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Bitcoin => Project Development => Topic started by: Xenland on November 26, 2012, 05:51:36 PM



Title: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Xenland on November 26, 2012, 05:51:36 PM
I think Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet would basically be awesome, i Just can't figure out how that would work off the top of meh head.

My idea is to send a packet of data to my neighbor with the intent of it reaching to the next town over.
The packet would contain some low BTC amount inside it like 0.0005 BTC so my neighbor takes 0.000001 BTC for taking the time, energy, resources to facilitate my needs to get that packet sent to the appropriate destination. This would happen with every node with my destination receiving BTC until no BTC left. I don't know how I would calculate how many btc each node would get or the success of the packet reaching there.

Perhaps every node can send "free" packets for the sake of collecting IP routing table lists and locations and an agreement of the cost of each node, once the list is established the packet can be calculated it's cost and pick the route of least resistance(not too low on BTC node code but not entirely high but more on the low side). Once a line is considered the networking packet will be sent along with the multi-sig BTC transaction, each node checks the transaction from the Blockchain and verifies it before sending off the traffic(Assuming its computationally feasible to do this in the future). once that node sees that the multi-sig transaction is there (with its bitcoin address related to the transaction) it can send off the packet of data to the next node, each node does this until the last node confirms and then the Bitcoins are released to each node simultaneously once the packet reaches its destination.

Some other thoughts...
I could check up on the status of a packet with the security of the block chain too

Thoughts?

*Fixed some spelling issues, grammer stuff


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: matthewh3 on November 26, 2012, 06:00:39 PM
I think Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet would basically be awesome, i Just can't figure out how that would work off the top of meh head.

My idea is to send a packet of data to my neighbor with the intent of it reaching to the next town over.
The packet would contain some low BTC amount inside it like 0.0005 BTC so my neighbor takes 0.000001 BTC for taking the time, energy, resources to facilitate my needs to get that packet sent to the appropriate destination. This would happen with every node with my destination receiving BTC until no BTC left. I don't know how I would calculate how many btc each node would get or the success of the packet reaching there.

Perhaps every node can send "free" packets for the sake of collecting IP routing table lists and locations and an agreement of the cost of each node, once the list is established the packet can be calculated it's cost and pick the route of least resistance(not too low on BTC node code but not entirely high but more on the low side). Once a line is considered the networking packet will be sent along with the multi-sig BTC transaction, each node checks the transaction from the Blockchain and verifies it before sending off the traffic(Assuming its computationally feasible to do this in the future). once that node sees that the multi-sig transaction is there (with its bitcoin address related to the transaction) it can send off the packet of data to the next node, each node does this until the last node confirms and then the Bitcoins are released to each node simultaneously once the packet reaches its destination.

Some other thoughts...
I could check up on the status of a packet with the security of the block chain too

Thoughts?

*Fixed some spelling issues, grammer stuff

Maybe try supporting 'The Free Network Foundation' - http://thefnf.org/ - ideas

We are using the power of peer-to-peer technologies to create a global network which is resistant to censorship and breakdown


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Xenland on November 26, 2012, 06:11:53 PM
Ah yeah I've heard of that before and I am very very interested in the project, Thank you for taking the time to suggest that to me, maybe one day when i have some extra cash to spend I will setup a node for my small town, but for now I will propose on figuring out how to make the incentive to put up a node with Bitcoins


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: matthewh3 on November 26, 2012, 06:23:25 PM
Ah yeah I've heard of that before and I am very very interested in the project, Thank you for taking the time to suggest that to me, maybe one day when i have some extra cash to spend I will setup a node for my small town, but for now I will propose on figuring out how to make the incentive to put up a node with Bitcoins

A post in there forum by one of the main devs:

Quote
A properly executed freedombox platform could allow folks to seamlessly exchange bitcoins (or other value stores) for bandwidth, or any other service conceivable. A true peer-to-peer economy.

http://thefnf.org/?page_id=683/software/commerce-on-the-mesh/&value=bitcoin&type=1&include=1&search=1&ret=all

You can also donate to the FNF with bitcoins - http://commons.thefnf.org/index.php/Needs


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: LordMord on November 26, 2012, 07:58:46 PM
You could also be intrested in https://projectmeshnet.org/ (https://projectmeshnet.org/).


