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Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: bitcoinBull on June 06, 2011, 12:57:34 AM



Title: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: bitcoinBull on June 06, 2011, 12:57:34 AM
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Schumer-Calls-on-Feds-to-Shut-Down-Online-Drug-Marketplace-123187958.html


This merits a thread of its own.

Just as we've been expecting, but I'm a bit surprised how quickly it happened.

Wow.. bitcoin is moving at the speed of.. bits!



Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Astro on June 06, 2011, 12:58:53 AM
We all knew it was going to happen eventually.  Now let's see how the market reacts.

Edit: buying opportunity incoming


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: grue on June 06, 2011, 12:59:43 AM
wow, knew this would happen. This is exactly what we don't want for bitcoin. :(
Quote
"It's an online form of money laundering used to disguise the source of money, and to disguise who's both selling and buying the drug," said Schumer.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Ian Maxwell on June 06, 2011, 01:22:36 AM
This is huge. I can't decide whether to buy or sell.

I may write to Mr. Schumer, as well as my own representative and senators and in New Hampshire. The first thing they're going to hear about Bitcoin is that it's "an online form of money laundering." I'd like to give them at least the opportunity to find better information.

To be clear, I am offering no comment whatever on the legitimacy of drug laws. That is not the issue here. If the site were selling slaves, I would still not want Bitcoin banned as a solution to the problem.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: xf2_org on June 06, 2011, 01:24:24 AM
wow, knew this would happen. This is exactly what we don't want for bitcoin. :(

Indeed :(

The best way to push back is to engage in legal commerce using bitcoins, and demonstrate that bitcoin is a viable world currency.

Start a bitcoin business, encourage businesses to accept bitcoins.



Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: BookofNick on June 06, 2011, 01:30:24 AM
You think this will affect the market negatively? I'm not sure - could be some truth in the saying "there's no such thing as bad press."

BUT I agree with other posters here - the best way to positively promote bitcoin is to use it for legitimate trade. Sure, the war on drugs is a complete disaster and 90% of drug violence could end tomorrow if all drugs were legal, but IMHO it's best to stay away from hard drugs regardless of legality, and therefore I'd like to see bitcoin being used for less illicit purposes.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Bit_Happy on June 06, 2011, 01:38:04 AM
wow, knew this would happen. This is exactly what we don't want for bitcoin. :(

Indeed :(

The best way to push back is to engage in legal commerce using bitcoins, and demonstrate that bitcoin is a viable world currency.

Start a bitcoin business, encourage businesses to accept bitcoins.



+1 We need legit business.
BY THE WAY: Not my type of site, but that article is an ad which will increase the Silk Road traffic. 



Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Fhtagn on June 06, 2011, 01:47:42 AM
This merits a thread of its own.

Agreed, I almost started one and noticed they were talking about it on the main press thread.

I've written both Senators currently involved and am about to write my own Senators and Representative.

A thunderstorm knocked out my power and took my clipboard with it. I get to write my letter all over again. The US Senate contact pages don't provide you with a backup, after submission.  :-\


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Ian Maxwell on June 06, 2011, 01:52:32 AM
+1 We need legit business.

Agreed. I'm in the process of building a few tools right now which will hopefully make that easier. The "Marketplace" forum is pretty much the worst thing that could possibly work. (No offense at all meant---this is a great discussion forum, it's just not a great bazaar.)

Quote
BY THE WAY: Not my type of site, but that article is an ad which will increase the Silk Road traffic. 

Even more agreed. This story will probably be on the evening news before the end of the week, and the take-home for millions of viewers will be, "So, if I get these bitcoin things, I can buy weed." I'm expecting a huge upswing.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Fhtagn on June 06, 2011, 01:53:42 AM
I'll post any responses I get, though I don't expect any.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: airdata on June 06, 2011, 01:54:48 AM
Quote
It's an online form of money laundering used to disguise the source of money, and to disguise who's both selling and buying the drug," said Schumer.

I suppose technically it could be considered money laundering because you can't trace the source of the money.

Hopefully this isn't going to lead to them pushing against bitcoins all together.  And it is kind of stupid that they pretend to care so much.  People who want drugs are going to get drugs.  And if they can get them online anonymously without having to deal with shady charactors on the street and what have you, that sounds like a benefit to me.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: acamus on June 06, 2011, 01:55:48 AM
It's a challenge to the Tor network. Let's see how it holds up to the Feds. In the short run it should increase traffic to the site and in otc  ;D


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: lemonginger on June 06, 2011, 02:01:14 AM
Someone should invent a decentralized currency we can use so that it doesn't matter what Senators think... oh wait, nice.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: bitcoinBull on June 06, 2011, 02:22:10 AM
After a few minutes of reflection, I would expect Schumer to get some backlash from his colleagues for embarrassing them unnecessarily.  He will learn that its usually a bad idea to raise a stink over something about which little can be done.  He's just highlighting the fact that control is slipping from the grip of the State, and the State will not be happy about that.  Some stones are best left unturned.

Medical Marijuana is already legal in how many states?  And all the Feds can muster up is a few token busts here and there.  If they can't even control meatspace, there's no chance they can control cyberspace.

This "investigation" will continue and then it will be forgetten, and swept under the rug.  Yet another sign of the decline of state power, from which they have every reason to divert the public's attention.  They just shot themselves in the foot..

At best they might catch a few SR vendors dropping off the mail, or SR will be rebranded or replaced.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: hazek on June 06, 2011, 02:49:10 AM
btw I never thought of this but is no one worried about the following?:

Quote
Attacking all users
The IP addresses of most users are totally public. You can use Tor to hide this, but the network won't work if everyone does this. BitCoin requires that some country is still free.

This is from the Weaknesses wiki page.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: abyssobenthonic on June 06, 2011, 02:49:57 AM
The most dangerous place in Washington is between Chucky Schumer and a TV camera.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mjsbuddha on June 06, 2011, 02:58:40 AM
Good. This should be shut down. And if bitcoins value drops one penny we should all sue the owner of the silk road. Bitcoin is to young and to small to be associated with this sort of thing. I hope he is imprisoned and bankrupt simultaneously.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: error on June 06, 2011, 03:06:21 AM
Good. This should be shut down. And if bitcoins value drops one penny we should all sue the owner of the silk road. Bitcoin is to young and to small to be associated with this sort of thing. I hope he is imprisoned and bankrupt simultaneously.

What have you been smoking?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: benjamindees on June 06, 2011, 03:06:52 AM
Let them eat cake.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mrNightowl on June 06, 2011, 03:10:55 AM
Let them eat cake.

Agreed.  I feel its a much safer version of drug dealing.  Besides, people should have the freedom to put what they want in their bodies in the first place.  If they want to OD on heroin... so be it.

I mean really, what can they do about it?  Say they take down Silk Road somehow, how long before a new one pops up?  I bet there is already a few new ones online because of the heavy press.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Anonymous on June 06, 2011, 03:11:40 AM
Good. This should be shut down. And if bitcoins value drops one penny we should all sue the owner of the silk road. Bitcoin is to young and to small to be associated with this sort of thing. I hope he is imprisoned and bankrupt simultaneously.

What have you been smoking?
Nothing apparently.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mjsbuddha on June 06, 2011, 03:19:46 AM
I actually agree that drugs should be legal and one should be allowed to ingest anything they please. But what should and shouldn't be has little to do with what IS and ISN'T. Drug trafficking IS illegal in the united states. This rich and powerful man now sees drugs and bitcoins as indivisible and mining and trading bitcoins as a criminal offense. He is actively trying to convince his rich and powerful friends of the same directly because of silk road. Silk road is a thread to the bitcoin network and I personally want to see it exterminated.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mewantsbitcoins on June 06, 2011, 03:30:09 AM
I actually agree that drugs should be legal and one should be allowed to ingest anything they please. But what should and shouldn't be has little to do with what IS and ISN'T. Drug trafficking IS illegal in the united states. This rich and powerful man now sees drugs and bitcoins as indivisible and mining and trading bitcoins as a criminal offense. He is actively trying to convince his rich and powerful friends of the same directly because of silk road. Silk road is a thread to the bitcoin network and I personally want to see it exterminated.

How about focusing on exterminating these rich and powerful people?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: xf2_org on June 06, 2011, 03:37:11 AM
Let them eat cake.

Agreed.  I feel its a much safer version of drug dealing.  Besides, people should have the freedom to put what they want in their bodies in the first place.  If they want to OD on heroin... so be it.

My response is always:  bitcoin is not your forum to push your ideology.

If you like bitcoin and want to see it used worldwide, freeing people from their central banks, then we need to do what we can to push back when illegality is associated with bitcoin.



Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: IlbiStarz on June 06, 2011, 03:46:17 AM
So apparently this is us:

""It's an online form of money laundering used to disguise the source of money, and to disguise who's both selling and buying the drug," said Schumer."

All the news talks about is money laundering..seriously wtf.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mrNightowl on June 06, 2011, 03:48:23 AM
My response is always:  bitcoin is not your forum to push your ideology.

Its not anybodies forum, isn't that the point.


If you like bitcoin and want to see it used worldwide, freeing people from their central banks, then we need to do what we can to push back when illegality is associated with bitcoin.

Regardless of how fluffy bunny cute you want it to be, with a system designed as bitcoin has been, you can push all you want but it won't stop that type of behavior.




Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Jaime Frontero on June 06, 2011, 03:49:39 AM
wow, knew this would happen. This is exactly what we don't want for bitcoin. :(

i think i disagree.  i think it's exactly what we do want.

we now have a 62 petaflop network - and it's time to put it to a real-world test.

as for schumer, he's a politician.  some of them actually care a little bit about the people they represent, most don't (and i think schumer is one of the ones who does, no matter how misguided he may be).

but they all care about money more than anything else - they're forced to, if they want to keep getting re-elected.

so send some donations to our good mr. schumer.

in Bitcoin.  he'll figure it out...


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mewantsbitcoins on June 06, 2011, 03:55:05 AM
My response is always:  bitcoin is not your forum to push your ideology.

If you like bitcoin and want to see it used worldwide, freeing people from their central banks, then we need to do what we can to push back when illegality is associated with bitcoin.

While it may be worth a try, I'm afraid your efforts may be futile. Firstly, you just revealed to your enemy what you are afraid off and secondly, they control the media and media likes sensationalist stories. They will manipulate how Bitcoin is perceived regardless of what we do. The only way we will come on top is if we have indestructible infrastructure. Only then will people start seeing Bitcoin for what it is - the free, worldwide currency that belongs to them. And only then they will dare use it


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 06, 2011, 03:56:34 AM
I actually agree that drugs should be legal and one should be allowed to ingest anything they please. But what should and shouldn't be has little to do with what IS and ISN'T. Drug trafficking IS illegal in the united states. This rich and powerful man now sees drugs and bitcoins as indivisible and mining and trading bitcoins as a criminal offense. He is actively trying to convince his rich and powerful friends of the same directly because of silk road. Silk road is a thread to the bitcoin network and I personally want to see it exterminated.

I think you are granting schumer too much naivety. He is well versed in the ways of the world and well paid in "campaign contributions" primarily by large legal and financial corporations. He is firmly "in the pocket", so to speak.

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/industries.php?cycle=2010&cid=N00001093&type=I&newmem=N

It works for his donors for him to tie bitcoins to illegal activities. He only "sees" what he is told in these regards I can imagine.

On the plus side, we now get to see the faces of the facist rats as they poke their noses out from their hidey hole of labyrinthine legislation and corrupt financial dealings.



Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mjsbuddha on June 06, 2011, 03:57:11 AM
I actually agree that drugs should be legal and one should be allowed to ingest anything they please. But what should and shouldn't be has little to do with what IS and ISN'T. Drug trafficking IS illegal in the united states. This rich and powerful man now sees drugs and bitcoins as indivisible and mining and trading bitcoins as a criminal offense. He is actively trying to convince his rich and powerful friends of the same directly because of silk road. Silk road is a thread to the bitcoin network and I personally want to see it exterminated.

How about focusing on exterminating these rich and powerful people?

Which is more likely, we get rid of them or they get rid of us? If we self police we will have the time to become the new rich and powerful. If we condone illegal activity then we are the bugs, not the exterminators.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Ian Maxwell on June 06, 2011, 04:01:17 AM
This is my first draft of a letter to Mr. Schumer. Any suggestions/critiques?

Quote
Dear Mr. Senator:

I write today in response to your recent announcements regarding Silk Road, which as you stated is a web service allowing people to buy and sell drugs and other items anonymously. Many of these traders are located in the United States, making their activity unquestionably illegal.

I expect you will soon receive a deluge of angry letters challenging your stance on drug policy. This is not such a letter. The law is the law and will be enforced. This letter is concerned only with matters of fact, specifically those found in your recent statements on Silk Road and Bitcoin. Much of what you have said is misleading or inaccurate as it stands.

Firstly, there is no reason to believe that Silk Road is operated from within the United States (in fact I suspect it is not). Because of the way in which the Tor anonymity network operates, Silk Road doesn't have a fixed IP address or domain name---only a Tor “hidden service address” that is not actually issued by IANA or any other central authority, and cannot be linked with any location or identity. Incidentally, the Tor anonymity network was created not by rogue hackers but by the US Naval Research Laboratory. More information on how this network operates is available at <http://www.torproject.org/about/overview.html.en>.

More concerning is that you have mischaracterized Bitcoin, the payment system used at Silk Road, by calling it “an online form of money laundering.” It is possible you were referring only to this service's manner of using Bitcoin, rather than to Bitcoin itself. I hope this is the case, because otherwise you are sorely mistaken.

Bitcoin is a decentralized internet payment system, created in 2009, whose primary feature is that money can be exchanged directly between users without the need for payment processors like PayPal or Popmoney. Bitcoin transactions are mediated not via a central service, but via a distributed network with no single point of failure. This decentralization protects Bitcoin users' financial security and personal privacy. One's “wallet” is stored on one's own computer, rather than on a central server, so fiascos like the recent Epsilon credit card data breach are impossible. Users protect their own privacy instead of delegating that task to a mega-corporation whose interests are often at odds with its users'.

Because Bitcoin is an international network, transactions are not denominated in dollars but rather in “bitcoins,” a new unit of exchange. The value of a bitcoin is not pegged to that of the dollar or any other national currency: it is determined by market forces like the value of any other commodity. Since bitcoins are not issued by a central authority, there is no one to enforce such a peg anyway.

In many ways, Bitcoin is analogous to cash. Like cash, it is absolutely controlled by its holder. Like cash, it can be given and received without fees. Like cash, once spent it is gone---there are no chargebacks or stop-payments. Like cash, its owner is responsible for keeping it secure from thieves. And, like cash, it is difficult to trace. There is no “Bitcoin, Inc.” whose records can be subpoenaed, so tracing bitcoin transactions requires old-fashioned police work.

