key-holders if needed. (So I know where to send the SR hitman.) :P
There's nothing like some casual death threats to know you're on bitcointalk.  :)

I'm sure there are plenty of forum members who know who I am and where I live. I purchase hardware frequently on bitcointalk (pretty extensive trading history), so all the people who have shipped to me know my name and address. No way I'm sharing that in public though. Same goes for philip, dogie, and (probably) notlist. Valkir has organized a small group buy in the past and is interested, so I figure he could hold a key too.

As for how the multisig works--we'll be using armory lockbox. When I say 5/6 multisig, it requires only 5 of the 6 key holders to sign any given transaction.

I just think, if you are going to go for, go for. If you are putting your money into something just to get a few dollars off, that's thinking of the short game. If you are investing in yourselves, this technology, and the future there are many paths to choose. Starting a co-op that could become a payment processor for the future, a data center for the next generation, and at the same time increase revenue while cutting costs is a titillating idea.

Woaaah there! I want to keep this as simple as possible. The goal for the purchase of Avalon6s is not just to save a few bucks, its to establish a viable structure for future buys--in particular the SP50 when that comes up for general sale. But the end goal is to save quite a few bucks, make ROI easier for small miners (including me!), and that's pretty much it.

That is definitely true, but it is something that we plan to have in the future. However, all our miners go on switched PDUs so if remote reboot is necessary that is an option. You guys can designate one guy to keep an eye on the gear and who will reboot gear when/if necessary. I do hope these Avalon6 miners are stable.

I am very concerned that this cryptoboreas company has come out of nowhere and appears to have no customers except this carlos guy. Assuming their operation is legit, the fact that they are doing this all with nobody on site makes me worry. Switched PDUs are a great idea if a machine needs to be rebooted. What if a fan burns out or a machine stops responding to reboots? Do we just suffer 100% downtime until allinvain has enough time to make the trek to his facility?

I also think torepia has a good idea about getting everything in writing.

I am fine with philipma and dogie having the keys since they are long-established members with good reputations. Thank you also to armedmilitia for doing all the legwork to put this deal together and I look forward to seeing final pricing.

As for the fan burning out concern--yes, that's true. Is it worth the cost of a faster response time? I'm not sure, since as of right now gnd is undercut by far--I think we'd recoup any losses from downtime because we're paying much less for hosting. Once again, for future buys we can always revisit GND--they should have their datacenter expanded by then.

And you're welcome! I feel that warm fuzzy feeling of gratitude.

As a side note, I just got an email from bitmain last night:
Quote
Good morning [my name],

Unfortunately we do not offer any discounts for orders of fewer than 100 units. For 100 units of the S7, we are able to offer a 0.5% discount on the listed price.

The checkout page of our website includes a shipping cost calculator, which will provide you with the exact cost of shipping. The total cost depends on a few different factors, so it's difficult for me to give you an exact quote.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Best,
Jacob
A 0.5% bulk discount on over 100 units.  ::)


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: klondike_bar on November 10, 2015, 03:17:37 PM
Was asked if I mind being a multisig key holder, and am okay with that. I think having more people improves the security and reliability of multisig.

Also, I would not suggest m-1/m (ie:5/6) because only two points of failure are needed, like one lost key and one AFK keyholder. 4/6 or 6/9 provide better distribution and simplify the act of having enough people act together when fund movement is necessary.

Still on the fence over the cost of hash power. 1btc/th is a lot better than before, but another 10-20% bitcoin price movement or competition from sptech/lketc/sidehack/etc could bring prices down <0.8btc/TH


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 10, 2015, 03:38:33 PM
Was asked if I mind being a multisig key holder, and am okay with that. I think having more people improves the security and reliability of multisig.

Also, I would not suggest m-1/m (ie:5/6) because only two points of failure are needed, like one lost key and one AFK keyholder. 4/6 or 6/9 provide better distribution and simplify the act of having enough people act together when fund movement is necessary.

Still on the fence over the cost of hash power. 1btc/th is a lot better than before, but another 10-20% bitcoin price movement or competition from sptech/lketc/sidehack/etc could bring prices down <0.8btc/TH

4/6 sounds fine to me. Does anyone have objections? So far we have myself, valkir, klondike, and possibly phillip on board.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: ATCkit on November 10, 2015, 04:03:00 PM
Was asked if I mind being a multisig key holder, and am okay with that. I think having more people improves the security and reliability of multisig.

Also, I would not suggest m-1/m (ie:5/6) because only two points of failure are needed, like one lost key and one AFK keyholder. 4/6 or 6/9 provide better distribution and simplify the act of having enough people act together when fund movement is necessary.

Still on the fence over the cost of hash power. 1btc/th is a lot better than before, but another 10-20% bitcoin price movement or competition from sptech/lketc/sidehack/etc could bring prices down <0.8btc/TH

4/6 sounds fine to me. Does anyone have objections? So far we have myself, valkir, klondike, and possibly phillip on board.

seems good.

Another alternative might be to simply "piggy back on the Get Hashing platform"..do something like this guy is doing:

https://forum.gethashing.com/t/abc-amalgabit-coin/4453
https://forum.gethashing.com/t/diversified-mining-token-dmt-formally-pm1/3957

I can see my assets and track my payouts here: https://www.coinprism.info/address/144ZmMmDtzeP6DjYWpxMhW3v1Y5xozydrT

The other cool thing is if i decide to sell my mining power, I can do it on GH Exchange which is part of the https://cloud.gethashing.com/

Get Hashing's platform will simplify your process and allow for complete transparency.

The only downside is they may not let you use it for your Group Buy as it competes with theirs - ie: GHX.

EDIT: Recent article about Get Hashing: http://insidebitcoins.com/news/gethashing-introducing-a-new-concept-for-cloud-mining/35447


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: MrBitcoinMiner on November 10, 2015, 04:32:52 PM
We have been around for a while - far more than a month or two. 

From what I read you used to run miners from your home but it is only in the last couple of months that you created cryptoboreas to be a real hosting company instead of your own personal mine. I am sorry if I misunderstood.

You linking to that thread is irrelevant to the scope of this thread.

How is it not relevant? We are discussing a group buy and where to host the miners. If I participate in this GB I will want the best deal for hosting. Since you are only now looking for someone to design your mine software that suggests your operation is still in its infancy. You can call it irrelevant if you want but I (and I think many others here) are not just interested in hosting price only but all other factors such as going with a well established host vs one that is just starting up or going with a host with people on site and a fast response vs a site that sits empty 99% of the time and requires someone to make a special trip.

As for the fan burning out concern--yes, that's true. Is it worth the cost of a faster response time? I'm not sure, since as of right now gnd is undercut by far--I think we'd recoup any losses from downtime because we're paying much less for hosting. Once again, for future buys we can always revisit GND--they should have their datacenter expanded by then.

I have only operated a couple of miners ever but in my experience it is not uncommon to encounter problems that a reboot doesn't solve. This depends on the equipment as well of course as some manufacturers make more reliable machines than others.

