Title: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: TheAlchemist on June 07, 2011, 02:43:26 PM Sources:
1969568.28324 / 6460600 = 30.5% Since (1) is based on the top 100 addresses and one person can own multiple addresses, there are some extremely rich people out there. It cannot be good for ~100 people to own 30% of all Bitcoin... P.S. I'm pretty new at Bitcoin, so please correct me if my math is wrong or I'm mis-understanding something. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: elggawf on June 07, 2011, 02:51:42 PM Why? The Bitcoin economy is still relatively tiny to the rest of the world. I'd be interested in seeing how many of those accounts have done anything at all with their wealth, there's a good potential some of it might be lost forever (if I'd generated several thousand BTC and then deleted it thinking it would never be worth anything, I would take that secret shame to my grave right now).
But regardless of if all those address are still that wealthy and it's all concentrated in at or under 100 people - how's that any different to the USA, where in 2007 the top 1% owned some 42% of the wealth? The difference between Bitcoins and wealth in fiat currency is that it's non-trivial to turn Bitcoins into more Bitcoins... these people are not your masters, so who cares? Most of those incredibly wealthy people are early adopters from when difficulty was incredibly low... good luck to them. They're probably not likely to cash out soon, and if they do they'll likely do it in a way that doesn't destroy the market (reducing their gains) and in the next decade or so their wealth will become a more reasonable fraction of the entire economy. I guess I just don't see this as a huge issue, beyond natural envy. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: Timo Y on June 07, 2011, 02:52:22 PM It cannot be good for ~100 people to own 30% of all Bitcoins... Why not? Most of those people are passionate about Bitcoin, and will do everything in their power to make it succeed. If they become super-wealthy we will stand a chance against the old wealthy elites who will try to fight Bitcoin. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: Alex Beckenham on June 07, 2011, 02:53:16 PM one person can own multiple addresses Don't forget: One address can be owned by multiple people. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: TheAlchemist on June 07, 2011, 02:55:25 PM Don't forget: One address can be owned by multiple people. Would you mind explaining that one? Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: Findeton on June 07, 2011, 02:56:24 PM Sources:
1969568.28324 / 6460600 = 30.5% Since (1) is based on the top 100 addresses and one person can own multiple addresses, there are some extremely wealthy individuals out there. It cannot be good for ~100 people to own 30% of all Bitcoins... P.S. I'm pretty new at Bitcoin stuff, so please correct me if my math is wrong or I'm mis-understanding something. If you want to change that, make them a good offer. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: Jack of Diamonds on June 07, 2011, 02:57:49 PM Don't forget: One address can be owned by multiple people. Would you mind explaining that one? They could be reserve wallets of large exchangers like MtGox etc. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: Alex Beckenham on June 07, 2011, 02:59:22 PM Don't forget: One address can be owned by multiple people. Would you mind explaining that one? They could be reserve wallets of large exchangers like MtGox etc. Yep, or it could be as simple as my brother and I working as a team. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: jerfelix on June 07, 2011, 02:59:52 PM Since (1) is based on the top 100 addresses and one person can own multiple addresses, there are some extremely wealthy individuals out there. The 3rd highest is only $1.3M in wealth. #4 through 100 are lower than that. Not sure where "$1.3M" is "extremely wealthy", but it sure isn't here in the US. (not that $1.3M isn't a lot of money, but "extremely" wealthy. naaaah.) Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: Alex Beckenham on June 07, 2011, 03:01:26 PM Not sure where "$1.3M" is "extremely wealthy", but it sure isn't here in the US. Maybe in US highschools and universities... Bitcoin community is a young crowd, no? Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: unemployed on June 07, 2011, 03:22:13 PM It cannot be good for ~100 people to own 30% of all Bitcoins... Support the newly founded Bitcoin Communist Party. We call for honest redistribution of bitcoins. http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=10824.0 For justice and profit! Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: BubbleBoy on June 07, 2011, 03:29:47 PM 1969568.28324 / 6460600 = 30.5% I'd say the disparity is much higher. Probably the correct distribution is that less than 10 people own more than 50% of the money supply, and less than 100 own more than 90%. You can infer this from the popularity graph of bitcoin.org, that nicely matches the hash rate: http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/bitcoin.org http://bitcoin.sipa.be During 2009 and the first part of 2010 half of existing bitcoins were mined at hash rates bellow 0.01 Ghash/s - a few desktop computers. There is absolutely no point in arguing about the largest wallet size - an owner can have many wallets. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: TraderTimm on June 07, 2011, 03:32:02 PM Support the newly founded Bitcoin Communist Party. We call for honest redistribution of bitcoins. http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=10824.0 For justice and profit! I suggest you start with an act of good faith and give me all of your bitcoin balance. After all, if you can't be bothered to back your philosophy with actions, then what good is it? I eagerly await your contribution. Update: Still nothing sent to my bitcoin address below, I guess he's all talk... Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: TheAlchemist on June 07, 2011, 03:33:00 PM Why not? Most of those people are passionate about Bitcoin, and will do everything in their power to make it succeed. If they become super-wealthy we will stand a chance against the old wealthy elites who will try to fight Bitcoin. I wasn't thinking of this from a "wealth" perspective but that about health of a network. While the majority of large Bitcoin owners will want to investing in the security of the Bitcoin network, my concern is potential for manipulation of the market. A few bad apples could spoil it for all of us, IMHO. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: cypherdoc on June 07, 2011, 03:37:35 PM one person can own multiple addresses Don't forget: One address can be owned by multiple people. how can that be true? Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: Alex Beckenham on June 07, 2011, 03:39:13 PM one person can own multiple addresses Don't forget: One address can be owned by multiple people. how can that be true? Scroll up. Don't forget: One address can be owned by multiple people. Would you mind explaining that one?Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: rezin777 on June 07, 2011, 03:39:39 PM While the majority of the those large Bitcoin owners will want to invest in the security of the Bitcoin network, my concern is with the potential for manipulation of the market. A few bad apples could spoil it for all of us, IMHO. How? Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: Jaime Frontero on June 07, 2011, 03:55:07 PM Sources:
1969568.28324 / 6460600 = 30.5% Since (1) is based on the top 100 addresses and one person can own multiple addresses, there are some extremely wealthy individuals out there. It cannot be good for ~100 people to own 30% of all Bitcoins... P.S. I'm pretty new at Bitcoin stuff, so please correct me if my math is wrong or I'm mis-understanding something. yes. you are mis-understanding something. the opportunity which you perceive - to own Bitcoin, to profit from them, and to use a currency with all of the advantages Bitcoin has and none of the disadvantages of government-controlled fiat currency - is the direct result of those 100 people taking the first steps on the path to an intelligent form of money. without them - without their willingness to take which was, at the time, an incredible risk - none of us would have anything. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: rezin777 on June 07, 2011, 04:07:08 PM I want to continue to talk with you, but since you don't want to elaborate, I would be refuting my own assumptions. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: rezin777 on June 07, 2011, 04:09:52 PM without them - without their willingness to take which was, at the time, an incredible risk - none of us would have anything. an "incredible risk" to use some cpu time to generate coins? Yet there is "zero risk" of the now-disappeared satoshi of simply buying up all the asks when he feels it has been a profitable enough project for him? I think you need to re-evaluate your definition of risk. Whether you consider it risk or not, they were necessary. Would you be looking at Bitcoin right now if it was only trading for .001 USD and there were a grand total of 2 websites that mention it? Probably not. And if you would be, you would be an early adopter, and people like you would be complaining about people like you simply because you saw a worthwhile project and decided to invest your time into it. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: Jaime Frontero on June 07, 2011, 04:13:05 PM without them - without their willingness to take which was, at the time, an incredible risk - none of us would have anything. an "incredible risk" to use some cpu time to generate coins? Yet there is "zero risk" of the now-disappeared satoshi of simply buying up all the asks when he feels it has been a profitable enough project for him? I think you need to re-evaluate your definition of risk. thank you, but i'm quite happy with my definition of risk - which in this case would be the high probability of losing everything one owns. but perhaps Bitcoin is not for you. have you considered naked shorts on credit default-swap futures? Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: rezin777 on June 07, 2011, 04:19:36 PM Would you be looking at Bitcoin right now if it was only trading for .001 USD and there were a grand total of 2 websites that mention it? Probably not. No, it was necessary to hook, line, and sinker a gullible public into a modern day ponzi scheme. Ponzi shemes have public exchanges? Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: theboos on June 07, 2011, 04:24:06 PM I honestly don't see the problem with this. Obviously I'd prefer to have more Bitcoins than Alice or Bob and I'm naturally a bit envious of the early adopters who now are worth significantly more than the rest of us. So what? They took risk by buying bitcoins with no guarantees of future value. I took a (significantly) smaller risk by mining in the last few months and have gotten a significantly smaller return. I'd suggest that they use some of their Bitcoins to purchase items to strengthen the value of Bitcoin, but I can understand why they don't. Hoarding (temporarily taking currency out of circulation) isn't a huge problem because it slightly increases the value of the Bitcoins in circulation. Even if the Bitcoins are sold eventually at a high price, that also means that someone has to be buying at the same price, who might spend them. Alternately, if the hoarders wait until Bitcoin is worth $1000 and then buy a lifetime supply of pizza for a few Bitcoins, they still strengthen their value.
Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: rezin777 on June 07, 2011, 04:26:13 PM Ask another worthless question to avoid the issue? The issue? I thought we were discussing early adopters. You are suggesting Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. I would like you to prove it. This is central to the issue. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: Jaime Frontero on June 07, 2011, 04:27:34 PM Ask another worthless question to avoid the issue? that was an excellent one... Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: Jaime Frontero on June 07, 2011, 04:39:32 PM and I'm naturally a bit envious of the early adopters who now are worth significantly more than the rest of us. So what? They took risk by buying bitcoins with no guarantees of future value. I took a (significantly) smaller risk by mining in the last few months and have gotten a significantly smaller return. You mention they took a risk by buying early on, yet you took less risk by mining later on. Except they didn't buy, they mined at 1/100,000th the difficulty. There is quite a difference. Quote I'd suggest that they use some of their Bitcoins to purchase items to strengthen the value of Bitcoin, but I can understand why they don't. Hoarding (temporarily taking currency out of circulation) isn't a huge problem because it slightly increases the value of the Bitcoins in circulation. Of course it's not a problem. It was intended from the start. Otherwise why would the original adopters have not spent ANY bitcoins? Perhaps it's because it's one of the 8 or 20 different ways they built into the system to artificially drive up scarcity, and thus the price? "There's a GPU in every computer that can do these calculations orders of magnitudes faster than CPUs? I had no idea. :blush:" The issue? I thought we were discussing early adopters. You are suggesting Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. I would like you to prove it. This is central to the issue. We are not discussing early adopters. We are discussing the power over the economy the early adopters have. The information to prove that is self-evident. The question is simply if, or when, they will use it. Absolute power corrupts and all that jazz. ah. the 'Gish Gallop'. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: rezin777 on June 07, 2011, 04:50:56 PM We are not discussing early adopters. We are discussing the power over the economy the early adopters have. The information to prove that is self-evident. The question is simply if, or when, they will use it. Absolute power corrupts and all that jazz. Power over a market and ponzi scheme are not the same thing. And again, I ask: what do you mean by "use it"? Am I correct that you are suggesting they would dump a load of coins on market for whatever the market will bear? (I don't know why you insist I assume things when it's so simple to tell me.) Err... their power isn't even close to absolute. They can try to sell their coins for whatever someone is willing to pay. Have you considered that large wallets may already be factored into the price? I mean, it's public knowledge. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: Jaime Frontero on June 07, 2011, 05:07:34 PM ah. the 'Gish Gallop'. Argument: The early adopters (depending on your definition) control 30-50% of the entire economy You: Prove it Argument: There are several subtle and not-so-subtle designs in the system that drive up the scarcity of bitcoins You: Prove it Argument: Any one of the early adopters, at any time, could choose to buy up everything available and crash the market You: Prove it You: Buy bitcoins, look at the returns on investment!! SOLID BUY!! LOLL!!!! Quote Argument: The early adopters (depending on your definition) control 30-50% of the entire economy so what? five banks control 90% of the entire worlds' economies. and early adopters don't 'control' any part of the economy other than through those bitcoin-based businesses they own. Quote Argument: There are several subtle and not-so-subtle designs in the system that drive up the scarcity of bitcoins and? (n.b.: investigate the meaning of 'level playing field') Quote Argument: Any one of the early adopters, at any time, could choose to buy up everything available and crash the market how does one crash a market by buying everything available that's offered for sale in it? and how do 'early adopters' use their bitcoin to buy bitcoin? you're an idiot. or a paid troll. probably both. have a nice day. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: nuggets4all on June 07, 2011, 05:17:29 PM People who yell "Ponzi scheme!" clearly have no understanding of what a Ponzi scheme is. A Ponzi scheme involves one or a few people at the top of a pyramid selling shares in a fraudulent "investment." With Bitcoin, anyone can create some and sell them. Unlike shares in a Ponzi scheme, Bitcoins represent something of actual value: an increasingly popular medium of exchange.
Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: rezin777 on June 07, 2011, 05:26:25 PM If you and others with a vested interest say so, then it must be true. I love the definition on the wiki of a ponzi scheme: So give me your definition of a ponzi scheme. :coy: :shy: yes you got me. That is what I was so cleverly intimating even though I said it a few posts prior to someone else. You mean where you said: Or, more likely, you just stand to lose all of your "money" Oh right, because if someone sells a bunch of Bitcoins to other people who are willing to pay for them, Bitcoins will be worth nothing! Imagine 10 years from now and mining gives 12.5BTC among the 100,000 users that are desperate to earn them. BTC is $1000 per coin, and there is a volume of 500,000 asks for around that price. Satoshi uses 1/5th, that's right 1/5th of wallet numero uno to buy the entire market, make $500,000,000, and BTC becomes worthless. "But, gosh, that could never happen, satoshi believes in BTC and that's why he spends so much time on the forums discussing the future of BTC." OK, still don't see the problem. Do you fear rich people or free markets or what? You are worried about Bitcoins dropping in value in comparison to the USD because someone has the potential to sell a lot of them? Don't invest in Bitcoins. Pretty easy fix there. If it's public knowledge, why isn't it in the wiki? In fact, the wiki is almost intentionally misleading: I don't know, I didn't write the wiki. Nor would I use it as a sole means of information to decide if I should invest in a new currency. I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone else do that either. Why don't you fix it so that it isn't almost intentionally misleading anymore? Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: MoonShadow on June 07, 2011, 05:45:27 PM People who yell "Ponzi scheme!" clearly have no understanding of what a Ponzi scheme is. Clearly. This is a "bitcoin scheme!" Just because the variables are tweaked doesn't mean the end game isn't the same. Clearly, indeed. You and your bearish compatriots should tell this to the many other forums, warning others from bidding up; uh, I mean from buying bitcoins. I guess I'll just have to take that risk, myself! Oh, the burden of being an advocate! Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: Maged on June 07, 2011, 05:46:58 PM and I'm naturally a bit envious of the early adopters who now are worth significantly more than the rest of us. So what? They took risk by buying bitcoins with no guarantees of future value. I took a (significantly) smaller risk by mining in the last few months and have gotten a significantly smaller return. You mention they took a risk by buying early on, yet you took less risk by mining later on. Except they didn't buy, they mined at 1/100,000th the difficulty. There is quite a difference. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: rezin777 on June 07, 2011, 05:49:01 PM You know that whole artificial scarcity thing I talked about? It kinda ties into that if you are paying attention. What more do you want. The information is public. I suggest anyone planning on investing in anything do some research or be prepared for a massive slap in the face (and wallet). No, I am worried about bitcoins dropping in value in comparison to the USD because someone has the potential to sell a lot of them that are worthless. The effort and energy required to make 1BTC is 100,000x more than it was a year and a half ago. Yet those BTC from a year and a half ago are "worth" 100,000x more. And this of course only will grow if BTC becomes more popular and computer hardware becomes more powerful. Again, they aren't worthless. Without them we wouldn't be where we are today. If you can't understand the importance and value of the early adopters, we might as well stop talking. But in the mean time, you and others will do your best to convince those less savvy that bitcoin is built on a solid foundation and it is a good buy, won't you? No, why would you say that? I'm trying to tell you that if you are nervous about people holding a large amount of Bitcoins, don't buy Bitcoins! I would tell anyone the same thing! What more do you want? Value is subjective. Nothing is solid. Diversification is key. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: theymos on June 07, 2011, 06:35:48 PM The number has decreased a bit since then. The current number is 1,955,255.34766447 BTC controlled by the top 100 addresses.
Code: hash160 | balance Perhaps a more interesting figure is that 48924 generations are unspent. Three-fourths of these are before block #70,000. I can provide a complete list if someone wants to make a nice graph. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: TraderTimm on June 07, 2011, 06:37:26 PM I understand their importance. But if this were actually a cavalier venture into developing an open source cryptocurrency, they could have simply asked for donations instead of building in a pyramid of wealth and declaring it a matter of deflationary economics. Seriously, what is the deal with satoshi's disappearance? He/She probably wanted some peace from shrill alarmists until the system proved itself. That, and not being a visible target when governments finally figure out that they've been rooted to the core. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: rezin777 on June 07, 2011, 06:49:30 PM Just doing my part so that it is more obvious than not. Fair enough. But you are also being dishonest when you suggest Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. I don't understand how a voluntary, p2p, decentralized, open source, digital currency project that has a complete and total history of transactions and is openly traded on public exchanges could possibly be misconstrued as a ponzi scheme. Anyone who does is either ignorant or dishonest (perhaps both). I don't care how many people enthusiastically promote it. I understand their importance. But if this were actually a cavalier venture into developing an open source cryptocurrency, they could have simply asked for donations instead of building in a pyramid of wealth and declaring it a matter of deflationary economics. Seriously, what is the deal with satoshi's disappearance? Huh? I use Bitcoin because of it's properties (early adopters and all). If it were something else, I wouldn't use it. Quote No, why would you say that? I'm trying to tell you that if you are nervous about people holding a large amount of Bitcoins, don't buy Bitcoins! I would tell anyone the same thing! What more do you want? Value is subjective. Nothing is solid. Diversification is key. While the majority of the those large Bitcoin owners will want to invest in the security of the Bitcoin network, my concern is with the potential for manipulation of the market. A few bad apples could spoil it for all of us, IMHO. How? Uhh... OK? Are you suggesting that by asking you to elaborate on what potential you see for manipulation of the market that I was convincing a less savvy person that Bitcoin is built on solid foundations and a good buy? That's quite a stretch. Bitcoin is a good buy for me because it has properties that I value quite a lot. It's up to you to determine whether Bitcoin is a good buy for you or not. Title: Re: is it true? 30% of all Bitcoins owned by at most 100 people? Post by: Wattda on January 20, 2018, 04:03:26 PM How come no one talks about this?
The number has decreased a bit since then. The current number is 1,955,255.34766447 BTC controlled by the top 100 addresses. Code: hash160 | balance Perhaps a more interesting figure is that 48924 generations are unspent. Three-fourths of these are before block #70,000. I can provide a complete list if someone wants to make a nice graph. |