Because of these features, Bitcoin is now being used for illegal transactions online, just as cash is used for illegal transactions in person. However, demonizing Bitcoin is about as sensible as demonizing cash. Understand that Bitcoin is being used for all sorts of transactions, most of which are quite legitimate. At this very moment there are websites offering clothes, food, web hosting, custom design, market analysis, and real estate, all in exchange for bitcoins. Earlier this weekend I bought a pound of coffee at <http://www.bitbrew.net>. By using bitcoins I've been able to get better prices, since merchants don't have to cover the costs of chargeback fraud or bank fees. The fact that some people also use it for illegal activity only shows that it is an effective and efficient medium of exchange.

Mr. Senator, the fact is that money laundering networks already exist. These networks offer protection only to criminals, while ordinary law-abiding citizens regularly have their identities stolen. Bitcoin, by contrast, extends this offer to everyone. The status quo disrupted by Bitcoin is one in which privacy is the sole privilege of outlaws. If you find that state of affairs desirable, by all means campaign for Bitcoin's destruction.

Respectfully,
Ian Maxwell

Notes:
  • I've avoided calling bitcoin a "currency" since this is likely to lead to poorly-thought out claims of counterfeiting.
  • Likewise, I've avoided any of the smash-the-state rhetoric so common around here. This guy is the state, so I don't imagine he'll be very receptive.
  • Instead I'm using the smash-the-corporate-machine rhetoric that leftists prefer.
  • My central point is that Bitcoin has legal uses and that there are many reasons for a law-abiding citizen to want to use it.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mewantsbitcoins on June 06, 2011, 04:01:54 AM
Which is more likely, we get rid of them or they get rid of us? If we self police we will have the time to become the new rich and powerful. If we condone illegal activity then we are the bugs, not the exterminators.

I don't have a slightest doubt that they are the thing of the past. It's just a matter of time now
I think you are greatly underestimating Bitcoin and it's potential


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Astro on June 06, 2011, 04:02:00 AM
If you like bitcoin and want to see it used worldwide, freeing people from their central banks, then we need to do what we can to push back when illegality is associated with bitcoin.

And when governments world-wide make bitcoin illegal because of the threat it represents to central banking, will your head explode from the irony?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Jaime Frontero on June 06, 2011, 04:02:45 AM
I actually agree that drugs should be legal and one should be allowed to ingest anything they please. But what should and shouldn't be has little to do with what IS and ISN'T. Drug trafficking IS illegal in the united states. This rich and powerful man now sees drugs and bitcoins as indivisible and mining and trading bitcoins as a criminal offense. He is actively trying to convince his rich and powerful friends of the same directly because of silk road. Silk road is a thread to the bitcoin network and I personally want to see it exterminated.

How about focusing on exterminating these rich and powerful people?

Which is more likely, we get rid of them or they get rid of us? If we self police we will have the time to become the new rich and powerful. If we condone illegal activity then we are the bugs, not the exterminators.

but if we condone freedom, we are the anteaters...


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: bitcool on June 06, 2011, 04:05:35 AM
Surrogate currency? how about Surrogate representative for the Wall Street bankers?

Could it be a WS banker finally caught up with Bitcoin and shilted his pant, afterward, Schumer got summoned to a corner office and had a long talk?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mewantsbitcoins on June 06, 2011, 04:06:51 AM
Surrogate currency? how about Surrogate representative for the Wall Street bankers?

Could it be a WS banker finally caught up with Bitcoin and shilted his pant, afterward, Schumer got summoned to a corner office and had a long talk?

They have to keep the exchange rate somehow until the funds clear and they can buy some bitcoins   ;D


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mjsbuddha on June 06, 2011, 04:08:05 AM
Which is more likely, we get rid of them or they get rid of us? If we self police we will have the time to become the new rich and powerful. If we condone illegal activity then we are the bugs, not the exterminators.

I don't have a slightest doubt that they are the thing of the past. It's just a matter of time now
I think you are greatly underestimating Bitcoin and it's potential

Oh I'm not underestimating bitcoin. We need time to realize that potential though. We are in our infancy and still very vulnerable.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 06, 2011, 04:19:33 AM
I'm not sure how effective polite letters to the good senator are anymore but I applaud your civility and patience. If they worked, we wouldn't be where we are today.

If someone wants to send him a message, it could be along these lines ....

http://new.wavlist.com/movies/043/mtrx-iknow.wav (http://new.wavlist.com/movies/043/mtrx-iknow.wav)


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mewantsbitcoins on June 06, 2011, 04:22:10 AM

I'm not sure how effective polite letters to the good senator are anymore. If they worked, we wouldn't be where we are today.

If someone wants to send him a message, it could be along these lines ....

http://new.wavlist.com/movies/043/mtrx-iknow.wav (http://new.wavlist.com/movies/043/mtrx-iknow.wav)

This should be made our official moto


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mjsbuddha on June 06, 2011, 04:24:43 AM
Agreed. Letters to your representative are as effective as protests in that they are completely ignorable. Lobbyists are effective because they are physically present, shaking hands. You want him to understand you should speak to him directly.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mjsbuddha on June 06, 2011, 04:27:16 AM

I'm not sure how effective polite letters to the good senator are anymore. If they worked, we wouldn't be where we are today.

If someone wants to send him a message, it could be along these lines ....

http://new.wavlist.com/movies/043/mtrx-iknow.wav (http://new.wavlist.com/movies/043/mtrx-iknow.wav)

This should be made our official moto

SPOILER: Neo dies in the end. Lets not emulate that.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 06, 2011, 04:29:24 AM

Yes, but there is only one Neo ... sacrificed for the freedom of the many.  :'(


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mewantsbitcoins on June 06, 2011, 04:33:33 AM

I'm not sure how effective polite letters to the good senator are anymore. If they worked, we wouldn't be where we are today.

If someone wants to send him a message, it could be along these lines ....

http://new.wavlist.com/movies/043/mtrx-iknow.wav (http://new.wavlist.com/movies/043/mtrx-iknow.wav)

This should be made our official moto

SPOILER: Neo dies in the end. Lets not emulate that.

Satoshi is also "no longer with us"


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: abyssobenthonic on June 06, 2011, 04:42:54 AM
  • Instead I'm using the smash-the-corporate-machine rhetoric that leftists prefer.

Schumer is, for all intents and purposes, the Senator from Wall St. (especially since Dodd retired)... the smash-the-corporate-machine rhetoric is probably not preferred by him (whether he's a leftist or not is open to some debate, perhaps)


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Anonymous on June 06, 2011, 04:45:53 AM
Let's just make things worse and spray paint giant gold anarchy-esque 'B's on his car and house.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Litt on June 06, 2011, 04:49:55 AM
  • Instead I'm using the smash-the-corporate-machine rhetoric that leftists prefer.

Schumer is, for all intents and purposes, the Senator from Wall St. (especially since Dodd retired)... the smash-the-corporate-machine rhetoric is probably not preferred by him (whether he's a leftist or not is open to some debate, perhaps)

So for all intents and purposes he's nothing more than a lobbyist from Wall St on taxpayers payroll. I just love the feeling I get knowing I help pay for this guys living expenses. Awesome..  :-\


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 06, 2011, 04:57:03 AM
Let's just make things worse and spray paint giant gold anarchy-esque 'B's on his car and house.

I wouldn't fancy being his sys. admin any time soon ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYw2nj36NCM&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYw2nj36NCM&feature=related)


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mewantsbitcoins on June 06, 2011, 04:57:40 AM
Let's just make things worse and spray paint giant gold anarchy-esque 'B's on his car and house.

I wouldn't fancy being his sys. admin any time soon ....
;D


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: John Kirk on June 06, 2011, 05:08:17 AM
This is my first draft of a letter to Mr. Schumer. Any suggestions/critiques?

Quote
Dear Mr. Senator:

I write today in response to your recent announcements regarding Silk Road...

Respectfully,
Ian Maxwell

Notes:
  • I've avoided calling bitcoin a "currency" since this is likely to lead to poorly-thought out claims of counterfeiting.
  • Likewise, I've avoided any of the smash-the-state rhetoric so common around here. This guy is the state, so I don't imagine he'll be very receptive.
  • Instead I'm using the smash-the-corporate-machine rhetoric that leftists prefer.
  • My central point is that Bitcoin has legal uses and that there are many reasons for a law-abiding citizen to want to use it.

I would avoid challenging the Senator to campaign for Bitcoin's destruction, as you do at the end of your letter.  That seems a tad too defiant, and I don't think that is the idea you want to convey.  Instead, I would simply implore him to treat the Silk Road and Bitcoin as two entirely separate issues, and to judge each independently.

Further, I would recommend that instead of sending this off as the letter of an individual, change all references of "I" into "We", and allow members of this community to join you in a petition by adding their names to it.  A forceful statement from the larger community would be far more powerful, in my opinion.  I realize that there are many people in this community that would not be willing to sign such a petition, but I'm sure there are a number of us that would.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Astro on June 06, 2011, 05:14:30 AM
If you really what to shut him up, ask him how you can contribute to his next campaign using bitcoins.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: kidgorgeous on June 06, 2011, 05:35:36 AM
I want to agree with some of the more tempered responses to this but the truth is the best thing the bitcoin community can do to disprove the money laundering/drug argument against bitcoin is to setup legitimate businesses or get larger companies to accept it. There are already plenty, I've been a customer of several and I encourage more people to use it as I see it as superior to any virtual payment system currently in existence.

However, if all people ever hear about bitcoin is how its a vehicle for laundering drug money they will believe it even if its by a bone headed senator who is simply trying to appeal to the 'law & order' crowd or whatever his half baked motivation is. I highly doubt he has ANY idea of what bitcoin is, how it works or what the goals of the community are. Rather than ask, "Did people create this currency because they're fed up with the wild printing of money by central banks?" or "Are people tired of having to rely on financial institutions that seem like they're run by greedy criminals?" or "Are people sick of the massive amounts data mining, consumer activity analysis that goes on with credit card companies?". He goes with the simple to digest answer of "drugs and money laundering". Cops do this all the time, "what are there all these muggings?" "Oh its drugs!" because categorizing complex socio-economic problems under a rubric like drugs, makes it ok, easy to digest, and utterly banal. The bitcoin community needs to really show its motivations are not nefarious but rather an expression of dissatisfaction with the status quo. For all our sakes.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: sinner on June 06, 2011, 05:40:17 AM
first sentence of article:

"Senator Charles Schumer is asking federal authorities to shut down a secretive narcotics market operated online with anonymous sales and untraceable currency."


is gold.  ;D


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: ThomasV on June 06, 2011, 05:56:21 AM
Drug trafficking IS illegal in the united states. This rich and powerful man now sees drugs and bitcoins as indivisible and mining and trading bitcoins as a criminal offense. He is actively trying to convince his rich and powerful friends of the same directly because of silk road. Silk road is a thread to the bitcoin network and I personally want to see it exterminated.

I agree.

The owner of Silk Road also registered a domain name ; it should be possible to track him from here : http://www.whois.net/whois/silkroadmarket.org
I guess the DEA and journalists already contacted the registrant.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: genjix on June 06, 2011, 06:04:02 AM
This is an absolutely terrible way for Bitcoin to break out. I was at least hoping firstly we were going to see articles about the positives of Bitcoin before we started seeing about the illegal stuff. Everything we've been working on for months has been to protect Bitcoin from attack. Things like this are frightening if this is a prophecy of future news reporting on Bitcoin.

Please be only a one time thing.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Astro on June 06, 2011, 06:11:03 AM
If this is how you guys are going to react to a little bad press, I'd hate to see what happens when a showstopping client bug is found, or some other issue like that.  Seriously, people around the world who are seeing bitcoin as a savior from oppressive government control of the banking system don't give the first shit about Chuck Schumer.

Relax and party on.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: bitcoinBull on June 06, 2011, 06:13:13 AM
I actually agree that drugs should be legal and one should be allowed to ingest anything they please. But what should and shouldn't be has little to do with what IS and ISN'T. Drug trafficking IS illegal in the united states. This rich and powerful man now sees drugs and bitcoins as indivisible and mining and trading bitcoins as a criminal offense. He is actively trying to convince his rich and powerful friends of the same directly because of silk road. Silk road is a thread to the bitcoin network and I personally want to see it exterminated.


Let's put aside the issue that all websites on the internet are not under US jurisdiction (relevant since nobody knows from where SR is hosted), and that the trafficking of certain drugs IS LEGAL in certain states.

If you consider SR a threat to the bitcoin network, where do you stop?  Do you also want to exterminate all bitcoin poker and gambling websites, regardless of where they are hosted, since those are also illegal in the US?  If it wasn't SR, it would be online gambling.

County Police Net $470,000 in Online Gambling Seizure - June 2, 2011 (http://odenton.patch.com/articles/county-police-net-470000-in-online-gambling-seizure)

And if it wasn't online gambling, it would be something else.  Schumer or any other rich and powerful man would have no shortage of justifications to criminalize bitcoins (money laundering, tax evasion, wire fraud, unlicensed securities yada yada, the list goes on and on).  If you want to exterminate every part of the bitcoin network the rich and powerful find threatening, what will be left is no bitcoin network at all.  "First they came..."

The way this will play out is that if they attempt to publicly display total control, until it is completely obvious to everyone that they in fact have none, they will lose all credibility.  To avoid that, they will stop short with ostensible displays of control.  Look at the way Cannabis legalization is playing out: it is bought and sold in plain daylight, in stores in the middle of strip malls, in states around the country.  But it is federally illegal. 

If "they" want to do the same to bitcoin (i.e. illegalize it with ostensible displays of enforcement), there is little chance we can prevent it.  But there is nothing they can do to stop us.

The only thing the bitcoin network has to fear.. is fear itself.





Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 06, 2011, 06:17:13 AM

The pipes and tubes of the interweb belong to the people, they meddle with it at their peril.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Tawsix on June 06, 2011, 06:20:25 AM
Let Chucky throw his tantrum, people who would have been interested in Bitcoin and might not otherwise have heard of it will come aboar, and people who are wary of us "domestic terrorists" don't need Chucky to tell them to be afraid, they've already been prepped and brainwashed.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Fhtagn on June 06, 2011, 08:14:24 AM
This is my first draft of a letter to Mr. Schumer. Any suggestions/critiques?

Well written; similar in tone and content to my recent bucket of emails to various Senators and Representatives.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Anonymous on June 06, 2011, 08:21:59 AM
Whoever owns the silkroad domain should redirect it to the donation page of erowid.org - which accepts bitcoins. I think that would be a statement without actually reacting to the dickheads.

http://www.erowid.org/donations/donations_bitcoin.php (http://www.erowid.org/donations/donations_bitcoin.php)

The tor site shouldnt be affected.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Steve on June 06, 2011, 08:29:39 AM
This is an absolutely terrible way for Bitcoin to break out. I was at least hoping firstly we were going to see articles about the positives of Bitcoin before we started seeing about the illegal stuff. Everything we've been working on for months has been to protect Bitcoin from attack. Things like this are frightening if this is a prophecy of future news reporting on Bitcoin.

Please be only a one time thing.