When you say GND is undercut does that mean you spoke with your contact again recently? From what I read on here it looks like they offer very similar pricing to CB except that in order to get good rates with CB you need to prepay months in advance. Did you get an updated quote from GND for 6 months prepayment? Did they refuse to match or come close to the CB price? If they are asking too much money then I would not be interested in using them but if GND and CB are competing with each other we could let them fight each other to see who will give us the best price until one of them gives up.

If GND matched CB's price, would CB drop their price further and give us an even better deal?


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: philipma1957 on November 10, 2015, 04:42:43 PM
Was asked if I mind being a multisig key holder, and am okay with that. I think having more people improves the security and reliability of multisig.

Also, I would not suggest m-1/m (ie:5/6) because only two points of failure are needed, like one lost key and one AFK keyholder. 4/6 or 6/9 provide better distribution and simplify the act of having enough people act together when fund movement is necessary.

Still on the fence over the cost of hash power. 1btc/th is a lot better than before, but another 10-20% bitcoin price movement or competition from sptech/lketc/sidehack/etc could bring prices down <0.8btc/TH

4/6 sounds fine to me. Does anyone have objections? So far we have myself, valkir, klondike, and possibly phillip on board.

I see problems with 4 of 6 or 6 of 9

I also see the problem with 5 of 6

how about two sets of 3  each at 2 of 3?

follow  this logic:
 at  5 of six if two people are offline or worse yet have crashed coins could be lost or delayed.
at 4 of 6   armedmilitia and I  can't freeze a transaction and 4 others could rob us.

 worse yet with 6 of 9.  armed militia myself and valkir can not freeze out the other six if they go rouge.

with two sets of 3  
 all different people
  each set at 2 of 3
 coins could be safer and worst case only half lost vs all lost.  I am going to try to download armory via windows 10 and see what happens.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: spiccioli on November 10, 2015, 05:11:50 PM
A 0.5% bulk discount on over 100 units.  ::)

I've been lurking for a while and this urges me to add my voice here :)

Avalon6 and BitMain's S7 are overpriced, too much, they're actually priced for 2-3c/kWh electricity.

I mean, BitMain in China does not have access to such cheap electricity (I don't have any proof, just long reads here about cheapest electricity in China) so they have to be sure that nobody can earn more than themselves when selling an S7.

BTW, they sell it on Hashnest as well, so Hashnest's price is a little lower since you're paying .10c/kWh there.

What we should find, IMHO, is cheap electricity, like .05c or .04c and a bunch of second hand S5s or SP20s, which are overpriced as well (from the WTS offers I see here on bitcointalk), but not as much as a new S7 and should possibly ROI no further than April next year and be able to be marginally profitable (thanks to cheap electricity) beyond next halving.

Spending 1600 USD/unit now to earn 98 USD 400 or more days from now... well, is not that thrilling as a proposition, not to mention that a single failing unit wipes out the earnings of 16 more units.

spiccioli


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: philipma1957 on November 10, 2015, 05:46:00 PM
A 0.5% bulk discount on over 100 units.  ::)

I've been lurking for a while and this urges me to add my voice here :)

Avalon6 and BitMain's S7 are overpriced, too much, they're actually priced for 2-3c/kWh electricity.

I mean, BitMain in China does not have access to such cheap electricity (I don't have any proof, just long reads here about cheapest electricity in China) so they have to be sure that nobody can earn more than themselves when selling an S7.

BTW, they sell it on Hashnest as well, so Hashnest's price is a little lower since you're paying .10c/kWh there.

What we should find, IMHO, is cheap electricity, like .05c or .04c and a bunch of second hand S5s or SP20s, which are overpriced as well (from the WTS offers I see here on bitcointalk), but not as much as a new S7 and should possibly ROI no further than April next year and be able to be marginally profitable (thanks to cheap electricity) beyond next halving.

Spending 1600 USD/unit now to earn 98 USD 400 or more days from now... well, is not that thrilling as a proposition, not to mention that a single failing unit wipes out the earnings of 16 more units.

spiccioli

I have my doubts for this project. For a lot of reasons.  
miner prices are one issue.
I am nervous about  data center
I am nervous about getting miners from avalon.
I am nervous about coin security.

Lastly I am a known quality many people on this site know my home address.  If this goes sideways I can see people knocking on my door.

I would be fine with that if I had more control ,

but  I don't  and I do not like the idea of  being responsible for 50 Avalon 6's or 65k usd. That are mining in another country 1000 plus miles from my house.

I am going to bail on this at the key level.

If I do anything at all maybe I will buy 1 avalon 6 and contribute that way as a simple miner.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 10, 2015, 05:51:29 PM
I totally get it, there's lots of potential for things to go sideways.
Thanks for your interest though.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: schwab on November 10, 2015, 06:03:22 PM

I just think, if you are going to go for, go for. If you are putting your money into something just to get a few dollars off, that's thinking of the short game. If you are investing in yourselves, this technology, and the future there are many paths to choose. Starting a co-op that could become a payment processor for the future, a data center for the next generation, and at the same time increase revenue while cutting costs is a titillating idea.

Woaaah there! I want to keep this as simple as possible. The goal for the purchase of Avalon6s is not just to save a few bucks, its to establish a viable structure for future buys--in particular the SP50 when that comes up for general sale. But the end goal is to save quite a few bucks, make ROI easier for small miners (including me!), and that's pretty much it.


You are essential doing it, except without the legal backing for recourse against potential problems and clear definitions of what happens next. Currently this is actually a more convoluted way to accomplish the goal with less recourse/assurances should problems occur sooner or later.

Phillip mentions some the problems that could arise with multi-sig funds, those are unavoidable at present set up. These multi-sig holders are basically the elected board in a legal business venture/co-op set up. Though it is being based here, by only a few people with mere interest in the group buy and no firm commitments or deposits.

There's talk about what comes after the prepaid period, or the determined period of time of mining, selling miners off or renewing contract. This is the share voting, except without clear instructions, rules, or alternatives to what if risk scenarios.

What if enough people want to cash out, pushing the remaining group buyers that want to continue on to do so without the discounts already in place. The ability to buy/sell shares helps eliminate this threat to those that would continue on with the group, should a significant number choose to cash out and sell.

Then there are the legal ramifications. What if someone runs off with the money, is there only internet posts and witch hunting/doxxing to try and figure out where each user's money went. Having a clear structure with the details needed to be a trustee/board member of an incorporation help clarify the individual(s) accountable in case there is theft or mismanagement.

What if it all goes broke, GND/CB burn to the ground or disconnect and run off ala FriedCat. Would there then be multiple suits brought out by individuals at each their own cost or legal fees?

If the true goal is to allow lower costs and higher profits with increase in ROI, there are still plenty of legal ways to accomplish this outside of gentlemen's agreements via web boards. At the estimates mentioned, it is handling initially around ~>$60,000 of users money to provide a stable set up, and a system to be used for future purchases. Everything is going the right way but without the legal backing if anything should ever go wrong or into disarray.

