Bitcoin Forum

In light of the recent Silk Road controversy, I'd like to up the ante and go a bit further via a thought experiment.

A Tor onion site could be created that would trade assassination bounties instead of home made meth. The idea is clearly enabled by cryptocurency and was anticipated and even embraced by early cryptoanarchists such as Tim May (http://www.cypherpunks.to/faq/cyphernomicron/chapter16.html#16).

This it how it could work:

• Killing bids are accepted for well defined people, for example POTUS or your neighbour
• Bids are cumulated by the market software in a public wallet that can be audited via the blockchain; if many people pledge money, the pot could grow considerably
• Would-be-assassins would write a .txt description of the intended assassination plan that should be as detailed as possible, including date, method etc.
• They would hash this .txt and, before the assassination, publish the hash signed with their wallet private key; the onion site would list all hashes published
• After a successful whack the killer publishes the original .txt description which can be hashed by anyone thus proving that the owner of the wallet is the killer (no other party could have known the details of the murder in advance)
• The bidders would vote if the killer's description is considered adequate, and if the funds are to be released to his wallet; this can be automated via Bitcoin's transaction scripting support
• Alternatively, the onion site could perform the arbitration, while retaining a fee; after a few successful kills it would become a steady revenue stream, thus incentivizing the onion site to do good job during arbitration and protect it's business from competitors

I'm not passing any moral judgements yet and I've tried to describe the topic in an objective manner. What's is your opinion ?

that isnt how assassination markets work at all.   ::)

For anyone not familiar with this concept, please read Assassination Politics (http://www.outpost-of-freedom.com/jimbellap.htm) (in its entirety).

An assassination market such as this requires a few things: Blinded digital currency, public key cryptography, and preferably an anonymizing network such as Tor. Though this latter is optional; in theory this market could be run completely above board, out in the open, on a .com with a Las Vegas storefront, even. With a secretary who moonlights at the Bunny Ranch. But the anonymous currency is not optional.

I've named my description an "assassination bounty" because I think it's the best approximation of what's likely to be implemented using existing technology.
I'm not proposing assassination as a state policy, rather a democratic version that could be used to punish corrupt leaders and noisy neighbours.

If you want to kill someone with bitcoins, you first need to get those bitcoins, normally through money laundering. For examplo you could create or use a webpage like http://spendbitcoins.com/ (http://spendbitcoins.com/) to spend the money on bitcoins. Now you have clean bitcoins to pay. You use tor so they can't trace you, of course. You pay the assasin in bitcoins through clearcoin, the job is done and you are a happy bastard  :D

As I said in my openmarket.org post here:

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12978.0 (http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12978.0)


The "what if bitcoin is used for <insert bad behavior>" argument or hypothetical scenario exists for any action that can be financed by cash. The reason of course, is that bitcoin is the same as cash - with some nice crypto improvements, for starters.

At least on such market the potential victims would see that someone wants to kill them.

Which is exactly why no-one with half a brain would use such markets, unless maybe to intimidate.

It's a neutral side effect of free currency; we can choose to accept it in order to be free ourselves.

Well, like those above me said, it's just a consequence of freedom.  Not to derail this conversation too much, but this gave me an idea for a pie-in-face market.  People could contribute money to pie-bounties of people they'd like to see get a pie in the face.  Then pie-ninjas could perform these tasks. 

This list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_been_pied (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_been_pied) would get a lot longer.  Can someone start working on the art for this market?

I'm pretty sure on any given date there are quite a number of people who would like to see Julian Assange dead, I don't think there's any surprise about that. Maybe even thousands of people willing to pledge a 100$ bill for the job, as I'm sure there are many killers out there who could arrange the assassination of Assange for a few hundred thousand $. Yet Assange lives on, because in the physical world it would be impossible to connect that demand with the supply. You would either be jailed when soliciting the murder, or when picking up the pay.
The proposed Tor + Bitcoin combo connects supply and demand, and if the technologies work as advertised the parties are safe and the payout is certain. What exactly would preclude people with full brains to use it ?


The algorithm I propose does not work with cash for obvious reasons. Can you propose an algorithm that achieves a similar level of privacy based on cash ? Alternatively, can you point to a flaw that would prevent the algorithm to work as proposed ? For it seems without answer to either, cryptocash can indeed enable transactions regular cash can't.