I talk about bitcoin a lot in my circle of friends...I do it not because I want to convince them to use bitcoins (although that would be great), but because I want to prepare them for the inevitable propaganda against bitcoin that the banksters and their politicians will spread.  This was only a matter of time and everyone should have expected it, but people armed with the truth won't be so convinced by such propaganda.  I suggest people do likewise with their friends...the more people that know someone that is using bitcoins for honest and legal trade, the less likely it is that bitcoin will suffer at the hands of politicians (of course, in the long run, I believe bitcoin survives regardless...it's just 5 or 10 years of hassle I'd like to avoid so that we can get on with inventing the future).


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: kleek on June 06, 2011, 11:02:59 AM
there already is another .onion drug market that accepts Bitcoin

http://g7pz322wcy6jnn4r.onion/opensource/ovdb/ac/index.php

it has been around since about the same time as Silk Road. Vendors take more than bitcoin, some take liberty reserve and tons of other payment methods.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Gavin Andresen on June 06, 2011, 11:35:38 AM
Ian:

Great letter! I agree that the "stop campaigning for bitcoin's destruction" message might backfire, and the message should be "we're an innocent bystander here." You might even offer to help law enforcement better understand bitcoin so they can develop tools and techniques to catch criminals who use it.


I've been thinking of how to react to this story, and am tempted to appeal to people's greed/fear with a message of "your country may miss out on a huge new opportunity and be left behind if you try to stamp out innovative new technologies like bitcoin."


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Phenomenon on June 06, 2011, 12:00:31 PM
Ian:

Great letter! I agree that the "stop campaigning for bitcoin's destruction" message might backfire, and the message should be "we're an innocent bystander here." You might even offer to help law enforcement better understand bitcoin so they can develop tools and techniques to catch criminals who use it.


I've been thinking of how to react to this story, and am tempted to appeal to people's greed/fear with a message of "your country may miss out on a huge new opportunity and be left behind if you try to stamp out innovative new technologies like bitcoin."

If law enforcement can develop tools and techniques to catch criminals using bitcoin they will have effectively proved that bitcoin's implementation does not provide adequate anonymity or security. Whether or not you agree with what certain people do with bitcoin, it's purpose is to prevent ANY central authority from having control over the financial system.  This includes governments.  If a government has a way to prevent, manipulate, or track transactions at will, then bitcoin will have no purpose whatsoever.

However, if law enforcement attempts to develop such tools and techniques to track down "criminals" and do not succeed, it will only reinforce trust in the bitcoin implementation.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: matonis on June 06, 2011, 12:05:10 PM
...and the message should be "we're an innocent bystander here."


+1  Definitely, the correct approach. In the end, bitcoin's resilience will be proven with or without certain types of transactions. Money does not make any statement on morality. An "innocent" payment system cannot be held accountable anymore than an "innocent" $100 bill can be held accountable. Unfortunately, payment systems are unfairly attacked because it is the path of least resistance for enforcement, as in the case of the recent US online poker shutdown. Digital tracking tends to make this easier when money is involved.

However, the benefit to society as a whole, and ultimately our freedom, requires that we maintain efficient payment systems, efficient telephone networks, and efficient postal networks, even if those same networks are used for things that certain people oppose.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 06, 2011, 12:08:14 PM
Quote
I've been thinking of how to react to this story, and am tempted to appeal to people's greed/fear with a message of "your country may miss out on a huge new opportunity and be left behind if you try to stamp out innovative new technologies like bitcoin."

This is a plain fact that should be obvious.
They need to consult with some "trusted" Silicon Valley vets if they cannot see this.

Worth repeating for sure, but it may be a case of "there are none so deaf as those who do not wish to hear", I hope not.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: matonis on June 06, 2011, 12:14:37 PM
However, if law enforcement attempts to develop such tools and techniques to track down "criminals" and do not succeed, it will only reinforce trust in the bitcoin implementation.


+1  I have been thinking this exact thought. A few may be prosecuted, as with copyright infringement, because they posted their "one and only" bitcoin address on their blog or Facebook page.  Ultimately, this episode will result in a greater understanding of how to practice safe bitcoining.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Timo Y on June 06, 2011, 12:16:59 PM
If law enforcement can develop tools and techniques to catch criminals using bitcoin they will have effectively proved that bitcoin's implementation does not provide adequate anonymity or security.

I disagree.

Just like Tor, bitcoin can never be 100% anonymous. An investigation team with enough manpower and time on its hands can track down any bitcoin user, with one exception: The bitcoin user who never spends a single bitcent in his wallet.dat.  But what use are bitcoins if you can't spend them?

However it is anonymous enough for most people going about their daily honest business.  Discovering the identity of bitcoin users takes a large amount of resources, so governemnt will only ever bother going after serious criminals, while ordinary people can enjoy the benefits of financial privacy.


Quote
Whether or not you agree with what certain people do with bitcoin, it's purpose is to prevent ANY central authority from having control over the financial system.  This includes governments.  If a government has a way to prevent, manipulate, or track transactions at will, then bitcoin will have no purpose whatsoever.

They can't control Bitcoin itself. All they can do is prevent selected individuals from spending their bitcoins using traditional police work.



Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: benjamindees on June 06, 2011, 12:22:21 PM
Bitcoin is equivalent to cash.

Refer to him as "The Senator from Wall Street" a few times.

No other response is really necessary.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: beeph on June 06, 2011, 12:24:21 PM
I can see it now... untouchables raiding poor hicks in the south... is that a 5800x gpu i see?
BIT-LEGGERS!!! smash the BIT-STILL!!



Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Phenomenon on June 06, 2011, 12:37:31 PM
If law enforcement can develop tools and techniques to catch criminals using bitcoin they will have effectively proved that bitcoin's implementation does not provide adequate anonymity or security.

I disagree.

Just like Tor, bitcoin can never be 100% anonymous. An investigation team with enough manpower and time on its hands can track down any bitcoin user, with one exception: The bitcoin user who never spends a single bitcent in his wallet.dat.  But what use are bitcoins if you can't spend them?

However it is anonymous enough for most people going about their daily honest business.  Discovering the identity of bitcoin users takes a large amount of resources, so governemnt will only ever bother going after serious criminals, while ordinary people can enjoy the benefits of financial privacy.


Quote
Whether or not you agree with what certain people do with bitcoin, it's purpose is to prevent ANY central authority from having control over the financial system.  This includes governments.  If a government has a way to prevent, manipulate, or track transactions at will, then bitcoin will have no purpose whatsoever.

They can't control Bitcoin itself. All they can do is prevent selected individuals from spending their bitcoins using traditional police work.



If bitcoin performs as intended, then a bitcoin user who takes the proper precautions should be as difficult to track down as someone who uses cash.   Obviously with enough time, manpower, and resources, it is possible for a government to track down anyone doing anything.  However if it turns out that bitcoin itself can be used as a tool by the government to efficiently find "serious criminals", then it is not performing as intended.  

If they (a government, large organization, etc) can "prevent selected individuals from spending their bitcoins" as well as track transactions they disapprove of, then what advantage does bitcoin provide except a hedge against inflation?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: airdata on June 06, 2011, 12:38:30 PM
I don't know how much letters work.  Special interests own a huge stake in policy making.

Also...if they try to spin this money laundering idea, wouldn't they also have to go after paypal?  I've wondered in the past how many people use ebay/paypal to launder money.

If you goto advanced search and look at completed items, you'll see a ton of rediculous listings.. .like $5000 iphones, $500 gift cards selling for $1000, etc.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: kokjo on June 06, 2011, 12:44:28 PM
I actually agree that drugs should be legal and one should be allowed to ingest anything they please. But what should and shouldn't be has little to do with what IS and ISN'T. Drug trafficking IS illegal in the united states. This rich and powerful man now sees drugs and bitcoins as indivisible and mining and trading bitcoins as a criminal offense. He is actively trying to convince his rich and powerful friends of the same directly because of silk road. Silk road is a thread to the bitcoin network and I personally want to see it exterminated.

How about focusing on exterminating these rich and powerful people?
the rich and powerful people are old and they will be extinct in the next 10 years.
we who possess bitcoins will be the new rich and powerful people :D 


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: stic.man on June 06, 2011, 12:48:59 PM
I like the idea of offering campaign contribution in bitcoins (if it were legal)


Very difficult to say no to money, one thing all politicians have in common

I would imagine it's difficult to find a candidate that does not have traditional banking friends in high places though.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 06, 2011, 12:52:13 PM
I like the idea of offering campaign contribution in bitcoins (if it were legal)


Very difficult to say no to money, one thing all politicians have in common

I would imagine it's difficult to find a candidate that does not have traditional banking friends in high places though.


Campaign contributions could be made completely anonymously with bitcoin.

Perhaps this is what has got the senator excited with the possibilities?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: stic.man on June 06, 2011, 12:55:05 PM
I like the idea of offering campaign contribution in bitcoins (if it were legal)


Very difficult to say no to money, one thing all politicians have in common

I would imagine it's difficult to find a candidate that does not have traditional banking friends in high places though.


Campaign contributions could be made completely anonymously with bitcoin.

Perhaps this is what has got the senator excited with the possibilities?

Oh yeah, you brought up exactly why it might be a problem legally.  Thanks.

Maybe you'd have to sign a waiver saying that was your address and your BTC you just sent.  Even then I don't know how you would verify that.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: AllYourBase on June 06, 2011, 01:36:06 PM
Ian:

Great letter! I agree that the "stop campaigning for bitcoin's destruction" message might backfire, and the message should be "we're an innocent bystander here." You might even offer to help law enforcement better understand bitcoin so they can develop tools and techniques to catch criminals who use it.


I've been thinking of how to react to this story, and am tempted to appeal to people's greed/fear with a message of "your country may miss out on a huge new opportunity and be left behind if you try to stamp out innovative new technologies like bitcoin."

If you're stance is seriously to encourage "help[ing] law enforcement better understand bitcoin so they can develop tools and techniques to catch criminals who use it.", then you are a threat to the idea of bitcoin.  How can I have any confidence at all that you are not attempting to put some sort of backdoors into the client to monitor and track people who use bitcoin?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: matonis on June 06, 2011, 01:51:29 PM
If they (a government, large organization, etc) can "prevent selected individuals from spending their bitcoins" as well as track transactions they disapprove of, then what advantage does bitcoin provide except a hedge against inflation?


I agree. If bitcoins only purpose/advantage is as an inflation-hedge, there are numerous things that would serve that function. The major differentiator, in fact the only differentiator that will have a significant impact on economic growth and taxation policy, is bitcoin's potential for user-determined anonymity and untracability.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: AtlasONo on June 06, 2011, 01:54:14 PM
This should come as no surprise due to the very public nature of silk road.

You mess with the bull you get the horns.  ::)


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: matonis on June 06, 2011, 01:55:56 PM
Ian:

Great letter! I agree that the "stop campaigning for bitcoin's destruction" message might backfire, and the message should be "we're an innocent bystander here." You might even offer to help law enforcement better understand bitcoin so they can develop tools and techniques to catch criminals who use it.


If you're stance is seriously to encourage "help[ing] law enforcement better understand bitcoin so they can develop tools and techniques to catch criminals who use it.", then you are a threat to the idea of bitcoin.  How can I have any confidence at all that you are not attempting to put some sort of backdoors into the client to monitor and track people who use bitcoin?

I don't think that is what Gavin meant, because education works both ways.  For instance, you can point out the ridiculousness of relying on the bitcoin block explorer because bitcoin (private keys) can be exchanged offline on USB sticks or BitBills. Also, education on 'remailer' and 'mixers' would demonstrate to law enforcement that it is impractical to rely on the block chain.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: AtlasONo on June 06, 2011, 01:56:11 PM

I agree. If bitcoins only purpose/advantage is as an inflation-hedge, there are numerous things that would serve that function. The major differentiator, in fact the only differentiator that will have a significant impact on economic growth and taxation policy, is bitcoin's potential for user-determined anonymity and untracability.

ie: mostly illegal activity


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: matonis on June 06, 2011, 02:09:47 PM

I agree. If bitcoins only purpose/advantage is as an inflation-hedge, there are numerous things that would serve that function. The major differentiator, in fact the only differentiator that will have a significant impact on economic growth and taxation policy, is bitcoin's potential for user-determined anonymity and untracability.

ie: mostly illegal activity

Not true...people use these all the time to buy groceries and to go on vacation, restaurants, etc.   http://bit.ly/k3rDSO


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mewantsbitcoins on June 06, 2011, 02:11:51 PM
Ian:

Great letter! I agree that the "stop campaigning for bitcoin's destruction" message might backfire, and the message should be "we're an innocent bystander here." You might even offer to help law enforcement better understand bitcoin so they can develop tools and techniques to catch criminals who use it.


If you're stance is seriously to encourage "help[ing] law enforcement better understand bitcoin so they can develop tools and techniques to catch criminals who use it.", then you are a threat to the idea of bitcoin.  How can I have any confidence at all that you are not attempting to put some sort of backdoors into the client to monitor and track people who use bitcoin?

I don't think that is what Gavin meant, because education works both ways.  For instance, you can point out the ridiculousness of relying on the bitcoin block explorer because bitcoin (private keys) can be exchanged offline on USB sticks or BitBills. Also, education on 'remailer' and 'mixers' would demonstrate to law enforcement that it is impractical to rely on the block chain.

Furthermore, I don't think any of us would mind helping law enforcement or in fact anyone to help and find real criminals behind real crimes. Bitcoin is not anonymous - you have to go to great lengths to make it such. Now power to decide who gets caught and who doesn't is tilting to the rightful owner - honest and rational people. Not some bribed politicians or criminals on wallstreet.
Intel community is very good at catching real criminals and there are numerous examples of it


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Phenomenon on June 06, 2011, 02:16:50 PM
ie: mostly illegal activity

The point of bitcoin is to have freedom from a central authority.  Regardless of how that is used, that is it's main advantage.  If you don't have that, then you might as well continue using government issued currencies or silver and gold, because BTC doesn't offer any other significant advantages that I am aware of.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: kokjo on June 06, 2011, 02:18:56 PM
ie: mostly illegal activity

The point of bitcoin is to have freedom from a central authority.  Regardless of how that is used, that is it's main advantage.  If you don't have that, then you might as well continue using government issued currencies or silver and gold, because BTC doesn't offer any other significant advantages that I am aware of.
low fees for money transfering. :)


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: AtlasONo on June 06, 2011, 02:19:32 PM
Quote from: matonis

Not true...people use these all the time to buy groceries and to go on vacation, restaurants, etc.   http://bit.ly/k3rDSO

ie:Bitcoin will succeed because it's just like cash


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: AllYourBase on June 06, 2011, 02:21:39 PM
Ian:

Great letter! I agree that the "stop campaigning for bitcoin's destruction" message might backfire, and the message should be "we're an innocent bystander here." You might even offer to help law enforcement better understand bitcoin so they can develop tools and techniques to catch criminals who use it.