  • Multi-Sig Holders - Board of Trustees/Board of Directors
  • Miners/Buyers - Share Holders voting on future of the group
  • Hosting - Contracted signatory in charge of use and upkeep of equipment
  • Web Board Messages - Voted on by-laws the Co-Op is held accountable to.Better the interests' of share holders with clear definitions

Everyone interested in this buy, needs to think about the risks involved and the futures at stake here in the beginning, before a snowball is set in place.

*edit a couple of fuckery wording


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: philipma1957 on November 10, 2015, 06:37:07 PM

I just think, if you are going to go for, go for. If you are putting your money into something just to get a few dollars off, that's thinking of the short game. If you are investing in yourselves, this technology, and the future there are many paths to choose. Starting a co-op that could become a payment processor for the future, a data center for the next generation, and at the same time increase revenue while cutting costs is a titillating idea.

Woaaah there! I want to keep this as simple as possible. The goal for the purchase of Avalon6s is not just to save a few bucks, its to establish a viable structure for future buys--in particular the SP50 when that comes up for general sale. But the end goal is to save quite a few bucks, make ROI easier for small miners (including me!), and that's pretty much it.


You are essential doing it, except without the legal backing for recourse against potential problems and clear definitions of what happens next. Currently this is actually a more convoluted way to accomplish the goal with less recourse/assurances should problems occur sooner or later.

Phillip mentions some the problems that could arise with multi-sig funds, those are unavoidable at present set up. These multi-sig holders are basically the elected board in a legal business venture/co-op set up. Though it is being based here, by only a few people with mere interest in the group buy and no firm commitments or deposits.

There's talk about what comes after the prepaid period, or the determined period of time of mining, selling miners off or renewing contract. This is the share voting, except without clear instructions, rules, or alternatives to what if risk scenarios.

What if enough people want to cash out, pushing the remaining group buyers that want to continue on to do so without the discounts already in place. The ability to buy/sell shares helps eliminate this threat to those that would continue on with the group, should a significant number choose to cash out and sell.

Then there are the legal ramifications. What if someone runs off with the money, is there only internet posts and witch hunting/doxxing to try and figure out where each user's money went. Having a clear structure with the details needed to be a trustee/board member of an incorporation help clarify the individual(s) accountable in case there is theft or mismanagement.

What if it all goes broke, GND/CB burn to the ground or disconnect and run off ala FriedCat. Would there then be multiple suits brought out by individuals at each their own cost or legal fees?

If the true goal is to allow lower costs and higher profits with increase in ROI, there are still plenty of legal ways to accomplish this outside of gentlemen's agreements via web boards. At the estimates mentioned, it is handling initially around ~>$60,000 of users money to provide a stable set up, and a system to be used for future purchases. Everything is going the right way but without the legal backing if anything should ever go wrong or into disarray.

  • Multi-Sig Holders - Board of Trustees/Board of Directors
  • Miners/Buyers - Share Holders voting on future of the group
  • Hosting - Contracted signatory in charge of use and upkeep of equipment
  • Web Board Messages - Voted on by-laws the Co-Op is held accountable to.Better the interests' of share holders with clear definitions

Everyone interested in this buy, needs to think about the risks involved and the futures at stake here in the beginning, before a snowball is set in place.

*edit a couple of fuckery wording


well put it  voices just about all my concerns.

I have seen a lot go wrong via the net when it comes to btc.

You missed 1 point we all go in and we whale we smoke we levitate as  coins go to 5000. even 10000.

do we sell? must we sell.  hey I am 58 I have an okay cash setup for me and my wife with out  any coins.

but if coins explode and go 10x fast I would want out.

this happened with dz coop  I begged the coop to sell ½ the gear when coins went to 1100 and we were in at 100 or 125.

I could not convince the group.  coop crashed and burned for many reasons about 5 months later.

We just saw coins go from 230 to 500 in under 60 days. 



Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 10, 2015, 06:48:10 PM

I just think, if you are going to go for, go for. If you are putting your money into something just to get a few dollars off, that's thinking of the short game. If you are investing in yourselves, this technology, and the future there are many paths to choose. Starting a co-op that could become a payment processor for the future, a data center for the next generation, and at the same time increase revenue while cutting costs is a titillating idea.

Woaaah there! I want to keep this as simple as possible. The goal for the purchase of Avalon6s is not just to save a few bucks, its to establish a viable structure for future buys--in particular the SP50 when that comes up for general sale. But the end goal is to save quite a few bucks, make ROI easier for small miners (including me!), and that's pretty much it.


You are essential doing it, except without the legal backing for recourse against potential problems and clear definitions of what happens next. Currently this is actually a more convoluted way to accomplish the goal with less recourse/assurances should problems occur sooner or later.

Phillip mentions some the problems that could arise with multi-sig funds, those are unavoidable at present set up. These multi-sig holders are basically the elected board in a legal business venture/co-op set up. Though it is being based here, by only a few people with mere interest in the group buy and no firm commitments or deposits.

There's talk about what comes after the prepaid period, or the determined period of time of mining, selling miners off or renewing contract. This is the share voting, except without clear instructions, rules, or alternatives to what if risk scenarios.

What if enough people want to cash out, pushing the remaining group buyers that want to continue on to do so without the discounts already in place. The ability to buy/sell shares helps eliminate this threat to those that would continue on with the group, should a significant number choose to cash out and sell.

Then there are the legal ramifications. What if someone runs off with the money, is there only internet posts and witch hunting/doxxing to try and figure out where each user's money went. Having a clear structure with the details needed to be a trustee/board member of an incorporation help clarify the individual(s) accountable in case there is theft or mismanagement.

What if it all goes broke, GND/CB burn to the ground or disconnect and run off ala FriedCat. Would there then be multiple suits brought out by individuals at each their own cost or legal fees?

If the true goal is to allow lower costs and higher profits with increase in ROI, there are still plenty of legal ways to accomplish this outside of gentlemen's agreements via web boards. At the estimates mentioned, it is handling initially around ~>$60,000 of users money to provide a stable set up, and a system to be used for future purchases. Everything is going the right way but without the legal backing if anything should ever go wrong or into disarray.

  • Multi-Sig Holders - Board of Trustees/Board of Directors
  • Miners/Buyers - Share Holders voting on future of the group
  • Hosting - Contracted signatory in charge of use and upkeep of equipment
  • Web Board Messages - Voted on by-laws the Co-Op is held accountable to.Better the interests' of share holders with clear definitions

Everyone interested in this buy, needs to think about the risks involved and the futures at stake here in the beginning, before a snowball is set in place.

*edit a couple of fuckery wording

Phillip has a point with the multisig--the less people needed to sign off on a transaction, the better odds that a few people go rogue and take the funds. We need to be careful in choosing who holds keys.

You know what though--you're right. Doing this "informally" works totally fine, right up until something goes wrong. I wouldn't want this to spiral out of control.
If we were to form an actual cooperative, AFAIK members would have equal rights in voting regardless of investment. That probably won't work, because people with the largest shares will be underrepresented.