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: ElectricMucus on November 26, 2012, 08:33:25 PM
Bitcoin in it's current state wouldn't be best suited for these kind of microtransactions, however it should be possible to devise a compromise where you pay for packages of resources in larger units of about one megabyte to a gigabyte.


semi OT:
A real decentralized mesh network could also use far more sophisticated techniques. It could provide a "backed" currency in a traditional sense (backed by force instead of resources) and modern sense (resources). A mesh network could function as a GPS system at 50USD per node cost (simple rubidium clock) and provide continuous validation of assets.
Dependent on the effort it could even be made quantum cryptographically secure. (using interference modulated light, all it would need is a laser diode and piezos and ccd sensors)
It is my opinion  that if the system is ever to be challenged in a resilient way it would be with a mesh network as a basis. Mesh networks are the single most dangerous technology from a systems perspective.


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Stephen Gornick on November 26, 2012, 09:22:14 PM
Thoughts?

Related link:

Example 7: Rapidly-adjusted (micro)payments to a pre-determined party
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_7:_Rapidly-adjusted_.28micro.29payments_to_a_pre-determined_party


Less-related (but in the same ballpark) link:

wifi hotspot software for bitcoin payments
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=75918.0

Bounty 20 BTC: Wi-Fi Hotspot, enabled by bitcoin
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7998.0


The reason these might be relevant is not every merchant will have (or will be providing to customers for use) Internet/web mobile data service and thus in-person retail payment would require that both the customer or merchant or both have Internet/web mobile data service.   I could see a single merchant with a data connection who then provides service to other merchants (repeater or peer), for free or for a fee.

Bitcoin isn't the only payment method that could use wi-fi without needing telecom in which this becomes useful.


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: matthewh3 on November 26, 2012, 09:29:52 PM
http://bitcoincard.org/ - may also be of interest regarding the OP.  It is a bitcoin-hardware-wallet that can operate in p2p-mesh networks.  The website has been up since April (2012) and I don't know when its being released although have heard about something happening in January and that the project is still actively being developed.


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Xenland on November 28, 2012, 03:02:27 PM
Whoa, awesome responses mates, looks like there is WORK TO DO!



Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: caffeinewriter on November 30, 2012, 08:24:24 PM
Also take a look at HocNet (http://www.reddit.com/r/hocnet/)


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Anon136 on December 02, 2012, 02:07:50 AM
Its a really great idea. You as the user would simply load the most resent map of the network and chose your preferred tradeoff between speed and price but on the macro level this would coordinate the flow of data in the most economically efficent manner for the network as a whole by virtue of adam smiths invisible hand. It would also quickly lead to truly pervasive worldwide internet (all though it would undoubtedly be pretty expensive in rural aferica for a while).

The other really great thing about your idea is that there is no need for any formal organizational structure, no one needs to create a project, build a factory or start a foundation, all that needs to happen is for one guy somewhere to broad cast a wide area network from his house and allow people to forward any sort of traffic they want through it for any reason for a small BTC fee and soon others would copy him. For a long time it would offer a totally different service than the internet but it would grow and then eventually we would wake up one morning realize that it had morphed into the internet 2.0 and no one would be quite sure when that had happened.

Another really great thing about this is no one needs to be charitable. Some enterprising entrepreneur could create the devise and sell it and he could make a profit, I would be willing to buy the devise from him because i could just plug it into the wall and start collecting btc and make a proft and my neighbors would be willing to pay me to use the service because it would allow them to play games and share files with irl friends who lived in the same city much more quickly and with much lower latency than could be achieved through the internet.


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Xenland on December 02, 2012, 02:47:46 AM
Its a really great idea. You as the user would simply load the most resent map of the network and chose your preferred tradeoff between speed and price but on the macro level this would coordinate the flow of data in the most economically efficent manner for the network as a whole by virtue of adam smiths invisible hand. It would also quickly lead to truly pervasive worldwide internet (all though it would undoubtedly be pretty expensive in rural aferica for a while).

The other really great thing about your idea is that there is no need for any formal organizational structure, no one needs to create a project, build a factory or start a foundation, all that needs to happen is for one guy somewhere to broad cast a wide area network from his house and allow people to forward any sort of traffic they want through it for any reason for a small BTC fee and soon others would copy him. For a long time it would offer a totally different service than the internet but it would grow and then eventually we would wake up one morning realize that it had morphed into the internet 2.0 and no one would be quite sure when that had happened.

Another really great thing about this is no one needs to be charitable. Some enterprising entrepreneur could create the devise and sell it and he could make a profit, I would be willing to buy the devise from him because i could just plug it into the wall and start collecting btc and make a proft and my neighbors would be willing to pay me to use the service because it would allow them to play games and share files with irl friends who lived in the same city much more quickly and with much lower latency than could be achieved through the internet.

Thank you and yes you hit the nail on the head.
Also i never thought about building a Bitcoin server box for the internet of the future just plug it in and start accepting BTC. I think ill get to work on that ASAP.