Bringing pie ninjas is a bit of a derailment since pie ninjas are already plausible in our society. It's like arguing that you can make forks and spoons out of HEU that are only slightly more radioactive than depleted uranium ones, so HEU can't be that bad. The real question is if the preponderant use of the technology is the immoral one, not if benign uses are also possible.

I think we're agreeing on the same point - that while bitcoin is similar to cash, it enables transactions that cash can't provide. My point about people arguing *against* bitcoin is, you can apply the same objections to cash transactions. Could I start up some kind of anonymous dead-drop system using cash-filled briefcases and codewords? Sure, it may be more cumbersome but it can be done.

In summary, bitcoin is better than cash even though you can level the same criticisms against both.

Because publicly showing a lot of people want someone killed, ASAP, is likely to get that person to protect themselves, decreasing the odds of success for the assassin.

I think you are ignoring the highly advantageous position the killer has in such a game. Think about the budget of L.H Oswald versus the money spent for Kennedy's protection during his term, it could easily be 1:1000 or 1:10000 yet it still wasn't enough. Basically, the attacker can focus on the weakest link, while the defender must protect all avenues of attack.

It would also make life 100% crappy for the target with a modest budget. Those who pledge the money are assured that Assange can't have any public life or vacation and is pretty much confined to a well guarded secret fortress, Osama stile. The mere threat of such a life can quickly silence unpopular individuals - self-reinforcing mob rule. The pledgers don't even pay the bounty price, just the interest on it; if the bounty is dropped they recover the pledge.


I would argue that both the demand and supply clearly exist. Therefore the absence of such systems is itself evidence they are cumbersome to the point of being impractical when using regular cash. The apparent ease with which the task can be achieved using cryptocash points that we are dealing with a different beast altogether.

Julian Assange would not be accepted for listing on an AP market, as he is not a government employee.

"Assassination market" is a contradiction in terms. Obviously, a murderer does not take into account the will of his victim.

This thread is spooky.

Actually such a site or the business model involved would be a big threat to BTC and TOR etc.

Imagine bounties for
* 10 jews bombed
* a dirty bomb killing at least x people on Berlin
* an A-bomb somewhere.

That directly leads to bounties for
* not setting off said A-bomb: "Country XY put forces together to find the bomb! If by [date] there are x coins on that bounty, I will let you find the bomb." With the said service people would trust that the guy will only get the bounty if he actually has a bomb. Spooky, isn't it?
* not killing hostages: I kidnapped person x.

Send money to address ... to see him alive is clearly easier than to meet in the park to hand over the money. Oh ... how boring all those action movies will get :(

Actually cryptography makes all dirty crimes easier. Of course bounties to kill dictators might again be much easier to be payed by so called democratic states so maybe they see an incentive for such services, too.

I hope such services involving people getting killed will face the moral of enough hackers to take them down individually. Maybe a bounty to take down the bounty site anybody?

Before bitcoin it was fairly easy to pay an assassin.  It still is.  Cash is cash is cash.  Dope, murder, blah blah blah.  It is irrelevant.

I'm a little disappointed that there was no poll option for "it is inevitable, but concerned citizens should do their best to help law enforcement catch anyone involved"

That's how I feel about the Silk Road too, incidentally.

Why would you want to help a bunch of thugs put non-violent people in prison?

If Bitcoin is made illegal, will you do your best to help law enforcement catch Bitcoin users?

you examples are funny cause all the other currencies are already used for:

* get billions of $ worth of oil for killing 100.000+ civilian ppl
* get billions of $ for illegally occupy land that´s, even according to the UN, not yours & oppress the ppl living there

so the things you posted here seem quiet harmless...

As counter examples, imagine bounties for...

* The assassination of Hitler, Gadaffi, or any other tyrant
* The assassination of representatives who vote to curb civil liberties
* The assassination of the owner of a large corporation that violates the rights of others

Are you all fkin serious?

Yes, please, by all means give King Whitehat more reasons to roar into our quiant little utopian fantasy town with a Grade 1.A Thunderfuck....