Now, my knowledge of corporations/cooperatives in Canada is limited, but I'm certain we'll be on the hook for taxes on income/incorporation fees. I've read that if we have less than 50 shareholders, we can avoid a lot of legal trouble with Canada's Securities Act (but I am not a lawyer!). We'll definitely need a lawyer to take a look at the articles of incorporation. This stuff is expensive and takes time. I need to sleep on this, and think of a plan going forward.

At a glance though, this seems like a web of legalese.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Finksy on November 10, 2015, 07:09:23 PM
Armed has contacted me about purchasing PSU's (the IBM 2880W PSU's) to power the Co-Op, I am going to be putting some bulk pricing together to operate the miners as I feel they are the most reliable/cost effective PSU's for medium-large scale at present.

Here are some of my thoughts on the Co-Op:

The biggest challenge here seems to be where to store the accumulated funds in between confirming commitment and the actual payment to the manufacturer.  Instead of organizing this as a Co-Op, why not just run it as a Group Buy?  If you wanted to keep it extremely simple, break "shares" down to 1 full Avalon6 (so that everyone that buys in owns that hardware, and after the committed hosting period individuals could make arrangements with the Data Center to return/rehost/sell the miner).

Shares would be valued at price of the miner + VAT/Duty + Shipping + PSU cost + X month pre-paid hosting fee.  After that hosting period is done, it would be up to the owner to re-commit to another group hosting timeframe or sell the miner and have the Hoster ship it/host it for someone else, or just have it returned to them.

As for the funds, you could simply ask for a down-payment as a reservation fee, and once you have all the commitments in place all the funds could be transferred individually to the manufacturer's wallet and the order could be made up/shipped out, similar to how RoadStress ran the SP20 Group Buy last Winter (small deposit left with RS, remaining balances were paid to SP-Tech individually and the SP-20's shipped to individuals.  In this case instead all miners would go to hosting facility).  You would specify a date range for commitment & initial deposit, and then a firm date to send the balance of funds to the manufacturer, otherwise deposit is forfeit and you are excluded from GB.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Finksy on November 10, 2015, 07:20:44 PM
Phillip has a point with the multisig--the less people needed to sign off on a transaction, the better odds that a few people go rogue and take the funds. We need to be careful in choosing who holds keys.

You know what though--you're right. Doing this "informally" works totally fine, right up until something goes wrong. I wouldn't want this to spiral out of control.
If we were to form an actual cooperative, AFAIK members would have equal rights in voting regardless of investment. That probably won't work, because people with the largest shares will be underrepresented.

Now, my knowledge of corporations/cooperatives in Canada is limited, but I'm certain we'll be on the hook for taxes on income/incorporation fees. I've read that if we have less than 50 shareholders, we can avoid a lot of legal trouble with Canada's Securities Act (but I am not a lawyer!). We'll definitely need a lawyer to take a look at the articles of incorporation. This stuff is expensive and takes time. I need to sleep on this, and think of a plan going forward.

At a glance though, this seems like a web of legalese.

I am a Canadian and my business is incorporated.  Getting articles of incorporation is in the $1,500-$2,000 CAD range and is very straight forward as far as I know, it can even be done individually online (whether or not that's prudent is another thing).  I do not know anything about < or > 50 shareholders, and the applicable laws however if the Corporation is controlled by non-resident shareholders, it is not considered a CCPC and there are different tax implications: http://www.taxspecialistgroup.ca/public/taxtips.asp?n=11-02&site=tsg

What I do not know is if "Transaction Verification Services" are considered an active form of income or investment income, the corporate tax rates here for each are considerably different.

The benefit to registering as a Canadian Corporation would be the corp would save the 5% GST charged for importing the miners here, and if I'm not mistaken the Corporation could claim back 5% of the hosting fee in GST; since no GST is charged in mining, it would be a full tax refund.

The issues are, as a non-CCPC there are no capital gains exemption (CCPC's are entitled to an $800,000 exemption on capital gains when selling their shares in the Corp.) And any income paid out by the corporation would be taxed AFTER corporate tax is paid (Canadians would get taxed as dividend income I believe, I'm not sure how Americans would be taxed).

For these reasons, a Group Buy where everyone is still an individual (with individual hardare using purchasing power together) would make more sense to me.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: notlist3d on November 10, 2015, 09:22:32 PM
Phillip has a point with the multisig--the less people needed to sign off on a transaction, the better odds that a few people go rogue and take the funds. We need to be careful in choosing who holds keys.

You know what though--you're right. Doing this "informally" works totally fine, right up until something goes wrong. I wouldn't want this to spiral out of control.
If we were to form an actual cooperative, AFAIK members would have equal rights in voting regardless of investment. That probably won't work, because people with the largest shares will be underrepresented.

Now, my knowledge of corporations/cooperatives in Canada is limited, but I'm certain we'll be on the hook for taxes on income/incorporation fees. I've read that if we have less than 50 shareholders, we can avoid a lot of legal trouble with Canada's Securities Act (but I am not a lawyer!). We'll definitely need a lawyer to take a look at the articles of incorporation. This stuff is expensive and takes time. I need to sleep on this, and think of a plan going forward.

At a glance though, this seems like a web of legalese.

I am a Canadian and my business is incorporated.  Getting articles of incorporation is in the $1,500-$2,000 CAD range and is very straight forward as far as I know, it can even be done individually online (whether or not that's prudent is another thing).  I do not know anything about < or > 50 shareholders, and the applicable laws however if the Corporation is controlled by non-resident shareholders, it is not considered a CCPC and there are different tax implications: http://www.taxspecialistgroup.ca/public/taxtips.asp?n=11-02&site=tsg

What I do not know is if "Transaction Verification Services" are considered an active form of income or investment income, the corporate tax rates here for each are considerably different.

The benefit to registering as a Canadian Corporation would be the corp would save the 5% GST charged for importing the miners here, and if I'm not mistaken the Corporation could claim back 5% of the hosting fee in GST; since no GST is charged in mining, it would be a full tax refund.

The issues are, as a non-CCPC there are no capital gains exemption (CCPC's are entitled to an $800,000 exemption on capital gains when selling their shares in the Corp.) And any income paid out by the corporation would be taxed AFTER corporate tax is paid (Canadians would get taxed as dividend income I believe, I'm not sure how Americans would be taxed).

For these reasons, a Group Buy where everyone is still an individual (with individual hardare using purchasing power together) would make more sense to me.

If you form a corporation would that not mean you would not be paying taxes on the mining operation?   If it's like a us Corporation it makes it a LOT less liability to be a officer/owner but there is double taxing.   Taxes for corporation and taxes for payments to it's people as well.

I can see why the top of the group would really want corporation to limit personal assets being touched.  But I think your opening yourself to a whole lot of costs.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 10, 2015, 09:49:17 PM
It looks that there are numerous legal and practical problems of joint ownership and joint custodialship of funds, and I think we can approach this better.

We can run the GB similar to the roadstress christmas GB. Everyone retains ownership of the miners (no corporation needed), the vast majority of funds are never held by me, and at the end of the hosting term they can do whatever the hell they want with em--although they have the option to renew hosting.