If you're stance is seriously to encourage "help[ing] law enforcement better understand bitcoin so they can develop tools and techniques to catch criminals who use it.", then you are a threat to the idea of bitcoin.  How can I have any confidence at all that you are not attempting to put some sort of backdoors into the client to monitor and track people who use bitcoin?

I don't think that is what Gavin meant, because education works both ways.  For instance, you can point out the ridiculousness of relying on the bitcoin block explorer because bitcoin (private keys) can be exchanged offline on USB sticks or BitBills. Also, education on 'remailer' and 'mixers' would demonstrate to law enforcement that it is impractical to rely on the block chain.

That's a fair point.  If the intent is to stop the po po from picking up the wrong guy due to misunderstanding how bitcoin works, I could see that.  Perhaps it's just how I read it the first time, that it seemed a little too friendly to law enforcement. 


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Sawzall on June 06, 2011, 02:41:31 PM
"They use names that you can't trace, they don't put their names on the site."
I lol'd.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: n0m4d on June 06, 2011, 02:49:09 PM
Obviously with enough time, manpower, and resources, it is possible for a government to track down anyone doing anything.

Let's round up everyone thinking of the color blue.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Gavin Andresen on June 06, 2011, 02:55:08 PM
urthermore, I don't think any of us would mind helping law enforcement or in fact anyone to help and find real criminals behind real crimes. Bitcoin is not anonymous - you have to go to great lengths to make it such.
Exactly right. I will to do what I can to help the police catch scammers and crooks who want to steal from people.  The police might use those same tools and techniques to help catch people who use bitcoin to pay for drugs; I can't stop them from doing that.

I personally don't think drugs or gambling should be illegal, because I believe you should be free to do whatever you like with your own body and your own money. But I also believe those are separate issues from bitcoin, and if I felt really strongly about it (it isn't one of my own personal hot-button issues) I would be donating money to, or volunteering to work for LEAP and NORML, not mixing "bitcoin is a great new technology" with "drugs should be legal."


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: n0m4d on June 06, 2011, 02:56:31 PM
You might even offer to help law enforcement better understand bitcoin so they can develop tools and techniques to catch criminals who use it.

Best rebuttal:

And when governments world-wide make bitcoin illegal because of the threat it represents to central banking, will your head explode from the irony?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Phenomenon on June 06, 2011, 03:02:20 PM
You might even offer to help law enforcement better understand bitcoin so they can develop tools and techniques to catch criminals who use it.

Best rebuttal:

And when governments world-wide make bitcoin illegal because of the threat it represents to central banking, will your head explode from the irony?

Exactly.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Phenomenon on June 06, 2011, 03:09:31 PM
urthermore, I don't think any of us would mind helping law enforcement or in fact anyone to help and find real criminals behind real crimes. Bitcoin is not anonymous - you have to go to great lengths to make it such.
Exactly right. I will to do what I can to help the police catch scammers and crooks who want to steal from people.  The police might use those same tools and techniques to help catch people who use bitcoin to pay for drugs; I can't stop them from doing that.

I personally don't think drugs or gambling should be illegal, because I believe you should be free to do whatever you like with your own body and your own money. But I also believe those are separate issues from bitcoin, and if I felt really strongly about it (it isn't one of my own personal hot-button issues) I would be donating money to, or volunteering to work for LEAP and NORML, not mixing "bitcoin is a great new technology" with "drugs should be legal."


And please do tell who gets to decide what a real crime is?  Murder? Drugs? Money laundering? Tax evasion? Using illegal currencies?

You should definitely help those police catch people using illegal currencies.  After all that is domestic terrorism: http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/03/22/starting-a-new-currency-is-%E2%80%9Cdomestic-terrorism%E2%80%9D (http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/03/22/starting-a-new-currency-is-%E2%80%9Cdomestic-terrorism%E2%80%9D) .


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: gigitrix on June 06, 2011, 03:18:28 PM
http://i.imgur.com/NyYi2.gif

The next few months are going to be very interesting...


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mewantsbitcoins on June 06, 2011, 03:21:32 PM
And please do tell who gets to decide what a real crime is?  Murder? Drugs? Money laundering? Tax evasion? Using illegal currencies?

You should definitely help those police catch people using illegal currencies.  After all that is domestic terrorism: http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/03/22/starting-a-new-currency-is-%E2%80%9Cdomestic-terrorism%E2%80%9D (http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/03/22/starting-a-new-currency-is-%E2%80%9Cdomestic-terrorism%E2%80%9D) .

It is very simple. Only one rule in life - don't to others what you don't want done to you, o be prepared to face the same.
Hurting another is a crime. Me doing drugs at the privacy of my own home is none of anybody's business


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: xf2_org on June 06, 2011, 03:26:58 PM
I've been thinking of how to react to this story, and am tempted to appeal to people's greed/fear with a message of "your country may miss out on a huge new opportunity and be left behind if you try to stamp out innovative new technologies like bitcoin."

That's what I've been thinking:  point out how crypto export was outlawed until the mid-1990s.  Then point out how, due to government regulations, American crypto was crippled (40 bit limit) while others had (a) better crypto and (b) crypto development moved outside the US.

This was sensibly fixed when Bill Clinton reclassified crypto software as something other than weapons grade munitions, triggering the dot-com boom.  Amazon.com, Mint.com, Paypal/ebay and other Internet notables might be outside America, had Clinton not made that change.

The message:  outlaw it, and everyone but you gets to play with a new, innovative technology.



Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: AbeSkray on June 06, 2011, 03:39:58 PM
I don't know how much letters work.  Special interests own a huge stake in policy making.

Also...if they try to spin this money laundering idea, wouldn't they also have to go after paypal?  I've wondered in the past how many people use ebay/paypal to launder money.

Yeah, I don't think that illegal drug trade via mail is an incredibly new idea. I can't help but think of this one-liner by the late Mitch Hedberg (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mitch_Hedberg):
Quote from: Mitch Hedberg
I love my fed-ex guy cause he's a drug dealer and he doesn't even know it...and he's always on time.

Silk Road and Bitcoin just make it easier to do the things we already did. Just like Amazon and PayPal did for legal goods that we used to order via catalog.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: matonis on June 06, 2011, 04:01:49 PM
Quote from: matonis

Not true...people use these all the time to buy groceries and to go on vacation, restaurants, etc.   http://bit.ly/k3rDSO

ie:Bitcoin will succeed because it's just like cash

Exactly. And, no one gets to decide what is a 'moral transaction' and what is a 'real crime'. Transaction done.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: cloud9 on June 06, 2011, 04:09:53 PM
Maybe all of the estimated 600,000 average daily visitors to bitcoin.org ( http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12574.msg174344#msg174344 ) is " ... cool, webby, free, and niche ..." (May 18, 2011 http://www.slate.com/id/2294980 ), or " ... criminals, online poker players, tax-evaders, pornographers, drug dealers, and other unsavory types tired of carrying around a Vermeer ... " (May 18, 2011 http://www.slate.com/id/2294980 ) or now Silk Road customers (June 5, 2011 http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/technology/silk-road-the-ebay-for-narcotics-57274.html )?  Or maybe most of them just want a universal, user friendly, medium of exchange (June 6, 2011 https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade ) for their goods/services/credits/contracts/other?  Doesn't the media just love sensation and shouldn't we just get over that?

Wouldn't it do Bitcoin very good if Silk Road can be sniffed out through the blockchain where just one misstep were taken by them or one of their customers?  Wouldn't the investigation surely be easier than an investigation where conventional cash transactions took place?

And really, isn't the Bitcoin market place distancing itself from all illegal trade (at least in the US and Japan https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade ), and don't you need to be actively laundering Bitcoins to launder Bitcoins as the bitcoin.org Bitcoin client / system doesn't do this for you?

So isn't Bitcoins a tool like anything else in life that can be used for good (very good - near instant, frictionless transfers, spanning the globe of a digital medium of exchange) or bad (very bad - in this instance distributing drugs that are destroying people's children's lives, etc., etc.)?

Doesn't Bitcoin in its standard form (you can prove with the blockchain where you got it from) provide no anonymity - and isn't it actually very, very transparent?  If you launder Bitcoins (you can not prove where you got it from) however - that's another story?

Doesn't cash in its standard form (you can prove with receipts where you got it from) provide no anonymity?  If you launder cash (you can not prove where you got it from) however - that's another story?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Gavin Andresen on June 06, 2011, 06:06:56 PM
I wrote a blog post about this:
  http://gavinthink.blogspot.com/2011/06/but-you-can-use-it-to-buy-drugs.html


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: alkor on June 06, 2011, 06:40:02 PM
If it wasn't for Silk Road, they would have found another excuse to clamp down on Bitcoin. The true reason as to why they will be doing it is the threat that Bitcoin presents to the government monopoly on the issue of money. But of course they will never say that - instead they will look for excuses to shut it down such as money laundering, child pornography, and all kinds of other outrageous things that they will have no trouble convincing the general population to accept.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: n0m4d on June 06, 2011, 06:41:10 PM
I will to do what I can to help the police catch scammers and crooks who want to steal from people.  The police might use those same tools and techniques to help catch people who use bitcoin to pay for drugs; I can't stop them from doing that.

Maybe it's too Libertarian Hipster of me, but man, I don't like the idea of giving succor to the guy with the stick.

Why help law enforcement when you could help the community do its own policing?

I would rather the market solve this, than the BTC community have its own Jose Guerena.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Anonymous on June 06, 2011, 06:42:07 PM
Gavin has to be a conforming, tax-paying adult for the sake of the project. Leave him be.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Terpie on June 06, 2011, 06:48:57 PM
Gavin has to be a conforming, tax-paying adult for the sake of the project. Leave him be.


Agreed. For now, we must get as large as possible as fast as possible. Gavin being open, honest, and forthcoming while he steers the narrative will help to delay any government intervention. Our size is our strength, and I'm not convinced we're big enough at present to survive the efforts of the world's largest superpower.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: dissipate on June 06, 2011, 06:55:18 PM
Gavin has to be a conforming, tax-paying adult for the sake of the project. Leave him be.


Gavin is a figurehead at this point. However, if he can placate the terrorcrats for awhile to allow the network to strengthen, then that's good.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: hazek on June 06, 2011, 06:57:03 PM
I will to do what I can to help the police catch scammers and crooks who want to steal from people.  The police might use those same tools and techniques to help catch people who use bitcoin to pay for drugs; I can't stop them from doing that.

I'm just wondering does this include any sort of modification to the client especially such which would give the LEAs special privileges?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: gene on June 06, 2011, 07:20:57 PM
For immediate release.

Bitcoin enables small and medium sized business compete more effectively in today's fierce market.

Accepting bitcoin will give a business a considerable advantage when considering credit card fees and could well make the difference between a successful business and a failed one. This all translates to more jobs for Americans at a time when we need more innovation to rebuild our economy. These jobs, especially in the tech industries are crucial, and will spur on the development of new industries - including green technology, which America will require as it advances out of the current recession and into the future.

something to start with...


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: ene on June 06, 2011, 07:26:25 PM
Exactly right. I will to do what I can to help the police catch scammers and crooks who want to steal from people.  The police might use those same tools and techniques to help catch people who use bitcoin to pay for drugs; I can't stop them from doing that.

Are you saying you would want to work on "coin un-mixers", software that attempts to reduce the effectiveness of coin mixers? (Using statistical analyses on the public data of the block chain.)


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: gigitrix on June 06, 2011, 07:30:56 PM
Exactly right. I will to do what I can to help the police catch scammers and crooks who want to steal from people.  The police might use those same tools and techniques to help catch people who use bitcoin to pay for drugs; I can't stop them from doing that.

Are you saying you would want to work on "coin un-mixers", software that attempts to reduce the effectiveness of coin mixers? (Using statistical analyses on the public data of the block chain.)

He's not saying he wants to explicitly work in that field. He'll just explain bitcoin to interested parties (a good thing, since they get the real story, not the ZOMG think of the children version) and explain how the protocol works. If the FBI decided to use their knowledge of bitcoin from this to make such a "coin un-mixer" then that isn't Gavin's fault: he merely gave the gift of knowledge, much as many of you forum posters did to everyone here who came in asking questions and needing help understanding bitcoin.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Anonymous on June 06, 2011, 07:33:15 PM
Haha coin unmixers. That's funny.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: minerX on June 06, 2011, 07:36:10 PM
WAIT.... Can I buy slaves??  Me want.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: kokjo on June 06, 2011, 07:40:54 PM
Exactly right. I will to do what I can to help the police catch scammers and crooks who want to steal from people.  The police might use those same tools and techniques to help catch people who use bitcoin to pay for drugs; I can't stop them from doing that.

Are you saying you would want to work on "coin un-mixers", software that attempts to reduce the effectiveness of coin mixers? (Using statistical analyses on the public data of the block chain.)
it could me done by mixing a large amount of btc in the mixer, so others will mix to your btc, insted of anonymous ones


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: xf2_org on June 06, 2011, 07:42:20 PM
I know it dismays a lot of hardcore crypto-anarchists on this forum, but I am a happy, law abiding, tax paying US citizen :)  And I think bitcoin's best path to success will be to work within existing government regulations.

The vast majority of businesses we want accepting bitcoins are law-abiding businesses, as are the vast majority of people in the world.

If you believe that bitcoin is monetary freedom, as I do, then you don't want to self-select yourself away from the law-abiding world.  I want to spread bitcoin to as many people as possible... not "as many crypto-anarchists as possible"  :)

Sure, there will be setbacks from entrenched interests, but the best way to fight that is to be positive and help build the bitcoin economy.  Soon, the entrenched interests will be joining our economy.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Anonymous on June 06, 2011, 07:45:30 PM
And I think bitcoin's best path to success will be to work within existing government regulations.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mEm9zpqSwtY/TbIcQDFaxLI/AAAAAAAABbA/ZjtcbEI1qDI/s1600/middle-finger.jpg


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: kokjo on June 06, 2011, 07:46:09 PM
I know it dismays a lot of hardcore crypto-anarchists on this forum, but I am a happy, law abiding, tax paying US citizen :)  And I think bitcoin's best path to success will be to work within existing government regulations.

The vast majority of businesses we want accepting bitcoins are law-abiding businesses, as are the vast majority of people in the world.

If you believe that bitcoin is monetary freedom, as I do, then you don't want to self-select yourself away from the law-abiding world.  I want to spread bitcoin to as many people as possible... not "as many crypto-anarchists as possible"  :)


the problem rises when they change the law, or decides interpreted it in another way.
i would also be a tax paying citizen if i earnd something, but im not earning anything, im in school.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Nekrobios on June 06, 2011, 07:54:38 PM

Sure, there will be setbacks from entrenched interests, but the best way to fight that is to be positive and help build the bitcoin economy.  Soon, the entrenched interests will be joining our economy.
Please do explain how you could ever have a full Bitcoin economy (not relying on an exchange rate) if spending Bitcoins is only going to hurt financially.