OP, you do realize that even casually mentioning murdering the President is actionable, right? And considering the level of scrutiny being applied here.. I would be very VERY careful about making such statements so casually, if I were you. In a PUBLIC forum??

Mindbogglingly stupid.

For all the handwringing about Bitcoin's "image problem", this forum and its unrolling archive of casual chat about revolution, assasination, CP, etc etc etc is an absolute goldmine for any anti-BTC PR type with 10 minutes to do a few forum searches..

FFS, irc exists for a reason.

Big Brother IS watching.

Even though I usually always laugh at this kind of paranoid posts, you are right.

It seems some people are forgetting how paranoid the US government is. Even schoolkids have been jailed in the US for making drawings about stabbing a president.
Hell, it's more than likely the NSA has algorithms that detect this type of threads online automatically (even though they would find this is all just hypothetical)

I don't like the "chilling effect" in online discussions, I'm all for discussing even the worst sides of humanity, but please, if you do it on a public forum, draw the line somewhere.

Really, don't give sensationalist reporters the opportunity to claim "bitcoin users planning assassinations and discuss killing head of state" in bold headlines.

I got this one, to disassociate bitcoin with criminal activities. Currently in the public eye BitCoin is an unknown, never heard of it, etc. Our wonderfully paid for senator is trying to paint a picture that BitCoin is a currency exclusively used to pay for activites that are illegal. The picture he's trying to paint would make BitCoin = Criminals in the public eye. He succeeds here in the US, other countries will follow, which hurts BitCoin.

However; if BitCoin adopters leveraging how open BitCoin is help presecuters. Well that leaves people questioning what this BitCoin thing really is. Some people will look into it, others will continue to ignore it's existence. Which is either neutral or good for BitCoin.

Now as supporters of BitCoin we should both discourage it's use for illegal activities as well as promote it's legal uses when possible, we have to paint our own picture BitCoin = Commedity, something of value used in the exchange for goods an services. No more, no less.

(Honestly on non violent crime note, personally I'd rather drugs were legal, put a tax on the drugs, and call it a day. Personally I put people puffing their brains away as no better or worse then the person who destroys their body by poor dietary habits)

I don't know what you are talking about, what president ? Stop that treasonous clatter. I was clearly referring to the delicious medieval beverage, Potus Ypocras (http://www.godecookery.com/goderec/grec41.htm).
As for Assange, now that's a man that deserves to be killed for terrorizing the mighty american army and people. Long live our beloved leader ! Glory to the sleveeless one !

I agree on the fact that some politicians, countries and companies do unjust things involving but not not limited to killing people. The world economic system is plain slavery in my eyes actually (why I suggested to have BTC with a redistribution of 1%/month of all coins to all citizen-accounts). Now the big players have to convince the majority within their society that they are doing things for a better world and any harm is just collateral murder damage.

With an anonymous website and an anonymous currency there would not be the need for such diplomacy. Evil means would be much easier accessible. While the message would be much more honest, the messenger could stay hidden.

Thinking about it I wonder if maybe the "new" way would be worse at all.


I strongly oppose to the position that any murder that is not the result of a legitimate trial is a good thing. For example the assassination of Usāma ibn Lādin was not in any way rightful.
Bounties on the legal defence I would consider a good thing but the risk involved doing it openly would be much lower in almost any case.


hello? is freedom of speech that far already in your country? are you afraid of being sued or even brought to guantánamo over hypothetical discussions of the malicious potential of some new software? maybe it is time for this forum to go underground, too. tor hidden service. invitation only. and don't forget your tin foil hat!!1!

What's this mumbo jumbo about legal/illegal?  Is that like how you're supposed to do what the schoolyard bully says?

I strongly agree with this.  Agorism / market anarchism doesn't give people license to act immorally.  Indeed, people have a duty to prevent infringement on others' rights to life, liberty, and property.


I strongly disagree with this.  Who's the victim here?

http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/apr/19indian.htm


You were saying?
I'm not an idealist. I'm a realist. Take off your rosy glasses and look at the date when this happened. It's been going on for years already.

There is no "pure" freedom of speech. When you cross a line you are going to attract the authorities. I'm not "scared", I just realize the risks unlike you, who lives in a bubbly world with no rules where nobody cares about anything.

