Bitcoin Forum

On the newbie forum there was a thread about how to safely stash bitcoins for long term storage. I wrote a response, and realized that hoarding is a big deal for bitcoin users, and this might be worth its own thread:

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Simplest way to stash bitcoin - don't do it!

Bitcoins are ment to be spent! All this hoarding does nothing for the bitcoin economy.

If everyone just stashed bitcoins away forever, do you know what bitcoins would be worth once you did take them out again - squat.

You may be dead in 10 years - and all that investment in bitcoin will vanish with your squishy brain wallet.

Buy some alpaca socks and enjoy your bitcoins today.

One day, when a super-quantum computer cracks the encryption to all of the bitcoin addresses in 5 minutes, and everyone cries about their lost coins, you will have warm and comfy feet.

This advise applies to hoarding of all monies - including precious metals (I heard that there is enough gold in the earth's core to cover the earth with 1 meter deep of gold (probably exaggeration)).

 Happiness is the only thing you should hoard.

'Hoarding', which is identical to 'Saving', is the act of giving a 'future-you' what you do not need to consume today.

Aesop's fable: the Ant and the Grasshopper (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ant_and_the_Grasshopper#section_1)

There is a small but important difference between Hoarding and Saving.

Saving is, put aside what you don't need today for future use.

While hording is to acquire as much as possible of something, therefore short its availability and artificially increases the value. This is indeed damaging the BTC economy.

Edit: When I read the threads title, I came here to troll state my opinion that hoarding damages Bitcoin, but I was just lured in. I totally agree with the OP.

There really is no difference economically between 'hoarding' and 'saving'. They are both words for a person's demand for money (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_for_money#section_1 (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_for_money#section_1)).

If you read in that wiki some of the demand for money is its transaction value and some is because of its value as an asset. Because of the fixed supply model for Bitcoin, there is more asset demand for Bitcoin compared to print-all-you-want fiat money.

The only difference in the terminology is that 'hoarding' is deemed to be bad but 'saving' is good. Both reflect demand for money, to project to future usage.

Hoarding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoarding_%28economics%29

Saving: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saving

What is the problem with that?

I'm also not spending all my BTC immediately, I'm saving them to when I need them.

I've learned in my economics 101 class that a good economy is one that saves and spends equally...whatever that means.

I happily spend BTC when it rises in value above what I originally paid for it...  
if I happen to find something that I want/need that I can pay for with BTC...
and especially if the merchant offers a discount in BTC over other forms of payment.  

Those latter things are fairly lacking at the moment so I just save that BTC for
when I can make good use of it.  And I see that as being more beneficial to the
BTC economy than harmful.

/edit btw I do let my customers know that I take BTC and I offer them a discount
over cash or cheques and a greater discount over paypal.  Oh my gosh... now
that I am editing this post I see that I have to press that "save" button... I am
somewhat reluctant to do that now that it appears there is a negative stigma
against such practices... oh well I will get over it...  thank god it doesn't offer the
option to "hoard" my post...  ;)  

and another btw... in regard to the OP...  what good is happiness which isn't shared?   :D

Well, not quite true.  

Let's say an item I need is priced in dollars, and the price is $10.    So if I prefer to pay for that purchase in bitcoins, I then buy $10 worth of bitcoins.  It doesn't matter what the exchange rate is.   If BTC/USD is $10, then I need 1 BTC.   If BTC/USD is $2 then I need 5 BTC.  Either way, I am exchanging $10 of fiat to get $10 worth of bitcoins.  

So in that context, you are correct.  Hoarding does nothing for the bitcoin economy -- it doesn't hurt nor help.  

Now if I am a Bitcoin-related entrepreneur I might hold bitcoins.  And I might be looking to raise funds for my entrepreneurial ambitions.  
If there is hoarding of coins and the exchange rate rises quite a bit, my coins have more buying power as the result of others hoarding.

Thus hoarding helps the undercapitalized risk-taking entrepreneur who bought or mined bitcoins for speculation earlier.

At the same time, an increase in the exchange rate due simply to hoarding increases the risk of a price collapse.  If that demand isn't due to those bitcoins being used in commerce for buying and selling, then many hoarders have greater control over the exchange rate.  There was a nearly 30% drop in the exchange  from the October high to October low.   During that time there probably wasn't a 30% decrease in the use of bitcoins for commerce transactions so the bulk of that move was speculative buying and selling (mostly selling).     If there wasn't hoarding the price probably would never have reached $13, and thus the drop wouldn't have been as dramatic.