Here's the game plan:
  • I take a 0.06BTC (per miner) deposit from those committing to miners. If you back out you lose your deposit, if we don't make the MOQ then everyone gets their deposit back.
  • BlockC provides payment address, everyone pays for the miners.
  • At the same time, Finksy provides payment address, everyone pays for the PSUs.
  • Once miners arrive and are running at CryptoBoreas, Allinvain provides a single payment address and everyone pays for the hosting.
  • If someone doesn't pay for the hosting by a set due date, their hardware is seized to pay for the cost of hosting.
  • The buyers sign a message containing their username with the BTC address(s) they paid with.
Once hosting has been paid for, everyone gets their deposit back (except those who didn't pay at some stage).

I will sign the hosting agreement and will provide allinvain with your pool information so he isn't inundated with PMs. If you want pools changed, I will have remote access to the miners and will be able to do it for you in a jiffy.

Finksy PM'd me a full fee schedule of the PSUs, the prices are very good. I will post that when I make the official GB thread tomorrow.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: allinvain on November 10, 2015, 11:14:13 PM
I'd like to add that if you guys go with Finsky for PSUs you can save on shipping costs because a member of our team lives in Toronto, so he can just personally pickup the PSUs and we'll drive them up to Labrador free of charge. I would also recommend buying the necessary PSUs _before_ the miners ship, this way the PSUs are ready and waiting in Labrador.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 10, 2015, 11:26:50 PM
I'd like to add that if you guys go with Finsky for PSUs you can save on shipping costs because a member of our team lives in Toronto, so he can just personally pickup the PSUs and we'll drive them up to Labrador free of charge. I would also recommend buying the necessary PSUs _before_ the miners ship, this way the PSUs are ready and waiting in Labrador.

Good idea there. I'll send finksy a message about that.

I just got off the phone with blockC. They've underclocked the units to 3.5TH/s pending a firmware update from Avalon (same efficiency). They expect that there will be new firmware in 5 weeks which should get them back to 3.65, but in the meantime they've lowered their price accordingly.

I'll be opening this GB tomorrow to collect deposits (so we know who's seriously interested). I'll give a detailed price breakdown of all expenses then. Once we have the quantity picked out, we can get an exact price on our Avalon6 units, and then we can start this ball rolling.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: philipma1957 on November 11, 2015, 12:29:10 AM
This seems to be a better method of setup.

Depending on kilo17 and my other options I may do 1-2 units here.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Biodom on November 11, 2015, 01:21:20 AM
Armed has contacted me about purchasing PSU's (the IBM 2880W PSU's) to power the Co-Op, I am going to be putting some bulk pricing together to operate the miners as I feel they are the most reliable/cost effective PSU's for medium-large scale at present.

Here are some of my thoughts on the Co-Op:

The biggest challenge here seems to be where to store the accumulated funds in between confirming commitment and the actual payment to the manufacturer.  Instead of organizing this as a Co-Op, why not just run it as a Group Buy?  If you wanted to keep it extremely simple, break "shares" down to 1 full Avalon6 (so that everyone that buys in owns that hardware, and after the committed hosting period individuals could make arrangements with the Data Center to return/rehost/sell the miner).

Shares would be valued at price of the miner + VAT/Duty + Shipping + PSU cost + X month pre-paid hosting fee.  After that hosting period is done, it would be up to the owner to re-commit to another group hosting timeframe or sell the miner and have the Hoster ship it/host it for someone else, or just have it returned to them.

As for the funds, you could simply ask for a down-payment as a reservation fee, and once you have all the commitments in place all the funds could be transferred individually to the manufacturer's wallet and the order could be made up/shipped out, similar to how RoadStress ran the SP20 Group Buy last Winter (small deposit left with RS, remaining balances were paid to SP-Tech individually and the SP-20's shipped to individuals.  In this case instead all miners would go to hosting facility).  You would specify a date range for commitment & initial deposit, and then a firm date to send the balance of funds to the manufacturer, otherwise deposit is forfeit and you are excluded from GB.

I agree. Group buy initiated at SPT (for SP-30) also worked with Titan hosting and i did not hear anything wrong about it.
KSS, right?


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Biodom on November 11, 2015, 01:27:40 AM
It looks that there are numerous legal and practical problems of joint ownership and joint custodialship of funds, and I think we can approach this better.

We can run the GB similar to the roadstress christmas GB. Everyone retains ownership of the miners (no corporation needed), the vast majority of funds are never held by me, and at the end of the hosting term they can do whatever the hell they want with em--although they have the option to renew hosting.

Here's the game plan:
  • I take a 0.06BTC (per miner) deposit from those committing to miners. If you back out you lose your deposit, if we don't make the MOQ then everyone gets their deposit back.
  • BlockC provides payment address, everyone pays for the miners.
  • At the same time, Finksy provides payment address, everyone pays for the PSUs.
  • Once miners arrive and are running at CryptoBoreas, Allinvain provides a single payment address and everyone pays for the hosting.
  • If someone doesn't pay for the hosting by a set due date, their hardware is seized to pay for the cost of hosting.
  • The buyers sign a message containing their username with the BTC address(s) they paid with.
Once hosting has been paid for, everyone gets their deposit back (except those who didn't pay at some stage).

I will sign the hosting agreement and will provide allinvain with your pool information so he isn't inundated with PMs. If you want pools changed, I will have remote access to the miners and will be able to do it for you in a jiffy.

Finksy PM'd me a full fee schedule of the PSUs, the prices are very good. I will post that when I make the official GB thread tomorrow.

see highlighted...not sure how you can seize something that cost $1300 if someone was one day late on a $323 hosting payment (assuming 6 mo).
this sounds drastic. I would prefer something else, maybe a suspension with hashing going to provider everybody else or perhaps a third party taking it over in 7-10 days after nonpayment and refunding the miner cost back to the initial owner.
Edit: yeah, as posted below, if not paid, miner is hashing for provider until payment is made. However miner still belongs to the one who paid for it initially.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: allinvain on November 11, 2015, 01:32:53 AM
Seizing the hardware is a bit extreme, and should only be reserved for exceptional cases. I think something more reasonable from the hosting provider's point of view is switching the hardware to mine for the hosting provider until the customer pays the amount owing; thus it's not a double loss.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: armedmilitia on November 11, 2015, 01:47:33 AM
I was not clear at all! The hardware would be temporarily "seized" (IE taken control of) and payments redirected in order to pay for the hosting costs, and then control would be returned after the costs have been covered. I agree that confiscating the miner permanently is extreme!

Good catch, guys.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Finksy on November 11, 2015, 03:02:46 AM
I'd like to add that if you guys go with Finsky for PSUs you can save on shipping costs because a member of our team lives in Toronto, so he can just personally pickup the PSUs and we'll drive them up to Labrador free of charge. I would also recommend buying the necessary PSUs _before_ the miners ship, this way the PSUs are ready and waiting in Labrador.

Yeah buddy no problem.  I could drive them to you or your colleague in either city, considering your drive to the DC is about 8x further, lol.

Armed, PM'ing you back now.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Finksy on November 11, 2015, 05:05:33 AM
Well given the new nature of the GB, I may as well post my prices here for you all to see.  All prices will include delivery to Allinvain or his colleague, who will in turn graciously provide delivery to the Data Center on the East Coast.