Honestly, I view Bitcoin more as a future store of value (encrypted wallet copied everywhere, easily redeemable, easy to acquire etc.) than a currency, just like precious metals. It will probably only be adopted as a currency in areas where it has critical advantages (where you practically *need* Bitcoin), not just "low transaction fees fees, no chargebacks, no middlemen". Hence Silk Road.

I would love to be wrong though.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Phenomenon on June 06, 2011, 07:56:43 PM
I know it dismays a lot of hardcore crypto-anarchists on this forum, but I am a happy, law abiding, tax paying US citizen :)  And I think bitcoin's best path to success will be to work within existing government regulations.

The vast majority of businesses we want accepting bitcoins are law-abiding businesses, as are the vast majority of people in the world.

If you believe that bitcoin is monetary freedom, as I do, then you don't want to self-select yourself away from the law-abiding world.  I want to spread bitcoin to as many people as possible... not "as many crypto-anarchists as possible"  :)

Sure, there will be setbacks from entrenched interests, but the best way to fight that is to be positive and help build the bitcoin economy.  Soon, the entrenched interests will be joining our economy.

Perhaps you should consider using USD.  It is an interesting currency which makes it very easy to comply with all US government regulations.  After all bitcoin will most likely be deemed an illegal currency in the coming months and you wouldn't want to be involved in something like that.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Anonymous on June 06, 2011, 07:59:00 PM
I know it dismays a lot of hardcore crypto-anarchists on this forum, but I am a happy, law abiding, tax paying US citizen :)  And I think bitcoin's best path to success will be to work within existing government regulations.

The vast majority of businesses we want accepting bitcoins are law-abiding businesses, as are the vast majority of people in the world.

If you believe that bitcoin is monetary freedom, as I do, then you don't want to self-select yourself away from the law-abiding world.  I want to spread bitcoin to as many people as possible... not "as many crypto-anarchists as possible"  :)

Sure, there will be setbacks from entrenched interests, but the best way to fight that is to be positive and help build the bitcoin economy.  Soon, the entrenched interests will be joining our economy.
...you wouldn't want to be involved in something like that.
Oh, yes, we wouldn't want to displease our duly elected representatives who absolutely act in our will. We can't be insubordinate against the sacred system known as democratic law. May all reason forbid someone keep Bitcoins when they are deemed unacceptable by our government.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Bit_Happy on June 06, 2011, 07:59:08 PM
WAIT.... Can I buy slaves??  Me want.

You might need to visit a used Karma salesman.   :D


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Goldenmaw on June 06, 2011, 08:01:11 PM
Reading this, and thinking about what this kind of rhetorical will set into motion, makes me wonder if the only way for bitcoin to survive and be exchanged in America, is for bitcoins themselves to fall under government regulation of some sort.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Anonymous on June 06, 2011, 08:02:21 PM
...bitcoins themselves to fall under government regulation of some sort.
Impossible. For it to be successfully regulated is for it to be completed bastardized in concept and utility.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: kokjo on June 06, 2011, 08:02:55 PM
Reading this, and thinking about what this kind of rhetorical will set into motion, makes me wonder if the only way for bitcoin to survive and be exchanged in America, is for bitcoins themselves to fall under government regulation of some sort.
Agrees with Atlas:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mEm9zpqSwtY/TbIcQDFaxLI/AAAAAAAABbA/ZjtcbEI1qDI/s1600/middle-finger.jpg


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: shady financier on June 06, 2011, 08:05:52 PM
I propose we make a donation to the Senator. He's really gone all out to put bitcoin on the map to make sure that both law-ignorers and law-observers alike become more aware of bitcoin and it's simply not fair that such effort go unrewarded.

He stressed bitcoins qualities, it's strengths and security, its untraceability (although to be fair he should have stressed that you have to put some effort in for that). It's a good thing he done.

Senator Schumer Donation Address Here:

1G8AUgSTAw8hfatNnDHuYEqBAUzC3qvAAL


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: kokjo on June 06, 2011, 08:08:19 PM
I propose we make a donation to the Senator. He's really gone all out to put bitcoin on the map to make sure law-ignorers become aware of bitcoin and it's simply not fair that such effort go unrewarded.

Senator Schumer Donation Address Here:

1G8AUgSTAw8hfatNnDHuYEqBAUzC3qvAAL
smelling scam here! its better to make a respected member take care of a donation. :D


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Timo Y on June 06, 2011, 08:29:30 PM
I know it dismays a lot of hardcore crypto-anarchists on this forum, but I am a happy, law abiding, tax paying US citizen :)  And I think bitcoin's best path to success will be to work within existing government regulations.

The same way that air travel's path to success was to work within existing regulations? (before manned flight was invented, people owned all airspace above their land).

No, regulations will need to adapt to new technologies. Not the other way around.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: liberty on June 06, 2011, 08:35:01 PM
No, regulations will need to adapt to new technologies. Not the other way around.
It's inevitable.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: cloud9 on June 06, 2011, 08:35:44 PM
Can't even paypal be used for laundering?  If Sam buys socks for John, and John buys drugs for Sam at Silk Road by paying Silk Road's Skype account, haven't they just been laundering paypal credit?  Should paypal be banned if it enables people to buy drugs anonymously?  Or should paypal credit laundering be banned?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: vragnaroda on June 06, 2011, 08:42:16 PM
You guys are blowing this out of all proportion. Chuck Schumer is the biggest blowhard in the U.S. Senate. No one takes him seriously and he doesn't stay focused on much long. Bitcoin is not Four Loko, which had a major pressure point he could push on and he doesn't have the attention span to keep pressure on anything for very long. If you keep him focused on it, he will make a much bigger deal out of it and more of your tax dollars will be wasted (and not just U.S. taxes, b/c other governments will cooperate on this).

tl;dr Just ignore him and he'll go away (unless he keeps getting drawn back by more Gawker bullshit).


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Dobrodav on June 06, 2011, 08:48:43 PM
Ia am somehow surprised. Did it really needed that some senator show of, to fight  narcotics store ?
Thats usual business off corresponded departments.
No, i am think that something wrong, and his target is exactly bitcoin by itself.
Why he did not bothered with opiates farms in Afghanistan, that is under US control (if US did not lie about it, lol)  ?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: vragnaroda on June 06, 2011, 08:52:57 PM
.
Why he did not bothered with opiates farms in Afghanistan, that is under US control (if US did not lie about it, lol)  ?

Because he can't admit to such a thing while Chocolate Jesus is president.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: cloud9 on June 06, 2011, 08:55:09 PM
Can't even paypal be used for laundering?  If Sam buys socks for John, and John buys drugs for Sam at Silk Road by paying Silk Road's Skype account, haven't they just been laundering paypal credit?  Should paypal be banned if it enables people to buy drugs anonymously?  Or should paypal credit laundering be banned?

How is there a connection between Sam and John on paypal?  If Sam paid socks - and it's proxy delivered to John how does paypal know about the connection between Sam and John?  If John pays for a Skype number's credit and hand the password to Silk Road and Silk Road delivers drugs to Sam, how does paypal know about the connection between Silk Road and Sam?

Isn't the problem with laundering bitcoins, and not with bitcoins?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Ivanish on June 06, 2011, 08:58:17 PM
http://schumer.senate.gov/new_website/contactchuck.cfm


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: shady financier on June 06, 2011, 09:07:25 PM
.
Why he did not bothered with opiates farms in Afghanistan, that is under US control (if US did not lie about it, lol)  ?

Because he can't admit to such a thing while Chocolate Jesus is president.

Is it your intention to be racially offensive or what?



Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: BitcoinStars.com on June 06, 2011, 09:11:03 PM
   
senator charles schumer suck on a log


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: cloud9 on June 06, 2011, 09:11:41 PM
If you are biased and you generalize by attributing to a group, a subgroup or individual's actions:

Are you racist if you are biased based on race?
Are you sexist if you are biased based on gender?
.
.
.
.
etc., etc.,

What will you be if you generalize by saying bitcoiners are launderers, when only a subgroup of bitcoiners are laundering bitcoins?  Could you be dubbed a bitcoinist?

Will each of the possible roughly estimated 600,000 world wide bitcoiners ( http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12574.msg174344#msg174344 ) appreciate a statement like that?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: vragnaroda on June 06, 2011, 09:17:06 PM

Is it your intention to be racially offensive or what?



What? Have you missed every bit of media coverage of him since 2004?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mewantsbitcoins on June 06, 2011, 09:29:45 PM
You are all mad cause I'm black


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 06, 2011, 09:43:16 PM
urthermore, I don't think any of us would mind helping law enforcement or in fact anyone to help and find real criminals behind real crimes. Bitcoin is not anonymous - you have to go to great lengths to make it such.
Exactly right. I will to do what I can to help the police catch scammers and crooks who want to steal from people.  The police might use those same tools and techniques to help catch people who use bitcoin to pay for drugs; I can't stop them from doing that.

I personally don't think drugs or gambling should be illegal, because I believe you should be free to do whatever you like with your own body and your own money. But I also believe those are separate issues from bitcoin, and if I felt really strongly about it (it isn't one of my own personal hot-button issues) I would be donating money to, or volunteering to work for LEAP and NORML, not mixing "bitcoin is a great new technology" with "drugs should be legal."


If Senator Schumer would like to attend your speaking engagement at the technology start-up symposium of the CIA he would quickly realise that bitcoin is simply a monetary technology, nothing more.

Invite him along.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Jaime Frontero on June 06, 2011, 10:04:37 PM
.
Why he did not bothered with opiates farms in Afghanistan, that is under US control (if US did not lie about it, lol)  ?

Because he can't admit to such a thing while Chocolate Jesus is president.

Is it your intention to be racially offensive or what?



nah.  some folks just take pride in ignorance.

for example:  that the clan (hmmm... possible spelling error) which preceded the current president were probably the biggest drug-dealers in history.  especially the senior, who started his drug-dealing before he was even the VP.  of course, the son had the intellectual capacity of a clam, and was really only coasting...


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: cdnbcguy on June 06, 2011, 10:29:47 PM
We can now expect another BTC rally as new people discover Bitcoin from this article.

However - we can expect the BIG ONE in two years when the yield of a block drops from 50 to 25 BTC at block 210,000


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Jaime Frontero on June 06, 2011, 10:34:42 PM
We can now expect another BTC rally as new people discover Bitcoin from this article.

However - we can expect the BIG ONE in two years when the yield of a block drops from 50 to 25 BTC at block 210,000

oh man...

block #210,001 is going to be EPIC.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: n0m4d on June 06, 2011, 10:37:56 PM
Chuck Schumer is the biggest blowhard in the U.S. Senate. No one takes him seriously and he doesn't stay focused on much long.

Unfortunately, being taken seriously and setting policy that gets people shot are two different things in the states at this point.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 07, 2011, 12:33:59 AM

A US congressman wakes up to bitcoin on a sleepy sunday morning ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y15NnGZIBuM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y15NnGZIBuM)


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Goldenmaw on June 07, 2011, 12:36:34 AM

A US congressman wakes up to bitcoin on a sleepy sunday morning ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y15NnGZIBuM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y15NnGZIBuM)

Unfortunately, I think WE might be the monkeys... The senator is off screen, trying to convince the alpha male of the tribe to throw rocks at it from the cliffside.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: vragnaroda on June 07, 2011, 01:07:50 AM

Unfortunately, being taken seriously and setting policy that gets people shot are two different things in the states at this point.

Except that's not how legislatures work. Other people in the Senate have to take him seriously for him to get anything done. And they don't.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Goldenmaw on June 07, 2011, 01:11:50 AM
I sure hope you prove right about that!


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 07, 2011, 01:17:56 AM

A US congressman wakes up to bitcoin on a sleepy sunday morning ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y15NnGZIBuM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y15NnGZIBuM)

Unfortunately, I think WE might be the monkeys... The senator is off screen, trying to convince the alpha male of the tribe to throw rocks at it from the cliffside.

Your use of WE in that statement is exceedingly liberal. While you cower in fear and beat the drum of defeat the real WE is .... oh yeah, we're mining bitcoins, get into it or get out of the way lest you be trampled by the freedom seeking mob.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Goldenmaw on June 07, 2011, 01:24:52 AM
This whole damned forum is exceedingly liberal, even by my standards, and as an individual I have had terrible problems with authority my entire life.  This new libertarian standard of no-compromise total war is just too authoritarian for me.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Anonymous on June 07, 2011, 01:27:16 AM
This whole damned forum is exceedingly liberal, even by my standards, and as an individual I have had terrible problems with authority my entire life.  This new libertarian standard of no-compromise total war is just too authoritarian for me.
Words cannot even begin to describe the lack of a coherent thought within these sentences.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Goldenmaw on June 07, 2011, 01:27:48 AM
A single word can describe it, actually:  Irony.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: vragnaroda on June 07, 2011, 01:28:57 AM
This new libertarian standard of no-compromise total war is just too authoritarian for me.

What?!


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Goldenmaw on June 07, 2011, 01:29:43 AM
I should really get into stand-up.  That last bit was ... Golden.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MacFall on June 07, 2011, 01:38:20 AM
Quote
It's an online form of money laundering used to disguise the source of money, and to disguise who's both selling and buying the drug," said Schumer.

I suppose technically it could be considered money laundering because you can't trace the source of the money

I haven't actually read the laws, but from what I am given to understand, literally any financial transaction can technically be considered money laundering.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: minerX on June 07, 2011, 01:50:39 AM
Quick! Someone cross post OCN and see how long until it gets deleted.

They deleted one of my posts that said "What's the first rule of bit club? (On OCN)"


 Lool...




Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Fhtagn on June 07, 2011, 01:51:41 AM
I've already received a response from one of my Senators' Washington office (Jim DeMint R SC). I could not return his call in time, today, but will be talking to them tomorrow.

I am presenting this as a registered business owner; that prohibition of Bitcoin will result in a lost economic opportunity for both my state and for the US.

South Carolina has shown a lot of interest and invested a lot of money in attracting and retaining tech businesses. I'll report back, if the call proves fruitful.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: minerX on June 07, 2011, 01:52:34 AM
I've already received a response from one of my Senators' offices (Jim DeMint R SC). I could not return his call in time, today, but will be talking to them tomorrow.

I am presenting this as a registered business owner; that prohibition of Bitcoin will result in a lost economic opportunity for both my state and for the US.

South Carolina has shown a lot of interest and invested a lot of money in attracting and retaining tech businesses. I'll report back, if the call proves fruitful.

The only way government will ever support this if it's regulated.  How the hell are they going to regulate this?  Make businesses submit BTC receipts to the IRS for tax purposes?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Anonymous on June 07, 2011, 01:53:27 AM
I've already received a response from one of my Senators' offices (Jim DeMint R SC). I could not return his call in time, today, but will be talking to them tomorrow.

I am presenting this as a registered business owner; that prohibition of Bitcoin will result in a lost economic opportunity for both my state and for the US.