I think the assassination market is useful only for public officials. Like the cops who beat rodney king or the other numerous instances of beuraucrats being assholes.

WTF people, are you really talking casually about an assassination market and how you could operate one?
What the hell is wrong with you?

Look, I accept the fact that any anonymizable currency (both bitcoin and fiat notes) can be used for criminal things, there is little I can do about that, and I think the benefits of bitcoin far outweigh the disadvantages.  But you are talking about providing an infrastructure for these things like it is OK.

It's not. Because that's not how it works.

The market wouldn't be set up by the murderer because the murderer wouldn't need to set up a market in the first place. That would be an "extortion market" if anything.
The market is set up by someone who wants someone killed anonymously and without having to deal directly with the murderer, or even know who he is.

Why shouldn't it be OK? Please don't discriminate against people just because you follow an outdated value system.

Agreed. If you really don't like the idea of an assassination market, then just start an "assassination market" assassination market. You'll soon be rid of the assassination market.

Money is money, cash is cash. What you spend it on has nothing to do with what it is itself.

Kick starter for killers?

Monster why you resurrecting old threads?

MASSIVE necro-thread there...   from the days just before the first bubble burst

If I ever find my name in the assassination market list with a good bounty, I would assassinate myself and collect the bounty (sounds like a joke but isn't one)

LOL, read whole thread without realizing it is necro thread, imagined how it can possibly work and be secured similar to Silk Road. And now someone got a perfect plan. Find yourself on the list. Make a text file describing your murder like assassin would. Post it in assassination market and fake your killing. Collect bounty.

Maybe that's why bitcoin was created, in future we will kill eachother for some coins
Like i've said before,, Somebody is winning from that, is classic!

How is this different from other tangible currencies?

Either way, if you know the right people/organization you can put a bounty on someones head.

Not. Bitcoins you can hand over without physically meeting and without an intermediary that might confiscate the money.

Bitcoins are far more easier for this purposes than cash or gold. You can anonymously donate to presidential assassination pool with few clicks without interrupting your masturbation session. It is not possible even with cash.Not much of us know ho to meet such people. Even then it is very dangerous. But if assasination market exists, everyone will know the .onion address. The USA senators and internet censorfags will give free worldwide advertisement for the assassination market when they will discover its existence. Take example Silk Road. How many of You know people who can get you any drug to your door? And how many know Silk Road?

This even better. Too bad NSA have no algorithms for detecting their own idiocy and idiocy of political system in USA. Hope uncompressed BMP will take up some space in the large database. Someone can upscale the resolution to gigapixel and put each pixel slightly different color, then compress using lossless PNG so it cannot be efficiently compressed? We should make more of these drawings as a sign of protest.

http://www.bildites.lv/images/q5nklw087z4yn7drcyd.bmp

This make my day  :D :D ;D

i think that if you've been wanting to hire an assassin and were only waiting for an e-currency to develop before you did so, you're not exactly the committed type...

On the other hand, if you give me enough bitcoins, I can secure your safety, buy you your own island (or if that's too expensive, just a huge compound with 18 foot high walls), and have armed guards.

I did offer that service hypothetically to someone in the newbie forums.

I live in the Philippines, so if you indeed do send me enough bitcoins, I can facilitate the purchase of your own island.

If that's too expensive, I can also set you up in a house inside a gated subdivision or village.

I know enough people in the military and local police, as well as government officials, and we can make everything look legit. I also have several friends in the security industry and they will be happy to get jobs.

You send me bitcoins, I take care of paying those armed guards the local fiat money they prefer. You're anonymous, I'm anonymous, and the guards could care less as long as they're paid. You live a long and peaceful life. Just don't ever expose yourself.

But if you're one of the most wanted terrorists in the world, I'm not sure I can protect you from stealth helicopters crashing into our house in the middle of the night with highly trained soldiers who want you dead.

As reference, I can get you an armed guard for about 5 to 6 bitcoins per month, at today's exchange rate. Make that 10 bitcoins per month if you prefer he be armed with a rifle. 20 bitcoins per month and he's a martial arts master, armed and unarmed, with a track record (in the local MMA scene).