This exchange rate volatility, which can be attributed to speculative activity (hoarding) then actually does do something for the Bitcoin economy -- it hurts it, at least from a merchant's perspective.  A merchant doesn't want to see the profits from a sale vaporize because the currency rate took a turn south.  As a result the merchant will use a payment processor to convert those coins to fiat, which add costs (which  makes Bitcoin less favored for commerce) and also lessens the likelihood that the merchant in turn will use those coins for its purchases.

The thing is, ... there's no "right" way.  Bitcoins function as a store of value, and they will be held for speculative purposes by those willing to take that risk.

No matter what payment method is used, a merchant -- especially one starting with no customer base, has a very tall hill to climb.  That some investors are holding onto bitcoins should really be of little concern to that merchant.

I very much agree with the op, hence Im only holding on to a small precentage of the coins I recieve. My thinking is that this way the coins I hold on will be worth more in the unforseeable future. In oppose to if we all hoard every bitcent we get, bitcoin fails.

Why would you troll like that?   You're not a dumb guy.  Why would you write that?

this would only be true if bitcoins appreciated at a rate faster than I can find useful things to buy for myself, and that's clearly not true  ::)

Be careful what you wish for, if bitcoin was not worth saving, by definition it would be worthless. Said another way, the less bitcoin savers you have, the less bitcoin is worth.

You now, you can still save bitcoin, while spending them. Every time you want to buy something for Fiat, just look if you can get it for BTC. Then just exchange the fiat for BTC and immediately buy what you want.

This way, you spend the same, you don't need to touch you savings, but you help the BTC economy and therefore increase the worth of your savings.

It's just a little effort, but if everyone would do this, there would be a significant impact on Bitcoin.

I must admit, I am "hoarding" the shit out of bitcoin.

regret=none  ;D

One man's hoarding is another man's prudent saving for a rainy day.


OP you are lucky I highly value my integrity which didn't allow me to edit your title and replace "Hoard" with a provocative capital H to propaganda neutral "save".

Introducing a third party does not increase the value of bitcoin (he sold you his btc). Increasing the amount of transactions does not either. In this scenario, BTC would rise in value only if the person selling goods for BTC then saved (hoarded) them for future purchasing power.

The increase in value is from Stores making BTC revenue and therefore showing the usability of BTC.

If everyone would at least do this, then the amount of BTC revenue would probably attract more stores and therefore more users.

I disagree that saving is bad for the reasons others have provided, but I will say it would be nice if there were more and better investment opportunities.  I don't like having a ton of BTC buried in my virtual backyard, but I don't know what else to do with them.  They've provided a better return than any fiat investment I've ever made.

I hoarded my large Bitcoin purchase for over a year. I had a few electronic copies of my private address as well as a piece of paper in my house with it written down.

Then I was short on funds for a downpayment on a house.

I was able to stop hoarding and put those BTC toward cash for my house.

If I had not hoarded and spent on Alpaca socks I would have warm feet...out on the street.

There is nothing I want to buy with bitcoins that I can't buy with fiat. So why would I choose bitcoins over fiat when the former has a potential upside of a tin can under a lit stick of dynamite? Is the guy who spent 10,000BTC on a pizza thrilled he contributed to the "cause" or would he rather have ~$100,000 from an nominal investment of a few dollars?

If you are saving in bitcoin then to make a purchase with those coins, any purchase, you need to then either cash some coins out to fiat, which incurs an expense, or you can use them as the method of payment.

So if you can spend the bitcoins rather than cashing them out that gives you an immediate return over the cost of quickly convert those coins to cash.   If you wish to maintain a level position of bitcoins, then in response to the spending you can then use an inexpensive bank transfer to purchase more coins that will replenish the amount that you spent.


That's not entirely true.  Can you play an equivalent with SatoshiDICE using any other payment method?

Even so, Bitcoin brings benefits to merchants allowing them to offer a discount when the customer pays using Bitcoins versus credit card.

Tangible Cryptography, for instance, sells $100 of AT&T wireless service for an amount of bitcoins worth just $95.  (i.e., the customer receives a 5% discount when paying in bitcoins).  Take that 5% now, and replenish your coins with an inexpensive bank transfer -- you come out ahead versus just saving the coins.
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=82924.0

Where this could get wider traction is for high dollar, high volume purchases.    For example, people will pay cash at gas stations that offer a ten cent per gallon discount for paying cash.  Consider if they let you pay bitcoins and get that same discount.  (or because cash is expensive, the bitcoin method is even cheaper than the cash payment method.)  

And then there are other categories that are just ripe for Bitcoin adoption.   Merchant accounts for travel billings are considered "high risk" due to the high chargeback ratio.   So that is an example where the merchant can use bitcoin to gain a competitive advantage.
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=73694.0

There needs to be a balance between spending and Saving. We all should be figuring ways to create valuable services and products that are only possible because of bitcoins. This will get people excited about bitcoins and get more transactions on bitcoins.