South Carolina has shown a lot of interest and invested a lot of money in attracting and retaining tech businesses. I'll report back, if the call proves fruitful.
Make businesses submit BTC receipts to the IRS for tax purposes?
Impossible to enforce.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Goldenmaw on June 07, 2011, 01:54:15 AM
Good luck, Fhtagn!  Here's a strange coincidence - I just happened to begin reading some Lovecraft when you made this post.  I cannot hazard a guess at the fortune of this.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Fhtagn on June 07, 2011, 01:55:17 AM
The only way government will ever support this if it's regulated.  How the hell are they going to regulate this?  Make businesses submit BTC receipts to the IRS for tax purposes?

I already keep records of my Bitcoin balances and exchanges, for tax purposes. I'm Managing Member of a registered LLC, in SC.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Fhtagn on June 07, 2011, 01:57:33 AM
Good luck, Fhtagn!  Here's a strange coincidence - I just happened to begin reading some Lovecraft when you made this post.  I cannot hazard a guess at the fortune of this.

IA!


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: dust on June 07, 2011, 01:58:53 AM
We can now expect another BTC rally as new people discover Bitcoin from this article.

However - we can expect the BIG ONE in two years when the yield of a block drops from 50 to 25 BTC at block 210,000

oh man...

block #210,001 is going to be EPIC.
The market should price in the block reward change well before it actually happens.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 07, 2011, 02:06:15 AM
Good luck, Fhtagn!  Here's a strange coincidence - I just happened to begin reading some Lovecraft when you made this post.  I cannot hazard a guess at the fortune of this.

Reading a book and spamming multiple forum threads simultaneously, are you some kind of AI bot?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: n0m4d on June 07, 2011, 03:56:04 AM
Except that's not how legislatures work. Other people in the Senate have to take him seriously for him to get anything done. And they don't.

Try selling that to the three percenters.

In a perfect world, I'd agree.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Nefario on June 07, 2011, 04:13:50 AM
I heard about this on irc last night.

I wasn't quite sure what to make of it, felt a little worried, and then I checked Mt.Gox

There was a big drop and then a swift recovery at this news, and we've been fairly steady since. What this means is, that the market (the wisest among us) was spooked for a short time, and then after a little analysis dissmissed it. It's as free a market as there is, and it has spoken.

I also see that this is bitcoin, and the problem is with SR. Sure the site is using bitcoin, but it could just as easily have used USD notes. Are the senators going to look to ban them?

They(the senators) have just given millions of dollars worth of publicity to advertise SR, bitcoin, and that particular business model. Young people(below 40) will see this news and think cool, because it's normal to them. I don't smoke never mind do drugs but is there really anyone here who doesn't have friends in real life that do(illegal drugs, including MJ)?

At least 1/2 of my friends back west do, and I'm not a stoner or party person.

Logistically the state is going to lose, they do not have the resources to ban something that requires so much work to catch a single person, never mind the millions that will use it. When more sites like SR (and it's a when not if) pop up (thanks for giving more people the idea), the numbers will grow to such an extent that the state won't be able to do anything except the odd show bust.

As avoidance techniques and technologies develope these will become increasingly rarer.

I think we can just ignore this and get back to work.

In an unrelated note, I'm releasing a web client for glbse.com today ( a few hours after I fix some site issues).



Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: error on June 07, 2011, 04:17:44 AM
Looking at the hidden wiki, I counted 13 - that's thirteen - sites similar to Silk Road on Tor, some of which also accepted Bitcoin. I didn't look deeply into all of them, though. This does indicate, however, that this isn't going away.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Nefario on June 07, 2011, 04:25:46 AM
Looking at the hidden wiki, I counted 13 - that's thirteen - sites similar to Silk Road on Tor, some of which also accepted Bitcoin. I didn't look deeply into all of them, though. This does indicate, however, that this isn't going away.

It's not going to go away, from a numbers perspective, it will become infeasable for the state to prevent this sort of activity on a large scale.

Think of the effort it takes to shutdown a single site like SR, or catch a single seller, it's a huge amount of work that requires a lot of expensively tallented people to do. And that's just to catch one person or shut down one site.

Now multiply it a thousand times (probably more), now the resources needed by the state become absolutely stupendous. They are faced with the choice:
1) Give up, it's like drilling water.
2) Continue despite it's massive waste of resources and almost total lack of effect.
3) Pour army size resources into combating this issue, while at the same time curtailing peoples rights

The state can't afford 3, and they won't give up (I don't think they will) so 1 is off the plate, leaving 2.

The easiest targest will become the customers, so it will be individual users, buyers that will be the first arrested.

Also I was wondering how illegal is SR? They don't actually sell drugs themselves, they are simply an intermediary, matching up traders. SR themselves aren't doing anything illegal AFAIK (please tell me otherwise).


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Ricochet on June 07, 2011, 04:40:01 AM
I also see that this is bitcoin, and the problem is with SR. Sure the site is using bitcoin, but it could just as easily have used USD notes.

The beauty of this is that they *did* choose Bitcoin, demonstrating (in a roundabout way) that its advantages over traditional currency are sound.

Also I was wondering how illegal is SR? They don't actually sell drugs themselves, they are simply an intermediary, matching up traders. SR themselves aren't doing anything illegal AFAIK (please tell me otherwise).
SR is a seller as well as the maintainer of the site, to my knowledge.  Many of the initial sales were directly from him/them.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MoonShadow on June 07, 2011, 04:48:29 AM
Except that's not how legislatures work. Other people in the Senate have to take him seriously for him to get anything done. And they don't.

Try selling that to the three percenters.

In a perfect world, I'd agree.


It seems that the average inteligence of the forum membership has dropped a bit since Shumer's army arrived.

Do you know what a "3 percenter" is?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: error on June 07, 2011, 04:51:55 AM
I think this is the working definition of three percenter: http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2009/02/what-is-three-percenter.html


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MoonShadow on June 07, 2011, 04:55:56 AM
I think this is the working definition of three percenter: http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2009/02/what-is-three-percenter.html
Stop doing his homework.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: drugsmang on June 07, 2011, 06:56:52 AM
'the farmers market' has been around for 11yrs almost and is 'the ebay of drug selling' but they're more discreet about it since they use traceable payments through Pecunix and have PayPal cashiers.

there's around a dozen forums like p1ponline that are full of vendors. most of the hacker forums have drug sellers in europe, this is nothing new just Gawker made it sensationaltastic and buddy needs votes i guess.

lol @ 'seize the silk road domain' deerp tor

really all they can do is pose as sellers selling enormous amounts of drugs and hope to snare somebody. or attempt to trace a large bitcoin payment into cash that makes it's way back to the vendor.... would be very difficult in court for any lawyer to prove the coins that went through escrow and a half dozen other addresses were all headed to you specifically for drugs. much easier to get the low hanging fruit like all those illegal epharma websites making multi millions a year


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: benjamindees on June 07, 2011, 07:06:29 AM
Anyone who thinks this is about drugs and not Bitcoin is a moron frankly.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Nefario on June 07, 2011, 07:23:34 AM
Anyone who thinks this is about drugs and not Bitcoin is a moron frankly.

Actually I think it's about that election that's coming soon.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: alkor on June 07, 2011, 07:27:50 AM
Anyone who thinks this is about drugs and not Bitcoin is a moron frankly.
This is what I have been trying to say all along.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: ene on June 07, 2011, 09:13:26 AM
Also I was wondering how illegal is SR? They don't actually sell drugs themselves, they are simply an intermediary, matching up traders. SR themselves aren't doing anything illegal AFAIK (please tell me otherwise).

Do you really think the government is that stupid?

Quote from: USC Title 21, Chapter 13, Subchapter I, Part D, Section 841
(h) Offenses involving dispensing of controlled substances by means of the Internet
(1) In general
It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly or intentionally—
(A) deliver, distribute, or dispense a controlled substance by means of the Internet, except as authorized by this subchapter; or
(B) aid or abet (as such terms are used in section 2 of title 18) any activity described in subparagraph (A) that is not authorized by this subchapter.
(2) Examples
Examples of activities that violate paragraph (1) include, but are not limited to, knowingly or intentionally—
(A) delivering, distributing, or dispensing a controlled substance by means of the Internet by an online pharmacy that is not validly registered with a modification authorizing such activity as required by section 823 (f) of this title (unless exempt from such registration);
(B) writing a prescription for a controlled substance for the purpose of delivery, distribution, or dispensation by means of the Internet in violation of section 829(e) of the title;
(C) serving as an agent, intermediary, or other entity that causes the Internet to be used to bring together a buyer and seller to engage in the dispensing of a controlled substance in a manner not authorized by sections [2] 823(f) or 829(e) of this title;
(D) offering to fill a prescription for a controlled substance based solely on a consumer’s completion of an online medical questionnaire; and
(E) making a material false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation in a notification or declaration under subsection (d) or (e), respectively, of section 831 of this title.

The penalties are the same as for drug dealing itself.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: error on June 07, 2011, 09:29:43 AM
Do you really think the government is that stupid?

To be fair, sometimes they are.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: bitpop on June 07, 2011, 09:38:03 AM
https://ianxz6zefk72ulzz.tor2web.org/ (https://ianxz6zefk72ulzz.tor2web.org/)


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: uniman on June 07, 2011, 09:58:40 AM

I agree. If bitcoins only purpose/advantage is as an inflation-hedge, there are numerous things that would serve that function. The major differentiator, in fact the only differentiator that will have a significant impact on economic growth and taxation policy, is bitcoin's potential for user-determined anonymity and untracability.

ie: mostly illegal activity

Yes.  Because retaking our freedom and extending it globally is going to require breaking quite a few laws.  Stop paying your taxes, stop filing paperwork with the Enemy.  Stop participating in the Enemy's staged political show.  Disconnect from their system.  Remove your money from its banking system and store your savings in new forms of wealth.  Develop a support network in the underground economy.  The old system is disintegrating and a new one is growing in it's place.  Your new life will be as freeman or slave, the choice is yours.  Easier said than done?  Sure.  Better than life on your knees?  I say yes.



Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: beastY on June 07, 2011, 10:00:49 AM
Are we there already?:



"... and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark ... "



Its a quote from a famous book.  Don't think its talking about the German Deutch mark   ?



Or have we already been there all along?



Is Bitcoin a threat to freedom of commerce medium, or is it providing wider medium choice?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: cryptoanarchist on June 07, 2011, 10:30:54 AM
If Schumer has a problem with Silk Road, just wait until someone builds a site based on Jim Bell's now infamous essay, "Assassination Politics".

There'll probably be bids on his ass the first day its online.  :D


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: cryptoanarchist on June 07, 2011, 10:40:31 AM
I actually agree that drugs should be legal and one should be allowed to ingest anything they please. But what should and shouldn't be has little to do with what IS and ISN'T. Drug trafficking IS illegal in the united states. This rich and powerful man now sees drugs and bitcoins as indivisible and mining and trading bitcoins as a criminal offense. He is actively trying to convince his rich and powerful friends of the same directly because of silk road. Silk road is a thread to the bitcoin network and I personally want to see it exterminated.


I know there are forum rules, but at what point can I say mean things about this guy?

Sounds like "buddha" can't remove his tongue from the bottom of the government's boot heel, and quite frankly, sounds a lot like them with his twisted morality.

mjsbuddha, understand that you have ZERO say in what I, or anyone else chooses to put in their own bodies. The fact that you feel you somehow have a right or duty to impose your ideals of behavior on others is really sickening to me. You want to shut down a website cause you don't like it?!?! Why don't you work on yourself first?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Goldenmaw on June 07, 2011, 10:49:19 AM
Reading a book and spamming multiple forum threads simultaneously, are you some kind of AI bot?
I have to use those spare cycles between updates, somehow.  ... Can our brains mine bitcoins?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MoonShadow on June 07, 2011, 11:35:39 AM
I actually agree that drugs should be legal and one should be allowed to ingest anything they please. But what should and shouldn't be has little to do with what IS and ISN'T. Drug trafficking IS illegal in the united states. This rich and powerful man now sees drugs and bitcoins as indivisible and mining and trading bitcoins as a criminal offense. He is actively trying to convince his rich and powerful friends of the same directly because of silk road. Silk road is a thread to the bitcoin network and I personally want to see it exterminated.


I know there are forum rules, but at what point can I say mean things about this guy?


"Tact - The ability to tell someone to go to hell so that they will look forward to the trip."

It's not the intent, but the content, of the posts that are affected by the rules.



Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: choosenamehere on June 07, 2011, 11:57:47 AM
'the farmers market' has been around for 11yrs almost and is 'the ebay of drug selling' but they're more discreet about it since they use traceable payments through Pecunix and have PayPal cashiers.

there's around a dozen forums like p1ponline that are full of vendors. most of the hacker forums have drug sellers in europe, this is nothing new just Gawker made it sensationaltastic and buddy needs votes i guess.

lol @ 'seize the silk road domain' deerp tor

really all they can do is pose as sellers selling enormous amounts of drugs and hope to snare somebody. or attempt to trace a large bitcoin payment into cash that makes it's way back to the vendor.... would be very difficult in court for any lawyer to prove the coins that went through escrow and a half dozen other addresses were all headed to you specifically for drugs. much easier to get the low hanging fruit like all those illegal epharma websites making multi millions a year

It is actually kind of annoying that SR gets all the advertisement from the media and credit for being the first drug site to operate in this way...because they just fell out of no where a few months ago when there are other forums with memberships strecthing back ten years not to mention a few other public drug forums that are even more established (http://g7pz322wcy6jnn4r.onion/opensource/ovdb/ac/index.php) ... thanks for giving the noobs all the credit for being the pioneers though Gawker etc....

SR is awesome and we all wish them well though. Bitcoin was the magic word that got them attention, the other drug sites mostly accept Liberty Reserve and Pecunix although a lot have started to transition to Bitcoin recently SR was the first that used it as the standard payment. I can't deny being annoyed that they are getting all this free advertising though.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: ierierjio on June 07, 2011, 12:23:58 PM
Exactly right. I will to do what I can to help the police catch scammers and crooks who want to steal from people.  The police might use those same tools and techniques to help catch people who use bitcoin to pay for drugs; I can't stop them from doing that.

Are you saying you would want to work on "coin un-mixers", software that attempts to reduce the effectiveness of coin mixers? (Using statistical analyses on the public data of the block chain.)
it could me done by mixing a large amount of btc in the mixer, so others will mix to your btc, insted of anonymous ones

That is called a flushing attack. The concept of mixes and attacks on mixes has been around for decades now. Guess what guys...mixing won.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: n0m4d on June 07, 2011, 01:09:58 PM
I think this is the working definition of three percenter: http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2009/02/what-is-three-percenter.html
Stop doing his homework.

 Schumer co-authored the AWB.  Do yours.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MoonShadow on June 07, 2011, 01:13:04 PM
I think this is the working definition of three percenter: http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2009/02/what-is-three-percenter.html
Stop doing his homework.

 Schumer co-authored the AWB.  Do yours.

The what?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: rezin777 on June 07, 2011, 01:28:13 PM
The what?