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Stephen Gornick on December 02, 2012, 04:56:28 AM
Incidentally, there's another recent thread with some overlap:

How do we deal with an internet blackout?
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128702.0


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Anon136 on December 02, 2012, 06:17:02 PM
as stated previously, if you build it i will buy it! (as long as it doesnt cost more than a few hundred dollars to fabricate)


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Mushroomized on December 02, 2012, 07:24:43 PM
This kind of thing, I think I can safely say will be the future of the internet.  ;)


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Anon136 on December 02, 2012, 07:41:21 PM
i was thinking about it a little more and i realized the first really useful thing this service could do is to allow people to stay connected to their home internet with their smart phones/tablets even when they were out of their homes. This would be much cheaper and much faster than a data plan and consumers wouldnt have to pay extra for a phone with 3g functionality. In-order to cover the whole city area pay your friends a profit share in order to get them to allow you to place nodes in their homes.


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Xenland on December 02, 2012, 07:51:44 PM
I think the first issue is no decentralized internet once that protocol is established I can figure out how to make this Bitcoin box. But then again perhaps I should kill two birds with one stone, invent a router that will do the job for decentralized internet.

I've been thinking that the biggest problem is troll-nodes redirecting encrypted packets in the wrong direction how does a decentralized internet prevent this, my only solution is that we get more trusted nodes to relay to LOL. but seriously we need to get this going, I am just about finished with all my projects so my free time will be plentiful in a few months.


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Mushroomized on December 03, 2012, 12:25:01 AM
One idea I had a long time ago and never finished working on worked similar to this- and maybe could be of use. While its not a fully decentralized internet, it would be a good stepping stone.

"Mushroom"
   Stationary device used to send and receive internet access from LAN or WiFi networks.  The mushroom also sends and receives internet access in the form of a radio signal from and to the portable nodes, or "Spores."
Specifications- (% least important # Medium Important * Very Important)
*Ability to connect to LAN networks
%Ability to run from back up battery power
#Near the size of, and able to fit into a pc disk drive
*Run off standard wall outlets
*Ability to output standard unsecured WiFi
*Ability to connect to wireless networks
------
"Spore"
   The portable device that carries signal to other "mushrooms." Sold to consumers, and required to access wifi from a mushroom. A reward system for the network strength you provide would allow for some for of reward in the form of internet access, in a reasonable amount. A single person carrying a spore day to day would be able to access Mushroom WiFi as much as needed, while larger companys that provide a high percentage of the network strength would be rewarded with benefits while using the internet, like priority and possibly more bandwidth(to be decided later).
Specifications- (% least important # Medium Important * Very Important)
* Long battery life, if possible up to two weeks or more
*Portability, near or less than the size of a standard smartphone
#Weatherproof, to advocate stealth nodes
%Nice to look at
*Basic storage for keeping track of node strength overall in the network


Crappy example image - http://i.imgur.com/iuLCY.png

Basically, TLDR; the idea is to create a router that can connect to portable devices, which connect to each other to connect to other router type things.


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Anon136 on December 03, 2012, 12:44:16 PM
I dont think you would need a unique protocol. The user could just use a monti-carlo algorithm to search for the cheapest route between point a and b. It would then test the route and if one of those nodes was a troll or if the bandwidth or latency were to low it would simply test the next cheapest route untill it found a series of suitable nodes. The reason you shouldnt need a unique protocol is that you can imagine pulling out a physical map with the nodes marked on it and looking for the shortest distance then physically connect to the first node then going into the settings on that node to manually forward all of your traffic to the next node ect.. until you get to your destination. Since i could imagine how it could all be done manually the best way would probably just be to design some software for the end user (presumably an android app) that would mimic this process. The difficulty in designing protocols to efficiently transmit data in a mesh network should be solved by the price signals given off by each node.

Of course for the above mentioned to work a map of the network that is as accurate as possible would need to be maintained at all times. So imagine a firm coming into existence to service this market niche, the nodes would send data about nodes adjacent to them to this firm for free since it would be good advertisement and the end user could purchase the maps from this firm. For a new node first connecting to the network it could request a map from an adjacent node that would presumably be out of date but still good enough to find some sort of route (efficient or otherwise) to get that initial connection to the firm that sells more up to date network maps.

The beautiful thing about a market is that you shouldnt need to actually design this software. Each actor can play a very minor role and price signals will bring it all togather into a beautiful system. if you broadcast the wan than there will be an untapped resource just laying around, others should respond to this by designing software because it is in their interest to harass untapped resources. Similarly you shouldnt need to create the map server either since there will be as of yet unclaimed profit to be made in providing that service.