Consistent hoarding is good for the bitcoin economy and is to be expected. Inconsistent hoarding (large spikes in selling and buying pressure) can be a problem. As bitcoin matures, we should see more of the former and less of the latter.

I would not be into bitcoin at all if it didn't have good hoarding properties. I think the same is true for many. Of course, I also consume goods and services for bitcoin, and would like to be able to do an increasing part of my commerce in it. Does that mean that holding some savings in bitcoin is bad? Of course not. Those who think "hoarding is bad!!!" really don't understand what bitcoin is or why it has the value it does. If there weren't many people holding right now, most purchasers of bitcoins would have lost money. The fact that people still hoard even after the value has gone up over 1000X is one of the things that is keeping the economy somewhat more stable.

I hoard/save about 20% of my mined coin.  The other 80% is used to pay for electricity, stuff, donation, mining rigs..  I'm pretty sure that my 20% savings will worth enought to pay the rest of my house loan within 10 years.. when we'll be used to deal in mBTC or even in Satoshi.  I tend to live each day as if I was to die next week.  I also save a bit of wealth for my old days, if it happens.  For quantum stuff, my tought is that many other event are more probable to kill BTC, if they died sometimes, wich I think is a really really small possibility.  And to finish, I never invest in anything, any amount I can't lose overnight.  So yeah, I'm the kind of man who enjoy every day, and is also optimistic for the future, but I could die tomorow saying I lived en plenty and fullfilled life !  Hope that's the case to most of you :D

was my 2 satoshi !

I gave people in the community fiat cash for the bitcoins they were not using at the time, now I spend some here and there if I see something I want or need.

The day where I can buy some real estate with my saved bitcoin is my ultimate goal, I truly hope this project works just to screw the banks out of some money. I remember the days where everything was in cash, where you could dispute the amount of hours worked over what was paid on the spot.

What kind of idiot logic is this? People don't get ahead in life by spending their money on aplaca socks do they? The homeless guy down the street can be happy with his warm socks. I prefer financial security, and I don't get that by spending all my money.

in response to robkohr statement
are you kidding me?

lets say there is 11mill coins in circulation. and hoarders keep 10mill of them. all the other users will fight for the remaining 1 mill of coins left in the ether. raising their bids to get those elusive coins, causing a price increase.

because bitcoin cannot buy a loaf of bread or a carton of milk its not like it would be hard for people to adapt to higher prices seeing as value can auto adjust due to live pricing API's used in sourcecodes of websites.

basically if this week $10 gives you 1 bitcoin which is worth a viagra pill or other drug. in a couple years that $10 only gives you 50,000 satoshi's which still equate to a pill.. so all them pill pushers still get their fiat value and same amount of pills no matter what the btc price does. so traders don't lose out

and for the hoarders, by not trading them, their investment grows.. but by spending them they would dilute the demand causing a prices drop. so its always best to hold and wait.

so how is hoarding bad??

why do you think the rich guys are rich.. because they accumilate and they hold. those with million dollar a year salerys don't spend that million dollars each year. maybe spend half keep half. but those on minimum wage have no choice but to spend their income.

the other thing to think about is if everyone cashed out via bitinstant instead of holding them. bitinstants 'reserves' will empty. so say goodbye to the $110mill that is floating around in bitinstant, moneygram, mtgox, BTC-E and other reserves.

if all that is left is $10k to represent the 11mill coins then the value of a BTC would go down to under 1c a coin. so i ask again

how is hoarding bad??

Stacking coins is a once in a lifetime (or much longer?) opportunity. I spend coins because that's nearly all I freaking have. Think about it, hoard them so hard you have to spend them to live.

Please hoard it, ECB paper has presented their worry about the BTC entering circulation will increase the actually money supply thus make central bank's job more difficult  :D :D

hoarders are mainly people with day jobs to pay the bills so have no great desire to spend the coins just yet

I am saving my bitcoins because at the moment they fluctuate too much although were trending up until this month which has took a bit of a dip.

If/when my bitcoins are worth more than I paid/mined them for then I might start spending or cashing out, but the main problem I see at the moment is most things are sold at their fiat equivalent anyway.

Even people on here say things like $500 or BTC @ mtGox average... so really, people still aren't happy enough to just say this is 50BTC, that is the price regardless of dollar/euro/pound

Hoarding bitcoins=Good for you, Bad for the Bitcoin currency, Wich is what your hoarding, So you devaluing what your trying to hoard, By hoarding it.
AKA, Bad for you in the LONG run. AKA Bad for bitcoin in the Short AND long run

Once one guy "dumps" his coin stash into the market, People will go "OH NO ITS CRASHING, I HAVE TO SELL MY STASH TOO!"