Each PSU setup will be capable of running 2.5 Avalon6 miners, and would consist of the following:

-IBM 2880W PSU w/ fans
-Breakout board (with 22x PCIe connectors)
-C19-C20 cable
-10x 24" 16AWG PCIe cables

15x Miners - 6 PSU setups required. Cost per PSU bundle would be $165 or $66 per Avalon6
40x Miners - 16 PSU setups required.  Cost per PSU bundle would be $155 or $62 per Avalon6
75x Miners - 30 PSU setups required.  Cost per PSU bundle would be $150 or $60 per Avalon6
100x Miners - 40 PSU setups required. Cost per PSU bundle would be $147.50 or $59 per Avalon6

The only other issue is what happens with the PSU's once the hosting is terminated.  Since you can't request a part of a PSU returned to you, and they are being used to power 2.5 miners, everyone will have to come to a consensus.  Allinvain has mentioned that the DC may be interested in buying them out depending on pricing at the time.  There is also a possibility of looking for a bulk buyer to take them all and dividing the funds equally, if the opportunity arose at the right time.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: allinvain on November 11, 2015, 05:15:59 AM
I'd like to add that ideally we would prefer that one PSU power 2 miners only, not 2.5, for a load of ~2200 watts. We like to run everything below max capacity and everything in our electrical setup is overspec and loaded up to a maximum of 70 to 80% for safety reasons (not to mention long term reliability).




Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: philipma1957 on November 11, 2015, 05:22:14 AM
I'd like to add that ideally we would prefer that one PSU power 2 miners only, not 2.5, for a load of ~2200 watts. We like to run everything below max capacity and everything in our electrical setup is overspec and loaded up to a maximum of 70 to 80% for safety reasons (not to mention long term reliability).





this is penny foolish and pound wise


ie  I like the idea


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Searing on November 11, 2015, 05:27:49 AM
A 0.5% bulk discount on over 100 units.  ::)

I've been lurking for a while and this urges me to add my voice here :)

Avalon6 and BitMain's S7 are overpriced, too much, they're actually priced for 2-3c/kWh electricity.

I mean, BitMain in China does not have access to such cheap electricity (I don't have any proof, just long reads here about cheapest electricity in China) so they have to be sure that nobody can earn more than themselves when selling an S7.

BTW, they sell it on Hashnest as well, so Hashnest's price is a little lower since you're paying .10c/kWh there.

What we should find, IMHO, is cheap electricity, like .05c or .04c and a bunch of second hand S5s or SP20s, which are overpriced as well (from the WTS offers I see here on bitcointalk), but not as much as a new S7 and should possibly ROI no further than April next year and be able to be marginally profitable (thanks to cheap electricity) beyond next halving.

Spending 1600 USD/unit now to earn 98 USD 400 or more days from now... well, is not that thrilling as a proposition, not to mention that a single failing unit wipes out the earnings of 16 more units.

spiccioli


Yeah I'm running into the same damn "MATH" you are....and of course when was the last time equip from an ASIC mnfg arrived ON TIME. As an example I have 2 Titan 650mh total scrypt miners running at 13c kwh ...assuming I could host them for 1/2 the elec costs etc and the equip is free (paid for ROI) I would make MAYBE an extra (after shipping fees etc hosting for 6 months) maybe say 75 bucks extra a month in elec savings....so using that kinda logic you toss up NEW equip at the prices and it kinda sorta becomes problematic quick. A person wonders it it really worth the hassle or risk on equip arriving on time and all the ducks in a row etc etc

The only catch I may have others may not is I'm a LEGAL miner in the states..ie the IRS knows about my efforts and approves...(read that sad tale on how it happened an a prev post back) anyway due to buying too much equip in 2013 and 2014 and it arriving at then back end of each year (that helped) I have paid no real taxes so far..and some extra $$$ to the CPA so been lucky

My point is under such a scenario if you are legal in my manner (don't recommend it but again my situation) I can get 1/2 of the 25% depreciation on equip back in my taxes paid to IRS the first year and that remaining 12.5% back parceled out the next 4 years (should I run the bitcoin biz that long into the future) bitcoin miners under the 2013 IRS virtual currency guidelines are considered computer equip and can be depreciated as such. (this is why my CPA laughs and says I'm a farmer she treats my entire business like the farmers she serves..same deal in that IRS treats mined currency as land and capital gains and all...and viola my ltc miners are 'tractors' so to speak) :)

So anyway there may be a bit of a hedge for me in my legal setup above and beyond that makes  this attractive from showing IRS my bona fides and such with the equip discounts (and that would include hosting fee etc I think but likely NOT electric)

but then again as in previous posts ..I may be thinking too shallow here if it is a long term ..go for broke ...build it up in future with SP50's balls to the wall project..if that is so..well hell I've dumped $1,600 bucks in dumber things :)

anyway my rambling thoughts at this time.


(man this is complex at least in my feeble little mind) :)

edited: got rid of USA hosting I re-read previous posts it is hosting in Canada from what I understand. The benefits to me as a legal miner on equip depreciation in states still applies thou to myself or others in my situation....so again 12.5% off equip purchase (and i think hosting) the 1st year ...is helpful in my situation. Also shows some bona fides for the biz (ie making revenue modest thou it may be) for the IRS to show me as continuing to be a legit biz

As a side note in 2013 a guy named LAB RAT tried to do something similar as you all with BFL ...but BFL as you know never shipped equip so it was a complete fiasco...not sure what kind of protections you can put in place for something like that ..just saying...good intentions sometime end up as roadkill w/o any fault to those involved.



Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: spiccioli on November 11, 2015, 07:23:24 AM
I'd like to add that ideally we would prefer that one PSU power 2 miners only, not 2.5, for a load of ~2200 watts. We like to run everything below max capacity and everything in our electrical setup is overspec and loaded up to a maximum of 70 to 80% for safety reasons (not to mention long term reliability).





this is penny foolish and pound wise


ie  I like the idea

Well,

I have several PSUs of this kind powering some SP20s, each PSU has 3 powerfull fans which lower total efficiency if underutilized.

At 2.5 Avalons each we should be at 2.5 - 2.6 kW per PSU so at around 90% utilization of the PSU.

Just my 2c.

spiccioli


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: Searing on November 11, 2015, 10:08:11 AM
On a side note. (I'm likely to get shot down on this quick) but just for the sake of the question....could a person (supposedly) just do the Group Buy for the Miner w/o going for the hosting?

The reason I ask is my 'unique' situation with equip and deductions with IRS as that I'm a legal miner in USA. (again don't ask see my previous posts...trapped I was)

Anyway at 12.5% equip depreciation the first year and the remaining depreciation I can take off taxes owed for the next 4 years for the other 12.5% ..should I choose to run this 'bitcoin biz out that far"...well ......anyway even at my electric at 2x as much ..it could just plain be a wash for me..comparatively speaking. (I figure even if I just do 2 years on this miner before saying the hell with it that is 15.5% off the equip price on top of the group buy)


Anyway just asking ..fully understand if you tell me to go "stuff it" :)...... Just trolling for options on this....from my somewhat 'odd' mining situation...and IRS etc.



Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: ATCkit on November 11, 2015, 01:21:07 PM
It looks that there are numerous legal and practical problems of joint ownership and joint custodialship of funds, and I think we can approach this better.

We can run the GB similar to the roadstress christmas GB. Everyone retains ownership of the miners (no corporation needed), the vast majority of funds are never held by me, and at the end of the hosting term they can do whatever the hell they want with em--although they have the option to renew hosting.

Here's the game plan:
  • I take a 0.06BTC (per miner) deposit from those committing to miners. If you back out you lose your deposit, if we don't make the MOQ then everyone gets their deposit back.
  • BlockC provides payment address, everyone pays for the miners.
  • At the same time, Finksy provides payment address, everyone pays for the PSUs.
  • Once miners arrive and are running at CryptoBoreas, Allinvain provides a single payment address and everyone pays for the hosting.
  • If someone doesn't pay for the hosting by a set due date, their hardware is seized to pay for the cost of hosting.
  • The buyers sign a message containing their username with the BTC address(s) they paid with.
Once hosting has been paid for, everyone gets their deposit back (except those who didn't pay at some stage).

I will sign the hosting agreement and will provide allinvain with your pool information so he isn't inundated with PMs. If you want pools changed, I will have remote access to the miners and will be able to do it for you in a jiffy.

Finksy PM'd me a full fee schedule of the PSUs, the prices are very good. I will post that when I make the official GB thread tomorrow.

Great plan...with the clarity on the seizure aspect. You might want to start a new thread with Group Buy and Avalon6 in the title. You might end up doing a couple batches if demand continues after the first GB.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: philipma1957 on November 11, 2015, 02:34:25 PM
I'd like to add that ideally we would prefer that one PSU power 2 miners only, not 2.5, for a load of ~2200 watts. We like to run everything below max capacity and everything in our electrical setup is overspec and loaded up to a maximum of 70 to 80% for safety reasons (not to mention long term reliability).





this is penny foolish and pound wise


ie  I like the idea

Well,

I have several PSUs of this kind powering some SP20s, each PSU has 3 powerfull fans which lower total efficiency if underutilized.

At 2.5 Avalons each we should be at 2.5 - 2.6 kW per PSU so at around 90% utilization of the PSU.

Just my 2c.

spiccioli

I suppose they could but are there any issues with multiple psu's power an avalon 6.

we may find 2 ¼ is better then 2 or 2 ½ 

 one avalon 6 would use a pcie from 4 psu's

rather

 then one avalon 6 using a pcie from 2 psu's

I think a lot depends on the owner of the avalon 6.  If these prove to be real flexible in over clock or under clock  and up volt or down volt.


Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
Post by: MrBitcoinMiner on November 11, 2015, 02:44:47 PM
    Here's the game plan:
    • I take a 0.06BTC (per miner) deposit from those committing to miners. If you back out you lose your deposit, if we don't make the MOQ then everyone gets their deposit back.
    • BlockC provides payment address, everyone pays for the miners.
    [/list]

    Good update, I just want to clarify a few things. Do you have final pricing from BlockC on the machines? Also what are the final offers you got from the most competitive hosters?

    I also agree with anyone who is not making payment will have their pool settings switched to mine to the hosts account until their account is back in good standing, that is the only fair thing to do.



    Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
    Post by: Biodom on November 11, 2015, 03:15:17 PM
    A 0.5% bulk discount on over 100 units.  ::)

    I've been lurking for a while and this urges me to add my voice here :)

    Avalon6 and BitMain's S7 are overpriced, too much, they're actually priced for 2-3c/kWh electricity.

    I mean, BitMain in China does not have access to such cheap electricity (I don't have any proof, just long reads here about cheapest electricity in China) so they have to be sure that nobody can earn more than themselves when selling an S7.

    BTW, they sell it on Hashnest as well, so Hashnest's price is a little lower since you're paying .10c/kWh there.

    What we should find, IMHO, is cheap electricity, like .05c or .04c and a bunch of second hand S5s or SP20s, which are overpriced as well (from the WTS offers I see here on bitcointalk), but not as much as a new S7 and should possibly ROI no further than April next year and be able to be marginally profitable (thanks to cheap electricity) beyond next halving.

    Spending 1600 USD/unit now to earn 98 USD 400 or more days from now... well, is not that thrilling as a proposition, not to mention that a single failing unit wipes out the earnings of 16 more units.

    spiccioli

    all profitability numbers are bogus anyway with btc being $380 one day and $295 the next.
    the only play here is for halving-associated btc expected jump.
    So, you accumulate coins like there is no tomorrow, then sell some.
    If no jump, then profits would be marginal, if any.


    Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
    Post by: Finksy on November 11, 2015, 04:21:36 PM
    I suppose they could but are there any issues with multiple psu's power an avalon 6.

    we may find 2 ¼ is better then 2 or 2 ½ 

     one avalon 6 would use a pcie from 4 psu's

    rather

     then one avalon 6 using a pcie from 2 psu's

    I think a lot depends on the owner of the avalon 6.  If these prove to be real flexible in over clock or under clock  and up volt or down volt.

    Phillip,

    2500W DC (2.5 Avalon6) is well within the capability of the IBM 2880W PSU's, for long-term reliability and efficiency. These are nothing like ATX PSU's as far as durability, 87% steady load is a walk in the park.  However, as far as safety is concerned it is naturally up to the hosting facility to decide, as they are the ones with the liability.  2 1/4 miners wouldn't work as the Avalon 6's use only 2 hashboards, and mfr's don't recommend having multiple PSU's on one board.

    I've been lurking for a while and this urges me to add my voice here :)

    Avalon6 and BitMain's S7 are overpriced, too much, they're actually priced for 2-3c/kWh electricity.

    I mean, BitMain in China does not have access to such cheap electricity (I don't have any proof, just long reads here about cheapest electricity in China) so they have to be sure that nobody can earn more than themselves when selling an S7.

    BTW, they sell it on Hashnest as well, so Hashnest's price is a little lower since you're paying .10c/kWh there.

    What we should find, IMHO, is cheap electricity, like .05c or .04c and a bunch of second hand S5s or SP20s, which are overpriced as well (from the WTS offers I see here on bitcointalk), but not as much as a new S7 and should possibly ROI no further than April next year and be able to be marginally profitable (thanks to cheap electricity) beyond next halving.

    Spending 1600 USD/unit now to earn 98 USD 400 or more days from now... well, is not that thrilling as a proposition, not to mention that a single failing unit wipes out the earnings of 16 more units.

    spiccioli

    all profitability numbers are bogus anyway with btc being $380 one day and $295 the next.
    the only play here is for halving-associated btc expected jump.
    So, you accumulate coins like there is no tomorrow, then sell some.
    If no jump, then profits would be marginal, if any.