I think he is referring to the Assault Weapons Ban. (I also think there is some miscommunication here between what people are saying and what others think they are saying. It's difficult to follow with such short sentences that are open to interpretation. I don't think anyone is in actual disagreement here, but I could be wrong.)


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: bitcoinBull on June 07, 2011, 01:56:47 PM
I heard about this on irc last night.

I wasn't quite sure what to make of it, felt a little worried, and then I checked Mt.Gox

There was a big drop and then a swift recovery at this news, and we've been fairly steady since. What this means is, that the market (the wisest among us) was spooked for a short time, and then after a little analysis dissmissed it. It's as free a market as there is, and it has spoken.


Check the timing a little more carefully.  I'm pretty sure the sell-off had already started before the Schumer story, and was mostly finished by the time the story broke.  It actually started recovering around the time the story went to press.  cbw...


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MacFall on June 07, 2011, 02:02:06 PM
Stop paying your taxes, stop filing paperwork with the Enemy.  Stop participating in the Enemy's staged political show.
Stop capitalizing "enemy". You do them too much honor.  ;)


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MoonShadow on June 07, 2011, 03:25:57 PM
I heard about this on irc last night.

I wasn't quite sure what to make of it, felt a little worried, and then I checked Mt.Gox

There was a big drop and then a swift recovery at this news, and we've been fairly steady since. What this means is, that the market (the wisest among us) was spooked for a short time, and then after a little analysis dissmissed it. It's as free a market as there is, and it has spoken.


Check the timing a little more carefully.  I'm pretty sure the sell-off had already started before the Schumer story, and was mostly finished by the time the story broke.  It actually started recovering around the time the story went to press.  cbw...

Basicly, the overall market doesn't seem to care. 


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MacFall on June 07, 2011, 04:57:00 PM
I'd rather they become enthusiastic through the "undorsement" of a Senator, but apathy will do.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MacFall on June 07, 2011, 05:36:29 PM
The politicians behind that report are not in a position to benefit from national drug prohibitions. I do not think their opinion will affect nation-state decision making to any great extent, nor do I believe they would still be playing the same tune if they had the opportunity to wage a global war on drugs.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Dobrodav on June 07, 2011, 05:48:55 PM
Quote
Drug Policy Alliance discussed a new report put together by the Global Commission on Drug Policy that concludes that the global war on drugs has failed.
from:


Given this Global Commission on Drug Policy report (http://www.globalcommissionondrugs.org/Report), i think the plan to incorporate Bitcoin into America's self-serving "War on Drugs" is going to be a non-starter.

That is interesiting material, thank you.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Grinder on June 07, 2011, 06:41:29 PM
I actually agree that drugs should be legal and one should be allowed to ingest anything they please. But what should and shouldn't be has little to do with what IS and ISN'T. Drug trafficking IS illegal in the united states. This rich and powerful man now sees drugs and bitcoins as indivisible and mining and trading bitcoins as a criminal offense. He is actively trying to convince his rich and powerful friends of the same directly because of silk road. Silk road is a thread to the bitcoin network and I personally want to see it exterminated.


I know there are forum rules, but at what point can I say mean things about this guy?

Sounds like "buddha" can't remove his tongue from the bottom of the government's boot heel, and quite frankly, sounds a lot like them with his twisted morality.

mjsbuddha, understand that you have ZERO say in what I, or anyone else chooses to put in their own bodies. The fact that you feel you somehow have a right or duty to impose your ideals of behavior on others is really sickening to me. You want to shut down a website cause you don't like it?!?! Why don't you work on yourself first?
Read the first sentence in the text you quoted a few times. If you still think your reply is relevant you should probably just stop posting.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: DATA COMMANDER on June 07, 2011, 06:56:46 PM
I actually agree that drugs should be legal and one should be allowed to ingest anything they please. But what should and shouldn't be has little to do with what IS and ISN'T. Drug trafficking IS illegal in the united states. This rich and powerful man now sees drugs and bitcoins as indivisible and mining and trading bitcoins as a criminal offense. He is actively trying to convince his rich and powerful friends of the same directly because of silk road. Silk road is a thread to the bitcoin network and I personally want to see it exterminated.


I know there are forum rules, but at what point can I say mean things about this guy?

Sounds like "buddha" can't remove his tongue from the bottom of the government's boot heel, and quite frankly, sounds a lot like them with his twisted morality.

mjsbuddha, understand that you have ZERO say in what I, or anyone else chooses to put in their own bodies. The fact that you feel you somehow have a right or duty to impose your ideals of behavior on others is really sickening to me. You want to shut down a website cause you don't like it?!?! Why don't you work on yourself first?
Read the first sentence in the text you quoted a few times. If you still think your reply is relevant you should probably just stop posting.

You should try leading the last sentence in the text he quoted.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Grinder on June 07, 2011, 08:08:28 PM
You should try leading the last sentence in the text he quoted.
Sites like Silk Road are going to make governments stop Bitcoin from getting widespread use, so you have to choose between having sites like this and the success of Bitcoin. It's a simple cause and affect, and saying that he would prefer the success of Bitcoin over the availability of such sites doesn't mean he likes it. In fact he's just said he doesn't like it. You are shooting the messenger.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MacFall on June 07, 2011, 08:26:58 PM
You should try leading the last sentence in the text he quoted.
Sites like Silk Road are going to make governments stop Bitcoin from getting widespread use
Sort of like how they have made government stop marijuana from having widespread use. Right?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Fhtagn on June 07, 2011, 08:33:59 PM
I got off of the phone with Senator Jim DeMint's(R SC) DC office, a short while ago.

While I didn't speak to the Senator, I talked to a member of his staff that was: already aware of Bitcoin and how it works, has visited this forum, and was aware of Gavin's coming trip to the CIA. He agreed that this is an interesting technology with market potential.

The conversation was brief and politic, but my overall impression was a positive one.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: xf2_org on June 07, 2011, 08:43:35 PM
I got off of the phone with Senator Jim DeMint's(R SC) DC office, a short while ago.

While I didn't speak to the Senator, I talked to a member of his staff that was: already aware of Bitcoin and how it works, has visited this forum, and was aware of Gavin's coming trip to the CIA. He agreed that this is an interesting technology with market potential.

The conversation was brief and politic, but my overall impression was a positive one.

Good stuff.  We need more proactive, positive conversations like this.



Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MoonShadow on June 07, 2011, 08:54:44 PM
The conversation was brief and politic, but my overall impression was a positive one.

Yeah, the co-ops that they put on the phones are particularly good at giving that impression regardless of their true thoughts.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Grinder on June 07, 2011, 09:12:12 PM
Sort of like how they have made government stop marijuana from having widespread use. Right?
Why do you think that comparison makes any sense at all? You don't have to connect to a global open grid on the internet every time you want to use marijuana. If you did it would be ridiculously much easier to scare away the individual users.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: shady financier on June 07, 2011, 09:13:08 PM
You should try leading the last sentence in the text he quoted.
Sites like Silk Road are going to make governments stop Bitcoin from getting widespread use, so you have to choose between having sites like this and the success of Bitcoin. It's a simple cause and affect, and saying that he would prefer the success of Bitcoin over the availability of such sites doesn't mean he likes it. In fact he's just said he doesn't like it. You are shooting the messenger.

The nature of bitcoin itself means the choice of who gets to use it is no longer anybodies to make.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: timmo11 on June 07, 2011, 09:21:42 PM
All the news talks about is money laundering..seriously wtf.

it probably doesn't help matters that there is a service called the Bitcoin Laundry listed on the "who accepts bitcoins" page


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MacFall on June 07, 2011, 09:35:26 PM
You don't have to connect to a global open grid on the internet every time you want to use marijuana.
No, instead you have to have a face-to-face meeting with someone who could easily be a cop or an informant, or receive your product through the government-controlled mail service.

As an illegal good, bitcoin would be MUCH safer on a per-user basis than weed. Especially considering the fact that in order to enforce laws against it, state agencies will have to spread themselves even thinner than they are, and that's so thin that they can't even keep heroin out of their own prisons as it is.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MacFall on June 07, 2011, 09:38:29 PM
All the news talks about is money laundering..seriously wtf.

it probably doesn't help matters that there is a service called the Bitcoin Laundry listed on the "who accepts bitcoins" page

Although it should - because the fact that there is a service dedicated to laundering ought to indicate that bitcoin itself does not serve that function. But unfortunately, the old media doesn't think too good. Either that or they are really just as corrupt as the government on which they depend.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MoonShadow on June 07, 2011, 09:39:42 PM
and that's so thin that they can't even keep heroin out of their own prisons.

Or cell phones.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Grinder on June 07, 2011, 10:08:09 PM
As an illegal good, bitcoin would be MUCH safer on a per-user basis than weed. Especially considering the fact that in order to enforce laws against it, they will have to spread themselves even thinner than they are, and that's so thin that they can't even keep heroin out of their own prisons as it is.
There are a ton of factors involved here. The utility of the goods for the user, availability of alternative legal ways to obtain a similar good, the chance of getting caught, the severity of the punishment... Most drug users will probably rate the utility fairly highly. There is no legal way to obtain something similar, the closest thing is probably alcohol. The chance of getting caught is very low, and if you do the punishment isn't all that severe.

Bitcoin users on the other hand could usually about as easily use paypal or credit cards. The chance of getting caught is unknown. However, seeing how RIAA and MPAA are allowed to just collect IPs and send bills for infringement I have no doubt governments could pass laws that make it illegal to connect to the bitcoin network altogether. Then they can just start collecting IPs and punish a collection of users severely, while letting everybody know how easily they found them. This would scare the average person back to paypal and CC, and make it that much easier to find and punish the remaining hardcore Bitcoin who actually has something to hide and can be bothered to use proxies and stuff like that.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: hazek on June 08, 2011, 03:03:42 AM
I will to do what I can to help the police catch scammers and crooks who want to steal from people.  The police might use those same tools and techniques to help catch people who use bitcoin to pay for drugs; I can't stop them from doing that.

I'm just wondering does this include any sort of modification to the client especially such which would give the LEAs special privileges?

Not getting an answer to this question has me a little bit worried.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MacFall on June 08, 2011, 03:12:15 AM
I will to do what I can to help the police catch scammers and crooks who want to steal from people.  The police might use those same tools and techniques to help catch people who use bitcoin to pay for drugs; I can't stop them from doing that.

I'm just wondering does this include any sort of modification to the client especially such which would give the LEAs special privileges?

Not getting an answer to this question has me a little bit worried.

Me too. That would be a good way to destroy bitcoin for me. The whole reason I like bitcoin vis a vis the dollar is the lack of special privileges given to anyone, let alone government officials.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Dobrodav on June 08, 2011, 03:12:58 AM
Just to made it clear - any modification done, just to please US government, will immediately stop any activities with bitcoin chain of any other country citizens, and i am believe US citizens will also stop use that chain. We will watch closely sources, and matching hashes of compiled programs, builded from that sources.  I am confident that already opened sources can provide enough materials to start another chain.

That was a panic message - posted to made things clear on that matter.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Durr on June 08, 2011, 03:17:25 AM
Governments will interfere with Bitcoin whether we like that or not so keep this in mind we're here to profit from the last person to join while the fun ride is going on.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: rezin777 on June 08, 2011, 03:26:39 AM
I will to do what I can to help the police catch scammers and crooks who want to steal from people.  The police might use those same tools and techniques to help catch people who use bitcoin to pay for drugs; I can't stop them from doing that.

I'm just wondering does this include any sort of modification to the client especially such which would give the LEAs special privileges?

Not getting an answer to this question has me a little bit worried.

What is there to worry about? Audit the code yourself or use old trusted clients until the code has been well audited. I'm sure with the amount of people looking at everything Bitcoin with the intensity of a high powered microscope that should any such modification ever appear, it would be public knowledge before the client is even released.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on June 08, 2011, 03:28:07 AM
All the news talks about is money laundering..seriously wtf.

it probably doesn't help matters that there is a service called the Bitcoin Laundry listed on the "who accepts bitcoins" page

Although it should - because the fact that there is a service dedicated to laundering ought to indicate that bitcoin itself does not serve that function. But unfortunately, the old media doesn't think too good. Either that or they are really just as corrupt as the government on which they depend.

Bitcoin is not money so you can launder it as much as you like I think .... unless they are officially recognising it as money?

Jumbling up crypto tokens on a website for an on-line game is what exactly?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: mewantsbitcoins on June 08, 2011, 03:39:25 AM
All the news talks about is money laundering..seriously wtf.

it probably doesn't help matters that there is a service called the Bitcoin Laundry listed on the "who accepts bitcoins" page

Although it should - because the fact that there is a service dedicated to laundering ought to indicate that bitcoin itself does not serve that function. But unfortunately, the old media doesn't think too good. Either that or they are really just as corrupt as the government on which they depend.

Bitcoin is not money so you can launder it as much as you like I think .... unless they are officially recognising it as money?

Jumbling up crypto tokens on a website for an on-line game is what exactly?

Sounds like playing world of warcraft to me ;)


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Anonymous on June 08, 2011, 04:25:02 AM
Voluntary drug use is not a crime. Stealing property from walmart and selling it for bitcoin IS a crime.

The difference is in the creation of a victim.

If I smoke a bowl of weed I know Im incapable of even switching the computer on let alone installing tor to find anything  :)


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: matonis on June 08, 2011, 10:23:24 AM
I got off of the phone with Senator Jim DeMint's(R SC) DC office, a short while ago.

While I didn't speak to the Senator, I talked to a member of his staff that was: already aware of Bitcoin and how it works, has visited this forum, and was aware of Gavin's coming trip to the CIA. He agreed that this is an interesting technology with market potential.

The conversation was brief and politic, but my overall impression was a positive one.

Have the politically-correct co-opted the Forum lately? When will people realize that it doesn't matter what government thinks about a 'crypto math puzzle'.  Nor , does it matter if they like it or support it.  It doesn't even matter if the population likes bitcoin. I don't like US Dollars and the promise-of-a-promise Euro currency, but I still accept them.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Grinder on June 08, 2011, 10:39:29 AM
When will people realize that it doesn't matter what government thinks about a 'crypto math puzzle'.
I guess it only matters if you prefer not having to risk to go to jail.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: shady financier on June 08, 2011, 10:43:13 AM
I got off of the phone with Senator Jim DeMint's(R SC) DC office, a short while ago.

While I didn't speak to the Senator, I talked to a member of his staff that was: already aware of Bitcoin and how it works, has visited this forum, and was aware of Gavin's coming trip to the CIA. He agreed that this is an interesting technology with market potential.

The conversation was brief and politic, but my overall impression was a positive one.

Have the politically-correct co-opted the Forum lately? When will people realize that it doesn't matter what government thinks about a 'crypto math puzzle'.  Nor , does it matter if they like it or support it.  It doesn't even matter if the population likes bitcoin. I don't like US Dollars and the promise-of-a-promise Euro currency, but I still accept them.

Politically-correct? What on earth has political correctness got to do with any of this  ???