And Boom, There goes the bitcoin value. But theres a big differance between Hoarding and Saving

+1

"Hoarding" is utter nonsense.

If, like me, you believe the fiat exchange rate of Bitcoin is undervalued then of course you're going to want to accumulate Bitcoins to the greatest extent of which you are financially capable and only sell them when you believe that the fiat exchange rate is overvalued.

TL;DR: Hoarding is not the problem. Hoarders loosing faith is.

I won't tell names, but I know somebody else in this position.

I think no matter what, after people have hoarded the amount that enough to support his retirement, he will start to spend, that amount is about 100000BTC at today's price, and I think most of people have less than 1000 BTC, means price have to rise 100 times before people start to spend

Your argument actually says that dumpers are bad, not that hoarders are bad.

Dumpers are a superclass of hoarders, as to them hoarding is merely a word some people use sometimes to refer to the "prepare a big pile of stuff to dump" step, the prepare your ammunition step needed to prepare for one's next dumping.

So they are not really hoarders at all, they are simply folks who need/use an amount of ammunition that some folk, mostly smaller scale folk in terms of numbers of coins involved, consider excessive or recognise as potentially sufficient to accomplish an effective dumping.

TL;DR hoarding is good, dumping is bad.

-MarkM-

If people provided products honestly in return for bitcoin then more people would be encouraged to spend, I have yet to see anything in the bitcoin economy that makes me go zomgwtf I must have it, so far as a relative outsider to bitcoin I have only seen makeshift marketplaces with barely anything in them, blatantly pirated software and games for sale and ponzi schemes. All of which aren't a very encouraging thing for me and wouldn't convince me to part with my money.

At this I can agree. What Bitcoin is still missing is kind of a killer app, that would make BTC really extreme useful.

SatoshiDic shows that there are ways to use that technology, that aren't possible with conventional money.

I personally think, that with BTC there are applications possible no one has thought of yet, because we are all to stuck in the confidential way of thinking.

I still hope that one morning I will wake up, just thinking, "That's it".

I wouldn't say I'm hoarding BTC, I am accumulating them. I spend them as much as possible, I loan them, I want the money flowing and the industry growing... but there is no doubt that I am always going to hold on to enough BTC to benefit when the price skyrockets. I won't sell everything I have even at $1000 USD/BTC. Value is going to continue to rise as long as I'm alive. Every time it triples or quadruples I will unload some... I don't care if it's in 2013 or 2020... until then you can call me a hoarder if you want.

No matter how high the price goes, there will always be a cold wallet in a security deposit box or under the floorboards somewhere with some of my Bitcoins.   ;)

People are going to hoard no matter. Its part of the game

I put it in with the feasibility of mining gold at the earth's core. It was meant to sound rediclous and humorous but alas tone didn't come through the way I wished.

JackRabitt, you totally hit the nail on the head.

For those arguing the semantics of saving/hoarding, I think you are missing this point. Speculation alone will not be able to hold up the value of the currency, and spending your coins is critical to energizing this economy. As another poster who was arguing against me said, 90% of the currency is held by hoarders, and thus the hoarders prop up the value. When happens when that 90% get antsy? If 90% were circulating in the market, it would be no big deal, as you just go out and buy/sell stuff.

The economy is not as vibrant as the euro & dollar markets, but it only gets there when those that hold coins spend money. If you don't think there are things to spend money on, look here:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade

I personally like the VPS options, and am moving from linode to one of those.

They won't panic dump their stash if they are good at hoarding/saving. And what is the big difference?

If the only value of coins is the continual upward demand from hoarding, and there is a perception that the value is dissapating, then a panic is a sure thing. Only a healthy market prevents that.

Strong hoarders prevent it too, or do you consider people who sell all their coins to still be hoarders somehow?

spending coins on good and services is better than selling coins for fiat, period. merchant will probably sell your coins for fiat in-turn, but at least you're supporting merchants who accept BTC, thus strengthening the economy userbase. i'm all for providing merchants with business if they accept bitcoin, and the opposite if they're against bitcoin.

In a mature economy, that will not happen. One guy "dumps" his holodings (maybe he wants to put a down payment on a house or for some other reason needs to use his savings), that will influence the price downward, at which point other people say "Wow, bitcoin went down, I'll grab some". So the price of bitcoins gets bid back up. When the bitcoin system has a balance of "hoarders" and "day traders", the price will remain relatively stable.