    Did ROI calculators a year ago predict that the S5's would still be worth what they are today? They haven't really depreciated much at all in fairness.  For quite a few generations now skeptics have doubted ROI, assuming that difficulty would drive hardware obsolescence.  And yet, those who have bought hardware for the past 12 months have done considerably better than those who have bought coin.  We have reached the point where you can factor equity into the purchase price of miners, unlike early generations of ASICs, and that is something that calculators do not include.

    Now, with the halving coming, revenue will be cut in half. However, I don't believe that the interest in bitcoin will be cut in half.  In between the lowering of difficulty (due to many miners becoming un-profitable) and the raise in price due to similar demand and lowered supply, I don't believe anything drastic will happen in the world of mining, and that current gen miners will stay profitable for a long time to come.  Just my BTChttp://youmeandbtc.com/bitcoin-converter-php.php?dir=tobtc&val=0.02&cur=usd&btctype=btc&exchange=Bitstamp&dec=8&bgc=DDEEFF&txtc=111133 (http://youmeandbtc.com/bitcoin-converter)


    Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
    Post by: armedmilitia on November 11, 2015, 05:16:05 PM
    There's a lot of good questions here, but at the moment I just have time for a big update:

    I have very good news for you guys. Jamie from great north data just got back from out of country (where he had no internet access), and has undercut allinvain's pricing by a fair margin. We'll get cheaper hosting and a 24/7 tech!

    I've also sent blockC a message relating to the recent drop in BTC price to see if they will lower their quote for the Avalon6.

    I was about 90% of the way done the new group buy post when jamie emailed me. I've put that on hold until we sort out the details. Hopefully we can still get this underway by the end of today!


    Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
    Post by: armedmilitia on November 11, 2015, 05:28:33 PM
    Finksy:

    If members choosing not to renew the hosting contract cannot come to a consensus about what to do with their fractional ownership of PSUs, I think we should sell the excess PSUs and split the funds between them proportionately.

    It seems to make the most sense intuitively.


    Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
    Post by: armedmilitia on November 11, 2015, 05:30:30 PM
    On a side note. (I'm likely to get shot down on this quick) but just for the sake of the question....could a person (supposedly) just do the Group Buy for the Miner w/o going for the hosting?
    For this group buy, no! It's a package deal.  :)


    Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
    Post by: spiccioli on November 11, 2015, 05:38:55 PM
    all profitability numbers are bogus anyway with btc being $380 one day and $295 the next.
    the only play here is for halving-associated btc expected jump.
    So, you accumulate coins like there is no tomorrow, then sell some.
    If no jump, then profits would be marginal, if any.

    The problem is that you spend 1600 using BTC now with the risk of having less BTC when price doubles...

    The only play, IHMO, is hoping that difficulty slows down to 1 or 2% max per retarget, otherwise the risk of ending up with less BTC one year from now seems real.


    Did ROI calculators a year ago predict that the S5's would still be worth what they are today? They haven't really depreciated much at all in fairness.  For quite a few generations now skeptics have doubted ROI, assuming that difficulty would drive hardware obsolescence.  And yet, those who have bought hardware for the past 12 months have done considerably better than those who have bought coin.  We have reached the point where you can factor equity into the purchase price of miners, unlike early generations of ASICs, and that is something that calculators do not include.

    Don't forget that for a good half of 2015 difficulty moved very little, now it seems we're back at 4-5% increase each retarget.

    Anyway, if, as it seems, there is a lower electricity cost available now.. well, let's redo again all our calculations and predictions and see what they give.

    spiccioli


    Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
    Post by: philipma1957 on November 12, 2015, 02:45:47 AM
    Waiting  for full info on this.  pricing etc.


    Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
    Post by: armedmilitia on November 12, 2015, 03:57:40 AM
    It will come!

    Updates:
    BlockC has promised a price of at most $1320/unit, and have said they will "work with me" on pricing once we have a firm number of participants. It seems like they could be more flexible than originally hoped. That's good news, especially with the drop in BTC price.


    Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
    Post by: philipma1957 on November 12, 2015, 04:10:00 AM
    It will come!

    Updates:
    BlockC has promised a price of at most $1320/unit, and have said they will "work with me" on pricing once we have a firm number of participants. It seems like they could be more flexible than originally hoped. That's good news, especially with the drop in BTC price.

    I hope to do 2 plus the psu.

    I also will order for at least one for in house from kilo17

    this would be 3 pieces total.


    Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
    Post by: buysolar on November 12, 2015, 05:16:27 AM
    Interested in 1 plus a psu as well.


    Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
    Post by: Searing on November 12, 2015, 09:21:46 AM
    On a side note. (I'm likely to get shot down on this quick) but just for the sake of the question....could a person (supposedly) just do the Group Buy for the Miner w/o going for the hosting?
    For this group buy, no! It's a package deal.  :)

    yeah again just me in that i'm a legal miner in the states can get 15.5% off for 2 years..should i only go with the 2 vs the full 5 years (at 25%) ....for the biz....in equip depreciation on top of this w/o hosting (or hell with hosting it applies too i guess) .... just playing with numbers....whatever edge i can make in this i guess

    anyone know off hand the price of these units outside of the GB and hosting deal as a comparison? Need to see the diff in value of GB and hosting vs what the units would go for w/o the group buy and hosting etc....what % savings we talking about here before adding in electric savings (in my case)

    (again having fun playing with the math) :)





    Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
    Post by: philipma1957 on November 12, 2015, 12:26:27 PM
    On a side note. (I'm likely to get shot down on this quick) but just for the sake of the question....could a person (supposedly) just do the Group Buy for the Miner w/o going for the hosting?
    For this group buy, no! It's a package deal.  :)

    yeah again just me in that i'm a legal miner in the states can get 15.5% off for 2 years..should i only go with the 2 vs the full 5 years (at 25%) ....for the biz....in equip depreciation on top of this w/o hosting (or hell with hosting it applies too i guess) .... just playing with numbers....whatever edge i can make in this i guess

    anyone know off hand the price of these units outside of the GB and hosting deal as a comparison? Need to see the diff in value of GB and hosting vs what the units would go for w/o the group buy and hosting etc....what % savings we talking about here before adding in electric savings (in my case)

    (again having fun playing with the math) :)





    well the only other way to beat moq is get one from kilo17  .

    I want one in house so I am getting one from him hopefully his come in this friday and he ships one to me no later then sat.

    but the world of asice is always a bit unknown.

    My list of ifs are as follows

    1)kilo17 gets his gear on fri
    2)he ships me one fast
    3)it arrives to me in nj
    4) I test in out on Mon -Tues next week
    5) I like it and order 2 here

     6)  all of the while coins stay pretty steady in the 320 -340 spot

    7)  all gear is on line and coins whale back to 1200 or more
    8)  this group buy is run great
    9) GND is also great and hosting works fine.
    10) By April  I will have 3x my money due to the rise in coins
    11) I sell off all gear for my summer power price rise.
    12) I take a nice long vacation to Australia visit all my wife's family there. (80 or so people)


    Title: Re: [Proposal] Mining Co-Op
    Post by: armedmilitia on November 12, 2015, 02:28:45 PM
    Group buy is starting! Woohoo!

    New thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1247577.0

    (this thread has been locked)