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Goldenmaw on June 08, 2011, 11:03:22 AM
There are people here who view Bitcoin as nothing more than an opportunity to stick it to the man, for the sheer malice of the act.  The benefits of the system itself are secondary to the damage it could do to the people in power, from their perspective.

This attitude is in its own way as savage as the corruption that has driven so many of us to distrust our own governments.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: saqwe on June 08, 2011, 03:13:08 PM
There are people here who view Bitcoin as nothing more than an opportunity to stick it to the man, for the sheer malice of the act.  The benefits of the system itself are secondary to the damage it could do to the people in power, from their perspective.

This attitude is in its own way as savage as the corruption that has driven so many of us to distrust our own governments.

true


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: matonis on June 08, 2011, 04:44:28 PM
I just came across this excellent article on Schumer's 'moral' crusade that I thought you all might enjoy:

Chuck Schumer’s New War on Bitcoin
http://rulingclass.wordpress.com/2011/06/06/chuck-schumers-new-war-on-bitcoin/


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: midnightmagic on June 08, 2011, 06:06:11 PM
May I enquire as to whether any tools have arisen from any help you've given to LE, and whether those tools, scripts, or techniques (thought-work) are also available to the rest of us?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Anonymous on June 08, 2011, 06:12:02 PM
This attitude is in its own way as savage as the corruption that has driven so many of us to distrust our own governments.
No, not when these authorities commit massive amounts of holocaust and malice against its people and never cease.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: error on June 09, 2011, 12:17:29 AM
May I enquire as to whether any tools have arisen from any help you've given to LE, and whether those tools, scripts, or techniques (thought-work) are also available to the rest of us?

http://blockexplorer.com/


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: em3rgentOrdr on June 09, 2011, 12:34:17 AM
I just came across this excellent article on Schumer's 'moral' crusade that I thought you all might enjoy:

Chuck Schumer’s New War on Bitcoin
http://rulingclass.wordpress.com/2011/06/06/chuck-schumers-new-war-on-bitcoin/

Nice blog post there.  Yes, these politicans really show their ignorance here...


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Goldenmaw on June 09, 2011, 05:03:29 PM
This attitude is in its own way as savage as the corruption that has driven so many of us to distrust our own governments.
No, not when these authorities commit massive amounts of holocaust and malice against its people and never cease.
There is a very real difference between the revolutionary spirit and the thirst for revenge.  I maintain that animosity towards one's own government is just as bad as a government's animosity towards its own people.  Either of those things is a sign of deep social sickness.  I want change, but I have no use for harm or havoc in themselves.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: n0m4d on June 09, 2011, 05:25:08 PM
This attitude is in its own way as savage as the corruption that has driven so many of us to distrust our own governments.
No, not when these authorities commit massive amounts of holocaust and malice against its people and never cease.
There is a very real difference between the revolutionary spirit and the thirst for revenge.  I maintain that animosity towards one's own government is just as bad as a government's animosity towards its own people.  Either of those things is a sign of deep social sickness.  I want change, but I have no use for harm or havoc in themselves.

Two names in the compounding list - just in the last year or so:
Jose Guerena.
Erik Scott.

Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Goldenmaw on June 09, 2011, 05:29:54 PM
Two names in the compounding list - just in the last year or so:
Jose Guerena.
Erik Scott.

Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.
I had an eloquent rebuttal typed out, but upon rereading your post I noticed that it didn't really have any bearing on anything I've said here, so the effort was kind of a waste.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Blindside on June 10, 2011, 03:56:39 AM
Wait till the feds get their Quatum computers (yes they exist) on this.  Unfortunately, they could easily destabilize the bitcoin market with enough computing power.... which they can afford.  :'(


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: proudhon on June 10, 2011, 03:57:56 AM
Wait till the feds get their Quatum computers (yes they exist) on this.  Unfortunately, they could easily destabilize the bitcoin market with enough computing power.... which they can afford.  :'(

Oh noes!  SELL!


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Goldenmaw on June 10, 2011, 11:00:23 AM
That's nothing.  If the Sectoid base on Cydonia uses its brain computer to psycalculate the hashitization ratio in the fourth dimension, all 21 million coins will be generated.  Yesterday!

SCRAMBLE X-COM FIGHTERS


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: finnthecelt on June 10, 2011, 06:28:38 PM
I'll post any responses I get, though I don't expect any.

You'll get one.....something like this.....

"Thank you for contacting the office of xxxxx. We value the opinions and needs of all our constituents (so much so we send them all the same form letter)..."

We will look into this matter".....blah, blah, blah...


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: alexandre on June 10, 2011, 07:53:31 PM
I only read the first couple pages of this thread, but here's my opinion.

I've seen a lot of mob mentality lately. From people unquestioningly opposing WikiLeaks because their government opposed it to people cheering when the guy who wrote "The Pedophile's Guide to Love" on Amazon got arrested for simply publishing a book, I've come to the conclusion that although most people *say* they want freedom, they really don't. Freedom implies taking responsibility for your own actions, including when you make mistakes. People don't seem to like that.

In my opinion, it would be a huge threat to Bitcoin if the government kept calling it "money laundering" and so forth. Even though US dollars can also be used to purchase illegal things anonymously, if people get angry or scared enough, trying to correct their misconceptions will be like whispering to someone at a rock concert. People here have said that Bitcoin would simply become a black market item and gain even more value. While that may be true, I have no need for a currency that is limited to black market usage. If businesses and ordinary individuals aren't adopting it, what's the point?

I think we need to do something to reach the masses. Maybe a bunch of us pool together to take out a billboard in some heavily populated area like LA. If we can associate Bitcoin with ideas like "currency," "convenient," "replace PayPal," "secure," and so on, that would be a great first step. There's other obvious things that need work too, like making it easier to get Bitcoins. As it stands, the average person isn't going to go through all the trouble. It'd be nice if there were a way to link your bank account to a site (like how PayPal does it) and use that to get Bitcoins instantly.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: TraderTimm on June 10, 2011, 08:02:17 PM
In short, the executive summary is:

"People are stupid."

With the corollary:

"People ruin everything."

Yeah, I include myself in that - but luckily I've managed not to ruin everything I like. :)


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Salameh on June 10, 2011, 08:19:10 PM
As far as I can tell, the people on this forum know enough about Bitcoins and technology to disregard what people are saying. However the average person does not. I was telling my family about Bitcoin and instead of using their Google-fu they asked friends on Facebook. Sadly their friends just told them it was a money laundering tool. We really need to find a way to educate the average person.


In my opinion, it would be a huge threat to Bitcoin if the government kept calling it "money laundering" and so forth. While that may be true, I have no need for a currency that is limited to black market usage. If businesses and ordinary individuals aren't adopting it, what's the point?.....
I think we need to do something to reach the masses. Maybe a bunch of us pool together to take out a billboard in some heavily populated area like LA. If we can associate Bitcoin with ideas like "currency," "convenient," "replace PayPal," "secure," and so on, that would be a great first step. There's other obvious things that need work too, like making it easier to get Bitcoins.
I like the idea of making Bitcoins look good to the average person, but I think that a billboard would not work, our culture is so used to advertising that it would be completely ignored. I propose that a good way to promote Bitcoin would to push its use on social websites like Facebook. If we can get it used regularly on Facebook nobody would ever see it as a money laundering tool.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: finnthecelt on June 10, 2011, 08:45:40 PM
Wait till the feds get their Quatum computers (yes they exist) on this.  Unfortunately, they could easily destabilize the bitcoin market with enough computing power.... which they can afford.  :'(

That's assuming that the entirety of gov't WANTS it shutdown....

With potential currency crises looming "they" may want several alternatives squarely in place to keep goods and services flowing.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MacFall on June 10, 2011, 09:07:20 PM
Wait till the feds get their Quatum computers (yes they exist) on this.  Unfortunately, they could easily destabilize the bitcoin market with enough computing power.... which they can afford.  :'(

That's assuming that the entirety of gov't WANTS it shutdown....

With potential currency crises looming "they" may want several alternatives squarely in place to keep goods and services flowing.

"They" would only want that if "they" can control it. You think they give a wet fart if people starve to death?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: FlipPro on June 10, 2011, 09:19:37 PM
http://images5.cpcache.com/product/546402495v6_480x480_Front_Color-Black.jpg
http://www.cafepress.com/bitcointeeshirts.546402495


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: bitcool on June 10, 2011, 09:28:05 PM
"They" would only want that if "they" can control it. You think they give a wet fart if people starve to death?
Whoever "They" are, I am sure they don't live in caves. Without a functional currency, goods and services can't flow, the US will descend into complete chaos, the suburbs of Washington DC or New York will not be spared.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MacFall on June 10, 2011, 09:40:39 PM
If they knew that, then why did they make a self-buggering currency in the first place? I'm pretty sure they're all about getting while the getting is good and then waiting out the consequences in a very luxurious bunker or something analogous to that.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: MoonShadow on June 10, 2011, 10:08:40 PM
If there is nothing else I know about governments, it's that they are just people with their own agendas and factions like anyone else.  If one set of government busybodies openly wants to shut down bitcoin, it's a sure bet that there is another set of busybodies who privately want to see it florish.  The same is true for any other government as it is for the US.  If the US government settles on the decision of suppression, then there will undoubtedly be other governments that will support bitcoin for no other reason than the US overlords don't like it.

For example, if Schumer wants Bitcoin stopped; that alone is enough to get the attention of his own critics.  If the Koch brothers get the idea that supporting bitcoin would undermine Dems who openly oppose it, we are going to see a lot more positive press than we could have ever imagined.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Grinder on June 10, 2011, 10:44:59 PM
I've seen a lot of mob mentality lately. From people unquestioningly opposing WikiLeaks because their government opposed it to people cheering when the guy who wrote "The Pedophile's Guide to Love" on Amazon got arrested for simply publishing a book, I've come to the conclusion that although most people *say* they want freedom, they really don't. Freedom implies taking responsibility for your own actions, including when you make mistakes. People don't seem to like that.
I'm not entirely convinced that it's all that comforting to the children getting abused that someone has to "take responsibility" for it later.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: kiba on June 10, 2011, 10:51:52 PM
Forgive me if I already post this: http://bitcoinweekly.com/articles/the-battle-is-on-silk-road-vs-government-and-bitcoin-anonymity


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Gavin Andresen on June 10, 2011, 11:00:30 PM
Does anybody have the full text of the open letter? Mr. Google is failing me when I search for it...


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: ISA on June 10, 2011, 11:05:38 PM
I thought every transactions is visible to everyone?
So bitcoin is not really anonymous, right?


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: kiba on June 10, 2011, 11:06:33 PM
I thought every transactions is visible to everyone?
So bitcoin is not really anonymous, right?

That may be so but I have no idea who owns what.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: rezin777 on June 10, 2011, 11:09:07 PM
I only read the first couple pages of this thread, but here's my opinion.

I've seen a lot of mob mentality lately. From people unquestioningly opposing WikiLeaks because their government opposed it to people cheering when the guy who wrote "The Pedophile's Guide to Love" on Amazon got arrested for simply publishing a book, I've come to the conclusion that although most people *say* they want freedom, they really don't. Freedom implies taking responsibility for your own actions, including when you make mistakes. People don't seem to like that.

In my opinion, it would be a huge threat to Bitcoin if the government kept calling it "money laundering" and so forth. Even though US dollars can also be used to purchase illegal things anonymously, if people get angry or scared enough, trying to correct their misconceptions will be like whispering to someone at a rock concert. People here have said that Bitcoin would simply become a black market item and gain even more value. While that may be true, I have no need for a currency that is limited to black market usage. If businesses and ordinary individuals aren't adopting it, what's the point?

I think we need to do something to reach the masses. Maybe a bunch of us pool together to take out a billboard in some heavily populated area like LA. If we can associate Bitcoin with ideas like "currency," "convenient," "replace PayPal," "secure," and so on, that would be a great first step. There's other obvious things that need work too, like making it easier to get Bitcoins. As it stands, the average person isn't going to go through all the trouble. It'd be nice if there were a way to link your bank account to a site (like how PayPal does it) and use that to get Bitcoins instantly.

I find it interesting how you contradict yourself in a few paragraphs.

I've come to the conclusion that although most people *say* they want freedom, they really don't.

I have no need for a currency that is limited to black market usage.

Bravo.

Maybe contradict is harsh, you never actually said you want freedom, just that others don't. Which I agree with. And you never really said you were looking for freedom of exchange either, just that you wouldn't bother with it if it was pushed to the black market.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: bitcool on June 11, 2011, 12:15:40 AM
Does anybody have the full text of the open letter? Mr. Google is failing me when I search for it...

If you were talking about Schumer's letter to DOJ & DEA ....
http://pastebin.com/VurF7dgr


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: finnthecelt on June 11, 2011, 03:36:13 AM
http://images5.cpcache.com/product/546402495v6_480x480_Front_Color-Black.jpg
http://www.cafepress.com/bitcointeeshirts.546402495

I wonder how people would react if I wore that to work! I want one!


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: Nefario on June 11, 2011, 04:21:43 AM
Does anybody have the full text of the open letter? Mr. Google is failing me when I search for it...

If you were talking about Schumer's letter to DOJ & DEA ....
http://pastebin.com/VurF7dgr


Interesting, I hadn't realised that there was such a thing as "an illegal website" in America, illegal content yes but a website that's illegal?

And they want to seize the domain, that's sweet.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: bitcool on June 11, 2011, 04:42:28 AM

If you were talking about Schumer's letter to DOJ & DEA ....
http://pastebin.com/VurF7dgr


Interesting, I hadn't realised that there was such a thing as "an illegal website" in America, illegal content yes but a website that's illegal?

And they want to seize the domain, that's sweet.
Welcome to the People's Republic of America.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: finnthecelt on June 11, 2011, 04:56:34 AM

If you were talking about Schumer's letter to DOJ & DEA ....
http://pastebin.com/VurF7dgr


Interesting, I hadn't realised that there was such a thing as "an illegal website" in America, illegal content yes but a website that's illegal?

And they want to seize the domain, that's sweet.
Welcome to the People's Republic of America.

Where consumer > citizen.


Title: Re: Senator Charles Schumer Pushes to Shut Down Online Drug Marketplace
Post by: FatherMcGruder on June 15, 2011, 04:04:41 PM
If you were talking about Schumer's letter to DOJ & DEA ....
http://pastebin.com/VurF7dgr

Can anyone find a more official source?

Nevermind, found one: http://manchin.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ContentRecord_id=aeae6e96-7d88-4fed-811b-f0d7f3bc1636&ContentType_id=ec9a1142-0ea4-4086-95b2-b1fc9cc47db5&Group_id=e3f09d56-daa7-43fd-aa8b-bd2aeb8d7777 (http://manchin.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ContentRecord_id=aeae6e96-7d88-4fed-811b-f0d7f3bc1636&ContentType_id=ec9a1142-0ea4-4086-95b2-b1fc9cc47db5&Group_id=e3f09d56-daa7-43fd-aa8b-bd2aeb8d7777)