"if you build it they will come"

of course take all this for a grain of salt, im sure as hell not a networking expert im just a guy who loves interesting thought experiments.


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Xenland on December 03, 2012, 04:27:50 PM
Nice ideas, they got my noggin going. I think Anon136 has the right idea, which got me thinking, "If your paying for your service there could be opportunities to create a system where its incentive to help the network is greater than trolling it and wasting your electricity and networking resources".

I'm guessing a business would build their own infrastructure on top of this open system to guarantee their data across the planet, Home users really isn't that vital to the guaranteed data(Except for the safety of others when a WoW game isn't properly saved :P )

So I think for starters I'll focus on home user bitcoin p2p networking and then businesses can invent their own infrastructure on guaranteeing their data across networks (What would be even smarter is Businesses having their own B2B internet which is separate antennas/hard-lines from home users, this could prevent hacks from hitting the main system so easily a "Hacker" would have to gain access to a "watched" business internet-node building which would be more guarded then a home-user internet building)


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Xenland on December 03, 2012, 04:30:26 PM


This is a widely different way to think of P2P Internet, I can already see the potential of rewards


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Mushroomized on December 03, 2012, 04:37:44 PM
It could be based upon an alt coin. You "mine" by downloading and returning junk data generated by the chain from random users. The faster your connection, the stronger, etc the more reward you get. Giving users an incentive to build up network. When you connect to a router, it would require payment in the form of these coins, and redistribute them to other users. Of course you would need to find a way for it to do that, so it can also be secure. IE if the data was "apples" you would want to make sure a user couldnt guess it by sending random data back into the chain.


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Anon136 on December 03, 2012, 05:53:30 PM
Your thinking each node charges a small fee for the volume of data that passes through it and the nodes that supply an internet connection to the network charge a higher fee for data going through it?

yes but if you were using this system in the city that you lived in than you could use the nodes to connect to the land line in your house this would reduce the cost considerably (early on of course eventually the hope is this system wouldnt connect to the internet but rather become/replace the internet). I believe this is being done in a centralized manner already with "http://www.5gmesh.com/about-5g-mesh.html" this acts sort of like a proof of concept demonstrating that it can be affordable and there are good reasons to expect that an open source decentralized version of the same thing relying on bitcoin micro transactions would be cheaper than a centrally planned closed source version of the same thing.


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Anon136 on December 03, 2012, 07:16:38 PM
Could a basic free access system with charges for extra bandwidth be built on that?

you as an individual could do anything you liked with your node but bear in mind that making things free carries its own cost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons)

I was thinking everyone on it would need an account pre-charged with bitcoin to debit and the free access could only be done by having an account which is kind of inconvenient

I imagine that you might load credit on a pgp key you had agreed on for each node. no need for centralization.

a splash page when you connect that informs you what your connected to, offers connection options and just lets you continue to your requested page would be good but I don't see how it could be done.

yea you might need to write custom firmware O.o wayyy beyond my understanding. Im more into economics than computer science.

Also, would it need something like its own credits to be able to use different networks anywhere you go without multiple accounts or could the network and software handle that kind of thing its self?

if the government left the technology alone then there would certainly be pressure towards standardization. For starters any entrepreneurs would probably own multiple nodes each. Then they would stand to benefit from uniting in networks sort of like the machinima network that would allow for customers to pay at one address and get shard credit on many many nodes. Now if the government started trying to attack weaknesses than this would be one of them so you would likely end up paying for credit that you never used in parts of the world that you dont go to often due to minimum transaction limits on bitcoin.


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Mushroomized on December 03, 2012, 08:02:22 PM
Thanks. The free part does add a lot of complication, if accounts are needed then its not a big step to requiring an application to access it. That would be a lot of nodes having no choice but to contribute bandwidth to the network and maybe making some money out of it too, not a lot for most but there would be good spots to farm especially in lower density populations. Maybe tor integration or something like it would also come naturally to it, can't see how that would work with bitcoin payments though.

If you create an alt coin like in my idea, people who cant contribute to the network could buy credit from an exchange (using bitcoin too)


Title: Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
Post by: Mushroomized on December 03, 2012, 08:27:58 PM
Sorry, I missed that. Was thinking something like its own coin too, if an app has to be installed to use it can use whatever protocols it wants. It could also contribute to network security but that could be tricky for battery operated devices, isn't encryption processing of some sort built into wlan devices?
If I remember correctly, WEP keys are. But WEP can be easily broken. Maybe using some adaptation of WPA2 could be used, hah.